Donovan: Early Prog or Just Psych?
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Topic: Donovan: Early Prog or Just Psych?
Posted By: SteveG
Subject: Donovan: Early Prog or Just Psych?
Date Posted: October 02 2014 at 17:59
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Sunshine Superman and Atlantis. Early prog or just psychedelic folk rock?
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Replies:
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: October 02 2014 at 20:37
| I've often thought it to be psychedelic folk rock ....because stylistically if you've noticed....it has that British 70's Rock feel. In some sense...I can hear Ray Davies singing "Sunshine Superman" and "Hurdy Gurdy Man" is reminiscent of The Beatles approach on Magical Mystery Tour. I personally can hear Ringo's snare drum effect on "Hurdy Gurdy". The effect that can be duplicated by placing a bath towel on the snare.and hitting it with a stick..which creates the snare drum sound on "Strawberry Fields" or "Helter Skelter". Donovan has the 60's British Psychedelic Pop sound and so maybe just elements within his songs cross paths with Prog. Not structure though. Only choice of sounds and oddball ideas. It's been too long since I've heard Atlantis and I can't comment. Many of the ideas in 60's British Psychedelic Pop filter through in Prog, but we could always point that detail out in many of the British artists of that decade and not just the usual suspects. |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: October 02 2014 at 21:13
| What do you consider specifically to be early Prog? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 03 2014 at 12:30
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^Good question. Very rudimentary. Not even proto as, you stated yourself, there is no clear form. Perhaps just avant or just oddball like the 2 minute speach that opens Atlantis to be followed by only a cascading repeating chorus.
Btw, the drummer on Hurdy Gurdy Man was John Bonham before he joined you know who. Just kidding, but it's a great imitation. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 08:05
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I never really thought of him as psych or prog though some of his songs certainly had some psych things in them.
I was lucky enough to have seen him play at a local folk club in Indiana about 15 years ago....nice show and we managed to get some autographs and meet him after the show. A very nice man. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 08:25
| I don't really see him as early prog, mind you he did support Yes on a tour once. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 08:31
He did indeed, and I attended one of those gigs (Rotterdam, NL, November 1977). His performance was not really appreciated by all those Yes fans, but somehow he seemed a nice guy. His music has little to do with prog as far as I can judge. Remotely proto-prog-related at its best... ------------- 
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chopper wrote:Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 09:01
| But of course Steve Hillage covered "Hurdy Gurdy Man" on "L" and a more spaced out Prog version of the song is featured on "Live Herald". Progressive rockers have a track record of re-doing old Psychedelic Pop songs. Has anyone ever noticed that? Maybe this is an insignificant point, but then what lies within the interest to do that? |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 09:48
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Donovan wrote outstanding melodies - waaaay better than Dylan in that respect. The words, however, were the trippy aspect of Donovan albums. The arrangements could've been used by the Bee Gees, early John Martyn, Nick Drake or Bill Fay.....very traditional UK folk-oriented.
------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 21:19
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I'm going to have to say just psych, with a dash of prog. ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 10 2014 at 00:58
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Just acid folk and psych pop. Not "early" prog at all as far as I can tell. ------------- What? |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: October 10 2014 at 12:40
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Not prog at all. I can't think of a proggy Donovan song. Repeating a chorus for several minutes on Atlantis does not prog make. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Friday13th
Date Posted: October 14 2014 at 00:20
Once again, SteveG surprises us all with his inciteful questioning of artists panned as not prog. Skeptics, he is right on target. I had heard Donovan for his connection with the Beatles and Nick Drake, but as I scrolled through his songs on itunes today, I came across a song titled "Get Thy Bearings."  I rushed back to my 4 disc King Crimson box set. Low and behold, King Crimson does live covers of not just Holst's "Mars", but Donovan's "Get Thy Bearings."  THEY CALL HIM PROTO-PROOOOOOOG! QUITE RIGHTLY! 
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Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: October 14 2014 at 07:51
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psych pop IMO, very very good psych pop
But I can't comment on his early to mid 1970s work which might have incorporated more prog
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: October 14 2014 at 09:08
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I got no clue what that Prog thing is or is not, but i love some of the stuf he did.
NB: Funny enough he sings co-lead with Alice Cooper on the album http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion_Dollar_Babies" rel="nofollow - Billion Dollar Babies .
Great track. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: AreYouHuman
Date Posted: October 14 2014 at 21:26
Some
good points already raised. Some of his
songs, especially Guinevere, could be considered prog folk.
------------- Caption: We tend to take ourselves a little too seriously. Silly human race! Yes is for everybody! |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: October 17 2014 at 07:40
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Guinevere? Prog folk? Donovan did many numbers that encroach on that sound, but Guinevere?
I've always dug Donovan - he got a bum rap in the 70s as he suddenly became the whipping boy of all that was "hippie" when that scene became passe. Many overlook his early 70s stuff like Open Road, HMS Donovan, Cosmic Wheels, and - especially - 7-Tease. All great folk rock albums, but about as prog as the Fairport Convention or Steeleye Span (oh, wait, they're both in PA!)....I guess even Donovan is prog rock.......really?
Maybe we can stretch a prog label over the Roy Harper and Kevin Coyne....I've always thought of PA as more than just a place for people who love music to hang out, it's also a place to discover new bands.....and Harper and Coyne really deserve a listen.
As do the Grateful Dead, but I've been down that road feeling bad one too many times. ------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: October 18 2014 at 00:40
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I have Open Road. That was good. "Rikki Tiki Tavi" was an obvious high point, but "Changes", "Curry Land", "Joe Bean's Theme", "Celtic Rock", "Roots Of Oak", and "New Years Resovolution" were good. A nice change of direction. I don't understand how that wasn't commercially successful. I might get HMS Donovan, but only because it seems like the easiest one to find. BTW, what do you guys think was Donovan's best work? A Gift From A Flower To A Garden is probably it for me, though The Hurdy Gurdy Man, Sunshine Superman, and Barabajagal could also qualify. With the latter, the 2005 version was a real eyeopener - so many cool outtakes and directions. ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 18 2014 at 22:19
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The Intergalactic Laxative is kind of a bowel movement prog song , no? ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: October 20 2014 at 13:26
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A Gift from a Flower is a good record, but you must take the concept in full in order to enjoy the record. It was an attempt by Donovan to get back to the acoustic folk of his earliest records, and it was also his first real concept record. The gift is the songs, the flower is the mother/father and the garden the son/daughter - Donovan basically wrote an album of songs for parents and their kids (something he's done on several occasions, including with HMS Donovan, For the Little Ones and the Pied Piper albums). It's a double album with the first record having a more "rock" feel, but still very mellow; the second record was largely acoustic and included themes of growth, love, teaching, morality, etc. I personally love the album but don't put it on as much as Sunshine, Hurdy, Mellow and the late 60s/early 70s albums. It's just not as dynamic, spacy or groove-oriented as the others.
------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: October 20 2014 at 13:38
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I can see where you're coming from. A Gift... does sound like one of those "sit back and relax" albums. ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: Permy
Date Posted: November 21 2014 at 18:03
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What a ridiculous thread. I'm not going to even comment on the prog "aspect". As to psych, they say UK psych started with Sunshine Superman, but they like to parrot back and forth a lot on the internet. I myself have parrotted this on ocassion. Truth is NOTHING that came out of the UK is psychedelic music in the truest sense. And if your automatically thinking America , there was precious little there as well. Mock psych there is tons, but the real deal, coming mainly out of Texas, was a very slim timeline with mere handfuls of bands. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 07:26
So, your definition of psych would only include those bands that spoke with a drawl. I realize Bubble Puppy and 13th Floor Elevator came from Texas, but your limited idea of what psych is seems to border on the silly. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Permy
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 08:48
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It is easy to dismiss that which you do not have any intention of understanding. Silly it is then. Only it is a silliness shared by many major (vinyl) collector/dealer heads - names that would mean nothing to you. I have not yet read Lundborg's (RIP) Psychedelia tome. It is quickly becoming THE main reference on the scene. Given time Patrick's work WILL - along with Morton Jack - be the main reference. I will go out on a limb and suppose his take on true psychedelia was same as above stated. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 09:41
This has always been the key question when comparing early American psych with that of the British. Perhaps you should give this question some thought.
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Posted By: Permy
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 09:48
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The British are clean out of the equation. There was no movement for them - no Vietnam for one. (With exception of foilkmusic and ocassional eccentricities like Comus, there is no darkness for the Brits only Alice In Wonderland, whimsey, garden gnomes.... |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 09:55
Perhaps you should read up a bit on this. It could prove helpful.
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 11:24
Hmmm... you sound exactly like a former poster who made equally inane pronouncements regarding vinyl dealers and their allegedly sacrosanct record bin categorizations. He was utterly wrong. And history repeats itself, apparently. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 11:30
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Now that you mention it, he does remind me of a certain individual too ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Permy
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 11:41
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People - including myself - do not WANT to be told certain truths. Do you think I myself want to know that prog came out of bluesrock? That psych came directly out of garage. That the line between garage and psych is so thin as to be.... |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 11:47
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Well it's all down to how you define psych or prog - and as far as I know, the verdict is still out on that. You'll find as many different views on what constitues either of the two styles as there are posters on here........and why wouldn't you? It's music after all. I will say this though, your definition of psych doesn't sound like any other I've ever come across. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 12:01
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Donovan may have been personally related to prog, hanging out and jamming with King Crimson ( http://www.elephant-talk.com/articles/fripp-yp.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.elephant-talk.com/articles/fripp-yp.htm ), opening for Yes, whatever. But musically, he doesn't qualify. And King Crimson covering a song of his shouldn't allow him in, either. Otherwise Yes covers would have qualified Richie Havens, Simon & Whatshisname, and god knows who else. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Permy
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 12:17
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Yes, of course the Crimson bit is ridiculousness itself. Better to further the Donovan arguement, the origional poster could have brought up a '66 Donovan B-side PRECEEDING SUNSHINE SUPERMAN whose title is pretty clear as to the ,then, current (Brit) practice of spiking "sugarcubes" with LSD. But ,of course, the question is : does the said track -whose exact title I forget -smack of psychedelicness to the degree of Sunshine Superman? The answer being...ughhhh...no. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 15:19
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^The OP left out obvious Psychedelic songs like Mellow Yellow. (Perhaps they weren't so obvious.)  ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Permy
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 17:00
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What is Mellow Yellow about? |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 20:41
Are you asking because you truly don't know, given the song didn't arise from the Austin,TX psych scene, or is there some arcane bit of wisdom you wish to impart regarding the song? And not, of course, anything to do with vibrators or the alleged link to smoking banana skins to get high. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Permy
Date Posted: November 22 2014 at 22:04
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No idea what its about. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 23 2014 at 10:52
For what it's worth...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mellow_Yellow" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mellow_Yellow " The song was rumoured to be about smoking dried banana skins, which was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bananadine" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mellow_Yellow#cite_note-5" rel="nofollow - - Donovan's Greatest Hits , the rumour that one could get high from smoking dried banana skins was started by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_Joe_McDonald" rel="nofollow - The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Stone" rel="nofollow - - vibrator ; an "electrical banana" as mentioned in the lyrics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mellow_Yellow#cite_note-6" rel="nofollow - - NME magazine: "it's about being cool, laid-back, and also the electrical bananas that were appearing on the scene - which were ladies' vibrators." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mellow_Yellow#cite_note-7" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_%28novel%29" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mellow_Yellow#cite_note-8" rel="nofollow - ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 23 2014 at 11:31
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It is about the meadow saffron. Right in the song it tells you. Now if you know anything about botany you will be able to understand. Polyploid vs. diploid............http://www.cannabase.com/cl/bcga/breeding/colchicine.htm |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 23 2014 at 11:48
I don't believe Donovan ever started a song with "stately, plump Buck Mulligan" either.  ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 23 2014 at 11:58
Don't know about that but Donovan is quoted in that wiki link so why are we doubting his own comments...? ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 23 2014 at 12:02
| Dildo it is then |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 23 2014 at 13:24
 )
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 23 2014 at 13:42
Considering the phrase I used was the first line of "Ulysses", I see no quote from Donovan stating he read James Joyce. So, no, I'm not doubting Donovan's comments, rather the possible literary link. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 23 2014 at 14:00
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Aside from Mellow Yellow, there were quite a few pop groups in 1967 that jumped on the Psych band wagon with varying degrees of success. The two that stick out like sore thumbs to me are the singles Incense and Peppermints from The Strawberry Alarm Clock (if that's not a Psych band name, what is?) and Watch The Flowers Grow by Frankie Valli And The Four Seasons. (The later demonstrated that a doo wop group could became gurus of 60's counter culture consciousness, overnight. Not!) ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Permy
Date Posted: November 23 2014 at 15:20
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"Psychedelic rock" has been abused/misused more than J....'s Kids. Would you believe that apparently even Chubby Checker became psychedelic at one point? Im speaking of the "Chequered" lp which -truth to tell - I could never find in the wild . I could never checkout the degree of psychedelique-ism. |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: November 24 2014 at 07:14
Why do people who make that claim have similar problems? 
And yet you have no problem grandstanding your own.
So only real psychedelia only occurred when following in the vein of Roky Erickson, Tommy Hall and Stacy Sutherland, eh? So much for a church of your own choice. ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 24 2014 at 11:33
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Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 10:42
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There have been some very interesting cross-overs from early rock 'n roll crooner to psych belter - just look at Bobby Darin (changed his name to Bob Darin to make it sound like Zimmy), Ricky Nelson, Vicki Carr, Little Richard (the Rill Thing album is a psych-soul classic), Burt Bacharach (well, maybe not his perfoming but rock artists using his songs and psyching them up), and my personal favorite David Axelrod (is he on PA?).
Donovan is great listening, especially when he broadened his folk to include psych elements. Still, not a proggy dude, just a hippie ------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: November 26 2014 at 18:49
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I have no problem with Donovan being included on progarchives. In his own way he was just as experimental as The Move and, dare I say it, the Moody Blues. Hurdy Gurdy Man is still a cool record. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: December 04 2014 at 13:20
| "Hurdy Gurdy Man" was a Psychedelic Rock song that Steve Hillage covered in the 70's. Basically what you have is Steve Hillage from Gong and Clive Bunker ex-Jethro Tull drummer and other members of the Hillage band performing "Hurdy Gurdy Man" which is telling. When listening back to the song, I can almost hear the Gong band doing a version of it with Daevid Allen on vocals. Gong was a Progressive Space Rock band that took on many Jazz elements and also included a full dosage of Psychedelic Rock. Maybe Steve Hillage doing a cover of a Donovan song tells us that Donovan's material is respected and if were re-done by other Prog artists, could reveal what is a mystery about him. Because he appealed to a "Pop" audience could mean less to what his personal image and creativity was all about. That might be why a progger like Steve Hillage would cover one of his songs. Apart from the fact that he may have simply liked the song, it could mean more than that to him or members of Gong. Technically..Donovan is connected to the Prog world in that way because Hillage is not some fly by night Progressive Rock writer...especially when he wrote GREEN. So,...apart from realizing that he personally liked the song, an interest may exist within the Prog community of musicians. Donovan wrote interesting chord changes along with an element of unusually sounding vocal chords..as he was a good singer, but was more in link with a Nick Drake, (to some extent), or The Zombies. Those two concepts are an important part of Progressive Rock. |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: December 04 2014 at 13:42
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Connecting Donovan to the Progressive Rock world means researching very premature elements developing early on around the time of Syd Barrett and possibly earlier than that. Premature stages of music development to later be applied to a new structure/form of Rock music called Progressive Rock. The next thing to do is to research the 60's. I can easily find "hooks" played in 70's Progressive Rock by listening to a Booker T and the MG's record. I can also hear it in the guitar playing of The Ventures, but these are stages of playing that had just been born when they were being placed into Rock. Many variations of this type of playing had been influenced by Classical music, Swing music and even popular music of the 1920's which is what 10CC made an adaption of. The first time it was revisited and changed for Rock music it revealed elements and the usage of diversity for a tool to expand music in general. That is what Progressive Rock was all about. It is totally understandable as to how and why Progressive Rock carried all the premature developmental musical playing of the 60's. To observe the details of it to back your theory, you can start by listening to Holst, The Planets. The first sound you will immediately identify with will be on Mercury, The Bringer Of War which is directly connected to "The Devil's Triangle" by King Crimson and shortly after that you might hear something that influenced Renaissance followed by "The Profit" by Tony Banks off The Yes Album. "Joy Bringer" from Manfred Mann's Earthband..Solar Fire is present along with many sections that were no doubt, intentionally lifted/borrowed by Progressive Rock bands in the 70's. This is a good method of training your ear as well.
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: December 04 2014 at 14:02
| In the music of the 60's, there are many signature lines and melodies which influenced Progressive Rock that are not obvious to the ear. Maybe you're doing a review and desire to make detailed points that you want to back up with examples. The best method of training your ear to do this is to start listening to The Doors and picking out whenever Jim Morrison starts singing like Frank Sinatra. You can start with "Touch Me" , "You're Lost Little Girl" and several others. After your ear develops a bit more, you'll be able to more easily pick out the guitar line in the center of the song "Airborne" by Camel which is the one used for "Flying" by The Beatles. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: December 04 2014 at 15:13
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I think there could be a case made for Donovan having an influence on prog. Everybody immediately thinks of him as a psychedelic folkie but don't forget he was into the Beats as well. "The Observation" sounds like it was written at City Lights Book Store and immediately performed next door at Vesuvio. He even did a whole album in 2004 honoring that heritage called "Beat Cafe." That blending of styles and ethos could definitely been seen as an influence on the prog artists who followed. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: December 13 2014 at 11:25
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My definition of prog is pretty wide when it comes to psych bands but other than his mellotron drenched "Breezes of Patchuli" I've never heard much prog in Donovan. A lot of very cool and adventurous psych (and also folk in his early career) though... ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |