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Avantgardehead 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2006
Location: Dublin, OH, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1170
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 Posted: September 02 2008 at 04:08 |
 kenmartree wrote:
Prog will never have a clear definition, music doesn't work that way. |
I don't know, while there may not be concrete rules, per se, there are definite guidelines when it comes to genres. For example, compare Slayer to Disturbed and then try to figure out which one is thrash metal.
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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kenmartree
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 14 2007
Location: oregon
Status: Offline
Points: 356
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 08:13 |
Avantgardehead wrote:
kenmartree wrote:
Prog will never have a clear definition, music doesn't work that way. |
I don't know, while there may not be concrete rules, per se, there are definite guidelines when it comes to genres. For example, compare Slayer to Disturbed and then try to figure out which one is thrash metal.
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guidelines, yes, but if they were that definite would we be having this conversation about SD?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 08:18 |
kenmartree wrote:
guidelines, yes, but if they were that definite would we be having this conversation about SD? |
Most surely we won't be having his conversation (very few care about them so much) if Steely Dan hadn't been added to a full Prog genre, when more than 70% of the people voting here believe they are not even Prog Related.
This has nothing to do with Prog's definition, it has to do with a very controversial addition.
Iván
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88melter
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 30 2008
Location: Madison WI
Status: Offline
Points: 94
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 09:21 |
of COURSE music works that way. PROG is easy to define. Classical music more than blues influence, lots of time signatures besides 4/4, often mixed close together, lyric content that sidesteps "mating rituals" (per Steve Hackett), advanced vocal harmony, and the ULTIMATE criteria, meant to be LISTENED to rather than danced or moshed to.
The music industry has abetted these somewhat atrificial categories, of course, but they do have a basisi in fact as well as pratice.
So, Steely Dan is not prog because it is blues based, uses 4/4 most of the time, relates heavliy to mating rituals, and, as in the case of EVERYTHING MUST GO, is actually meant to be danced to. Walter Becker called it a "party record". Great jazz vocal harmonies, though, eh?
thanx,
88melter
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88melter
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88melter
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 30 2008
Location: Madison WI
Status: Offline
Points: 94
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 09:38 |
Hey, websites exist to create stuff to blather about, and this one has been kinda successful, wouldn't you say? Steely Dan is pop/jazz, and great music. It is not progressive rock, but, then only 4 or 5 persons seem to really care, anyway. Until ALL the members of the PROG Archives weigh in, the website's attempt to drag us all in will have failed...HAH, take that, online media...
88melter
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88melter
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jimidom
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 02 2007
Location: Houston, TX USA
Status: Offline
Points: 570
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 09:59 |
88melter wrote:
Steely Dan is pop-jazz. Early Steely Dan is just pop music, period. They are WAY too blues based, and nicely so, to be progrock. Always dug everything of theirs, always will.
88melter |
Within their vast catalog of songs, I can only think of two blues-based Steely Dan songs off the top of my head, "Pretzel Logic" and "Show Biz Kids". They are far more jazz-based than blues-based.
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"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST
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jimidom
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 02 2007
Location: Houston, TX USA
Status: Offline
Points: 570
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 10:18 |
88melter wrote:
of COURSE music works that way. PROG is easy to define. Classical music more than blues influence, |
Easy to define? Classical more than blues? What about jazz? I see what you mean, but according to your rationale, it would seem like quite a few prog bands could be eliminated due to their music going outside classical, including a few of the biggies: ELP ("Karn Evil 9: 2nd Impression"), Pink Floyd ("Seamus") and King Crimson (too many to name). If I'm not mistaken, Wakeman's organ solo on "Roundabout" is straight ahead blues.
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"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST
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88melter
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 30 2008
Location: Madison WI
Status: Offline
Points: 94
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 10:40 |
One of the bigger difficulties about online chats is that every exception seems to disprove a rule, rather than the other way around. If Art were that clearly defined, we could use accountants for performers. The key words here are MORE THAN. Blues, rock, jazz, prog, country, folk, classical, nice words all, they ought to help us communicate rather than hinder the exchange of ideas. Perhaps you were like me in high school. I didn't like any of the flavors of soda that one could get out of the drink machine, straight into a cup, so I blended tham all together most of the time, root beer, Coke, Seven-Up, orange soda, etc. This is my paradigm.
Why eliminate anything? Find the boundaries, and make them inclusive, rather than exclusive. Steely Dan is outside the boudaries of PROG because they use too many non-prog elements as the basis for their style. YES, ELP etc, use a dose of blues or country here and there, but do not base their style on these aspects.
dig?
bye for now, I'm done with this thread, it's been fun and thought-provking,
88melter
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88melter
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Alberto Muñoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 11:03 |
88melter wrote:
danke schoen, eeet eees goot to being mit you und das PROGGEN-FORUM.
88melter |
In english please 
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Dr. Occulator
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 04 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 628
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 19:43 |
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This poll really intrigues me.
With all the sub-genres of progressive rock...symphonic...neo...metal...eclectic...prog-related...math...jazz fusion...etc., it was inevitable that Steely Dan would create waves with what some call based on a jazz-blues-fusion format.
The fact is they are a totally unique beast in that they have effectively created a style of intelligent, thought provoking music that has never existed before they did. The Dan are original and I'll say again that they've set the bar for their own idea of what great music can strive to be.
Definitely not your traditional progressive rock band however by their very presence in the musical landscape they have gained admiration from what I see as a vast number of traditional prog music fans. They have shown that many of the progressive rock 'values' that are so dear to prog fans were able to be incorporated into a completely different style of music.
All I can say is that IMO the Dan are a band worthy of the highest acolades and if time is spent absorbing the effort and intelligence that has been poured into their albums the enjoyment of what they have accomplished satisfies the quest for truly great music which so many prog fans aspire to find.
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My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65266
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 19:59 |
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mrgd
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 02 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 822
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 22:31 |
...........and they really know how to lay down a solid groove . Bodacious cowboys !
Her come those Santa Ana winds again . 
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Looking still the same after all these years...
mrgd
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88melter
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 30 2008
Location: Madison WI
Status: Offline
Points: 94
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 22:42 |
Accolades duly noted and given.
88melter
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88melter
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 22:50 |
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I'd love to jump into the fray here, but I think I'll just go drink Scotch whiskey all night long...and hopefully not die behind the wheel...
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88melter
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 30 2008
Location: Madison WI
Status: Offline
Points: 94
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 23:09 |
everything must go, so, ..
88melter
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88melter
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Yorkie X
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 04 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1049
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Posted: September 03 2008 at 01:04 |
Some valid points either way .. but this is also a poll and the results are not looking convincing so far for Steely Dan ... it seems most people think who have voted so far that they are not prog. I don"t care what they are I still like them very much , but if I want my prog fix Steely Dan isn't ever who I reach for, I listen to them to chill out 
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kenmartree
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 14 2007
Location: oregon
Status: Offline
Points: 356
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Posted: September 03 2008 at 08:36 |
88melter wrote:
of COURSE music works that way. PROG is easy to define. Classical music more than blues influence, lots of time signatures besides 4/4, often mixed close together, lyric content that sidesteps "mating rituals" (per Steve Hackett), advanced vocal harmony, and the ULTIMATE criteria, meant to be LISTENED to rather than danced or moshed to.
The music industry has abetted these somewhat atrificial categories, of course, but they do have a basisi in fact as well as pratice.
So, Steely Dan is not prog because it is blues based, uses 4/4 most of the time, relates heavliy to mating rituals, and, as in the case of EVERYTHING MUST GO, is actually meant to be danced to. Walter Becker called it a "party record". Great jazz vocal harmonies, though, eh?
thanx,
88melter |
Prog is easy to define! Maybe for you, but look around this site at the debates about what prog is and isn't.
Lots of time sigs besides 4/4, I think a lot of bands on this site are going to have to go!
Just because you can't dance to prog doesn't mean I can't.
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jimidom
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 02 2007
Location: Houston, TX USA
Status: Offline
Points: 570
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Posted: September 03 2008 at 11:29 |
jammun wrote:
I'd love to jump into the fray here, but I think I'll just go drink Scotch whiskey all night long...and hopefully not die behind the wheel... |
I think I'll partake of "the Cuervo Gold and the fine Columbian". BTW, is Fagen talking about Juan Valdez or something a little greener?
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"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST
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mrgd
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 02 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 822
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Posted: September 03 2008 at 20:02 |
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Green earrings... I remember. Could only be green !
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Looking still the same after all these years...
mrgd
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Traveller Grey
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 31 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 21
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Posted: September 06 2008 at 19:10 |
Let's see...
Strange vocals, Intellegent harmonic development, diverse musical influences, an influence on bands that followed, never completely bending to the whim of the public, creative rhythm section...
I guess it's close enough for me.
They can't all be VDGG or Magma.
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Is Steely Dan prog ?
