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PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?

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Awesoreno View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2024 at 00:43
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Over the years I have become less enthusiastic about distinguishing between "Prog" and "progressive". Back when I created Progfreak.com that was one of the main novelties in the database, but over the years people lost interest, and it ultimately is too "nit-picky" IMHO versus the benefits. Earlier this year we reverted back to a simple "non-prog/prog-adjacent/prog" classification and I think that is sufficient. The needed flexibility emerges from the combination of this classification with all the other tags and genres. 

In other words, I think there is no fundamental difference between "Prog" and "progressive". But there is a big difference between "Prog Rock" and "Prog Classical". We could call the latter just "progressive classical" to emphasize that it is stylistically very different from "Prog Rock", but that difference is already expressed by "Rock" versus "Classical".

"Prog" is a term we use for a quality of the music that is difficult to articulate. I'm reminded of Ola Englund's term "chug". He's a metal guitarist and has become (im)famous for his "Chug Projects", and you can look up his videos on YouTube where he tests various guitar amps and pedals for whether they "chug". IMHO the word is great, and watching the video you quickly know what he means by it and can then recognise it in the music you listen to without ever being able to define it verbally.

We know when something is "prog", and it is short for "progressive" and essentially there is no difference. Most of us got familiar with the term through classic prog rock releases, but we can also recognize it in other genres or styles of music which are very different from 60s/70s rock. I vote for still calling it "prog", even in classical music, art music, atonal noise, or, indeed jazz-rock fusion. Smile
I get what you're saying, but doing away with the "prog" vs. "progressive" makes it harder for me to explain certain groups/movements than I'm used to. Because I think distinguishing between "prog" as a stylistic term (difficult as it is to nail down) and "progressive" as a term that takes into account the context of the time when the music was recorded/released is important. King Crimson in the 70s was clearly "prog," and progressive in terms of popular music of the time. Whereas Radiohead was progressive for the time, but not really "prog" stylistically, and Flower Kings is undoubtedly "prog" but not progressive at all.
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2024 at 02:33
^One might not be personally enthusiastic about distinguishing between "Prog" and progressive. Its understandable. But without that distinction Prog Archives would have to remove about 80-90% of its bands and artists. Surely most of us know when something is "Prog", as in short for "progressive". But that only covers a small percentage of the music on PA. Radiohead is a perfect example. When I listen to Kid A or In Rainbows I don't hear "Prog" as in short for "progressive". Much like say... Can, Tortoise or Zappa, I hear music related to rock that is progressive in its approach. A lot of proggers don't associate Krautrock, Post Rock of Jazz Rock (etc...) with Prog as such. I'm one of them myself. But they all represent variations of a progressive approach to what rock music can be and mean. Without being the genre "Prog Rock". That's why I think they have a natural place in the Prog Archives. Even without actually being Prog.

(Edit: in a nutshell I'm basically agreeing with Awesoreno)

Edited by Saperlipopette! - September 22 2024 at 09:28
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David_D View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2024 at 03:35

"prog music" looks even better to me as a short form of "Progressive Rock and Prog-related music".


Edited by David_D - September 22 2024 at 04:01
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2024 at 04:20

Thank you, guys, because whatever you might think of my posts here, I've come more in terms with the term "prog music" and the way ProgArchives looks today. Handshake
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2024 at 04:56
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

PA is still the best prog website for me.

The only change I would recommend is Paul needs a VIP status.

Im afraid, I might consider him more like a popper than a progger. Big smile

One more thing to this, as usually, I prefer quality over quantity. Wink


Edited by David_D - September 22 2024 at 05:26
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2024 at 15:42
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Thank you, guys, because whatever you might think of my posts here, I've come more in terms with the term "prog music" and the way ProgArchives looks today. Handshake

It's all good!!  I really enjoy the open banter amongst the many members of the PA community, who span the globe!!  

Trying to define "progressive rock" is about as hopeless as trying to define "jazz."  We know it when we hear it! 

Now, please enjoy some of my favorite jazz-rock fusion!  This song ran through my head when I was in Istanbul in 1979.   RIP John Goodsall, my friend. 


I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2024 at 19:42
Hey, Stack, speaking of John Goodsall (and Patrick Moraz), ever seen this?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2024 at 19:49
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Thank you, guys, because whatever you might think of my posts here, I've come more in terms with the term "prog music" and the way ProgArchives looks today. Handshake

It's all good!!  I really enjoy the open banter amongst the many members of the PA community, who span the globe!!  

Trying to define "progressive rock" is about as hopeless as trying to define "jazz."  We know it when we hear it! 

Now, please enjoy some of my favorite jazz-rock fusion!  This song ran through my head when I was in Istanbul in 1979.   RIP John Goodsall, my friend. 

Great track. 

My favourite archetypal jazz-rock track of all time, in the meaning of jazz-rock as part of prog, is Cat in Clark's Shoes by Gong.



Edited by Starshiper - September 23 2024 at 01:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2024 at 23:05
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Basically as Mike said, I say that Prog and JRF intersect, and they overlap. It all is or all isn't presents a false dichotomy. There's a spectrum etc.

To be most precise, I'd say:

Artists make albums, and then we try to classify them. We can do that from different genre perspectives and multi-tagged them. So actually, it's about multi-tagging - but it's also an expression of different influences.


Edited by David_D - September 22 2024 at 23:27
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2024 at 00:40
At AP we use multi-tagging, and not only that, but with each tag assignment you can specify a level, to indicate whether that tag is only a minor influence (low level) or a major or even dominant part of the music. RYM does that to some extent (they have primary/secondary genres and descriptors). What we also do at AP (and what no other website is doing AFAIK) is to optionally take it down to the track level, which few users do since it's a lot of work, but it can be helpful sometimes to indicate that some tag on a release is only featured in a few tracks. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2024 at 01:27
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Basically as Mike said, I say that Prog and JRF intersect, and they overlap. It all is or all isn't presents a false dichotomy. There's a spectrum etc.

To be most precise, I'd say:

Artists make albums, and then we try to classify them. We can do that from different genre perspectives and multi-tagged them. So actually, it's about multi-tagging - but it's also an expression of different influences.
I like that PA doesn't have a multi-tag system since this is now something unique, because now all other music websites have a multi-tag system, and many of those tags people put are meaningless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2024 at 01:31
Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Basically as Mike said, I say that Prog and JRF intersect, and they overlap. It all is or all isn't presents a false dichotomy. There's a spectrum etc.

To be most precise, I'd say:

Artists make albums, and then we try to classify them. We can do that from different genre perspectives and multi-tagged them. So actually, it's about multi-tagging - but it's also an expression of different influences.
I like that PA doesn't have a multi-tag system since this is now something unique, because now all other music websites have a multi-tag system, and many of those tags people put are meaningless.

Multiple tags is a good thing, especially when there are artists that change genre, experiment, try new things, or go with the trends of the time and so on. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2024 at 01:53
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Basically as Mike said, I say that Prog and JRF intersect, and they overlap. It all is or all isn't presents a false dichotomy. There's a spectrum etc.

To be most precise, I'd say:

Artists make albums, and then we try to classify them. We can do that from different genre perspectives and multi-tagged them. So actually, it's about multi-tagging - but it's also an expression of different influences.
I like that PA doesn't have a multi-tag system since this is now something unique, because now all other music websites have a multi-tag system, and many of those tags people put are meaningless.

Multiple tags is a good thing, especially when there are artists that change genre, experiment, try new things, or go with the trends of the time and so on. 
I am aware of the advantages of multi-tagging. When I go to the PA database, however, to the entry of a band that is categorised as "symphonic prog," I know that it is prog-rock. On multi-tagged pages, I often see the prog-rock tag in line with, e.g., heavy metal, punk, alt rock, 'post rock,' and so on; needless to say, in most cases it has nothing to do with prog-rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2024 at 02:08
Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Basically as Mike said, I say that Prog and JRF intersect, and they overlap. It all is or all isn't presents a false dichotomy. There's a spectrum etc.

To be most precise, I'd say:

Artists make albums, and then we try to classify them. We can do that from different genre perspectives and multi-tagged them. So actually, it's about multi-tagging - but it's also an expression of different influences.
I like that PA doesn't have a multi-tag system since this is now something unique, because now all other music websites have a multi-tag system, and many of those tags people put are meaningless.

Multiple tags is a good thing, especially when there are artists that change genre, experiment, try new things, or go with the trends of the time and so on. 
I am aware of the advantages of multi-tagging. When I go to the PA database, however, to the entry of a band that is categorised as "symphonic prog," I know that it is prog-rock. On multi-tagged pages, I often see the prog-rock tag in line with, e.g., heavy metal, punk, alt rock, 'post rock,' and so on; needless to say, in most cases it has nothing to do with prog-rock.

The tags help to describe the music, that's all. 
I don't know what site are you talking about with "multi-tagged pages", I've never seen such a thing, it does not seem like a good idea. MMA and JMA have multi-tags, they more or less fixed this issue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2024 at 02:09
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
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as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2024 at 02:18
^^It would be unique to tag every single Kubrick film as horror because of The Shining too. Uniquely wrong:)

-Yep it's totally unique that PA labels Calling All Stations and Foxtrot as the same kind of music, and that a Miles Davis recording from April 1945 is filed under Jazz Rock/Fusion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2024 at 02:19
Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Basically as Mike said, I say that Prog and JRF intersect, and they overlap. It all is or all isn't presents a false dichotomy. There's a spectrum etc.

To be most precise, I'd say:

Artists make albums, and then we try to classify them. We can do that from different genre perspectives and multi-tagged them. So actually, it's about multi-tagging - but it's also an expression of different influences.
I like that PA doesn't have a multi-tag system since this is now something unique, because now all other music websites have a multi-tag system, and many of those tags people put are meaningless.

This post of mine was just meant as a methodological one, but then it can be pointed that with one-tag system, we have to classify according to the most prominent genre in an artist's work. So in that case, we have for instance enten to classify as Prog or JRF, and the dichotomy is not to avoid.

                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2024 at 02:22
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Basically as Mike said, I say that Prog and JRF intersect, and they overlap. It all is or all isn't presents a false dichotomy. There's a spectrum etc.

To be most precise, I'd say:

Artists make albums, and then we try to classify them. We can do that from different genre perspectives and multi-tagged them. So actually, it's about multi-tagging - but it's also an expression of different influences.
I like that PA doesn't have a multi-tag system since this is now something unique, because now all other music websites have a multi-tag system, and many of those tags people put are meaningless.

Multiple tags is a good thing, especially when there are artists that change genre, experiment, try new things, or go with the trends of the time and so on. 
I am aware of the advantages of multi-tagging. When I go to the PA database, however, to the entry of a band that is categorised as "symphonic prog," I know that it is prog-rock. On multi-tagged pages, I often see the prog-rock tag in line with, e.g., heavy metal, punk, alt rock, 'post rock,' and so on; needless to say, in most cases it has nothing to do with prog-rock.

The tags help to describe the music, that's all. 

Reviews are the thing that help in today's time of super multi-multiplied multi-tags.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2024 at 02:29
Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

The tags help to describe the music, that's all. 
Reviews are the thing that help in today's time of super multi-multiplied multi-tags.

"super multi-multiplied multi-tags"?! Really?! Disapprove

Have a look for instance at Miles Davis's page on JMA and then tell me how it's a bad thing what they've done there. 






Edited by Cristi - September 23 2024 at 02:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2024 at 02:55
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

-Yep it's totally unique that PA labels Calling All Stations and Foxtrot as the same kind of music, and that a Miles Davis recording from April 1945 is filed under Jazz Rock/Fusion.
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