^ by "real" prog metal bands I mean all the bands which are commonly referred to as "prog metal" ... of course that includes Dream Theater. I know that most of these bands are not prog metal by your definition. But that's mainly due to your strange definition of the term ... for example, Images & Words is much, much more complex and demanding both to the listeners and musicians than Ride the Lightning. It constantly changes style, tempo, sound, mood, instruments etc. etc. ... if all that bores you or doesn't qualify as "prog", then you might have to live with the fact that in that regard you are part of a small minority.

BTW: I think this another case of "Prog" vs. "progressive" ...

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ by "real" prog metal bands I mean all the bands which are commonly referred to as "prog metal" ... of course that includes Dream Theater. I know that most of these bands are not prog metal by your definition.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: for example, Images & Words is much, much more complex and demanding both to the listeners and musicians than Ride the Lightning. It constantly changes style, tempo, sound, mood, instruments etc. etc. ...

Are there any zeuhl-related bands that arent on the archives or being considered for inclusion?

Certif1ed wrote: micky wrote: good point ^^ personally  this  issue should be probably be decided on the same question that has kept.. and hopefully will forever keep Black Sabbath out of here. is Metallica's influence.. on metal itself... or on the 'prog' side of it.  We include only Prog Metal groups here.. not the whole spectrum of metal. I don't think anyone could deny their influence on metal.   Prog-Metal is a subset of  metal of course.   What did Metaliica bring to the PROG side of Prog Metal.   That can be demonstrated in the three clips I posted earlier - although there are better examples on the albums.   "Ride The Lightning", for example (the first of this group of 3), contains several changes in the instrumental section, which are carefully constructed to fit around the solo - which again, is carefully composed.   The riffs use elements of each other and are related, while the drumming changes to highlight dramatic change. This is a carefully conceived work, and is the equal, in terms of Prog Metal to anything on "Images and Words".   The latter contains many techniques that are more advanced than Metallica's - but that is to follow Metallica's pattern of getting consistently more progressive with each album until they regretfully stopped.   The formal constructions and compositional ideas are no more advanced than Metallica's - which makes RTL a Prog Metal album in pretty much the same way as "Images and Words" - but without the keyboards.   Let me justify that in easy terms;   The songs on IAW are exactly that - songs with extended bridges, just like RTL.   The difference is that very few metal bands in the early 1980s constructed songs using this technique - it's all intro, V,C,V,C,SOLO,V,C,C,C...   Listen to RTL again - the "chorus" is blurred - more of a refrain than a chanting singalong chorus typical to metal.   And, for luck, listen to the construction of the solo - the dynamic peaks and troughs, changes in tempo and key feel.   Is that really not Prog Metal?   Why not?     Compare it with anything else released in metal in 1984 - does it sound like basic metal, basic thrash or something else completely?   (The context is important!)

Starting the discussion over, this time I completely agree with you. Apart for one or two more elaborated songs in Images and Words, there is nothing groundbreaking in that album. The structure is more or less formulaic and the main difference between the songs in Images and Words  and Ride The Lighting (song) is that usually songs in Images and Words have some solos in the intro. The rest is the same verses with a simple riff, bridge/chorus with variations and fast solos.

If Images and Words is the benchmark of Prog Metal, then Metallica has some credentials. I personally does not think Images and Words to be a benchmark of Prog Metal since it is not near the best Dream Theater album (my faves are Awake, Falling Into Infinity and Octavarium) and if all albums were like Images and Words maybe I would consider them Prog Related, but maybe it is just my perception of prog that can be against the general consensus. And it is based in this perception that I measure the progressiveness of a band/song. That is why I consider Metallica to be at the maximum a case of Prog Related, though I wouldn't consider then even Prog Related, like Iron Maiden, for example.

akin wrote: Starting the discussion over, this time I completely agree with you. Apart for one or two more elaborated songs in Images and Words, there is nothing groundbreaking in that album. The structure is more or less formulaic and the main difference between the songs in Images and Words  and Ride The Lighting (song) is that usually songs in Images and Words have some solos in the intro. The rest is the same verses with a simple riff, bridge/chorus with variations and fast solos. If Images and Words is the benchmark of Prog Metal, then Metallica has some credentials. I personally does not think Images and Words to be a benchmark of Prog Metal since it is not near the best Dream Theater album (my faves are Awake, Falling Into Infinity and Octavarium) and if all albums were like Images and Words maybe I would consider them Prog Related, but maybe it is just my perception of prog that can be against the general consensus. And it is based in this perception that I measure the progressiveness of a band/song. That is why I consider Metallica to be at the maximum a case of Prog Related, though I wouldn't consider then even Prog Related, like Iron Maiden, for example.

Since when is adding a band's discography to the archive the only way to acknowledge it's contribution to prog (and/or to prog's "expanded universe")? There is more to this site than that. There are other sections of it that wait to be expanded by our contributions.
In the case of Metallica or of the so called "proto-prog-metal", wouldn't it have been better if all the thoughts thrown against each other on this thread were compiled on a page between these other:

What is Progressive Rock ?

• A definition of Progressive Rock Music
  
• The history of Progressive Rock Music (1967 - 2004) by Progarchives.com (ProgLucky)
  
• The development of Progressive Rock Music
  
• The genres of Progressive Rock Music
  

Other Related Documents

• History of vintage keyboards currently used in prog rock
• Introduction to Krautrock
• Jazz Rock / Modern Jazz Genesis
• Ethnic music and (in) progressive rock : a comparative analysis
• The French Progressive Rock Scene
• Belgian Chamber Prog Rock Scene
• Incantation, secret energy and " enthusiasm " airs in third ear band's music
• The Experimental Electronic Wave of Progressive Rock

...?

TheProgtologist wrote: I will echo what Cert said in the last line of the above post.....you guys have handled this potentially flammable subject very well.

Certif1ed wrote: I also don't hear what so progressive about I&W over RTL, except, maybe, the addition of keyboards, and the polished execution and production.   I don't want to get into the obvious arguments, I simply want to understand the criteria and how they differ from my own

It's difficult for me to accept that a statement like that is coming from a musician. In fact there are so many differences that I wouldn't know where to begin ... I&W is more complex than RTL in almost every aspect I can think of.

^ I'll examine them in detail first ... I have the guitar transcription books for both albums.

I don't have many transcription books either ... I simply collect guitar magazines which usually contain transcriptions of a couple of songs from various genres, and these books:

Metallica - Ride the Lightning
Metallica - Master of Puppets
Steve Vai - Alien Love Secrets
Van Halen - 5150
Dream Theater - Images & Words

Maybe you don't need such books if you have perfect pitch ... but even then it's nice to see the riffs "spelled out" for you.