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Topic ClosedThe "Metallica for Prog Related" Poll
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Poll Question: Iron Maiden are here - in that light, do Metallica also qualify?
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Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:08
Progressive music in Thrash Style, well Allmusic has to explain more about this sentence...




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Points: 66256 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:04

Since Ivan mentioned the AllMusic Guide, here is their definition of Thrash music. 

Thrash was essentially the sound of underground heavy metal during the '80s, dominated by a driving, percussive approach to rhythm guitar (thanks to a pick-hand technique called palm muting) and furious levels of aggression. Thrash was often technically accomplished, taken at fast tempos, and emphasized heavy, sometimes atonal guitar riffs over melody; however, these generalizations are far from absolute rules. In its early days, thrash was essentially the same thing as speed metal, the product of American bands who in the early '80s fused the lean, vicious attack of the New Wave of British Heavy Metal with the tempos of hardcore punk and Motorhead. However, the dexterity and constant intensity required to play speed metal proved limiting to some, and a variety of different approaches quickly took shape: some thrash bands concentrated more on midtempo grooves, occasionally accelerating into speed-metal realms; some, like Metallica and Megadeth, used their instrumental technique to craft more intricate and progressive music; others emphasized the music's aggression to project theatrically menacing images. Thrash provided a harder, heavier, more authentically metallic alternative to the accessible pop-metal bands who dominated the charts in the late '80s, and despite a dearth of airplay, it became quite popular, so much so that when Metallica and Megadeth streamlined their sound to make it more accessible in the early '90s, they became instant superstars. Diehard underground metalheads took refuge in the thrash-inspired death and black metal styles, which took thrash's dark subject matter and visceral force to intentionally disturbing extremes.

In blue, their reference to Metallica and Megadeth crafting "progressive music".   Their definition, not Mike's or Certs.  As weird as it may seem to some there really is some rationale behind it.
 
As I posted in one of the other threads I really never considered Metallica to be a thrash band other than with their Kill 'em All and some of Garage Days. 
 
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Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:59
Agree 100% with you Ivan, i rembember the first time i visit PA, it was a site in construction, when i became a forum member in 2006, the site was enormously... and by now it's really a huge influential site.
 
Cheers to all that have sacrified time, effort and diversions to run this wonderful site that yes we all enjoy for free, nothing more nothing less.ClapClap
 
I personally being friend of Cesar Inca and Memowakeman, and they are also a very connoseiur of prog rock themes.
 
Alberto
 




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Points: 2551 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:58
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I think it's a combination of both. Certif1ed posted some specific examples of the progressiveness in those Metallica albums ... the most obvious examples are Master of Puppets and And Justice For All. Do you own any other important thrash albums from that time? I think the difference between for example Slayer - Reign in Blood and Metallica - Master of Puppets is quite apparent. 


I don't think I own other albums form this particular time and I know the difference between those bands just like you said, it's pretty clear. Yet I still stand by my opinion and  I clearly understand their influence on progressive metal and I just can't see their relation to prog other than being this one and if it's that one I'll accept it.

I'm only stating my opinion...and not relating it to the Miles Davis and the Avantasia additions (honestly I've never heard of them up until now).




Edited by burritounit - August 19 2008 at 17:02
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Points: 11682 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:53
I could not agree more with Ivan.
<font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:52
^ I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.Embarrassed
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Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:48
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I think it's a combination of both. Certif1ed posted some specific examples of the progressiveness in those Metallica albums ... the most obvious examples are Master of Puppets and And Justice For All. Do you own any other important thrash albums from that time? I think the difference between for example Slayer - Reign in Blood and Metallica - Master of Puppets is quite apparent. 
 
You repeat that argument in previous Threads??? why???
 
 




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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:47

Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:

[QUOTE=Ivan_Melgar_M]
I refuse to see a Prog site that I joined EXCLUSIVELY FOR PROG, slowly turn into a general music site.

Worse things have happened.

Yes of course, an asteroid could fall on our heads, but that's out of our reach, we can solve what we are working for, what WE created in 5 years of work

I refuse to see people not caring for REAL 100% Prog bands announced and making 5 or 10 pages of barely related bands.

What is a "real 100% Prog" band?

Yes, Genesis (Early), King Crimnson, Kansas, PFM, Anglagard, Par Lindh Project, Focuds, Banco del Mutuo Soccorso, After Crying, Disclipline, Pain of Salvation, Porcupine Tree, Rick Wakeman, Steve Hackett, Frank Zappa, Factor Burzaco, Anton Roolaart, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Jean Luc Ponty, ;Mike Oldfield, etc...Do they say anything to you?

I refuse to see 10 pages of Metallica and barely one page about the probably last King Crimson tour in a Progressive Rock site.

That's easy enough to solve:  don't read those threads (and spare the hyperbole).

That's easy to say for a newcomer with 198 posts, but many of us have placed our efforts (and still do it) creating something unique and special.

I may isagree with collabirators like Mike, Micky, Raffaella, or others, but I seen them every day for years working hard, even at 2 or 3 am and raff waking at 5 am to work every day with the Symphonic Team.
 
With them we cleaned 519 bandsone by one, it took us almost a year, we don't want to let this work disappear.
 
I refuse to close my eyes, that won't change reality and won't save us from the risk of loosing credibility, and honestly, I care for this site.

I refuse to see an active musician as Alex Carpani, who recruited with great effort a living legend as Aldo Tagliapetra, offering his collaboration to Prog Archives and nobody caring about because Toto, Boistoin and Metallica are more important.

Guess not everyone shares your opinion?

This proves that many people haven't joined PROG ARCHIVES....THE ULTIMATE PROG ROCK RESOURCE because of Prog.

Progarchives.com%20Homepage


I refuse to see the opinion of the adminuistrators and teams to be questioned by people who don't agree with their favorite band being rejected,. not because of quality, but because IT'S NOT PROG.

Despite clear arguments in support that these bands are progressive.  Trust me: it's alright to question of authority, especially authority which fails to legitimize itself (we're not exactly talking about technical, scholarly knowledge--it's just pop music after all).

That authority has been chosen by the OWNERS, the peope who placed their money in this site you are enjoying for free, How can we question them?

Authority that faills to legitimize itself?????
 
Please..legitimacy is earned with resources, effort, money and work, the owners put the money and a lot of work, the Adms put the hard work, the Collaborators put their sacrifice and their time for free...Don't you believe we earned our legitimity?
 
POP?, well I don't agree with that (maybe in the case of Metallica, but still I doubt it). Pop has it's own parameters and characteristics different to Progressive Rock, and if you don't find them, I understand why you are having problems with this issues.

I refuse to see people accepting the opinion of the majorities, unless the majority agrees with them}

The majority can be misguided, or just plain wrong.  In any case, it's by no means incontestable that the "majority" (of who exactly) disapprove of Metallica's inclusion into the archive.

So..We must ignore the owners, the Administrators, the Collaborators the members and believe you?

We are all misguided and you are right?

I refuse to see a band like Metallica, who doesn't want to be considered Prog, being pushed into our thrats, despite it's obvious most of the people don't believe they belong here.

By that argument, we should remove King Crimson from the archive in view of Fripp's rejection of the description "progressive."

He has a dislike for categorization, but has never rejected the term Proggressive neither the characteristics of their music, but Metallica is explicit, they claim to be a METAL BAND and nothing more.

On the bright side, though, only 88 more theses to post and you can begin the Reformation.

The reformation has started long before you joined, a reformation created with work and love for the site and Prog.

Iván




Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 19 2008 at 16:49
            
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:46
^ I think it's a combination of both. Certif1ed posted some specific examples of the progressiveness in those Metallica albums ... the most obvious examples are Master of Puppets and And Justice For All. Do you own any other important thrash albums from that time? I think the difference between for example Slayer - Reign in Blood and Metallica - Master of Puppets is quite apparent. 
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burritounit View Drop Down
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Points: 2551 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:34
Sorry if this has been asked before. I haven't read the other pages that much.

For what reason are we going to add Metallica(if "approved")? because of their influence on the progressive metal genre? or because they are prog metal, prog related or however you call it?

Personally I can't hear any "progressive" elements in their music and I don't think that having odd times and long songs makes you prog. Also, I don't know much about Metallica(I only have Master Of Puppets and S&M) but I clearly I cannot se any relation between Metallica and prog unless your reffering to the influencethey had on some progressive metal bands. If thats the reason "maybe" they should be considered

Just my opinion...Smile


Edited by burritounit - August 19 2008 at 16:40
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:25
^ I can't see any logic in your deduction. Of course we should be careful not to "water down" the definition of prog related. The more bands there are, the easier it is to make an argument for an inclusion - the dreaded "X -> Y" rule. I remember how prog related started ... Queen were one of the first bands to be added, and back then I remember that Led Zeppelin were also suggested, but rejected. More and more prog related bands were added, and at one point Led Zeppelin were put back on the map and finally added.

I don't want to see this happen with metal bands ... rather the reverse. Still, Metallica are one of the few bands which IMHO are perfect for prog related.
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Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:17
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

[
 
 
Clap I clearly understand your logic and it seems it was the best course of actin. When the site had but 10 prog-related bands, a big name as Metallica which causes a lot of controversy in regards to its relation to prog would've been more problematic. Now the situation can be looked upon with much more reasoning and less prejudice.
 
Yeah in that logic, Korn and RATM  has also Proggy elements no?????




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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:04
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


  1. I refuse to see a Prog site that I joined EXCLUSIVELY FOR PROG, slowly turn into a general music site.
    How many prog related bands are there ... 100, 150? Of more than 3000 prog bands. Come on ...
  2. I refuse to see people not caring for REAL 100% Prog bands announced and making 5 or 10 pages of barely related bands.
    How do you know that people are not caring? Just because the Metallica discussion has been revived by recent discussions about Miles Davis and Sting? These discussions have come and gone ... none of them has really lasted longer than a week or two.
  3. I refuse to see 10 pages of Metallica and barely one page about the probably last King Crimson tour in a Progressive Rock site.
    Sorry, but I don't see what's that interesting about that tour. Sure, seeing King Crimson on stage is great, but talking about these shows ... what's the novelty?
  4. I refuse to see an active musician as Alex Carpani, who recruited with great effort a living legend as Aldo Tagliapetra, offering his collaboration to Prog Archives and nobody caring about because Toto, Boistoin and Metallica are more important.
    When did that happen? Tell me more about it ... but first: Have you listened to Panzerballet yet? No? Shame on you!Wink Let's be realistic ... none of us has the time to listen to or check out all the lesser known artists that exist on this planet.
  5. I refuse to see the opinion of the adminuistrators and teams to be questioned by people who don't agree with their favorite band being rejected,. not because of quality, but because IT'S NOT PROG.
    This has nothing to do with Metallica being my favorite band. They're not even my favorite band, although I value them highly. Also, I agree that they're not prog. Neither are Queen, Led Zeppelin - or Iron Maiden. Prog Related - which you wrote the description for if I remember correctly - is, among other things, for highly influential bands which came close to playing prog, but didn't quite "cross the line". No matter how this poll turns out, it's obvious that many people think that they're one of a handful of important metal bands which would make sense to be added as prog related.
  6. I refuse to see people accepting the opinion of the majorities, unless the majority agrees with them}
    I can respect these opinions, but I don't have to "adopt" them ... of course I would be glad if this poll turned out in favor of the addition, but if it doesn't it won't change my opinion. In any case, I will accept the admins' decision.
  7. I refuse to see a band like Metallica, who doesn't want to be considered Prog, being pushed into our thrats, despite it's obvious most of the people don't believe they belong here.
    Porcupine Tree / Steven Wilson doesn't like being called "prog" either ... obviously that doesn't stop us. Besides, let's emphasize again that I'm not calling Metallica "prog".Big%20smile

If this was a General Rock site, I would accept Metallica, The Bee Gees...Even N'Sync, but no, this is a Progressive Rock site, that some of us have formed since it started, placed a lot of effort on it, expend time that could had been spent with our family or working to gain ore money, but we doid it for PROG, not for Metal, Jazz, AOR, Alternative, Sibnger Songwritter, etc.

Let me repeat again that this website has accepted a very small number of prog related / proto prog bands. Nobody's "opening the flood gates". If I hadn't brought up Metallica, won't you instead complain about Avantasia, whose addition I had nothing to do with? Please, I'm not your enemy. I don't think that we need many more prog related bands in the archives, I just think that Metallica are one of the few that are vital.

BTW: I believe it's more trivial and out of lace to create a 10 opages thread about Boston, NMetallica or Toto, than place our emphasis in REAL PROG BANDS.
 
This place is called PROG ARCHIVES....Not Allmusic.

That's why we're not adding thousands of non prog bands.
 
Iván
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:03
Originally posted by M@X M@X wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:


Originally posted by fandango fandango wrote:

I thought that M@x wasn't keen on the idea of Metallica being added to PA...in which case, isn't this exercise academic??....Ermm
Back when Iron Maiden were added, Metallica were rejected. But that doesn't mean that this decision is carved in stone ... and even if they never get added, we can still indulge in this academic exercise ... after all, we're here to discuss music.Big%20smile



I am indeed more open to the addition of METALLICA that I was before , because the PROG RELATED sub-genre is now more understood and better integrated with the site.

The artist listed-in now are totally justified. Having adding METALLICA at the beginning of the PROG RELATED genre would have beed really a bad move. Now I am more keane to the idea.

So.... let's share your vote.

PS: I voted METALLICA less PROG RELATED than IRON MAIDEN ;-)
 
Clap I clearly understand your logic and it seems it was the best course of actin. When the site had but 10 prog-related bands, a big name as Metallica which causes a lot of controversy in regards to its relation to prog would've been more problematic. Now the situation can be looked upon with much more reasoning and less prejudice.
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Points: 424 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:01
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


I refuse to see a Prog site that I joined EXCLUSIVELY FOR PROG, slowly turn into a general music site.

Worse things have happened.

I refuse to see people not caring for REAL 100% Prog bands announced and making 5 or 10 pages of barely related bands.

What is a "real 100% Prog" band?

I refuse to see 10 pages of Metallica and barely one page about the probably last King Crimson tour in a Progressive Rock site.

That's easy enough to solve:  don't read those threads (and spare the hyperbole).

I refuse to see an active musician as Alex Carpani, who recruited with great effort a living legend as Aldo Tagliapetra, offering his collaboration to Prog Archives and nobody caring about because Toto, Boistoin and Metallica are more important.

Guess not everyone shares your opinion?

I refuse to see the opinion of the adminuistrators and teams to be questioned by people who don't agree with their favorite band being rejected,. not because of quality, but because IT'S NOT PROG.

Despite clear arguments in support that these bands are progressive.  Trust me: it's alright to question of authority, especially authority which fails to legitimize itself (we're not exactly talking about technical, scholarly knowledge--it's just pop music after all).

I refuse to see people accepting the opinion of the majorities, unless the majority agrees with them}

The majority can be misguided, or just plain wrong.  In any case, it's by no means incontestable that the "majority" (of who exactly) disapprove of Metallica's inclusion into the archive.

I refuse to see a band like Metallica, who doesn't want to be considered Prog, being pushed into our thrats, despite it's obvious most of the people don't believe they belong here.

By that argument, we should remove King Crimson from the archive in view of Fripp's rejection of the description "progressive."

On the bright side, though, only 88 more theses to post and you can begin the Reformation.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:00
Originally posted by zafreth zafreth wrote:

Wow Ivan, that's a really punch in the face!!!!Clap
 
This is not a contest or a boxing match.


Edited by The T - August 19 2008 at 16:01
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Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 15:49
Wow Ivan, that's a really punch in the face!!!!Clap




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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 15:44
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Mike wrote:
Quote This poll shows the opposite. You may complain about the comparison with Iron Maiden ... but Metallica's own merits are the basis for making the comparison in the first place.
 
Not longer Mike, Metallica is loosing here also.
 
Iván


Let's wait a little while longer ... the thread isn't even (EDIT: 48Wink) hours old.Smile


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - August 19 2008 at 15:46
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 15:39
Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:

Originally posted by zafreth zafreth wrote:

That's right Ivan... i read your post and you think equally about Metallica as i.


Insofar that neither one of you have evinced anything resembling thought beyond personal prejudice.  It amazes me (although I might be naive) that:  1) people refuse to consider certain bands with an open mind, and 2) people wring their hands over such trivial topics.
 
Seems you haven't read the earlier posts Winter Light.
 
IMO Metallica is a Thrash Metal band with no Prog eklements, befrore giving my opinion, I took the time to listen the allegedly more Propg albums and found nothing that made me think in Prog.
 
I don't refuse to consider any band with open mind:
  1. I refuse to see a Prog site that I joined EXCLUSIVELY FOR PROG, slowly turn into a general music site.
  2. I refuse to see people not caring for REAL 100% Prog bands announced and making 5 or 10 pages of barely related bands.
  3. I refuse to see 10 pages of Metallica and barely one page about the probably last King Crimson tour in a Progressive Rock site.
  4. I refuse to see an active musician as Alex Carpani, who recruited with great effort a living legend as Aldo Tagliapetra, offering his collaboration to Prog Archives and nobody caring about because Toto, Boston and Metallica are more important.
  5. I refuse to see the opinion of the adminuistrators and teams to be questioned by people who don't agree with their favorite band being rejected,. not because of quality, but because IT'S NOT PROG.
  6. I refuse to see people not accepting the opinion of the majorities, unless the majority agrees with them.
  7. I refuse to see a band like Metallica, who doesn't want to be considered Prog, being pushed into our throats, despite it's obvious most of the people don't believe they belong here.

If this was a General Rock site, I would accept Metallica, The Bee Gees...Even N'Sync, but no, this is a Progressive Rock site, that some of us have formed since it started, placed a lot of effort on it, expend time that could had been spent with our family or working to gain ore money, but we did and still do it for lave to PROG, not for Metal, Jazz, AOR, Alternative, Singer Songwritter, etc.

BTW: I believe it's more trivial and out of place to create a 10 pages thread about Boston, Metallica or Toto, than place our emphasis in REAL PROG BANDS.
 
This place is called PROG ARCHIVES....Not Allmusic.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 19 2008 at 16:01
            
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Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 15:33
Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:



Insofar that neither one of you have evinced anything resembling thought beyond personal prejudice. 
 
WinterLight i have not prejudice about Metallica, in fact i liked those albums until the Black Album that never have listen complete. But i Strong consider Metallica a "Rock band".
 
It amazes me (although I might be naive) that:  1) people refuse to consider certain bands with an open mind,
 
Well i ask direct, why to add Metallica to PA, if you can write long and detailed reviews in other metal specialized sites???
 
and 2) people wring their hands over such trivial topics.
Why not??? this is a friendly forum...Big%20smile




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