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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 29963
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Posted: January 06 2015 at 02:04 |
progrockdeepcuts wrote:
Tull are my all-time favorite band, Genesis don't even come close for me. No one does.
To be fair, I had a period where I LOVED Genesis. I must've played those Gabriel albums everyday for about 2 years in high school; they WERE my favorite band for a time. I wore myself out and now they do nothing for me.
When it comes down to it, comparing one bad to another and fighting over which is 'better' is just ridiculous; truly it gets us nowhere. I prefer listening to the tamed noises that one band make over the one that another makes. Perhaps we should all just listen to what we like. Trying to convince others is just a wasted exercise and all it succeeds in is making some people angry and defensive. I REALLY think it's unfair to criticize a group of fans of a particular band or try to rationalize WHY they like what they do. We like what we like.
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yep of course prog is not a football match but PA makes it look like that at times 
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 29963
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Posted: January 06 2015 at 02:00 |
manofmystery wrote:
Why can't Genesis fan boys behave more like DT fan boys and bugger off? Sick of this lackluster band dominating this genre. It's good prog buried under awful singing from a guy in a stupid flower costume. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop building it into something it's not. To be fair Jethro Tull is one of my favorite bands of all time but there's absolutely no doubt they made much more interesting music.
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progrockdeepcuts
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 14 2013
Location: West Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 394
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Posted: January 06 2015 at 00:27 |
Tull are my all-time favorite band, Genesis don't even come close for me. No one does.
To be fair, I had a period where I LOVED Genesis. I must've played those Gabriel albums everyday for about 2 years in high school; they WERE my favorite band for a time. I wore myself out and now they do nothing for me.
When it comes down to it, comparing one bad to another and fighting over which is 'better' is just ridiculous; truly it gets us nowhere. I prefer listening to the tamed noises that one band make over the one that another makes. Perhaps we should all just listen to what we like. Trying to convince others is just a wasted exercise and all it succeeds in is making some people angry and defensive. I REALLY think it's unfair to criticize a group of fans of a particular band or try to rationalize WHY they like what they do. We like what we like.
Edited by progrockdeepcuts - January 06 2015 at 00:54
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Listen to older shows here: mixcloud.com/progrockdeepcuts/
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
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Points: 18006
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 20:43 |
^ Yea pretty much this......sometimes I wonder if IA really thought twice about TAAB. One 20 minute song, ok....but Side 2 also....mehhh
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 20:42 |
bhikkhu wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I love Tull, but honestly, after a few minutes I get bored of this pastoral sound, no matter how much I love TAAB, I haven't listened the whole album in decades without getting sleepy.
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Funny, I've never listened to it without getting sleepy. 
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True.
I rather listen the live versions where they play it in 5 or 10 minutes
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 05 2015 at 21:03
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 20:39 |
Dellinger wrote:
Oh well, the thing for me, is that none of those albums is really a 5 star masterpiece. All of them have at least one song that I really dislike. The closest album for me would be Selling England by the Pound, and even that one has Battle of Epping Forest. Also Tresspass is really close, but even though that one doesn't have any song that I really dislike, it doesn't have such highlights on it as the next albums would have. |
Well, it's a matter of opinions.
I don't believe an album has to be perfect to be a masterpiece. It may have 1 or 2 songs that I dislike, but I value many other things
1.- Balance 2.- Transcendence 3.- Lyrics 4.- Performance 5.- Factor X
For me, every Genesis album except SEBTP have a perfect balance. all are transcendental for Prog, all have brilliant lyrics, the performances are impeccable, but overall...The music creates emotions on me.
CTTE is a masterpíece, but doesn't move me in the way Fountain of Salmacis, In the Cage or Can Utilitty move me.
Relayer is a super album, technically impeccable (Moraz is a genius), but leaves me cold in the field of emotion.
Thick as a Brick has a BRILLIANT intro, the lyrics are amazing, but after 10 minutes they start to repeat themselves.
Genesis did well avoiding endless epics, because too much time on your hands lead to repetition, the only real epic (Suppers Ready) is more a collection of different songs united only by a concept and that was brilliant..I love Fountain of Salmacis, and it lasts exactly as much as it should last..The organ intro impresses me because they don't repeat it 10 times in the song.
That's where the greatness of Genesius rests, they did what they needed to do, not more, nobiody tries to be a star, they leave their egos behind and play for the band, to the point that people believed Hackett was just a good guitar player until he left the band and did what he wanted to do.
Genesis was a team, few bands managed this.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 18006
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 20:35 |
manofmystery wrote:
Why can't Genesis fan boys behave more like DT fan boys and bugger off? Sick of this lackluster band dominating this genre. It's good prog buried under awful singing from a guy in a stupid flower costume. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop building it into something it's not. To be fair Jethro Tull is one of my favorite bands of all time but there's absolutely no doubt they made much more interesting music.
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I am not any band fanboy, and could careless for this music......I only come here to see what pics you put in your signature. Next......
Edited by Catcher10 - January 05 2015 at 20:35
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Dellinger
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12821
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 20:27 |
Catcher10 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
Who cares if this is about pop, prog, disco, country, jazz, zydeco, symphonic Genesis...... |
I care.
Not because of the genre, but because IMHO Genesis did bad boring adult contemporary POP.
Give me Rumors by Fleetwood Mac and I don't give a damn about the genre because it's a PERFECT album, but Invisible Touch is a shame and Illegal Alien is an insult to the name of the band.
Sti<span style="line-height: 1.4; font-size: 13px;">ll, what Genesis did between FGTTR (Included) and ATOTT is enough to grant rthem an easy win</span> |
Its your opinion and I respect that a lot....but I don't think that pop era of Genesis was boring or bad, IMO it is some pretty good music and productions. Illegal Alien is questionable I agree, but most pop is at a minimum. | I actually like many songs of pop era Genesis a lot. Perhaps they don't have they same absolute beauty that many of the classic era songs have, but they have some really good songs anyway.
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Dellinger
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 20:25 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Dellinger wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
It's funny how Micky tries to convince people this is about the Pop Genesis, when as a fact it's about Prog Genesis
A perfect streak like Trespass>>>>Nursery Cryme>>>>>Foxtrot>>>>>SEBTP>>>>>>The Lamb...Is simply unbeatable.
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Well, for me Pink Floyd beats that streak easily, with Dark Side, WYWH, Animals, and yes, I guess I can include Meddle and The Wall too (though I would have to ignore Obscured by Clouds). |
Then it's not a streak.
BTW: I would have to include
a) Trespass b) Nursery (13) c) Foxtrot (5) d) SEBTP (3) e) The Lamb (44) f) A Trick of the Tail (49) g) Wind & Wuthering
- No band has that 7 streak, not a single bad album - 2 albums <span style="font-size: 12.8000001907349px; line-height: 1.4;">in the top 5 of PA</span> <span style="font-size: 12.8000001907349px; line-height: 1.4;">- 5 in the top 50</span> <span style="font-size: 12.8000001907349px; line-height: 1.4;">- 6 in the top 126</span> <span style="font-size: 12.8000001907349px; line-height: 1.4;">- The 7 in the top 250</span> <span style="font-size: 12.8000001907349px; line-height: 1.4;">- 7 Continuous albums with an average over 4 stars</span> <span style="font-size: 12.8000001907349px; line-height: 1.4;"> </span> <span style="font-size: 12.8000001907349px; line-height: 1.4;">That hasn't been beaten, </span><span style="line-height: 14.3360004425049px;">despite</span><span style="font-size: 12.8000001907349px; line-height: 1.4;"> the haters and the Yes fanboys </span>
| Oh well, the thing for me, is that none of those albums is really a 5 star masterpiece. All of them have at least one song that I really dislike. The closest album for me would be Selling England by the Pound, and even that one has Battle of Epping Forest. Also Tresspass is really close, but even though that one doesn't have any song that I really dislike, it doesn't have such highlights on it as the next albums would have.
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 06 2006
Location: A² Michigan
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Points: 5109
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 20:09 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I love Tull, but honestly, after a few minutes I get bored of this pastoral sound, no matter how much I love TAAB, I haven't listened the whole album in decades without getting sleepy.
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Funny, I've never listened to it without getting sleepy. 
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proggman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 14 2013
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 1458
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 19:23 |
Genesis.
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When he rides, my fears subside. For darkness turns once more to light. Through the skies, his white horse flies. To find a land beyond the night.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 18:59 |
manofmystery wrote:
Sick of this lackluster band dominating this genre. It's good prog buried under awful singing from a guy in a stupid flower costume. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop building it into something it's not. |
Well...For the vast majority of Prog listeners in the planet Genesis is the non plus ultra of Prog
Not because Gabriel or Hackett or Banks, but because the music they did together
manofmystery wrote:
To be fair Jethro Tull is one of my favorite bands of all time but there's absolutely no doubt they made much more interesting music.
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Interesting for you.....This is a free forum.
I love Tull, but honestly, after a few minutes I get bored of this pastoral sound, no matter how much I love TAAB, I haven't listened the whole album in decades without getting sleepy.
Yesterday I got my copy of Marsbeli Kronikak II...Now that's Prog Folk of the best kind
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 18:28 |
Why can't Genesis fan boys behave more like DT fan boys and bugger off? Sick of this lackluster band dominating this genre. It's good prog buried under awful singing from a guy in a stupid flower costume. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop building it into something it's not. To be fair Jethro Tull is one of my favorite bands of all time but there's absolutely no doubt they made much more interesting music.
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 Time always wins.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 18006
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 17:58 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
Who cares if this is about pop, prog, disco, country, jazz, zydeco, symphonic Genesis...... |
I care.
Not because of the genre, but because IMHO Genesis did bad boring adult contemporary POP.
Give me Rumors by Fleetwood Mac and I don't give a damn about the genre because it's a PERFECT album, but Invisible Touch is a shame and Illegal Alien is an insult to the name of the band.
Still, what Genesis did between FGTTR (Included) and ATOTT is enough to grant rthem an easy win |
Its your opinion and I respect that a lot....but I don't think that pop era of Genesis was boring or bad, IMO it is some pretty good music and productions. Illegal Alien is questionable I agree, but most pop is at a minimum.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 17:45 |
Catcher10 wrote:
Who cares if this is about pop, prog, disco, country, jazz, zydeco, symphonic Genesis...... |
I care.
Not because of the genre, but because IMHO Genesis did bad boring adult contemporary POP.
Give me Rumors by Fleetwood Mac and I don't give a damn about the genre because it's a PERFECT album, but Invisible Touch is a shame and Illegal Alien is an insult to the name of the band.
Still, what Genesis did between FGTTR (Included) and ATOTT is enough to grant rthem an easy win
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 17:41 |
SteveG wrote:
^The funny thing to me about the whole Genesis vs Tull deal is that Tull's TAAB ranks just a hair under Yes' CTTE for the best Prog album ever made, IMHO. If Tull had Rick Wakeman instead of John Evan, the ranking would be reversed. |
Since I'm here, SEBTP, CTTE and Thick as a Brick have been all in first place for some time
The three albums are masterpieces and having an average of 0.01 of difference on several thousand reviews is minimal.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20617
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 17:21 |
^The funny thing to me about the whole Genesis vs Tull deal is that Tull's TAAB ranks just a hair under Yes' CTTE for the best Prog album ever made, IMHO. If Tull had Rick Wakeman instead of John Evan, the ranking would be reversed.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
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Points: 18006
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 17:13 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
It's funny how Micky tries to convince people this is about the Pop Genesis, when as a fact it's about Prog Genesis
A perfect streak like Trespass>>>>Nursery Cryme>>>>>Foxtrot>>>>>SEBTP>>>>>>The Lamb...Is simply unbeatable.
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Who cares if this is about pop, prog, disco, country, jazz, zydeco, symphonic Genesis......I love early Tull, Aqualung is one of the best albums ever recorded by either.....but the whole Genesis catalog against the whole Tull catalog, it's shameful how bad Genesis mops the floor with Tull. To me this whole poll thing is about career vs career and catalog vs catalog...not a couple yrs here and there and cherry picking a few albums. Genesis for me.......next
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20617
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 16:35 |
^Two Clappys, Richard. Spot on!

Edited by SteveG - January 05 2015 at 16:35
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 29963
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Posted: January 05 2015 at 16:11 |
Genesis by several country miles
Tull like Floyd had strong blues roots but prog for me was about leaving that American thing behind and embracing European classical music. Genesis , ELP and Yes defined prog not Tull or Floyd in my view. Anderson though in trying to parody these bands ended up making one of the best prog albums ever. Very ironic to say the least. Floyd finally joined the band wagon with the brilliant Wish You Were Here but I don't see them as being the pioneers that Genesis were.
All very much IMO. 
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