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Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=97195 Printed Date: December 18 2024 at 16:02 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Psychedelic Rock Revisted -- Proto-ProgPosted By: brainstormer
Subject: Psychedelic Rock Revisted -- Proto-Prog
Date Posted: February 18 2014 at 23:39
I am of the opinion that some psychedelic rock is proto-prog rock.
I am interested in the years 1966 to 1968. Can anyone give me
some of the bands that made the most musical strides in these years.
Obviously, the Nice, Floyd, Soft Machine, but I'm interested in something
that isn't jazz or classical done with more rock elements thrown in,
but something more harmonically innovative as well as sonic textures,
like studio effects.
I'm curious what the year 1966 put out as far as innovative rock.
------------- --
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Replies: Posted By: Master of Time
Date Posted: February 19 2014 at 00:18
I know it isn't exactly proto prog, at least according to this site, but I kind of think of it as the first real proto prog album: Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys. It was definitely innovative.
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: February 19 2014 at 00:19
Master of Time wrote:
I know it isn't exactly proto prog, at least according to this site, but I kind of think of it as the first real proto prog album: Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys. It was definitely innovative.
And "Smile" is another killa.
And how 'bout "Anthem Of The Sun" by Grateful Dead? It's one of gems of Psych Rock.
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: February 19 2014 at 01:31
brainstormer wrote:
(...)
I'm curious what the year 1966 put out as far as innovative rock.
I'd like to recommend http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaV-S5ivX3E" rel="nofollow - East West as an 13-minute long instruemental track released in 1966 (at same titled album) as truly innovative as well. Unbelievable Mike Bloomfield's guitar work. Nobody was recorded something like that before. It was recorded at one live studio session and even today it doesn't sound dated.
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: February 19 2014 at 01:40
WAZOO : St (1970)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyiAFbKxfrw
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: February 19 2014 at 02:12
This is a great thread! and your timing couldn't be better, just a few days ago I finally got my Canterbury Glass album. It's an album recorded in 1968 but was never released, this is really progressive for that year. Steve Hacket joined the band just before they broke up and he's playing on one song.
^ The Steve Hacket song
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: February 19 2014 at 03:22
And my favorite early prog band Touch. Also from 68' every song on the album shows a different direction, excellent stuff!
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: February 19 2014 at 04:07
I guess that you're already familiar with Procol Harum? I think A Salty Dog is my favourite album of theirs in case you want a good place to start.
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: February 19 2014 at 09:55
Family-Music In A Doll's House. It was released in 1968.
The Beach Boys-Smile was about experimentation. Phase shifting vocal harmonies , chanting, sound effects and combine this with the influence of J.S.Bach and you have a very odd sound. The Beach Boys vocally, keep their distinctive sound , but unlike any vocal style they harmonized in prior to Smile. It's so "off beat" for 67' and so ahead of it's time and 3 of the instrumental pieces are in the vain of the early Residents albums. Sections of Mark of the Mole and Not Available perhaps. It's a very strange connection..but it's obvious to hear. Especially in the "Fire tapes".
Jefferson Airplane's Crown of Creation is the Airplane album I must single out as being the most influential to Space Rock. Piper At the Gates of Dawn featured the instrumental "Interstellar Overdrive" which may have been the first attempt at completeness in Space Rock. Crown of Creation tends to create atmospheric sounds that later turned up in the music of Gong, Hawkwind, Guru, Guru and Amon Duul II. It was a different influence entirely to Space Rock than Piper...although "Lather" is quite like a Syd Barrett composition and take notice sometime. Imagine Syd Barrett singing "Lather" and it all falls into place. However...Syd Barrett listened to Jefferson Airplane and the developing stages of this type of experimentation can't be pin pointed and historically documented exacting without having the answers to certain important questions. It's never discussed that deeply on any of the Pink Floyd documentaries and hardly mentioned in the films on the late 60's. Ron Geesin would probably know the answers and point me in the right direction. Some people assume that because everything was bursting out in the 60's scene at rapid speed...that the confused event itself holds the explanation as to why credit to an artist can not be given and that the observation of changing music cannot be credited to that artist until several people from that period are interviewed to confirm it. That's a lie.
Beaver & Krause's In A Wild Sanctuary was very groundbreaking and influential.
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: February 19 2014 at 10:02
Listen to The United States of America (the band and the name of their single album).
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: February 19 2014 at 12:43
The legend says that the Doors heard this song by Kim Fowley - "one of the most colourful characters in rock 'n' roll" - on a jukebox, and then ... you know the story.
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: February 19 2014 at 12:44
The Crazy World of Arthur Brown, 1968
Group 1850 - Agemo's Trip to Mother Earth, 1968
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Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: February 19 2014 at 21:04
I believe 1967 was the year Proto-Prog broke out. That's why I am interested in 1966 or earlier.
Definitely, Brian Wilson was a good call.
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Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: February 19 2014 at 21:12
Svetonio wrote:
brainstormer wrote:
(...)
I'm curious what the year 1966 put out as far as innovative rock.
I'd like to recommend http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaV-S5ivX3E" rel="nofollow - East West as an 13-minute long instruemental track released in 1966 (at same titled album) as truly innovative as well. Unbelievable Mike Bloomfield's guitar work. Nobody was recorded something like that before. It was recorded at one live studio session and even today it doesn't sound dated.
This came as a surprise for 1966.
I am thinking Donovan might be one of the most prog artists in 1966. Listening to the first three songs
on Sunrise Superman from 1966. The 3rd song is a lot like very early Crimson.
------------- --
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: February 20 2014 at 04:28
The Mothers of Invention's first three LPs are mandatory too, being instrumental in kicking off a wave of experimentation within rock music just through "cultural osmosis" despite not being "progressive rock" in the British sense. It was Freak Out! that inspired The Beatles to think further outside the box, even though Zappa himself didn't think highly of them, which in turn spurred on much of the initial UK prog scene. Can't remember if that album was 1966 or 1967.
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: February 20 2014 at 21:36
About the only band doing anything interesting on a consistent level before '67 were the Beatles when Revolver came out......and Rubber Soul before that.
Freak Out '66 and Absoutely Free '67 by Zappa as some one mentioned above but they didn't sound like 'proto prog' to my ears. Floyd came out with their first in '67 also....The Doors '67........The Airplane '67.......
Someone mentioned Donovan but he never sounded proggy to me but folky psych rock but I can see how that might sound like proto prog. .There were many pysch rock and proto prog bands in 67 - 69.... including some one hit wonders and one LP bands. I have a lot of those early psych bands on cd .
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: February 22 2014 at 14:21
Yeah, I think Zappa is on the site for music he recorded much later. Just noticed that The Moody Blues' first LP came out in 1966 too, but I haven't heard it so...
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: February 22 2014 at 15:19
Yes, I second most suggestions made here above.
Last days I listened to Country Joe MacDonald's Electric Music For The Mind And Body, which has some protoproggish elements, as in the instrumental "Section 43".
And also Buffalo Springfield's "Broken Arrow" from Buffalo Springfield Again.
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: February 22 2014 at 15:23
The Dark Elf wrote:
Listen to The United States of America (the band and the name of their single album).
That's what came to my mind as well. Such a great and adventerous album.
------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: February 23 2014 at 11:13
Toaster Mantis wrote:
Yeah, I think Zappa is on the site for music he recorded much later. Just noticed that The Moody Blues' first LP came out in 1966 too, but I haven't heard it so...
The Moody's first album (1965) featured Denny Laine (later of Paul McCartney's Wings). It was more R&B/pop than anything. Their big hit on their first release was "Go Now". It wasn't until Laine left and Justin Hayward and John Lodge joined the band that they eventually dropped their previous sound, got an offer by their label to do a rock version of Dvořák's New World Symphony (as a demo for Decca's new "Deramic stereo sound"). The Moodys decided to do their own thing instead, and the rest is prog history.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: February 23 2014 at 18:21
Back in the day the first 2 Moody Blues and the first 2 Procol Harum lp's all had that proto prog thing going on...as well as the first Family lp...and Touch was one of my favorites also.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: February 23 2014 at 21:42
Moogtron III wrote:
And also Buffalo Springfield's "Broken Arrow" from Buffalo Springfield Again.
A great song for American ProtoProg but it came in October 1967.
I think a lot of Prog's influence came from a more rock version of what was already
happening in things like soundtrack music, Herb Alpert, and Brian Wilson's influence:
Phil Specter. I still say, as much as it sounds funny, Donovan's Sunshine Superman
is probably the most ProtoProg thing happening, even if I probably won't like a lot of it.
It's combining classical instrumentation with rock, as well as exotic instruments, and
odd, very slow meters He even has that "royal court" imagery that Genesis would
later revel in. I imagine there might have been a lot of "droopy" folk
going around that might have influenced Donovan, maybe some "Beat"
culture music. That's an interesting topic (!): what was the most progressive folk
happening at the earlier times?
------------- --
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Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
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Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: February 23 2014 at 22:00
The Beatles "Revolver" came out in August 1966, whereas Donovan's "Sunshine Superman" came
out in September 1966. Both of them sound amazingly different than regular rock albums, much
more "intelligent" musically, with many world music influences, and even classical, such as
Eleanor Rigby.
------------- --
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 08:07
Bookends by Simon & Garfunkle
-------------
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 10:47
Electric Flag ..1966...recorded music for a film titled "The Trip". It was a collage of everything from electronic experiments to Dixieland. and merry-go-round music to hard soul jamming.
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 10:57
brainstormer wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
brainstormer wrote:
(...)I'm curious what the year 1966 put out as far as innovative rock.
I'd like to recommend http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaV-S5ivX3E" rel="nofollow - East West as an 13-minute long instruemental track released in 1966 (at same titled album) as truly innovative as well. Unbelievable Mike Bloomfield's guitar work. Nobody was recorded something like that before. It was recorded at one live studio session and even today it doesn't sound dated.
This came as surprise for 1966. I am thinking Donovan might be one of the most prog artists in 1966. Listening to the first three songs on Sunrise Superman from 1966. The 3rd song is a lot like very early Crimson.
I agreed for Donovan.
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 07:52
Some (psychedelic rock?) highlights of '66:
East-West (13:18) 1966 The Paul
Butterfield Blues Band “East-West”
And I like it (10:36) recorded 1966 /
released ? Jefferson Airplane
Smokestack Lightning (10:52) 4 Sep live (Wolfgang’s
Vault) 1966 Quicksilver Messenger Blues
The Same Thing (11:13) 19 Nov 1966
Grateful Dead live at Fillmore Auditorium
In the Midnight Hour (18:57) 19 Nov 1966
Grateful Dead live at Fillmore Auditorium
Eight Miles
High Jan/March '66 Byrds
Rain April/June
'66 Beatles
Doctor
Robert April/Aug '66 Beatles
Break on
Through (To…)Aug '66/Jan '67Doors
Light My
FireAug '66/Jan '67Doors
Cobwebs and StrangeOct/Dec '66Who
Third Stone from the SunOct '66/May '67The
Jimi Hendrix Exp
White RabbitNov
'66/Feb '67Jefferson
Airplane
C.T.A. – 102Dec
'66/Feb '67Byrds
2-4-2 Fox Trot (The Lear
Jet Song)Byrds (May/July '66)
Seven & Seven Is Love (?/June '66)
Psychotic Reaction The Count Five (?/June '66)
Bad Little Woman Shadows Of Knight (?/July '66)
I Had Too Much to Dream (Last Night) The Electric Prunes (?/Nov '66)
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 08:01
Hi,
Ohhh damn!
Iron Butterfly is missing!
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 08:03
Hi,
Hahaha ... I still have that TOUCH LP. Not even sure it is playable anymore!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 10:08
Although released "too late" (1968), there is a hell of reason that those two songs ought to be mentioned in this thread..
..especially this one
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 12:02
Let's not forget H.P. Lovecraft. Although their 2nd album is better, you've got to hand it to them for putting a Gregorian chant on their debut album (Oct. 1967). It's so regressive as to be progressive:
And a bit of Vaudeville mixed in with their trip:
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Posted By: The Jester
Date Posted: March 04 2014 at 04:54
on the top of my head, definetely the first albums from Procol Harum and The Moody Blues, but I guess that already known... But for sure you should listen to the first 2 albums by 'Ultimate Spinach'... They are wonderful! :) A classic example of Psychedelic Rock, mixed with Jazz Rock and Prog elements. (For example in the song Jazz Thing)... Check them out! ;)
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: March 04 2014 at 12:54
brainstormer wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
And also Buffalo Springfield's "Broken Arrow" from Buffalo Springfield Again.
A great song for American ProtoProg but it came in October 1967.
I think a lot of Prog's influence came from a more rock version of what was already
happening in things like soundtrack music, Herb Alpert, and Brian Wilson's influence:
Phil Specter. I still say, as much as it sounds funny, Donovan's Sunshine Superman
is probably the most ProtoProg thing happening, even if I probably won't like a lot of it.
It's combining classical instrumentation with rock, as well as exotic instruments, and
odd, very slow meters He even has that "royal court" imagery that Genesis would
later revel in. I imagine there might have been a lot of "droopy" folk
going around that might have influenced Donovan, maybe some "Beat"
culture music. That's an interesting topic (!): what was the most progressive folk
happening at the earlier times?
For a few years in the early to mid 60's..it became a popular idea to fuse classical melodies with Pop music or what would have been defined then as....a "Rock Hit". Most Pop Rock American bands that charted with a #1 hit had musically schooled backgrounds. Bands like The Box Tops and The Lovin' Spoonful wrote some very hokey charted tunes..but were surprisingly excellent musicians doing their job. Well....that was the first time I heard about it and I must have been age 10. How scary..but classical written lines were borrowed for Motown #1 hits. The Ventures ..the instrumental guitar oriented band recorded many sci-fi themes like "The Outer Limits" and "The Twilight Zone" and produced their own arrangements for guitar...which! was a progressive thing to do in the early 60's. The idea was later produced to represent a different meaning by fusing it with a serious religious subject and it's significance to the on going times of war. These ideas were often presented through theatre and to be taken seriously while the industry kept looking for the next Beatles. The one that lasted from 63' to 65'? Then they bought The Monkees. It was interesting even if people did borrow from Bernard Hermann
Posted By: Dragontrouser
Date Posted: March 05 2014 at 05:55
Jefferson Airplane:
Jefferson Airplane Takes Off 1966
Surrealistic Pillow 1967
After Bathing at Baxters 1967
Crown of Creation 1968
Posted By: Argor
Date Posted: March 05 2014 at 08:40
Gandalf recorded their album in 1967 (although it was released in 1969) and it suits perfectly to the topic. Also Cream was playing in that time, but these bands aren't listed in PA :/
and obviously this one ;)
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 05 2014 at 17:14
I have all 3 on vinyl..........
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 05 2014 at 17:34
Everyone here should know this one and it was also covered by Arthur Brown apparently......
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: March 06 2014 at 03:09
Zombies, Left Banke
Not prog at all, but lovely, lush classical melodies.
Spirit, Love... (Man I feel cool typing out these band names) It's a Beautiful Day... they might be too hippy/jammy. CSNY is one of my favorites but these are all obvious probably. Maybe Sagittarius, The Idle Race... any baroque pop.
"Odessa" from the Bee Gees, also "Every Christian Lion Hearted Man..." from the debut.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2014 at 05:01
dr wu23 wrote:
Back in the day the first 2 Moody Blues and the first 2 Procol Harum lp's all had that proto prog thing going on...as well as the first Family lp...and Touch was one of my favorites also.
The Magnificent Moodies proto-prog? Really? Only Go Now stands out as being the embryonic beginning of the Moodies foray into Baroque Pop, the rest of the album is (as I recall) typical English Whiteboy R&B.
I would also call Procol's first two albums Baroque Rock though they have one foot at least in Blues Rock territory on their first four albums.
Good call on Family, they don't get enough shout-outs on this forum, a truly great band - In A Doll's House is also heavily laden with Baroque Rock.
Baroque Pop/Rock is not Psychedelic Pop/Rock, though they are related, I would cite Baroque Pop/Rock as being the other ingredient that with Psych Pop/Rock and Jazz Rock that formed the basis for the emergent Progressive Rock back then.
------------- What?
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: March 06 2014 at 05:32
Dean wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Back in the day the first 2 Moody Blues and the first 2 Procol Harum lp's all had that proto prog thing going on...as well as the first Family lp...and Touch was one of my favorites also.
The Magnificent Moodies proto-prog? Really? Only Go Now stands out as being the embryonic beginning of the Moodies foray into Baroque Pop, the rest of the album is (as I recall) typical English Whiteboy R&B.
I would also call Procol's first two albums Baroque Rock though they have one foot at least in Blues Rock territory on their first four albums.
You recall correctly. The Moodies were part of the r & b scene, and if that debut, is even remotely classified as "proto prog", then I would immediately submit The Yardbirds, John MAyall's Bluesbreakers, Fleetwood Mac, The Stones, The Faces, in fact virtually every single Whiteboy R & B band who had more than a 60 second spot on Ready Steady Go for inclusion on this ever expanding site of ours.
Look on the bright side, Dean. At least they are not Band Cramp sourced, and more than five people will have heard of them!
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 06 2014 at 09:49
Dean wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Back in the day the first 2 Moody Blues and the first 2 Procol Harum lp's all had that proto prog thing going on...as well as the first Family lp...and Touch was one of my favorites also.
The Magnificent Moodies proto-prog? Really? Only Go Now stands out as being the embryonic beginning of the Moodies foray into Baroque Pop, the rest of the album is (as I recall) typical English Whiteboy R&B.
I would also call Procol's first two albums Baroque Rock though they have one foot at least in Blues Rock territory on their first four albums.
Good call on Family, they don't get enough shout-outs on this forum, a truly great band - In A Doll's House is also heavily laden with Baroque Rock.
Baroque Pop/Rock is not Psychedelic Pop/Rock, though they are related, I would cite Baroque Pop/Rock as being the other ingredient that with Psych Pop/Rock and Jazz Rock that formed the basis for the emergent Progressive Rock back then.
I ignored Go Now...I was referring to 'Days' as their first....bit of an omission there on my part..
I think Shine On and perhaps even the first by Procol is proto-prog and baroque rock by..imo.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2014 at 09:53
------------- What?
Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: March 07 2014 at 21:37
The thing about psychedelic rock that makes it so interesting and proto-prog
is the sonic (sound texture) element of it. You could say that this even bordered
on suggesting the avant-garde or "sound-art" type music, as it probably was the genre of the three
elements of proto-prog, said very correctly above, that added that aspect to
prog rock. I very much like the idea of proto-prog being all three: psychedelic,
baroque, and jazz-rock.
It's interesting that wider arrangements had already been
going on in "middle of the road" type music from the early 60s. There are
many people today who collect these "anomalous" records from thrift shops,
so they are no longer completely obscure. It would be interesting to hear
what was happening before "Pet Sounds" hit the market. When you get
trained big band or orchestra musicians backing up pop singers, more than
the typical blues-scale stuff can happen.
I know some German schlagel (spelling?) had some interesting
stuff going on. I'm not sure the date it was happening, but it was
pop music with orchestration. I guess back then it was a crossover between
pop and opera/classical song structures, and symphonic arrangements.
I don't know when Ina Martell's "Ich war allein" was released, but you
can see that maybe the Beatles heard stuff like this and did Eleanor Rigby.
If you also look at all the changes in some songs by singers in the Sinatra generation,
they were pop but sometimes complex. There may have been a progressive wing
in the more popular music of the 20s and 30s. Check out, "It Was a Very Good Year,"
by Sinatra.
------------- --
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Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 07 2014 at 22:06
The monk bought lunch...
Baroque, cocktail jazz, R&B and enigmatic (and at times, damn funny) drug-fueled lyrics.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 07 2014 at 22:46