I'm a wikipedian. I frequently contribute to music articles, mainly prog ones. About a month ago, I started an editing war on Supertramp's debut album because the article was stating Rick Davies was the lead singer on Shadow Song, which is one of my favourites (reason why I listened to it several times). I've always known, like any true Supertramp fan should, that the lead vocals on that song were not Davies's, but Palmer's. It turns out that the information for Rick's vocals come from Richard Palmer-James himself ! He was interviewed in 2011, 41 years after the album was recorded, and stated that Rick was the lead singer on that song. The way he answered the question and the obvious fact (to me) that the voice in Shadow Song is not Rick's led me an obstination about this ! I'm really looking for an evidence that I'm right. I even thought about contacting Richard Palmer, but I guess that would be a bit hard ! The only thing I found so far was this certified review of the album in which the writer states "Turns out Rick Davies sings lead on only one song ("Nothing to Show"), meaning all the rest of the vocals are handled by Hodgson (before his voice became annoying - it's actually quite good here) and Palmer":  http://starling.rinet.ru/music/supertrc.htm" rel="nofollow - http://starling.rinet.ru/music/supertrc.htm

Here is the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertramp_(album)

Here is the discussion I had with 2 wikipedians about this, both saying that if the source says it's Rick, then it's "clearly" Rick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Supertramp_(album)

Challenge: 

Are you a true Supertramp follower ? Do you know the band's career well enough to recognise its members' voices ? Do you enjoy the superb early Supertramp album ? Then tell me: who sings LEAD vocals on Shadow Song ? (we know the harmony is by Hodgson)

Heck, if Palmer says so, why do you have any credible reason to doubt him?

He wrote the lyrics, that is not in doubt, given that he wrote all the lyrics for that album.

However, he did not sing on that track. Davies and Hodgson did. He confirms that himself in interviews I have looked at today. Why would we doubt his word?

Okay I am obviously having a confused day!

Why simply believe if I'm disputing that information ? If I thought it was him, I would have no problem believing in him. It's exacly because it doesn't sound like Davies that I doubt him. As I said, he recorded only one album with Supertramp and it was 41 years before the interview he gave. So he had two reasons not to remember very well who sang lead on that song. Actually, he might have even confused the songs, but that's just a possibility... Anyway, it doesn't sound like Davies at all. The voice timbre is very different. On Forever it does sound like a young Davies. And of course you have Palmer's vocals to compare ! Just listen to Maybe I'm a Beggar. It's the same man singing those songs ! It's Palmer all the way ! Give it a try... Notice the trembling voice in some specific words. This happens in both songs. Just compare.

See more of this discussion here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Supertramp_(album)

lazland wrote: In much the same way I always knew Phil Collins sang For Absent Friends on Nursery Cryme (even though it was not published as such), I have always thought it was Rick Davies singing on Shadow Song, and I have seen or heard nothing credible to doubt that at all. Heck, if Palmer says so, why do you have any credible reason to doubt him?

Well, imagine that Phil Collins gave an interview in 2012 commenting about the recording of Nursery Cryme, which took place 41 years before. Imagine that he had stated "It's Peter singing in For Absent Friends". Wouldn't you doubt him ? I mean, no one is perfect. Our brain does fail sometimes. Our memory cannot remember some details about things we did 41 years before, mainly if those things were not really important. Palmer only recorded one album with Supertramp and he didn't sing a lot there. Those reasons are enough for me to believe that he might have commited a human mistake, which is something very very normal. Have you seen the review I talked about ? http://starling.rinet.ru/music/supertrc.htm The reviewer says that Rick only sang one song in the album, and it was Nothing to Show. I agree because the voice in Nothing to show does sound like Davies's, but it doesn't in Shadow Song.

See more of this discussion here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Supertramp_(album)

Tom Ozric wrote: Good call - I always thought it was Palmer-James. Just listened to it now and find it difficult to grasp it's Davies. Sounds more Hodgson than Davies.......

Finally ! Now two people agree with me. We either have great accurate ears or are all crazy. I'm pretty sure it's the first option.

Also, old Phil has never stated in a interview that Gabriel sang For Absent Friends. Quite the opposite

Now then. 41 years ago. 1973. April. The second.

I was living in Harlow, Essex. I was 8 years old (nine in that year). We lived in a place called Red Lion Crescent. My best mate was a lad called Paul Mason. I used to fight a lot with Wayne Bowden.

At this time on that night, I had just finished watching Alias Smith & Jones, one of the finest tv shows ever made. My Mum had just smacked me for telling my annoying little sister to feck off.

How's that, then?

Sorry, but you weren't very fortunate in your commentary. First of all, you seem to mistrust the source because it's Russian. It might be because of historical problems between the UK and Russia, and I have nothing to do with this, nor does it have to do with our main concern here. For your information, the owner of the website is a famous Russian linguist whose works on that area are regarded as important. I am a Linguistics student myself (graduating this year), so I know what I'm saying...

It's not a question of "relying". I just wanted to show you people that I am not the only human being on Earth who thinks Rick Davies did not sing Shadow Song. As you must have seen above, now there is another lad who agrees with me. Like I said to him, we three either have great ears of are totally insane.

Regarding Phil and Peter, it was just an example, and I really hope you understood it that way, not literally...

About your story, do you really think it made me believe that 41 years are nothing ? Come on, we are not talking about last year's vacation or our first kiss in High School. We are talking about an irrelevant fact in someone's life that happened four decades ago. As you probably know, professional musicians do not have the custom of listening back to their old albums. I doubt that Richard Palmer has listened to Supertramp's debut album even once in the last 40 years. Also, how could you watch Alas Smith and Jones in 1973 if the series is from the 80s ??? That couldn't be true even if it was 1983 !

I can assure you I have no problem with Russian websites, nor the country. Indeed, of the websites, they contain some of the best and finest tits I have seen outside of Prog Archives.

Now, to sleep. This is becoming a very silly thread.

Indeed, when listening to this song Album "Supertramp" is perfectly observed that the main voice in it, is not Roger Hodgson and not is Rick, which is very clear, that the composition of this song, its chords melodies and lyrics, Roger was behind her. 

What is absolutely clear is, who was the soul and spirit of this band; and who wrote the songs that gave fame to Supertramp, ROGER HODGSON,  and who have a concern, here it reflects a clear and concise:

Supertramp  (1970)                             Surely

                                                            Words Unspoken

Indelibly Stamped  (1971)                   Rosie had Everything Planned

Crime of the Century   (1974)             School

                                                            Hide in Your Shell

                                                            Dreamer

                                                            If Everyone was Listening

Crisis? What Crisis  (1975)                 Easy Does It

                                                            Sister Moonshine

                                                            A Soapbox Opera

                                                            Lady

                                                            The Meaning

                                                            Two of Us

Even in the Quietest Moments 

                                (1977)                 Give a Little Bit

                                                            Even in the Quietest Moments

                                                            Babaji

                                                            Fool's Overture

Breakfast in America  (1979)              The Logical Song

                                                            Breakfast in America

                                                            Take the Long Way Home

                                                            Lord is It Mine

                                                            Child of Vision

Supertramp Paris   (1980)                   School

                                                            The Logical Song

                                                            Breakfast in America

                                                            Hide in Your Shell

                                                            Dreamer

                                                            A Soapbox Opera

                                                            Take the Long Way Home

                                                            Fool's Overture

                                                            Two of Us

Famous Last Words  (1982)               Crazy

                                                            It´s Raining Again

                                                            Know Who You Are   

                                                            C´est Le Bon

                                                            Don´t Leave me Now

From here, in 1984 Roger Hodgson began his solo career, which I appreciated, because for me, personally, that band Supertramp had a definite soul and spirit, Roger Hodgson. The essence of this band was in music and compositions of Roger.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/classics-live/id502038005" rel="nofollow - http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/classics-live/id502038005

For more detailed information:

http://www.rogerhodgson.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.rogerhodgson.com   (Official Website)

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrRogerHodgson" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/MrRogerHodgson   (Official Channel Youtube)

I disagree. Whilst Hodgson contributed a hell of a lot as you noted above, you are missing the other main players who did provide the other 80%

Rick Davies - Numero uno composer and song writer

Dougie Thompson - Extraordinary bass player

Bob Siebenberg or Bob C Benberg - Drums

John Helliwell - Sax, Keyboards and Master of Ceremonies

Hodgson has been busy since leaving Tramp but let's not forget the band continued very comfortably without him and released an additional 4 studio albums after his departure. Some of which underrated.

I respect your disagreement, but the data speak for themselves .

The band actually had other members as you say 80 % physically , but the essence of Supertramp, are songs that Roger wrote and sang . The global reality in my point of view is that I have expressed above.

Sure Rick took the name of Supertramp, and then they released 4 albums after separation , I did not contribute anything for me, sorry for Rick .

Roger also brought to market five great albums since 1984 , if they were feeling and I get feelings and emotions.

Moreover, Rick with Supertramp name, sometimes used songs of Roger on tour after separation , to call public attention to the promotions of these concerts , something that does not honor it , since the agreement was clear from Roger , and the latter not respected .

Everyone has their own opinion , and you have to respect it, but everyone asks that Supertramp songs are what the public likes ?

I have it very , very clear since I was a child, 35 years ago . Without Roger Hodgson , Supertramp had not been Supertamp .

http://youtu.be/05YmDTYWWYg?hd=1" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/05YmDTYWWYg?hd=1   Enjoy !!

Anyway, this topic is not about that. It's about who sang the lead vocal on Shadow Song, a track from their first album. Do you know the song ? Would you like to share you opinion with us ?

Sorry if this derails things but a similar thing has happened before where a musician "discredits" himself for some contribution on album/song. 

I concur my friend.....I think Hodgson's appeal as a vocalist waned quicker than Jon Anderson's. Cannot put my finger on it I know Hodgson still has a devout fan base which i am happy about. His album Open the Door was pretty good from 2000. A plus 3 rating on PA. Hai Hai sadly did not make even a 2 star rating.

Claugroi, perhaps have misunderstood my first post on your part. I understand that you are talking about a song from the first album Supertramp, and as you say , Roger Hodgson at the time belonged to the band.

While I have highlighted and exposed the most important songs of Roger Hodgson in his career when it belonged to the group , I think it is equally right that when you talk about Rick or the other members, I have set the songs that Roger he has composed and sung with Supertramp .

Regarding taste , you know, everyone 's got their own, I respect that you like most music that makes Rick Davies , I expect you to respect the same way , for me, Roger Hodgson has more talent and charisma than the rest of the members of the band Supertramp, is just my personal perception , as that is what I see in the criticism of his music and his career worldwide . Besides, you you could see in your country , Brazil,  is very dear Roger , and every time you make a tour of this beautiful country, is a success.

Best Regards

Regarding Brazil, it is, indeed, very dear to Roger, and he fortunately corresponds to our kindness. He came here more than 5 times, none of which I could attend, very unfortunately. I hope he'll come back soon (do you know if he will ?). And have you really heard him play Surely live ?? That's quite rare, isn't it ?? Lucky you...

Thanks for you opinion about the singer of Shadow Song.

Thanks for you comment. That, indeed, is a possibility of what might have happened. If not, then I'm right about the misremembering, because one thing is for sure: that man singing is Palmer !

There are only 3 band whose discography I know entirely: Beatles, Gentle Giant and Supertramp (every single song on every single studio album), and I can say that there are very few ST songs I don't like. Aries is surely one of them. They should have omitted that. Canonball is one of those I try to like, but can't. I think it's artificial...

Talking about BWYB, do any of you agree with me that Open Door is a forgotten gem ? I just love that song. So simple, yet so powerful. A big musical crescendo with poetic lyrics. It's a pitty most people either hate it or consider it the weakest on the album...

Definitely not Hodgson, my friend ! Even when Roger sings low, his voice is still very characteristic, very unique. As you noted, it's a matter of timbre. That doesn't change. About one thing we agree, though: it's not Davies. Richard Palmer has a softer, gentler voice than Davies's. That's the reason why it might sound like Roger at first. Both have crisp voices. If you listen to it many times and compare that voice with the one in Maybe I'm a Beggar, you'll surely notice it's the same guy singing. Listen to the bit from 0:42 to 0:48 from Maybe I'm a Beggar. Note that Palmer's voice trembles a bit on the word "much" from "I ain't got too much sense". It's the same trembling that happens in "figure" from "figure on a lamplit wall" in Shadow Song. Hodgson joins in at 1:21 doing the harmony vocal.

Anyway, your comment was totally worth because of that video you shared with us. I was looking madly for that ! Actually, I think the last time I search for it was last month. I saw it about 2 years ago and wasn't able to find again ever since. Thanks !

Anyway, your comment was totally worth because of that video you shared with us. I was looking madly for that ! Actually, I think the last time I search for it was last month. I saw it about 2 years ago and wasn't able to find again ever since. Thanks !

Nice to hear it had any use.   A fine video indeed - it's amazing how the band keep that crazy rhythm in the very end. RPJ could have carried on as a guitarist as well.


-------------
All in all each man in all men

Hahaha, that's right, but the thing is that the thread started with two possibilities: Rick Davies and Richard Palmer. I just didn't expect someone would suggest Roger Hodgson. I hope no one suggests Robert Millar (the drummer) ! But indeed, Shadow Song might the biggest mystery of Supertramp's career regarding the vocals. They do sound very different from any other.

It's a similar technique, but it's a technique which is easily reproduceable by aspirating a word when singing it. (Rick Davies also uses it in the "we will stay" part in "Downstream", by the way.) It's no integral part of the unique timbre of a voice, so it's no reliable proof, I'm afraid. The only useful points in this debate are timbre and recollections by the participating musicians.

I know that's a technique linked to the singer's style of singing, not the timbre, but it sounds very similar in Maybe I'm a Beggar and Shadow Song. It's not really a proof, but more of a hint. It wasn't a frequently used technique by Hodgson. I don't remember him singing like that with the exception of Hide in Your Shell (nor do I remember Davies singing "we will stay" that way). Anyway, I think it's undeniable the voice timbre in Shadow Song is very unusual, otherwise there would be no debate about that (and so many different opinions about who sang it).

Another thing you'd have to explain is why RPJ (wrongly) attributes the lead vocal to Rick Davies if it's actually RPJ singing. Musicians forget a lot of details about sessions, but they definitely don't forget the moment when they sing their first (and only) true lead vocal on a commercial record.

As I said in the first post of the topic, I truly believe Palmer misremembered this information. He sang little on the album, but that wasn't his only lead there. He is the lead singer on the aforementioned Maybe I'm a Beggar, which has Hodgson was a second lead in the middle parts.

Chris S wrote: ^ I am sure Davies is divorced and Sue does not manage him anymore. Not certain...

The same contact mentioned above said he has sent a message to "Sue, Rick's wife", not "ex-wife". I don't know if she is still managing him (I guess not), but I think they are still married. By the way, have you ever heard a hoax about Hodgson's departure from the band that blamed his wife and Rick's ? I've heard that some time ago, but don't think it was actually the reason for that.

It says so because both sing. Roger starts doing a kind of harmony, but actually sings the whole song from 1:21 on together with the main singer. Richard Palmer himself wrote about the vocals on Shadow Song: "Rick (Roger sings harmonies, and lead in the 'middle 8’)". On 3:33, however, I agree with you that it sounds like there are 3 voices. They either did a short overdub there or the third singer joined in. It sounds to me like there are two Hodgson voices in those last verses, one on the right channel and another (higher-pitched) on the left, together with the lead singer.

That's true. We have only another song on the album to compare with.

Does he still live there ? Do you know the address ?? Hahaha, just kiding... Abel Fuentes, one of the two guys responsible for The Logical Web (one of the biggest Supertramp fan sites), has already done it at my request, but via e-mail. Palmer just said the same thing he had said on the original interview from 2011. Not a big surprise...

Me too. Perhaps he did, who knows ?

aginor wrote: He also coined tge band name, ;)

That's true. Undoubtedly, his biggest contribution to the group !

I told him that, but he said he was referring to the original series, which was actually called ALIAS Smith & Jones, the series on which the pun ALAS Smith & Jones was based. As for the rest, indeed no one can tell if it is true !

I can't even say I remember the second show, which was aired almost 10 years before I was born !

 

Well, personally, when listening to BIA and FLW, I don't get much a feeling that the band sounds much like Supertramp ... the spirit is there (of sorts), but the sound isn't - and Roger's departure is not the main reason for the sonic changes. There are a zillion changes between that dreadful FLW (where only the last two tracks are worthy, the rest being very superficial), compared to Brother WYB, which has only one weaker track (Still In Love, which could sound as if Hodgson had written it, IMHO, anyways).

 

I also never heard that Hodgson worked on the Brother tracks, but it could be possible that he heard some of them before leaving.

 

 

 

A good example of a singer changing his vocals is Paul McCartney, a very versatile musician. His soft and calm vocals on I Will and Here, There and Everywhere sound nothing like his harsh and agressive ones in Why Don't We Do It In The Road and Oh! Darling, but you can still recognise him for his timbre.

To all who can't change their opinions about this, I suggest listening to Shadow Song and then Maybe I'm a Beggar in sequence. Of course the vocal style changes a bit because the first song is soft/calm, the second is more dramatic/exaggerated, but it's still the same man singing them ! Pay close attention to the trembling voice at the end of sentences and to the pleasant and clean falsetto that Rick was not capable of doing because of his bluesier and rougher tone, as evidenced in future songs like Goodbye Stranger.

As for both RPJ and Hodgson confirming it was Rick singing, my theory remains the same: more than 40 years have passed, so it's very likely their memories are failing. I doubt they listened to Shadow Song recently, even when asked the question about who sang it, so it's only logical to assume that there is a possibility they are not remembering correctly. Sometimes, in the studio, off-the-cuff decisions have to be made, and that includes changing the vocalist, like Paul McCartney singing John Lennon's parts on Love Me Do in the official recording, something that did not happen live before that. So maybe Rick used to sing the song live and they changed roles for the official album recording.

Download video here: http://www.tubeoffline.com/

So what I mean is that maybe your friend should be more familiar with the album and then make a judgement again. Tell him to listen to Maybe I'm a Beggar many times to get used to Palmer's voice. And do ask him if he doesn't find the voice in Shadow Song very unusual for Rick Davies, even when you compare it to the only song he surely sung on that very album (Nothing to Show, in unison with Roger).