Should Metallica be in the forum? |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 08:10 | ||||||
^Those videos say that Dream Theater worked with Steve Howe, nothing more.
Even though DT DID copy styles?
Hmm.
This "Being influenced by" could be very tricky - given that there are constructions on "ITCOTCK" that are the same as some on "Kill Em All", it would be fair to say that Metallica were influenced by King Crimson even if they weren't aware of it, following this logic.
I reviewed "Images and Words" and did not detect a strong Yes influcence at all. The Metallica influence, however, was pervasive.
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tokenrove
Forum Newbie Joined: January 10 2008 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 34 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 08:19 | ||||||
Enslaved is a good example of prog metal influenced by Yes... the most concrete source I can find ad hoc is this interview:
http://www.the-plague.net/enslaved.htm I mean, I think the influence of Yes on Dream Theater is clear, too, but Enslaved is a more interesting band for me. And I don't hear any Metallica there. |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 08:34 | ||||||
^OK, how about Opeth or Death?
Which Prog band was Iron Maiden inspired by?
(this whole point is moot really - Radiohead weren't inspired by Yes, Genesis et al, and nor were a vast number of other bands - it's just a fact-finding excercise).
...and so did Iron Butterfly, Love and a number of other psych bands - this is an incredibly tenuous link to Prog - but I'll check out the track anyway - thanks!
/edit - listening to Enslaved on YouTube...
Isa - ordinary heavy metal track. Nothing progressive here. Can't hear the Yes influence or Metallica influence. This is directly influenced by Black Sabbath, as it's based on tritone riffs. Maybe there's a touch of Blue Oyster Cult in there, as the riffs themselves aren't really Sabbath's overall style.
Path to Vanir - same. I can hardly hear the keyboards, but when they cut through, there's a kind of Uriah Heep lite flavour. Some Iron Maiden influence in the bridge.
Havenless - ah, I was waiting for the Metallica influence - check out those riffs from ...And Justice for All (in style). They're very repetitive, aren't they - are you sure this is a Progressive Metal band? It's like a less Progressive version of Cradle of Filth in some ways.
Essence - Again, I'm reminded a little of a slow and very repetitive CoF, but no Prog bands I can think of.
Are you sure this is Progressive Metal?
Metallica should have been here YEARS before this lot! Edited by Certif1ed - August 21 2008 at 08:46 |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21206 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 08:40 | ||||||
Come on ... when some one says "not necessarily", it doesn't mean "under no circumstances". Influences are a very tricky subject indeed. Sometimes they're apparent ... for example, any Pink Floyd fan will instantly recognize the similarities in their Octavarium epic. But they can also be very faint, or a band can be influenced as far as the guitar sound is concerned, but play a very different style of music. Or it applies to vocal arrangements only ... anything is possible. |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 08:48 | ||||||
Indeed - so that settles it.
I edited my post above, BTW, and having now listened to Enslaved, I think that Metallica should have been here a long time ago.
The videos are on YouTube for anyone to check out - Metallica were way ahead of those guys only 20 years earlier.
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tokenrove
Forum Newbie Joined: January 10 2008 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 34 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 08:50 | ||||||
Again, I'm sure we can dig up interviews where they drop the names of this band or that, but it's a boring exercise. Obviously, Camel is the first that comes to mind for Opeth. Death's prog side came from the influence of the Cynic guys on Chuck. Dickinson's references to King Crimson are well known, I don't know about the rest of Maiden but Crimson isn't the first band of which I'd think.
Agreed, except in your specific example, as I seem to recall Radiohead citing Genesis and Can as influences in interviews.
I agree with you that just an interview quote is a bit tenuous, but I chose it because of the explicit name drop; I've also seen several video interviews where they mention Yes, King Crimson, and Gentle Giant in particular. I hear more King Crimson and Voivod in the earlier albums, more Yes in the recent ones. |
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tokenrove
Forum Newbie Joined: January 10 2008 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 34 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 08:56 | ||||||
I just can't hear what you're hearing. Having played (on guitar, bass, drums) the music of Metallica (mostly from Puppets) for years, as well as some Enslaved lately, I can't see how you can compare them. The occasional bar of five does not a prog band make. (And man, am I sick of people calling Orion prog... wow, some harmony in thirds, tierce de Picardi, and a pentatonic bass solo! amazing!) No one ever replied about my earlier discussion of "prior art" for Metallica's progressiveness, and I want to add to it one word: Voivod. |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 08:58 | ||||||
...and it's not the point - the point is that you should be able to HEAR the influence, or detect it through analysis - which is not at all boring, but fun.
No - it's not obvious.
I've reviewed 3 Opeth albums, and not ONE exhibits a Camel influence.
There are people that have said they can hear it - but I don't, and it's not obvious at all.
Cynic - what, that well-known Prog band?
I'll have to check them out, as I've never heard them - can't find any albums from them from 1969-1975 anywhere...
With good reason, I'd suspect.
I don't know of any references to Crimson from Dickinson - I must be well out of touch.
Again, I don't recall those interviews, but I do hear a strong similarity to Can in some of Radiohead's work.
These mentions in interviews are irrelevant, name drops or otherwise.
If you can't hear it in the music, then they're doubly irrelevant - what if John Lydon said he was influenced by Peter Hammill and had worked with Prog musicians - would we then have to add the Sex Pistols? Edited by Certif1ed - August 21 2008 at 09:00 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 09:05 | ||||||
I have good ears
You can't, and I didn't
Don't get hung up on the techniques - that is not equivalent to Prog!
Doesn't the bass in the intro bear a striking similarity to the sound of a Hammond?
Voivod's 1st album was released after Metallica's, and Voivod have recently supported Judas Priest... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voivod_(band).
They covered "Astronomy Domine" inna Metal style (no big deal, many Krautrock bands covered it too, and none achieved Pink Floyd's atmospherics) , and "21st Century Schizoid Man" is the Crimson track that was always crying out for a Metal band to cover it.
Covers do not equal influences in writing - there's nothing in Voivod's output that shows the same complex approaches to composition as either Floyd or Crimson.
Your point? Edited by Certif1ed - August 21 2008 at 09:33 |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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tokenrove
Forum Newbie Joined: January 10 2008 Location: Montreal Status: Offline Points: 34 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 09:07 | ||||||
I resorted to interviews because it's clear that we aren't hearing the same things in the music. I hear the influences that I mentioned (and I don't hear King Crimson in Metallica, sorry, though again, I do like those first four albums). I suppose if I really cared, I could perform some proper analysis, but I just don't have the time to expend for an argument on the internet. I'm going to go write some music instead. I apologize for slipping out with this cowardly non-argument, but that's life: |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 09:30 | ||||||
I wonder if anyone else hears Yes influences in Enslaved - here are the tracks I found on YouTube
Maybe these are just the most Heavy Metal ones that Enslaved did and are not fair representations - but to me, this sounds like plain Heavy Metal much more than early Metallica does.
I think the comments I made above are a fair summary.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21206 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 09:35 | ||||||
Neither Yes nor Enslaved are relevant for this discussion ... and frankly, I don't get the point of this. In that quote he clearly said that they were influenced by some albums of Yes and Pink Floyd "a bit".
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clarke2001
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 14 2006 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 4160 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 09:39 | ||||||
Here's how I'm seeing it: 1. we need to expand the proto prog category. As long as it only lists bands prior to 1969, I feel the subgenres arrived after a prog's heyday are a bit trivialized. It's fine to have proto-symphonic and psyche bands, but there are bands that were prototypes for post-1979 prog rock; for example, Pavlov's Dog for neo prog, Iron Maiden for prog metal. I'm sure there are bands that could be described as proto-post-rock too, but I'm not familiar with the genre. (Of course, Genesis influenced neo prog, but they're Symphonic band at first place.) With that move, we could decrease the number of artists listed in controversial prog-related category and place them in more accurate place: Black Sabbath to proto prog, Iron Maiden to proto prog Deep Purple's inclusion in proto prog would be twice as justified. 2. The only band I disagree with its presence on ProgArchives is Black Sabbath.(the band I love to death). In my opinion, they influenced METAL side of prog metal, not the PROG side. Unlike Iron Maiden who influenced both. It's like adding Bob Dylan because he influenced prog folk. He did, but he influenced FOLK side of prog folk, not PROG. Where's Metallica in that story? Again, IMO, for their influences to PROG metal (they influenced all metal, that's for sure) they are somewhere in between Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden, being a borderline acceptable material for prog related entry. If we take into account they recorded two albums that could be defined as progressive metal (IM too, BS none), at least very progressive-like; that's moving the scales a bit towards YES for inclusion. Hence, yes; the site as it is now should open its doors for Metallica. |
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: December 24 2007 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 25210 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 09:39 | ||||||
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Alberto Muņoz
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 26 2006 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 10:40 | ||||||
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Tony R
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 12:45 | ||||||
Nice one! Dream Theater (Portnoy?) saying quite categorically that they were influenced by Yes. However Cert doesnt think Dream Theater is a Prog band..nor Yes for that matter. Edited by Tony R - August 21 2008 at 12:48 |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35884 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 13:51 | ||||||
Bigger picture though, since but a piece of my post is being quoted there, if one looks back at my post, since I said "such as Yes" (one would include Rush, Genesis etc...), my concern was that the classic progressive rock influence is what brought "the Prog" into metal more than the Metallica influence (Metallica progressed metal, but without the influence of Progressive Rock bands, would Progressive Metal be a viable category here at PA)? Now this has been addressed somewhat subsequently.
Yes, I have expressed an interest in expanding both the prog-related as well as the proto-prog category into subcategories that show clear relations (multi-tagging would be good too). I have wanted proto-folk etc. (though I'd change the term from proto to something else), I have considered that the case of Bob Dylan as a proto-prog folk artist as being rather like the case of Metallica. He influenced a great deal of folk, progressive folk, and otherwise, and Metallica influenced a great deal of metal, Progressive Metal and otherwise. SIDE note: I'd like to open the doors to non-rock/metal artists that influenced music from the various categories here (new categories). Coltrane, as an example (who, yes, I'd love to see here one day). But where does it end, or put another way, and importantly, where does one begin? Does one limit oneself to 20th Century composers (e.g. Stravinsky, Orff, Stockhausen)? Sorry, that's a digression , but is an idea I've been bouncing around since I got here, but understandably has received little to no support (or even response). I tried to do a fun little topic on the idea of proto-prog and prog-related subcategories, but wasn't a very successful topic: Proto [insert Prog genre] and Related bands Edited by Logan - August 21 2008 at 13:55 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 14:19 | ||||||
So why were Enslaved mentioned if they're irrelevant?
Are they not, in fact a Prog Metal band?
Are Dream Theater, in fact, the only Prog Metal band to be influenced by a Prog Rock group, as the inference seems to be from the responses so far?
Obviously, if Prog Metal bands are not really influenced by Prog Rock bands, then that removes the biggest obstacle after blind prejudice to Metallica's inclusion - this is all relevant stuff.
Yes, of course, are entirely relevant, to the question I posed above - maybe it needs another thread.
...and I believe that Johny Rotten once said he was influenced by Peter Hammill, as I inferred above.
Let's get the Sex Pistols in.
Edited by Certif1ed - August 21 2008 at 14:24 |
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer Joined: January 09 2008 Location: Kentucky Status: Offline Points: 24598 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 14:29 | ||||||
The more I check back on this thread the more it looks like everybody's throwing up all over it
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: August 21 2008 at 14:32 | ||||||
depends on how you measure success Greg, not many responses, but all high quality.
again, as mentioned by Tony earlier, the artist Biography could/should indicate why the band was added to PP or PR, the bio-author can easily add sub-category-tags if they wish to indicate directly which subs the bands were influenced on or by.
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What?
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