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Magical Mystery Review |
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JD ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 07 2009 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 18446 |
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Since we've beat the argument of Objectivity vs Subjectivity in reviews pretty much to death, I had another thought on the whole "review debate". Is there value in, is it appropriate to, would you want an air of mystery to a review so as to entice you into giving the music a listen to or do you want the review detailed out so much that you know already what you are about to hear? You may begin...
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Necrotica ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Colaborator Joined: July 28 2015 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 3407 |
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Honestly, I think they both have their place. In the sense that I would rather read/hear a more mysterious or nebulous review if I haven't heard the record yet; on the other hand, I'll read a more detailed review - one with timestamps (i.e. "this part at 2:15...") especially - if I've already heard the album, so I can get another perspective on what I've listened to and analyzed.
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Take me down, to the underground
Won't you take me down, to the underground Why oh why, there is no light And if I can't sleep, can you hold my life https://www.youtube.com/@CocoonMasterBrendan-wh3sd |
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15316 |
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I think there's enough magic and mystery in music itself that no review will ever manage to make me know already what I'm about to hear, however hard it may try. Which is good because reviews cannot destroy the magic. Go on reviewing then! PS: I knew a fellow who studied composition. He seriously thought all relevant information on music is on the score sheet, and he'd enjoy reading the score sheet as much as actually listening to the music. I never bought that. Music is for the ears. But to each their own!
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 21476 |
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High level reviews work for me, I zone out with paragraphs of detailed track by track analysis.
Two words will suck me in, bassoon and cello. |
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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JD ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 07 2009 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 18446 |
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Not being a musician myself I would never presume to know what any musician can hear in their head when looking at a score, but I do know educated musicians/composers who have said they know what it would sound like. That being said, there is no way they could hear the 'Interpretation' of the composition. I think in that we agree.
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mickcoxinha ![]() Forum Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: January 03 2008 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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If by detailed is trying to "narrate" the song, like "at 2:47 starts an organ melody", I prefer less detailed. From almost 20 years of experience reading reviews here, it is more useful to me when they give a higher level impression and comparison with similar albuns/bands.
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Heart of the Matter ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 01 2020 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 3621 |
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IMO a review should be a short piece of prose gaining attention for the music itself, not for the writer. If the "magical mistery" style helps to honestly connect new listeners with the music, then it worth the while. People need to discover things by themselves, so, a bit of suggestion can do the trick better than abounding details, leaving space for reader's imagination.
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Hugh Manatee ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 07 2021 Location: The Barricades Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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A little from column A, a little from column B. It's all good (until someone loses an eye).
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I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of uncertain seas |
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David_D ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15602 |
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That's certainly what my own experience tells me, but I think of a review as a piece of entertainment as well, so I'd say that it's very fine with some mystery in it, too. - Which by the way is something I actually try to accomplish with my PA posts in general, and there're some circumstances to help me very much with it.
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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octopus-4 ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14712 |
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I would quote Frank Zappa about "Speaking of music..." Even the most possible detailed description of a track can't replace its emotional subjective impact. So, knowing what to expect doesn't make a big difference
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 46179 |
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nicely put
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Psychedelic Paul ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Offline Points: 44579 |
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I like album reviews to be a magical mystery tour, especially if they include a liberal sprinkling of humour too.
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18264 |
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Hi, I don't know, or am sure what you are requesting. A review, for me, is about the over all picture, however, as in film, there are always too many details that make it worthwhile, or too many things that hurt it. Thus a review, for sure, needs to be fair and see how it can attract folks. One important factor ... what is the point of criticizing something badly ... instead of ignoring it? If you are mainly jumping on it to debunk fans, that's one thing, but at that point a review is ridiculous anyway, because most fans don't even read these things ... !!! The mentality of "fan", is strongly opposed to the quasi-intellectual point of view that many reviews take. I'm more comfortable discussing film, that music, more often than not. And the reason why is simple. Film shows you what the camera has done, what the contrasts are, and sometimes, even tells you a story, which these days, is not as important as Hollywood made it out to be for a long time ... just ask Robert Altman! Too many rock reviews for me, are about how it sounds compared to someone else ... I refuse to do that, because this is about this band (or this film) and not an idea of mine. If you. or I, are criticizing it, many times it is because THEY DID IT, and you and I DIDN'T! That's not an issue for me, although I might have fun with Godard, by asking dumb questions ... why did the camera go left and the folks are on the right ... and you already know his answer ... because they were bored and no audience is interesting in boredom! And you think to yourself ... doesn't make sense ... why make a film and the characters are not important but the camera going out on its walkabout is better, and more interesting ... what film are we seeing anyway? This, is hard, and not quite seen in rock music, although it is my theory that many of the bands that "think" they are hip, are just putting on an act for the commerciality of it all ... if you were Picasso, or Godard for that matter, why would you bother considering anyone else, when you have more to work with than you can even figure out how to use? Most rock music, for me, is copy and carbon copy. For me, there is absolutely no reason to review any of that material whatsoever, although many will say I'm being condescending because I was born into a house of literature, and a famous writer, and have an intimate knowledge of "fame" and it's goods and bad stuff. In the end, you know that not all that literature is sh*t, and that is my attitude about a lot of music and the arts, however, copies and carbon copies, is another matter entirely that we refuse to take on, and instead create another sub-division for these things. But remember one thing ... music for me, is just another movie in my mind, so something with more "context" is always a preference, and thus a lot of bands fall of the listing s for me very quickly, as they are all (mostly) about the lyrics, that really are not very good, but they sound good! That's not enough for me, specially a well read and educated person ... you always want more, not just the same thing, just like all those books. So if the music has no "fly" in it, I tend to fall off quickly, because most of those singer are not very good about the use of their words ... it may sound fine with their music in the background, but a "soul" or "third dimension" is missing, and it is much more visible than we give it credit for!
Edited by moshkito - March 23 2022 at 06:35 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Manuel ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 09 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13481 |
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I personally don’t see it that way. To decide if I’ll give a try to a new band/album, I mainly go for the artists, or if I don’t know them, for a reviewer who I’ve known before and find his opinions are close to my taste. Thankfully, there are many ways to sample the music these days, which is the main medium for me to buy and album. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but that is also expected.
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18264 |
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Hi, I don't know ... when I listen to Peter Hammill, I doubt that he is worried about "interpretation" and I would say the same about Roy Harper, and even the late Kevin Ayers. Their words were about how they felt and there is no "interpretation" on them, except what we assign to it. And Roy, specifically, will probably say ... I don't care what it sounds like ... it's what came out when I was doing it! In his case, it was about his visualization/continuity of what he felt in words ... and "interpretation" would be something that were done, IF (AND WHEN) IT WAS WRITTEN ON PAPER and someone else was going to do it. Then, I would say an interpretation would be interesting, as it is for many actors on stage, although the best, after some rehearsals, don't give a damn about interpretation ... it's "who they are" that matters or the audience will fall asleep. However, that is not to say that "many" interpretations don't work ... heck, we can look at Shakespeare, and see a few films, and to say that Olivier was better than Burton, or Gielgud, or McKellen ... they all did beautifully and it came out great. I sincerely doubt that the very creator of the work will EVER worry about it, although we know that many change their words for many reasons ... Bob Dylan is well known for that, at least was for a long time.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Archisorcerus ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Online Points: 2721 |
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Both can be cool. It depends on many things. If the reviewer deems an album very special, s/he might make a thorough analysis of it; howbeit, s/he can also add a world of mysteries to it to "muse" (see its archaic meaning) the potential prospective listeners.
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Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37993 |
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I rarely see spoiler warnings to go with album reviews.
Some reviews, and posts, I find far too enigmatic. Generally, if I like a sense of mystery in a review, then it comes from the expression of the reviewer sharing his or her sense of mystery that comes from listening to the album. I do like many reviewers that take me on a trip-- a magical mystery tour perhaps. I would not expect reading the review to take me on the same trip as listening to the album. There are exceptions to every rule (or most), and it depends on the writer. I can enjoy a review for is intrinsic values without ever hearing the album or watching the film. I like to read and reviews can be very artistic. Generally I don't like a lot of details, I will get nuances and detail from listening that I won't from reading, and every reader interprets the music rather uniquely. I won't be hearing it exactly the same as the reviewer or likely making exactly the same associations. People have different brains and experiences/ physiological and psychological differences. What I often like in reviews are apt comparisons to music. Sometimes I have seen poor reviews (and comments) that will compare the album being reviewed to a very different album stylistically by a very different act. This strange name-dropping is sometimes to make a point. Like why is this cosmic jazz-fusion album included as Prog when this very stylistically dissimilar album is not? I like to see like compared to like, as well as pointing out relevant contrasts. One thing I like in reviews very much is if people compare to and mention similar albums to the one being reviewed. That helps me to draw comparison points to see if I might like this and to find more to like if I like this. More pertinently, I want to get a a good idea from a review about what I can/ should expect even if no amount of details substitute for hearing it or take away all mystery. One can have spoilers that would take away from the experience and there I would like more mystery. For instance, in one album I have which contains screams, knowing in advance to expect them and when to expect them would alter the experience (while I don't much like jump scares, if reading a horror film review, I don't want to be told when to expect it). Knowing to expect at sometime could add to the suspense. Too much detail can spoil certain surprises and some of the mystery. So, as with film and book reviews one is often careful with spoilers, it can be the same with music. Describe the genres it covers and stylistic attributes, mention similar music, the kind of emotions it evokes in the listener. Is it light, is it dark, is it complex, is it sad etc. I like to see various descriptors of the music (stylistic attributes, moods etc.), but some reviews try to relate the sounds too much (like when an instruments comes in etc., I can hear that by listening). A general overview of styles and attributes and similar albums, plus I like to know people favourite tracks if appropriate, plus a sprinkling of humour works for me. And I do like those reviews that bring me along for a ride on that reviewers personal journey. Maybe my journey will be very different, but I can still appreciate that ride. Edited by Logan - March 23 2022 at 07:03 |
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"Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967).
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Guldbamsen ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
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Rather depends on the writer in question methinks.
Some of us have a hard time writing anything without some sort of ‘mystery’ within…especially when it comes to music. |
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18264 |
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Hi, Strange. I don't think I have ever seen you doing this when discussing film. Another comment above is strange to me as well. (I would not expect reading the review to take me on the same trip as listening to the album.) ... What if the piece of music is THE SNOW GOOSE. Do you not "follow" a sort of imaginary story of the music with it? It's a complete film for me! And well thought out at that!
My time and place was around theater and film that used "screams" as a form of liberation and we can go back to Marlon Brando screaming STTTTTTTTELLLLLLLLLLLLA and a lot of English Theater that also went on to expose a new form of expression in theater, that IMMEDIATELY went to rock music, and the late 60's was full of it. When I heard PH do these, it didn't scare me, it only made it clear that the theatrical/emotional content was even stronger and thus, for an audience, much more intentfull and meaningful. I have a feeling that rock audiences, being "song" and "top hits" oriented could not relate to the depths of theater and film that was around, which became very visible later. It is a fair point what you say, though, although I am not a great fan of the horror genre, even though I have watched more Christopher Lee and Peter Cushing films than most ... they were both consumate and excellent actors who worked very well together and the contrasts were totally far out to watch ... + and - on the same second and moment!
I don't have a favorite track, EVER, because I love the music, not one song more than another. To me these are not songs. They are a life in living, and I don't think that this person or that person is a favorite of mine more than others ... it's not a distinction that I learned from literature, and film, and later, music. And, specially, since I am more attuned to the artistic end of it all, my preference is not for song as much as it is for the completeness of it, and the same goes for a film ... sort of like taking one moment out of it and thinking it is better than the rest of the film ... which, of course, if you take it out, probably makes the film poor. You do that to David Lean and you trash a film. I look at an album the same way ... I don't take out its stomach for being better than its lungs, whatever. It's about the whole thing and what it all means to me. The best example I have is my review of ITCOTKC where I made an effort to show how all the pieces of the album were such an incredible SNAPSHOT/PHOTOGRAPH of the late 60's ... but because we are 50+ years removed from it, the quotidian content in it, is taken out and turned the whole thing into songs, that not only don't sit well together, they also confuse the theme and make the title seem bizarre altogether. I was there during that time, and things like Neil Young, CSN&Y, Country Joe, Chicago, Jefferson Airplane, The Doors (specially!!!) and many others were highly meaningful to my view of things ... in fact, after them in the early 70's I went to Europe for music that better explained and detailed how I felt since a lot of these things in America were being killed by a media that we ended up believing and sucking up to (and STILL DO!) with processes and things that they used to make us think that something was right and better, and it showed in sales! Humor, for me, is different, and I have a hard time, for example, with "high humor" (Moliere in literature) which to me is not funny, and even Shakespeare, that hides so much trashy humor and many times is downright lewd. By the time I saw American TV (was 15 and did not speak English), it was not funny, even as just stand up or just burlesque stuff ... and I could tell right away it was depending on laughs, that were not real to make us think it was funny, because some of the stuff and comments, did NOT FIT the reaction of the actor on the stage/TV at all ... it was obviously fake, and we still think it is funny, and then say that Ernie Kovacs and Jonathan Winters were weird ... when they were actually making fun of the plastic side of the whole thing! As did Tom Lehrer and the music in a lot of cartoons. Well, sorry to lie. I have one favorite ... I love Marvin the Martian, and Chuck Jones and Spike Milligan are probably the only two "heroes" I have in my life. Of course I love AD2, Can, TD, KS, but while they were vastly influential, they are just a shade below those two ... and the funny thing is the two "comedians" were not just being funny ... they were totally out there ... and it prevented comparisons to anything ... and it is one of the reasons why I do NOT compare films a whole lot, or compare music a whole lot. They all have a single "personality" that is difficult to describe, but beautiful to watch and listen to ... and I will stop here!
Edited by moshkito - March 24 2022 at 06:44 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37993 |
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Hey Pedro, hope things are well with you. Interesting, I often do that when discussing film, maybe more-so face-to-face, however, depending upon how the discussion goes. And in papers on film "back in the day" I would, depending upon my objective/ analysis. I commonly think about comparisons between films, albums, individual tracks, scenes. I think about genres. I think about how a film or album fits in the oeuvre, if I know the other work by the act/composer or writer/director...
With The Snow Goose I know the Paul Gallico story it is based on, if I didn't it would likely not take me on quite the same trip. And I don't think my trip would be quite the same as another reviewers, of the band, of the writer. Regarding horror, it is so diverse. I'm more of a fan of films and novels labelled horror than the genre per se, I might say. I love folk horror a la The Wicker Man (the original) which I would compare to other folk horror films such as The Apostle, the limited TV series The Third Day, Midsommar etc. and classic British folk horror such as Blood on Satan's Claw and The Witchfinder General. I have compared at this forum certain aesthetics of the modern horror film Under the Skin with 2001: A Space Odyssey, and I have compared 2001 with Solaris. I think I do it quite a lot, but it often does depend on how the conversation goes with others. Was talking film with my brother the other day and recommending films that I think he might like based on his tastes/ based on specific films that he likes. I do like it commonly when people tailor their recommendations to an individual's tastes in discussion, but that's taking me to another topic as reviews tend to be aimed at more general audiences (even if niche audiences as I would expect the reviews to be different depending on the kind of crowds you are typically addressing).. Shrill screams, jump-scares, going from very soft where you turn the music up to sudden loudness are shocks I find in various albums (think the story of Haydn's Surprise Symphony) and maybe some of those should come with warnings, but I don't know that I would want the surprise to be spoiled. Like in a a review someone writes, "Warning, at three minutes and six seconds in of such-and-such, there is a scream so shrill, so terrifying, that it literally caused me to spill my hot chocolate onto my trousers, and now I have to wash them -- sad face, sad face." Warnings of gratuitous language and adult themes are helpful, like if one is playing it in polite company and it gratuitously drops the B bomb (Belgium to be precise)* Douglas Adams readers at least will likely know what I am talking about. I wrote in a review for Art Zoyd's Haxan something like "my ears my ears" since it got very loud on me and it shocked me (not as much as an electric eel down my trousers might). Regarding enjoying particular songs or movements or pieces, or even albums in a discography, or films in a filmography or scenes in a film particularly, I can appreciate that different people enjoy and approach music differently, and I like these differences to be expressed across diverse views. Maybe I should have said if applicable and appropriate (but I meant to speak to a diversity of approaches, and that no one way is THE right way by my thinking). I often do like reviews to reflect on someone's personality and individual experience. My experience will not be quite the same when listening, but I can still enjoy the experience they relate often (quite often I can't if I cant relate to it or find it to be a downer, like complaining). The journey a review takes me on will not be quite the same journey as it takes other one, just as the journey an album takes me on will not be identical to another due to experiential, psychological and other differences. If I play the same album at another time, i wouldn't expect it to be the same journey. I am one who likes to hear about preferred tracks if applicable, with descriptors (other descriptors are more important o me than how much one likes it generally that describe the music) partially as I do often use youtube these days to start with certain tracks rather than from the beginning. As a teen I made mix tapes too. With various albums I first got into a song, for instance with Nick Drake it was "River Man" -- that and Fruit Tree remain my faves from the album its off. With Swans, which is a current favourite, it was "Helpless Child" but now I love all of Soundtracks for the Blind (and The Sound would have done it too). With Cardiacs it was "Dirty Boy" of Sing to God that worked, then got into the whole album, then started to prefer earlier albums on the whole, especially On Land and in the Sea. In many cases, it's not about individual tracks but the whole, but there are many albums where I have favourite tracks and many artists where I have favourite albums in the discography. I don't have to justify that as you don't justify to your history with music, we are all different, and one will find similarities too, and I hope people can respect those differences (not all differences, mind you). I tend to be quite holistic actually, and even when it comes to posts I rarely like breaking them up or using bits and pieces as I like to appreciate those as a wholeness. With albums, novels, films, and essays I commonly do treat it as a whole, and more than just the sum of its parts. It depends, maybe I should have started the morning with a coffee rather than a post (same thing I did with that post you quoted from). Appreciating a track in the context of an album can be considerably different than hearing it in a , say, random shuffle, but both have value to me. Listening to idiosyncratic songs taken off albums on university radio probably had some effect.
Edited by Logan - March 24 2022 at 11:02 |
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"Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967).
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