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Topic ClosedThe "Metallica for Prog Related" Poll
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Poll Question: Iron Maiden are here - in that light, do Metallica also qualify?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
17 [44.74%]
21 [55.26%]
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 18 2008 at 03:24
A very simple poll ... just one thing to keep in mind: For each band their most progressive output should be considered. So if you don't know the discographies too well - especially their 80s phases - maybe you should postpone your vote until you do.Smile

Edit: Why did I call this poll "sane"? An outdated question ... I changed the name again, because I never was too happy about the word, I didn't mean to imply that the previous polls were "insane". Well, no offense to those previous polls, but I think that in order to see where people stand on the subject, we should try to be very specific. So this poll is about whether or not Metallica could be added to prog-related, keeping in mind that Iron Maiden (and Avantasia, for that matter) have already been accepted. Removing Iron Maiden is not an option, so we can either reject Metallica, or add them as prog related. This has officially been rejected by M@x and the admin team, and while I respect this addition I believe that there is more support for this addition than was apparent back when the decision was made. So ... maybe they will change their mind ... or not. Leave it in their lap!Big%20smile


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - August 19 2008 at 12:30
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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 03:27
Hehe, Mike knows I've listened to Metallica's first four albums inside out backwards.
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Points: 19232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 03:54
I thought that M@x wasn't keen on the idea of Metallica being added to PA...in which case, isn't this exercise academic??....Ermm
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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 04:05
^
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:


 So this poll is about whether or not Metallica could be added to prog-related, keeping in mind that Iron Maiden (and Avantasia, for that matter) have already been accepted.


Notice "could" , he didn't say should.
Indeed, M@x might not be keen on the idea, but that doesn't exactly speak of the opinions of others such as myself, MikeEnRegalia et al does it?

It would be nice of this poll could just run a nice course and see how it pans out, please.


Edited by HughesJB4 - August 18 2008 at 04:07
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 04:13
No prizes for guessing which I voted - but in case you missed it in the other thread, here's an illuminating interview with Lars which dates from around 1988 (I remembered seeing the whole interview on TV at the time, and good old YouTube has the exact clip I wanted! The interesting bit is about 3 minutes into the interview); http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXxq4hAbhLg
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Points: 1170 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 04:23
Metallica are as least as prog-related as Iron Maiden

IE it's such a stretch that neither should be here, in my opinion.
http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 05:27
Originally posted by fandango fandango wrote:

I thought that M@x wasn't keen on the idea of Metallica being added to PA...in which case, isn't this exercise academic??....Ermm


Back when Iron Maiden were added, Metallica were rejected. But that doesn't mean that this decision is carved in stone ... and even if they never get added, we can still indulge in this academic exercise ... after all, we're here to discuss music.Big%20smile
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 05:48
for me.... I hold out hope that M@X will see the light so to speak and change his mind.. .and trust his people on the site.  Trust is a two way street.  If he was to be accepted.. it would be  for a damn good reason... not because they were someone's favorite group. 

Edited by micky - August 18 2008 at 05:49
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Points: 782 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 06:11
Of course they are. Far more, in my opinion.
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Points: 19232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 06:59
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by fandango fandango wrote:

I thought that M@x wasn't keen on the idea of Metallica being added to PA...in which case, isn't this exercise academic??....Ermm


Back when Iron Maiden were added, Metallica were rejected. But that doesn't mean that this decision is carved in stone ... and even if they never get added, we can still indulge in this academic exercise ... after all, we're here to discuss music.Big%20smile
 
That's a fair point, Mike....Smile
 
as a matter of interest, when Metallica were initially rejected at this time, was it on the grounds that Iron Maiden's 'naughties' output has been moving in a steadily more progressive direction than Metallica's, or because if Metallica were to be added, it would open the gates for a whole raft of other thrash bands with progressive overtones??
 
Just curious...Embarrassed
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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 07:26
Originally posted by fandango fandango wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by fandango fandango wrote:

I thought that M@x wasn't keen on the idea of Metallica being added to PA...in which case, isn't this exercise academic??....Ermm


Back when Iron Maiden were added, Metallica were rejected. But that doesn't mean that this decision is carved in stone ... and even if they never get added, we can still indulge in this academic exercise ... after all, we're here to discuss music.Big%20smile
 
That's a fair point, Mike....Smile
 
as a matter of interest, when Metallica were initially rejected at this time, was it on the grounds that Iron Maiden's 'naughties' output has been moving in a steadily more progressive direction than Metallica's, or because if Metallica were to be added, it would open the gates for a whole raft of other thrash bands with progressive overtones??
 
Just curious...Embarrassed



Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

The point made by Cert in the older thread

Metallica were at the forefront, and "Master Of Puppets" was the very first of its kind - there was nothing like it before, or even at the time. Anyone that knows their metal history, as Cert does, would definitely agree with this point.  AJFA was easily more progressive than what most of the metal scene, let alone thrash metal, were doing at the time.

Exodus: Concentrated on riffs As did Megadeth really and not a prog trait obviously

Slayer: Absolutely revolutionary, but confined to the narrow area they chose to explore - and it's a good job they did, because they were/are fantastic at what they do. "Reign in Blood" is still a benchmark that has never been surpassed - but it ain't prog! Exactly

Anthrax - you're making me laugh! Indeed Cert.

Kreator - don't confuse technical with progressive. Kreator were never progressive. Fabulous technical thrash though.   Although yes, technical riffs, most the of soloing was very unimpressive, based around many tremolo picked lines for some of the albums, to hide the lack of alternate picking ability. Arguably, the peak of technical thrash around that period, was Megadeth's Rust In Peace, which featured many tempo changes, a few songs with odd time signatures, and of course Marty Friedman's lead guitar style which contained virtuosity perhaps only matched by fellow Bay Area Thrashers. Testament (Alex Skolnick, guitarist in question, with superb technical ability). Sorry Kirk, but your playing is not quite up to that levelTongue

Sodom - Sod 'em! Haven't really heard them enough, but my understanding is that they were one of the more simple of the thrash bands

And of coures, that also helps serve to make a point that the other thrash bands are not justified for inclusion.

I think it serves to make a point, if you want to understand why Metallica is just progressive as many 'prog' artists, you have to listen to it in the correct context, and you absolutely must, know heavy metal history. We keep forgetting Voivod, one the other pioneers of combining thrash with prog to make progressive metal. Listen to them as well, and that will help to make people see how Metallica were truly progressive.



The answer is clearly a no, it wouldn't open the gates for other thrash bands of the era, and certainly a pure thrash band is not a progressive band anyway (unlike Voivod and Metallica who produced definitive progressive thrash metal works).


Edited by HughesJB4 - August 18 2008 at 07:27
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 07:42
^ of course I agree. Metallica are the only classic Thrash band from that time which I would add to this website.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 07:59
Metallica would be a highly controversial addition - there's no doubt - and there would be many, many threads from both angry people and happy people about it, which would probably innundate the site for quite a while.
 
People have labels for them that are equally as justified as "Prog Metal" - it's not unfair to describe their early output as Heavy Metal or Thrash or whatever else - and most people are comfortable with the one label and are not flexible enough to accept anything other than a magazine or website, etc. tells them.
 
We had this problem with Radiohead back in the day - now THAT was a controversial addition - but over the years, their inclusion in the Prog community has become very widely accepted (with a few that still dig their heels in!).
 
There are other problems with Metallica that mainly involve what people associate them with, and that varies depending on the generation mainly. Although people with the musical ears to detect it can hear the unmistakable imprints of Prog in their early music, to some, Metallica are about their self-titled "Black" album and beyond - just as Genesis are about their self-titled album and beyond to a whole generation that wonders about the Prog credentials of Phil Collins.
 
There is also this notion that Metallica's music is all simple, because the later stuff is - again, Genesis make a suitable parallel - but the bottom-line key for most people is that ALL Metallica's output sounds like Heavy Metal.
 
This latter is an obvious non-issue, as there are many Prog Metal bands that sound like heavy metal - Meshuggah, to pull a name out of the air at random, Watchtower, as another, right through to obvious Prog bands like Blotted Science.
 
 
There's also such a thing as keeping a balance - this site needs people who know about Progressive Rock, and it's got them. It also needs people who know about the fringes - Folk Prog, Electronic Prog, Neo and Modern Prog, for example. We also have experts in these areas, and bands in the archives that attract people who know about this sort of music.
 
Jazz fusion is an area in which we don't get too many knowledgable people (there are obviously some - Dick Heath springs to mind very quickly), but that would explain why Miles has been added recently.
 
Does this site need more people who know about metal?
 
Guess which sort of person Metallica would attract...
 
 


Edited by Certif1ed - August 18 2008 at 08:02
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Points: 103 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 10:20
porsenally i would delete all the prog related section.

metallica, black sabath, iron madan and so on and so on, are really great callsical bands, but they are not prog and really shouldnt be here. ar they as prog as maiden? well the answer is yes. but in my opinion maden shouldnt be here nether.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 15:58
Heh - not ONE person has posted to support the unsupportable second option... Wink
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Points: 35762 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 16:31
I don't know either well enough to vote.  That said, there can problems with "because x is here, then y which is more progressive should be here."  If they are similar, and x was a good addition, then it's not a bad thing.  If x is not a good addition, then one risks compounding mistakes.  One complaint that is leveled at including "controversial" additions is that it will open the doors to other controversial, or poor, additions.

If I knew Iron Maiden well, but did not think it good for the archives, then I would not think that worthy in the least of justifying Metallica's inclusion (though if in PR then that's up to the PR team to decide).  Iron Maiden's inclusion has been controversial -- I think it's better to build a case for it on its own merits based on the qualities of its own music (of course one makes comparisons).


Edited by Logan - August 18 2008 at 16:32
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 17:34
Originally posted by fandango fandango wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by fandango fandango wrote:

I thought that M@x wasn't keen on the idea of Metallica being added to PA...in which case, isn't this exercise academic??....Ermm


Back when Iron Maiden were added, Metallica were rejected. But that doesn't mean that this decision is carved in stone ... and even if they never get added, we can still indulge in this academic exercise ... after all, we're here to discuss music.Big%20smile
 
That's a fair point, Mike....Smile
 
as a matter of interest, when Metallica were initially rejected at this time, was it on the grounds that Iron Maiden's 'naughties' output has been moving in a steadily more progressive direction than Metallica's, or because if Metallica were to be added, it would open the gates for a whole raft of other thrash bands with progressive overtones??
 
Just curious...Embarrassed


I can't remember. I guess it was because of their overall affinity to prog - Steve Harris was quite a fan of 70s prog rock, you can hear it in his bass playing, and throughout their discography they had longer, more complex songs, starting with Phantom of the Opera, through Rime of the Ancient Mariner (which is not that complex, but an epic nonethless) to the epics on their latest albums (Benjamin Breeg, Greater Love of God, The Legacy).

But if you really want to know the reasons, you should ask the admin team - or dig up some of the old threads about them.

BTW: I think that your concerns about all the other thrash bands getting added if we allow Metallica ... but as I already said, I don't quite see that. Indeed, by adding Metallica but not those other bands we could prove that we're not that inclusive, but actually quite picky. The only problem is that many people can't see/hear what sets Metallica apart from those other bands. Well, Master of Puppets has just been re-released on vinyl ... Big%20smile
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 23:38
Well... I actually think Metallica IS progressive-metal, but from the options given, of course it at least as prog-related as Iron Maiden (and in influence over the genre, even more).
 
Not comparing so different concepts, but people used to believe the world was flat... eventually, even the most ardent "flatists" silenced when "roundism" appeared.
 
Of course, we CAN't scientifically prove Metallkica is prog metal as they proved the earth is round. BUT... as seen in EVERY THREAD ON THE SUBJECT, those who provide the closest thing to actual evidence are the ones on the Add-metallica side... the opposite side just says "NO".
 
 
 
 


Edited by The T - August 18 2008 at 23:39
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 23:52
The fact that Iron Maiden is here, has no relation with Metallica being here.
 
1.- Prog Metal team has rejected them
2.- Prog Related has rejected them.
 
I believe it's case closed.
 
Miles Davis is here, great, now people are asking for more JAZZ artists, not Fusion, not Prog Related......JAZZ ARTISTS, soon will be asking for Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington, this is no Prog Rewlated Archives or Jazz Archives, this is the most insane poll I seen.
 
That's the problem of opening the gates.
 
Mike, if you want Metallica added, fight for them in PROG METAL; assume the risk and don't throw it to Prog Related, I'm sure that if you insist, nobody will say a word about it.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 18 2008 at 23:56
            
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 00:00
One nore question Mike...Why is this poll sane?
 
Maybe because Metallica is loosing miserably in the other.
 
If people was voting for Metallica to be added in the oher poll, Would you started a second one?
 
Iván
            
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