Yes - Or how I stop worrying about new music

The entire title is "Yes - Or how I stop worrying about new music and love the band", but it didn´t fit...

Now, first of all, what I´m about to say is nothing new and I don´t intend it to be taken as such. Having said that, let´s move on...


Having acquired Magnification (finally), Yes´s last studio album, I now understand what it is that makes modern Yes (let´s pretend Magnification was released receantly jejeje) so much less appealing to fans. First of all I can´t understand reviews that say with Magnification, and The Ladder, they got back to their roots (yet obviously not as good). Those who say this is in the style they left off in Tormato... I just can´t see to agree with them. For me these albums have much more to do with everything they have been doing since the ´80, just better and probably more progressive but not in the same cathegory as their ´70 albums. But I don´t want Close to the edge 2, I welcome change (after all I am prog fan), but something is obviously missing... and no, it´s not the level of compositions, these guys can still make killer arrangements, solos, and what not... but the edge they had is lost, and I think I know what that edge is, or at least for me. It´s basically two things and these are related to the founding members, I mean of course Chris Squire and Jon Anderson. Let´s start with Squire. All the ´70 albums, specially The Yes album and Fragil, had Squire´s bass as the very core of the song, it was not just a bass that connected the drums with the guitars, it was a solo instrument leading the song, it was the main force of the band. But now Squire seems to be more confortable being in the background, not doing much. In fact I can also put White in this cathegory. Although obviously not a Bruford, he did do a fine job in Tales, Relayer (specially in Relayer) and Going for the one. Now he also just seems not willing to try anything out of the ordinary, just keeping pace (and with a sort of annoying sound also, if you ask me, too... ´80...). Wny is that? Are they really that tired? Are they more confortable with this simpler, repetetive style? It must be, I guess... That interesting rhythm section is now completly gone, apparently never to be seen again. But maybe the biggest reason why modern Yes does not have the edge they once had... is that their new output has completly lost all mistisims (that´s not how you write that, right?)... and that´s because of Anderson. His lyrics just got too... loving. Now everything is about love, no more unintelligible lyrics which let you make up your own stories and meaning, no more trying to find out what it is that can mean or if it actually means anything. Now it´s... well, all too simple for my taste. And it´s pretty much always the same... love. I think enough is enough. Even my favorite song from Magnification, Give love each day, suffers from it... it even has the freaking word in the title!!! It seems also Anderson stoped his more spiritual searching lyrics. Someone once, in this forum, said something about this being because in the ´70 Anderson was still in the look out to his real beliefs and has now found it. Damn, I really wished that wasn´t the case, but it does make sense. And to be honest... Yes has gotten cheesy, which, at least in my eyes, they weren´t before. This is the main problem I have with modern Yes. It´s not that they don´t write long epics anymore, but the fact that they let pop get the better of them and became in a... very good Prop band (Porg pop) but not what they once were. And again, I do welcome change, and I woulnd´t mind if they went as pop as they did but as long as they don´t lose that edge they had, that mistery to them, that thing that separated them from just being a virtuoso band to being a band with an extra flavour. I also believe that this is what most copy Yes bands never got to have. This was purerly Anderson if you ask me. He had a way of singing those words that, for me at least, produced a feeling not easy to discribe... it wasn´t just joy, or sadness, or melancholy or whatever, it was always something in between, something that can´t be put to words... but not it seems they are just happy all the time. Well, not all the time, but my point is that I don´t get that un-descrivable feeling from them, not anymore. Now I know exacly what it is... shame. I really do think this is it, at least for me. And this by far the hardest thing to get back...


Also, and this is kinda off topic. Don´t you ever wonder why Yes never shook their pop off? I mean, their fans pretty much don´t like it, right? So why do they persist in writting in this style, even though it melts with a more progressive sound also? Why do they go so against fans? Is it because they simply don´t care what the fans think and write the music they like? If so, then I accept it. But it´s still strange that they really don´t seem to say "Oh f**k it, let´s give them what they want" for I am sure it would benefit them... because, at the same time, I can´t seem to accept that they are all that confortable being a pop band. Maybe ´70 Yes wasn´t real Yes, and this is the real Yes... maybe they don´t feel like they did in the ´70 about that type of music... but I don´t get it. Whenever they tour they pretty much play 90% from The Yes album - Going for the one period, so why don´t they keep making songs in a similar fashion? If they are clearly giving the fans what they want live and know that their fans don´t really accept their new sound all that much (for they never seem to play their new stuff, even when they promoted a new album that much) why do they keep on making that type of music in studio?... strange, don´t you think?


Having said all this I do enjoy modern Yes quite a bit, I think Keystudio, The Ladder and Magnification are all very solid 3 star albums, but not nearly as much as I enjoy their old sound, and it´s not that they have worn themself out, I really do think it´s because they lost their edge...

Oh, please do discuss

Epignosis wrote: From what I can tell, I couldn't disagree with your assessment more. You claim you want change, but you seem dissatisfied with the change Yes took.  Yes can't please everyone all the time, and nor should they try.  I genuinely believe they craft the songs they want to write- sure on one level they hope to please fans, but come on: One (small but important) thing that distinguishes progressive from mainstream music is that the artists craft music with little or no mind toward whether or not it will be profitable or well-received.  I find it strange that in one post you call Yes "pop" but claim that they aren't giving people what they want- pop bands tend to seek to please the masses. Perhaps you do not understand what "pop" music is.  It is distinct from "popular;" from Wikipedia: "The standard format of pop music is the song, customarily less than five minutes in duration, with instrumentation that can range from an orchestra to a lone singer. Pop songs are generally marked by a consistent and noticeable rhythmic element, a mainstream style and traditional structure. Common variants are the verse-chorus form and the thirty-two-bar form, with a focus on melodies and catchy hooks, and a chorus that contrasts melodically, rhythmically and harmonically with the verse.[3] Lyrics in pop music are frequently about love, relationships and life experiences. The primary objectives of the pop music genre are audience enjoyment and commercial success.[4] This of course does not imply that those goals are achieved by every song in this genre.[5]" Now, there are a few tracks on The Ladder and Magnification that for the most part fit this description, but come now: Most of the songs are excellently-crafted progressive rock tracks, and a pop song or two is a staple of most Yes albums (the big three- Close to the Edge, Tales from Topographic Oceans, and Relayer are certainly exceptions).  "Wonderous Stories," "Long Distance Runaround," "Onward," "Don't Kill the Whale," and "I've Seen All Good People" are pop songs on classic Yes albums from the 1970s.  So either you do not understand what makes a song "pop," or you are simply biased towards the 1970s sound. Chris Squire's bass may be in a more supportive role (as opposed to a lead role), but so what?  Again, you say you welcome change, but it sounds like you want things to stay the same.    Besides, there are plenty of moments when he chugs along- tracks like "Lightning Strikes" (what a short but powerful bass solo!), "Face to Face," "The Messenger," just to name three off The Ladder. You say: el böthy wrote: It seems also Anderson stoped his more spiritual searching lyrics. Someone once, in this forum, said something about this being because in the ´70 Anderson was still in the look out to his real beliefs and has now found it. Damn, I really wished that wasn´t the case, but it does make sense. I must say, that sounds rather selfish.  Do you mean to say that you wish Anderson were still questioning his spirituality in order to write lyrics that please you?  Sorry, but your whole post was self-contradictory.  You claim you welcome change, yet you argue that Yes should be more like they were in the 1970s.

First of all I don´t ask Anderson to question his spiritual beliefs, I just say I found his music much more interesting when he did and that´s a shame for me as a listener that he stoped doing it. Of course I´m being selfish, I want better music. I know it sounds very a****le like from me but it´s true. I´m not gonna make anything to change Anderson´s beliefs (nor could I...) cause I´m not that much of a tool, but if you ask me, yes, I´d rather have him make music the way he used to. It´s like when people say "X artist was better when he was on drugs, now that he is clean he sucks"...mmm, ok, on a purely selfish "I want my music" basis... let´s give him some drugs.

Second not any change is good. You critizes me for being cotradictory for saying I welcome change but complaining about what they are doing now. That´s kinda narrow minded, there are hundreds of other ways to make music. I don´t have to be conformed. And I say they should mantain the edge of the ´70, not necesarly the sound.

I know a lot of people won´t agree, but let´s keep it polite.

This is strictly polite, el- I wouldn't have it any other way.  I'll respond later when I have more time.

All right el bothy- just up front I want to point out that I want our discussion to be as polite as possible, and my response to you was nothing but polite, but it was also straightforward (sorry I don't use a plethora of smileys to keep things light).  It was the politest way to say "I think you're being selfish and contradictory" when it comes to Yes- not going to apologize for saying so, but you asked for discussion regarding what you posted, and I read it twice very carefully before responding.  I just prefer to be candid.

That said, note these two statements you made:

el böthy wrote: but if you ask me, yes, I´d rather have him make music the way he used to.

el böthy wrote: Second not any change is good. You critizes me for being cotradictory for saying I welcome change but complaining about what they are doing now. That´s kinda narrow minded, there are hundreds of other ways to make music. I don´t have to be conformed. And I say they should mantain the edge of the ´70, not necesarly the sound.

Now not all change is good, I would agree.  But you claim you want Yes (Anderson in particular) to write the way he used to, and you also state "they should maintain the edge of the '70;" don't you consider that narrow-minded?  You note that there are hundreds of ways to make music, and that you don't "have to be conformed."  And yet, you want them to write the way they used to and "maintain the edge?"

Speaking of "edge," just what do you mean by that?  It sounds like a rather vague term.

Look at Topographic Oceans: That must have taken practically everything they had, and they've been getting kicked in the nuts for it ever since.

el böthy wrote: Yes, I know, it´s prety hard to put into words. What I mean is pretty much the type of weirdness they had if you will, with Jon´s strange lyrics and a sense of curiosity also, It seems he had something to say (even though his lyrics don´t really amount to a lot jejeje) or at least so would it seem by his singing. I listen to Close to the edge, I listen to Tales, I listen to Going for the one and I feel like Anderson is trying to get something thru, something which he wants let me know, something not very simple to understand, but rather to feel... I don´t get that with modern Yes. Maybe it´s just me. Now everything is simpler, more direct but not more urgent, quite the opposite. I think I said it as good as I can, if it´s yet not clear I don´t think I can make it anymore clearer.

I can certainly understand your pining for more music closer to what the band has done in their glory days, but for the most part, those days are gone, and we as fans have no choice but to live with that.

This is mostly because the band members are different people, largely for being much older- they're grandparents now, and I suspect a lot of that esoteric mysticism they dabbled in during the Tales sessions no longer holds much interest to men with failing health (two canceled tours in the span of about a year), retiring members, and the advent of the digital market.

Honestly, I waver between granting The Ladder and Magnification four or five stars- they are both amazing albums, and I couldn't ask for more, even if the lyrics are a little The Flower Kings-ish.

That said, I think Anderson's lyrics are almost just as good as they were on classic albums, only not on every song.  Sure, "Don't Go" or "If Only You Knew" are on the cheesy side a tad bit, but check out the masterful lyrics of "Homeworld," "Face to Face," "Magnification," "We Agree," or "In the Presence of," just to name five.  I think these are some well-crafted words very close to the mystical nature of lyrics on earlier albums.

Now if Walsh and Livgren can just put another one out there...

Nov wrote:   I grew up with Yes but stopped worrying about them when I fell asleep at a Yes gig at Hammersmith Odeon in 1980.   My advice? Just enjoy the amazing albums they released before 1978 and if you want some fantastic new music roughly in the same vein then just listen to The Flower Kings who (for me) are every bit as good as 70s Yes.   Easy

Thanks, but I really don´t like The Flower Kings... way too cheesy for me, still a band I respect a lot.

el böthy wrote: Nov wrote:   I grew up with Yes but stopped worrying about them when I fell asleep at a Yes gig at Hammersmith Odeon in 1980.   My advice? Just enjoy the amazing albums they released before 1978 and if you want some fantastic new music roughly in the same vein then just listen to The Flower Kings who (for me) are every bit as good as 70s Yes.   Easy     Thanks, but I really don´t like The Flower Kings... way too cheesy for me, still a band I respect a lot.

Nov wrote: el böthy wrote: Nov wrote:   I grew up with Yes but stopped worrying about them when I fell asleep at a Yes gig at Hammersmith Odeon in 1980.   My advice? Just enjoy the amazing albums they released before 1978 and if you want some fantastic new music roughly in the same vein then just listen to The Flower Kings who (for me) are every bit as good as 70s Yes.   Easy     Thanks, but I really don´t like The Flower Kings... way too cheesy for me, still a band I respect a lot.   Fair enough but if The Flower Kings are "cheesy" then that just makes Yes mature cheese

Yeah, but mature cheese is soooooo much more tastier. And I'm not referring to the calling of a band cheesy. I'm actually talking about real cheese. God, I love the stuff.