Should Metallica be in the forum?

Atavachron wrote: it is a very subtle distinction, and it would bring up some questions: should Sabbath and Maiden be moved to 'Proto ProgMetal' ?   Should artists be added as UFO, Uli Roth's Electric Sun, Ozzy, Michael Schenker Group, Rising Force, and bands as Angel Witch [noted by Hetfield and Ulrich as an important influence on Metallica] be added ?

I would say for the sake of the purity of the site.. which some.. really do care a great deal about.. probably should stay away from the 'influences on influences'... I think the important thing is to get the important direct influences on PM.  Judas Priest being the most glaring omission assuming Metallica is stricken from the list.

seeing how the site doesn't like to create new categories.. and let's face it...  prog metal is not the only branch of prog to exist ..or grow out of the 70's and have influences that lay outside 1969. It is easier.. and better for the site to just drop the 1969 catch to proto prog... and simply make it 'influences on prog'. It has been proposed numerous times... and have not seen ONE reason.. not even a half-ass one..as to why the site shouldn't. 

 ^ ah, I see what you're getting at--  an enlarged Proto category that encompasses artists influential on all Prog genres

To an extent I have a difficulty with the proto-prog definition anyhow.  That is one of the strangest album by album categories to explain.  I can certainly understand how early Deep Purple albums or Iron Maiden albums might be proto-prog for the bands that they influenced but both of those bands have released numerous albums afterwards that are obviously not proto anything, although probably still prog-related. 

Well I definitely support this notion of expanding proto prog.

To my mind, Black Sabbath is every bit as proto prog metal as they were simply "prog related"
Sabbath didn't just play metal.... it was a melting pot of blues, the late 60s heavy rock style, jazz elements and other subtleties thrown into one.
Obviously they aren't a prog metal band by the standards of what one is since the genre become what we know it as in the 80s/early 90s, but Sabbath definitely had that progressive approach, and that is something that cannot really be argued against.
DP as well,  a highly progressive approach, while not being strictly prog in the traditional sense.

I see Metallica, as not being perhaps quite progressive enough for prog metal, but defintely DO belong on PA.
So if they aren't enough for prog metal, then that leaves other options.

Prog related can work... but that isn't really descriptive of the true nature of their pioneering approach.
That's why the proto prog metal tag is looking like a very nice idea indeed.

If someone wants to hear my more in depth case as to why Metallica suits proto prog metal better than prog metal, hell, even if I'm at the moment I'd rather listen to other bands, I can go and listen to Metallica and Dream Theater back to back and compare.

The way I see it, there is more difference between DT and Metallica than Cert has to tell us. It's now a matter of who is willing to get off their butt and put in the listening hours, analyze it, and write out the notes.
I'll do it.

Anyone else who can see the case for Metallica for being more suited for proto prog metal or prog related and is musically inclined (as in, a musician in the case of I or MikeEnRegalia for example), it might be a good idea to get out the notepad and give those classic DT and Metallica albums a whirl and some serious deep listening.

Well my rather spartan view on influences is that they shouldn't be included as artists on a website dedicated to a specific genre (like My Dying Bride here or Rush on Metal-Archives) but just mentioned in the bio and/or reviews and that's it.

But since I don't run such a website and have no power here, if you must add them then you must.

Thought about the idea of renaming proto prog to "major influences" or something similar on my own.

Would be much better than proto prog, and help and ease the addition of various artists that have contributed with the development of all aspects of prog genres on the site. Rising Force for prog metal inded (first time I heard Symphony X I thought it was a Rising Force album I didn't know about), Celtic Frost for extreme....and countless other bands and artists that helped defining progressive music by being major influences to the sound and style. And perhaps some more borderline cases could be assessed to - Virgin Steele for instance.

Personally I'd like to reorganice the sub-genres on the front page into main genres and sub-categores as well....but guess that won't happen until there's a real chilly day in hell ;-)

Avantgardehead wrote: Well my rather spartan view on influences is that they shouldn't be included as artists on a website dedicated to a specific genre (like My Dying Bride here or Rush on Metal-Archives) but just mentioned in the bio and/or reviews and that's it. But since I don't run such a website and have no power here, if you must add them then you must.

Windhawk wrote: Not changing history, actually. I'm not a big genres guy, and if proto prog as an expression is established with certain criterias outside of this site it should have to stay, obviously.

Windhawk wrote: Followed that link, and at once came across a heap of proto prog artists which I don't think is around here - not many at least. Morton Subotnik, Charles Wuorinen, Milton Babbitt, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Otto Luening, Mario Davidovsky, Vladimir Ussachevsky, Edgard Varese, Tod Dockstader, Pierre Henry and Pierre Schaeffer All listed as pioneers in the development of electronic prog according to Gibraltar.

Subotnik, Stockhausen, Cage also listed, as in mentioned in the prog electronic definition here as well. But that's no real reason to make a proto-prog case out of them, especially when some of them are classical writers, coming up with works rather than albums.
As Iván mentioned earlier, a difference between mentioning the influences and forfathers of a certain progressive genre and integrating them in the Archives exists.