Why not more ratings for Gentle Giant albums?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=96125
Printed Date: November 27 2024 at 14:39
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Topic: Why not more ratings for Gentle Giant albums?
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Subject: Why not more ratings for Gentle Giant albums?
Date Posted: November 30 2013 at 19:45
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Is it just me or does it seem odd to others on here that Gentle Giant who are often considered part of the big five or big six only have one album on here with more than 1,000 ratings and only one with more than 900 ratings. Sorry I just don't get it. Porcupine Tree have more higher rated albums it seems. I'm surprised ELP have more higher rated albums(as does Marillion). My only explanation is that maybe Gentle Giant is a band that has gone under the radar of many of the younger prog fans on here. They are an extremely important band and should be in every prog fans collection. I think they are at least as good as King Crimson or ELP(if not better). So get off your lazy butts you young whipper snappers and buy some Gentle Giant!!!! Start with Free Hand or Octopus. You won't be disappointed!!! |
Replies:
Posted By: Olape
Date Posted: November 30 2013 at 20:24
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I totally agree with Prog_Traveller!
The first seven albums of Gentle Giant are awesome and still blow my mind away after listening them for almost 25 years. And what can we say about the gigs on Giant on the Box? I don't understand why there is none Gentle Giant album among the top 30 or even among the top 15! 
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Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: November 30 2013 at 20:29
| Like I said I really think the younger fans missed the boat on this band. That is to say they somehow haven't discovered them as much as other bands. Bands like the Mars Volta or Porcupine Tree or Dream Theater or whoever came along when they could be visible to the younger fans. Yes and Genesis got airplay on radio and still do. Gentle Giant haven't had the exposure of those bands. Plus Gentle Giant broke up in 1980 and I think that's a big part of it right there. They have had a lot of reissues but no new proper albums since Civilian. I really first heard about them because of my ex stepmother's brother who was a musician and a dj. He said something like "well if you like King Crimson and the prog rock stuff you need to check out this band called Gentle Giant" which I eventually did. I didn't get them at first but they grew on me. Octopus was one of the first ones and because of that it might be my favorite from them. |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: November 30 2013 at 21:00
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They're an acquired taste, and a lot of time aren't considered big six but that's another story. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: November 30 2013 at 21:16
| Acquired taste? Yeah maybe to some degree but they are listed as eclectic prog and not avant prog. They aren't as out there as many other bands on here. I still say the younger fans haven't been exposed to them. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 30 2013 at 21:34
| Let's just say that GG is one of Prog Rock's best kept secrets. Those willing to discover their albums will be in for many surprises. FANTASTIC band !! |
Posted By: madmike
Date Posted: November 30 2013 at 22:13
I'd agree with that assessment. I mean, they're not a band that most prog fans my age (30) have a great deal of familiarity with (oddly enough, even less so than some other similarly situated bands in the 70s like Renaissance or VDGG), but those that are familiar with them tend to smile approvingly when I mention that they're one of my favorite bands from the era.
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Prog_Traveller wrote:Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: November 30 2013 at 22:32
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I think GG is kinda love-or-hate it thing. ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: November 30 2013 at 22:35
Best kept secrets? Are you kidding me? One of music's best kept secrets maybe. For a long time they were one of the most important prog bands and at the forefront of the so called second tier or maybe somewhere between first and second tier. Usually they are ranked just behind King Crimson. But then when all the kiddies discovered prog in the past decade they got buried under the carpet or something. Or maybe it's just this particular prog site that gives the impression that they are less important and less popular than they really are. |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: November 30 2013 at 22:41
Yeah, I think at least as far as this site goes they have been sort of lost in time. I think a big part of that is because they broke up in 1980 where as bands such as Focus, Renaissance, VDGG, Nektar, Camel and even Caravan have continued at least a little bit beyond 1980. However, even some of those bands I just mentioned have been neglected by the younger fans I'm afraid. I think how it goes on here is that when after the kiddies wipe their faces after eating their sugar frosted flakes at the high chair and throw the teddy bear down and look at the top thirty or so on here those are the albums that they run off with their piggy bank money to buy and I think GG are often not up there on that list except for Octopus which is admittedly a really great album. But yeah for some reason VDGG, Camel and Renaissance are all more respected than GG is around here for whatever reason(at least among the younger fans). I admit they aren't for everyone but they certainly aren't any weirder or harder to get into than Frank Zappa, VDGG or Magma. |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: November 30 2013 at 23:07
Gentle Giant was the first prog band I ever saw (July 76) and they blew me away...of course Yes came on 20 minutes later and blew me even further away  ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Wafflesyrup
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 03:45
| 24 years of age here. Love Gentle Giant just as much as I do the rest if not more-so in areas. They really are something else. |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 03:46
You may love GG (as I now do, after disliking/not appreciating them for 30 years) but GG were never more than a 3rd division band in the 70s in terms of following. (VDGG are another band that seem much more liked now than in their heyday; only in Italy were they anything more than a cult band in the 70s). I saw GG on tour in 1976 and the hall was only half full; their gigs often didn't sell out. I do agree that, despite the challenges they offer on first hearing, they are essential listening and a truly wonderful band. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 04:42
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I am one of the kiddies referred to somewhat condescendingly (although in good humour I assume) in an earlier post and I can tell you that for whatever reason, youngsters getting into prog are - if they do get beyond prog metal and into 70s prog - directed to Yes/Genesis/ELP/KC/Rush/Tull. Not counting Floyd whose appeal is broader than any of these bands and have fans who don't really like prog rock otherwise. Neither VDGG nor Gentle Giant get into that club, though Camel somehow get a lot of props. That's probably down to Mike Akerfeldt apparently crediting them as an influence, idk. I came to know of both VDGG and GG only through progarchives. And thereafter it took some persuasion to get the few prog-loving friends I know outside PA to give GG a fair shot. I am afraid the goofiness of Shulman's vocal delivery doesn't help matters at all. What could be stylish, groovy prog-funk becomes inadvertent comic relief at times. The first impression this creates can be very hard to get past and only those who hang on (or those lucky ones who connect the very first time) progress to fandom. Consider that most newbs only hear Court from the KC albums so they are blissfully unaware of how demanding KC can get on some albums. Hence, they attribute GG's weirdness to poor songwriting initially until they come to terms with what was attempted in the music. Still, why Yes/Genesis/ELP are at the centre of attention even in the PA forum, let alone the website or other websites/magazines, cannot be accounted for only by the difficulty of new prog rock fans in assimilating their work. If they are supposed to be part of the Big Six, they ought to have a greater following among older fans as well and I am not sure that is the case. Maybe the older fans should share some of the blame.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 11:05
This is one of the reasons why I wanted to have the band list, rather than individual records on those rating things, so it would elevate the rankings a bit better, and stop the preference side of things a bit more, but I think the board is afraid that if you take it away from the "pop", "top ten" idea of things, that most people will leave, because no one agrees with them!
Gentle Giant, however is VERY MUCH an "ACQUIRED TASTE" to borrow one of their terms and is very difficult on the untrained ear that has only heard MELODY used within a top of the pops and top ten style! And on top of it, they are uncompromising to the point of being so distant that many people end up feeling alienated by it.
But it is an insanely amazing amount of music, even though it is not one of my favorites, it is a band that I have tremendous respect for musically ... be it all inventive and just off the wall as Gary Green has suggested many times, or simply just composed, which is not likely to be when it is so wide and apart in the earlier albums.
I have suggested that most metal folks can't listen to GG and appreciate the musicianship behind it. But then, there are a lot of us that love GG, and hate the Metal side of things because it is formulaic and based on loudness and a sound effect only! This is changing lately with some metal bands doing some nice stuff underneath it all.
History, has shown the GG deserves a lot more respect and understanding than we are willing to give it, as a whole, not just as one group of folks, but all of us here. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: schizoidman
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 11:18
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GG is a band that, for whatever reason, I never felt interested in. I will try to lend an ear to their stuff soon.
Cheers! ------------- Making the useless useful 24/7. |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 11:46
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GG are very popular here on PA with all age groups. Not bad for a group who only had a cult following during the 1970s. I wish half the prog bands I listen to had half the ratings GG do.
------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 13:04
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Said before that Gentle Giant never had a specific thing that could project them beyond their music. ELP had the keyboard thing Genesis had the arty thing Yes had the cosmic thing Floyd had the spacey thing GG were a bunch of very anal guys but that's not a good thing to help sell the music. They couldn't even bother with a decent album cover. ELP as a group went to Switzerland to procure their album cover for BSS personally from HR Giger. Gentle Giant would never have done that.Way beneath them intellectually. They were ultra serious musicians the very epitomy of a self conscious prog band so no wonder they flew under the radar. I only started collecting their music about 10-15 years and thankfully this forum has enlightened me to how good they are. I'm catching up like no doubt many others are as well.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 13:19
For me they are a casual listen. I do agree they are an acquired taste, I don't think you just start listening to GG and fall in love.....Similar to VdGG and in some cases for me KC. I was not a big KC fan growing up, only recently have I begun to enjoy their music.......Maybe in 20yrs I will begin to enjoy Gentle Giant  ....but not sure I can get past those album covers  -------------   
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Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 14:01
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I don't agree with Gentle Giant being a "third division" band whatever that means. Who are in the first two divisions? If that is true then YES is a second division band because they weren't as big as Pink Floyd or Genesis. I don't agree entirely with the album cover criticisms either. They had covers done by Roger Dean(although his cover for "Octopus" didn't appear on the US version)and George Underwood. While they aren't that great still they could be worse. Anyway the music is the most important thing isn't it? You can't judge a book by it's cover and you can't judge an album by it's cover either. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 14:41
In what way were Yes not as big as Genesis? Genesis' albums only had higher chart placings from Duke onwards. If you're talking the "classic" prog period then I would argue that Yes were bigger.
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 15:25
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I don't consider them one of the big 6 , never did, and I do have all of their studio albums.
And they are most assuredly an acquired taste as are VDGG imho.
But then the younger members are prolly too busy listening to tech/extreme metal.
 ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 15:51
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Have people here actually looked at the sales statistics for the various groups mentioned? Would probably be interesting, especially if you examine them over time. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 16:04
| As Roger said, I don't think we have to blame the young generations, GG were already comparatively unappreciated in the 70's. I myself had Octopus for many years and didn't care for it nor did it motivate me to buy any other of their albums, it was only quite some years later, somewhere during the 90's, that I became aware of their cult following and gave them another chance and finally I got them and now I like a lot much of their music. Together with my progger friends we must have had albums we loved by many dozens of bands, and yet none of us were fans of GG until we rediscovered them much later. It is only since relatively recently that I see them mentioned as one of the 'big 10' or so. I think their popularity among proggers has grown over the years. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 16:28
I think that's right.........I had a few of their early ones when they came but never really appreciated them until years later. They are one of those bands that kind of fly under the radar in many ways. I know hard core proggers who still don't care for them. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 16:45
YES were bigger as a prog band but Genesis were bigger as a pop band but over all more people know about Genesis than YES because of their commercial/pop success. In the seventies GG weren't too far behind Genesis. My point was GG were a second tier and not third tier prog band. |
Posted By: Olape
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 16:50
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Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 16:51
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Typically GG do fit in as part of the big five(I'm going by other prog sites where I've read this). Typically the big five is: YES GENESIS King Crimson Gentle Giant ELP PF and JT are not universally recognized as prog or big five but I suppose you could toss either one in for a big six. ELP's popularity in prog circles has decreased a lot in the past ten to fifteen years in prog circles. GG are far more respected than ELP these days. So that puts GG in a big five even big four(if there was such a thing). I'm going by my experience talking to hardcore fans and prog internet circles so yeah I know what I'm talking about. Ultimately it's an opinion but if you go by consensus then GG are a lock for a big five or big six position. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 17:11
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Gentle Giant were not even a third tier band globally, even in the Nursery Cryme/Foxtrot era Genesis out-sold them on album and on tour by a considerable margin. At the height of Gentle Giant's US popularity in 1975 they were opening for bands like Golden Earring, Peter Frampton and Foghat while Genesis were headlining. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Olape
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 17:17
That's it! |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 23:02
| To me their polyrhythmic vocal harmonies deserve to be respected for the musicianship, but at the same time I find them hugely annoying. An acquired taste that I've never acquired. They'd have parts of songs that would have a cool medieval thing happening, but then the vocals would kick in and aargh!! What is their purpose? I think one big part of their problem was and continues to be that Prog fans are not as enamored by vocals as much as instrumentals. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 23:20
| ^ Interesting ... 'cause I love their vocal work on things like "On Reflection" and "His Last Voyage". |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 23:23
Actually Gentle Giant opened for Yes in '76 in the US (I saw the San Francisco show). The inside album cover of Playing the Fool included a map that showed all the dates on their extensive Euro/American tour. They may never have broken into the top tiers but it wasn't for lack of trying
 ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 00:05
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Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 00:18
Absolutely not. GG had an album "free hand" which made it to number 48 which is more than I can say for any of the bands you mentioned except for maybe Supertramp. And yes they most certainly were bigger than VDGG in the US at least. VDGG had no charting albums and only played one show. GG toured extensively in the US. Also, it has been suggested that GG were playing the same venues as Genesis was and were as big as them(before Steve Hackett left). While I won't go quite that far the fact is they were playing 1,500 to 4,000 seat venues in the US around the same time Genesis were. Maybe Genesis were filling those seats a little better than GG but the fact remains GG were a pretty big cult band in the seventies and just behind the more mainstream acts(just behind KC). From wikipedia: Studio albums
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Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 01:27
I can only speak to some numbers when the big prog acts toured the San Francisco Bay Area in the mid to late 70's in order of venue size: 1) In '77 I saw Genesis at the SF Winterland ballroom which only held 5,400. 2) The last King Crimson '74 tour they opened for Ten Years After at the SF Cow Palace: 13,000 seats. 3) I saw Gentle Giant open for Yes in '76 at the SF Cow Palace: 13,000 seats. 4) I saw Jethro Tull play the indoor Oakland Arena in '76, '77, '78, & '79 which held 19,500. 5) I saw ELP's Works tour in '77 (no orchestra) also at the Oakland Arena. 6) I saw Yes play 2 nights at the Oakland Arena both in '77 and '78 so that's about 39,000 each year. 7) I saw Genesis move up to the Oakland Arena in '78. 8) The biggest ticket seller of all was Pink Floyd who sold out the outdoor Oakland Coliseum on the May '77 Animals tour...attendance: 63,000...they sold out both nights so 126,000 total! ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 05:08
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At first i didnt like them - but then I kinda acquired the taste
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 05:54
Is this big 4-5-6 only about symp. prog. ?
Otherwise im sure that Jethro, Floyd, Zappa, Oldfield, was way bigger in sales than GG ever was. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 08:18
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I started listening to prog in 1977, and was lucky enough to see Genesis at Earls Court in that year! - That started my love of symphonic progressive rock. However, GG were never on my radar for whatever reason - possibly because they didn't do extended tracks?? I remember looking at Octopus (Cover by R. Dean so it caught my eye) and seeing that all/most tracks were only four minutes (ish) long - I then picked up 1984 by A. Phillips and saw 18 minutes + for track length - so I spent my money on that vinyl instead. I recently listed to GG album 1970 and was singularly unimpressed apart from a few bits of lovely acoustic guitar.... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 08:31
Um, Tull???? Come on, Aqualung got to no.7 in the US and TAAB hit no.1. Oldfield - Tubular Bells hit no.3. Renaissance's Live At Carnegie Hall charted at no.46 so even they managed to just about best Gentle Giant in that regard. I get that you love Gentle Giant and i do as well but there is surely no need to misrepresent charting stats, of all things.
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 11:44
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Around here neither people my generation (born in 1988) or my parents' (both born in 1950) are anywhere as familiar with Gentle Giant as with Genesis, JT, Yes etc. I'd put GG on the same "major cult band" level of popularity as Hawkwind, Magma, VdGG etc. It would not surprise me if GG were way more popular in the UK/US than on the Continent, though. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 12:30
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Based on responses from this thread I would say GG were more well known in the US than in Europe. That would also be the case with Renaissance as far as I know and probably also Nektar. However, VDGG were more well known in Europe. Actually even Genesis were much bigger in Europe in the seventies(ie as a prog band)than they were in the US. A lot of it boils down to exposure such as radio airplay, concerts booked etc etc. I'm hoping maybe this thread will cause an increase in the GG ratings on here. ;) |
Posted By: Xonty
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 12:36
I have rated their albums (no reviews yet though), but I don't own any of them. And in my opinion, I don't think they're as good as King Crimson or ELP, but I agree that they should get more notice  Still a very good and important progressive band - plus I love The Power And The Glory. I've only heard it a couple of times, but I know that I'll probably get much more out of it after a few more (as with most albums in the Eclectic Prog section ), so I reckon that I'll be buying that one pretty soon
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Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 12:38
Dude, I'm not trying to misrepresent anything. Oldfield only had one gold album in the US. Worldwide it sold more but then again Oldfield is not a band now is he? I was focusing more on VDGG, Canterbury etc. More than that I only brought up album sales because some of you were focusing on that. Also no need for the bold type. It's quite unnecessary. I am going mostly by reputation in prog circles. I stand by my original big five or big six comments. GG is in and ELP are out(unless you go purely by album sales which is silly). Ultimately, I feel a lot of it boils down to the members of this site. The vast number of younger members on here can give a certain band the impression that they are less popular or influential than they really are. Other sites have more older members so certain bands are respected more and other bands less where as on here you might think some of these tech metal bands or Dream Theater or whoever are the best thing to happen since sliced bread. I won't take any of this too seriously because like I said I just believe it has to do with the nature of this particular website. For example, I've also noticed relatively few ratings for Happy the Man. HTM are often considered the most influential and important US prog band. I personally would give that accolade to Kansas but HTM would be number two for sure. There is only 100 ratings for their first and 118 for Crafty Hands. Yet IQ, Haken, Pendragon, Riverside, Beardfish, Phideaux, etc etc have over two hundred ratings. It's just not right I tell you. HTM along with probably a lot of other older bands have obviously been buried in the past. GG not as much but still to some degree. My point being I guess is that prog just like any other popular music form is dominated by what's hot and what's new(in other words the flavor of the week). The exceptions ofcourse are the most obvious bands like YES, GENESIS, PF etc. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 12:48
WAT!? You've rated their albums but don't own any!? You "love" Power & Glory but have only heard it a couple of times!? Make a mockery of the PA why don'tcha.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 12:53
I'm hoping it doesn't. They are rated just fine and they are rated by the right kind of people and in the right kind of numbers. The number of ratings reflects their actual popularity, which it seems is vastly different to your assumptions of their populariyt. Last thing we need to do is encourage people to listen to something they probably won't like and will rate down accordingly. ------------- What? |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 13:05
He rated the recently released 22 cd King Crimson Road to Red with 5 stars so he must know what he is talking about. Gee whiz.
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Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 13:20
Bullsh*t! The number of ratings only represents how the kiddies on this site feel about them. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but unless you agree with me you'll never be right. Oh and why do you assume they won't like them? You don't speak for everyone on here. I guess you think you do because you are a site administrator. Ooooooh. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 14:55
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I'm hoping there was some irony in Dean's comments
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 15:12
Wouldn't bet too much money on it, old chap! ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 16:03
While you insist on referring to members of this site as "kiddies" I will never agree with you, nor will I ever want to. I don't presume to speak for anyone other than myself, and I assume nothing. My status as Administrator has no bearing on this and I politely request that you refrain from using my status against me at all. Ever. If I post on the forum in a non-Admin capacity then I am not posting as an Admin. I know this is a difficult concept for some people to grasp but that is the reality: if the topic is related to the site administration or I am actively involved in forum moderation then I am posting in my Admin role, everything else I'm just me - a highly opinionated 56 year old Prog fan with mild attitude issues and a facetious sense of humour. Experience has taught me that you cannot predict anything with any degree of accuracy on this site so I do know that if you draw attention to a band you cannot guarantee that the response you get will necessarily be positive, especially if that increased attention causes one or two of their albums to gain a few places on the Top 100, thus displacing someone else's favourite band/album. Just look through the forum at the number of posts expressing incredulity that a certain album is or is not in the Top 100, much like this one in fact. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 16:53
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Na na na na na na na na na na na na (I'm not listening to you....I have my fingers in my ears). See I can be a kiddie too. Anyway, you tell people not to do something like listen to a band like oh I don't know Gentle Giant and what will they do? They'll go and listen to it. It's like when a parent tells his kids not to do something and what do they do when their parent isn't around? That's why you have under age drinking, smoking etc etc. Trust me GG are nothing compared to Magma or some other stuff. If I was going to pick a band that is really hard to get into it would not be GG(although I suppose it depends on the album)but rather Magma or Univers Zero. GG is easy to listen to compared to them or other stuff. As for your comments about being an administrator well you can never not be one if that's what you are(unless you resigned). It's like an off duty cop. I'm not holding it against you but if you state things a certain way.........I wasn't even going to bring it up again but since you did I'll address it. Also, you can't control what other people do(especially not me). If you are in a site and it says you are an administrator then that is your job. See I just brought it up again. I guess you have to ban me now. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 17:07
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Piss off.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 17:08
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So professional. Maybe you should be demoted.
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 18:04
| Trust me, Dean we would miss, you not so much. |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 18:39
LOL. Who has even had time to listen to that all the way through? ------------- 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 19:16
I had to use the bold type because you rebutted him pretty strongly "Absolutely not" and went on to cite artists who have had albums that charted higher than GG's Free Hand (or any other GG album). Oldfield, Tull were in Gerinski's list. If you only intended to focus on VDGG and Canterbury, you could say so instead of that sentence of yours which I quoted which claims GG charted higher than all of those artists except Supertramp. I have only shown that statement to be incorrect, sorry about that.
I agree that album sales are not particularly important anyway (though they did influence who made up the Bix Five/Six whether we like it or not). All the more reason why there is no need to play down the commercial success of other artists to push up GG a notch. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 19:25
Er, ELP are the most influential prog rock band behind Pink Floyd and King Crimson and maybe Yes and Tull equal them in influence, that's it. GG is not in the frame at all. PF, KC, ELP, Yes and Tull make up the big five but since some prog rock fans hate to see PF called prog or just hate the band straight up, they exclude PF and insert Genesis, which would only figure behind these bands. Anyway, carry on, whatever floats your boat.
That would account for the popularity of Dream Theater but not for that of Yes, Floyd, Genesis, JT, ELP or KC. These are the bands that outdid GG in influence, popularity, sales, etc even in the 70s. Even Gabriel-led Genesis did better, their most ambitious Lamb Lies Down on Broadway getting to no.41. The follow up Trick of the Tail performed even better, getting to no.31. And that was still a prog album and still before Genesis went pop. You mentioned Kansas. Once the second generation bands like Kansas and Rush arrived, even they gained more popularity than Gentle Giant. All of which does not surprise me at all. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 19:46
 ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 20:07
Ask me if I care. |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 20:14
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[Er, ELP are the most influential prog rock band behind Pink Floyd and King Crimson and maybe Yes and Tull equal them in influence, that's it. GG is not in the frame at all. PF, KC, ELP, Yes and Tull make up the big five but since some prog rock fans hate to see PF called prog or just hate the band straight up, they exclude PF and insert Genesis, which would only figure behind these bands. Anyway, carry on, whatever floats your boat] Uh no. There's a difference between influential and popular. In recent years GG has been much more influential in prog circles(as I've already stated)than ELP. It's not just my opinion either(also as I've already mentioned). Album sales don't mean everything in the long run. If they did you would all favor the later Genesis albums over the earlier stuff and we all know that's not the case. I'm not going to keep stating how influential and important GG are folks. I'm done. Also, sorry to burst your bubble but that is not the definitive big five because there really is none but most of the big fives I have seen(ok maybe not on this site which as I have stated before is clogged with kiddies)does include GG. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 21:27
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Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 23:45
I guess you have your own "personal universe" too. But like I said before I am basing my opinions on prog fans' opinions and from other sites. Anyway, Echolyn but also Spock's Beard for a GG influence. Also the band Advent come to mind. But regardless, you don't have to sound like a band to be influenced by them. Go to the polls and see my ELP or GG poll. More PA members chose GG than ELP. How's that for proof? Nuff said. Also, the lists I have seen usually include GG in the big five or big six. They are imo the most important of the "lesser known" bands or maybe the least popular of the better known bands depending on how you want to look at it. Stop pretending GG aren't part of the big six or an important part of prog's history. See, two can play at that game. But you are wrong, many bands used GG as a jumping off point such as Advent, Etcetera and of course Yezda Urfa. ELP's popularity in hardcore prog circles is less than GG's. You just have to accept that fact. If not go back to my ELP vs GG poll and take another peek. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 00:45
I am sorry but which list exactly excluded Tull or Elp to include gg? Secondly, even if there are some such lists, you cannot talk about typical lists in the same breath that you say there are no definitive lists. That is inconsistent and contradictory. Likewise you cannot cite a progarchives poll in the same breath that you blame its membership for its relatively low profile on the website. Can't have the cake and eat it too. Why should I accept your assertion that gg is more popular than elp in hardcore prog circles just because you say so? There are members on this forum who have been into prog since the 70s and they have never said anything that supports your theory. Whether on pa or any general prog/music website or social group, I have never seen gg enjoy more prominence than elp. Just because you have found one or more such, doesn't mean it is the prevailing consensus. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 01:03
Why don't you grow up a bit, and maybe withdraw this post? ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: The Mystical
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 01:18
This whippersnapper is more into canterbury. ------------- I am currently digging: Hawkwind, Rare Bird, Gong, Tangerine Dream, Khan, Iron Butterfly, and all things canterbury and hard-psych. I also love jazz! Please drop me a message with album suggestions. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 07:12
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 08:07
And the shows they did with Golden Earring, they blew them out of town! Here, drive off! But the folks that came to see the show and bought tickets were only interested in Radar Love! Saddest thing ever! Talk about disrespect! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 08:14
Please reference which prog sites you are referring to, please. No one in the history of inane prog banter has ever listed Gentle Giant in the big five. Until now, of course. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 08:21
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The "big five" or "first tier" is purely a popularity thing, not counting just within tight-knit prog circles. So GG are most certainly not a part of either list.
------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 10:31
Fight fight fight. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
|
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 11:09
I have http://www.progarchives.com/album-reviews.asp?id=43721" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/album-reviews.asp?id=43721 ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 12:01
That you have, my friend. Incredibly well done!!! Also. Very entertaining thread. Wouldn't you say? Oh such minds on PA. It's a beautiful thing. 
------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 12:11
| A well done honest review, thanks for contributing to the site. |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 13:02
Thank you for your kind words. I really, really, really wanted to rate it 5 stars because that's exactly what it is for me, a 5 star Crimson dream come true. I mean what are the odds that your favourite band would release a 24 disc box set focusing on your favourite 6 months out of their entire 35 year history? Alas, I had to keep in mind an objective review and rating was the ultimate goal so I followed my conscience and went  ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 13:38
I got the Lark's Tongue box set. If I were to buy the Red one as well, the divorce courts would beckon  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 14:02
|
GG are my 2nd fave band behind Tull. They are the best 2 composers in prog ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 15:25
Ah, yes... I seem to remember... were it not GG who co-headlined that little festival called Cal Jam with Deep Purple? with Kerry Minnear upside down in his spinning piano, Ray Shulman in his 6,000 $ persian carpet playing the custom double neck specially built for him by Zemaitis and John Weathers playing his custom made 2.5 ton stainless steel drum kit with sound synthesizer? not to mention that they had been requested by non other than Bob Moog to test-play in exclusive his prototypes for the new generation of Moog synths. And of course the tour they did with a full orchestra playing Minnear's Concerto No. 1, with trucks featuring the names of each band member on the roof, personal plane... and they released also a triple live LP right? yes yes, of course, how could I have forgotten, every hardcore prog fan knows they were Gentle Giant
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 16:07
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ELP were a band for the moment BUT I do think if people can splurge 5 stars ratings all over Haken with gay abandon then my core understanding of what is inspirational and important music has gone missing.
I should mention that Keith Emerson had massive respect for Gentle Giant and reckoned they created a new style of music. Can't get any better than that really for praise. Lets not fight chaps and remain friends please.
 |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 18:29
I knew it was John Weathers drum solo I saw as he rang that bell with his teeth
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 19:34
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Who's that laying on the floor, Derek or Ray?  A fresh beer for the just arrived Giants  Welcome Back My Friends to the Show That Never Ends… Ladies and Gentlemen, Emerson, Lake & Palmer is a 1974 live album by http://thehelplessdancer.wordpress.com/topic/progressive-rock" rel="nofollow - - Emerson, Lake & Palmer , originally released as a three-disk vinyl album, but is now a double CD, in a gatefold cover, the inside of which used the letters “E”, “L” and “P” as retainers for the individual disks. The album reached #4 on the Billboard album chart making it ELP’s highest charting album in the US. from http://thehelplessdancer.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/" rel="nofollow - http://thehelplessdancer.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/ Now, after the fun, let me say that I have the outmost respect for GG
|
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 19:41
This is what happens in the era of digital music, when listening to tons of music is so easy that it becomes gratuitous.
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 19:48
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This thread escalated quickly..
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 19:56
Ah, that must be the infamous "Tiger in a Spotlight" ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Genital Giant
Date Posted: December 04 2013 at 01:37
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I love King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, etc., but for me, Gentle Giant is the most sophisticated and complicated prog ever written. Love these guys to death. They are the apex for me for what is possible within the genre. I don't think any other band had the arrangement/composition chops these guys had. |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: December 04 2013 at 16:43
What a username. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: December 04 2013 at 16:45
| Be glad there is no avatar to accompany it |
Posted By: Genital Giant
Date Posted: December 04 2013 at 17:19
Ha! I've really gotta work on something..... ;) |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: December 04 2013 at 17:53
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I laughed out loud when i first saw it a while ago.
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 04 2013 at 21:46
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............. |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 04 2013 at 21:49
Biff Kennedy who is a well known(in local radio in my area anyway) prog expert and does the WXPN prog show every year with Dan Reed confirmed when Dan asked if GG were part of the big five. Bif said "oh certainly." Apart from that most fans on progressive ears mention GG when discussing big five or big six lists. I was on there for a long time and saw several of these lists. In all seriousness this is the first time a bunch of people(prog fans no less)have insisted that GG are not qualified to be in any big five list(popular or not). I only started this thread because it seems that members on here don't have a handle on how influential or important this band really are. My suspicions are confirmed with some of these responses and I have to say that I am truly disappointed.
Well I guess it depends on who you talk to. Typically it's as much about who is important as who is popular. GG are mentioned more than RUSH are despite the fact that RUSH are more popular and well known. Even so I suppose according to you ELP wouldn't be on there because PF, YES, JT, RUSH, Kansas and Genesis have all sold more than ELP. As I've said before ELP's popularity among prog collector's has waned a bit. They aren't typically considered as important as they once were imo. But as I said before my poll(on this site no less!!!!)( so obviously it's just a few vocal anti GG fans in this thread arguing with me)showed more votes for GG than ELP. Believe it or not I am just as much of an ELP fan as I am a GG fan. That's not what this is all about. It's about giving credit where credit is due. My only explanation for this lack of GG's respect is that a lot of you are younger fans(I won't say kiddies this time since some of you can't handle my humor)and you haven't been exposed to GG to the degree that you have ELP. Most of the big five lists I have seen go like this(and I will admit GG aren't always on there but they usually are and they are on there just as much as ELP are if not more so): ELP Yes GG GG GG Genesis Yes PF Genesis Pink Floyd KC JT YES GG JT Yes King Crimson KC PF KC Typically those who aren't fans of a certain band will not put them on their list. If I was going strictly by album sales the big five would be: Yes JT PF Genesis Moody Blues If only seventies big five by popularity then yeah ELP would be in there but Genesis wouldn't and would that make sense for a prog list? It would be MB- JT- PF- ELP- KC (Genesis had no gold albums until 1978 but in the court of the crimson king was certified gold in 1977). Now do you see how silly it is if you go strictly by popularity in the seventies? This of course is from a US perspective. I've just noticed that GG have 5 albums in the Progarchives top 100. ELP? They have one(their first). Match point. :D |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: December 04 2013 at 22:14
He's got giant genitals to pull it off. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 04 2013 at 22:19
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^Well that's besides the point. Really, I didn't want to have two posts that were pretty much identical and was not able to delete the first one. Thanks for having confidence in me though. I thought of the term Genital Giant a few years ago though. According to some hardcore GG fans it wasn't new to them though. Oh well. However, I never heard anyone say Jenny Sis until after I did. Anyway, as for the rest of this discussion, I'm done arguing(hopefully). We'll all have to just agree to disagree. |
Posted By: Genital Giant
Date Posted: December 04 2013 at 23:32
Do you want a medal or something? I was in a prog band in the 80's called Genital Giant. |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 05 2013 at 00:24
I wouldn't tell that to many people unless they were GG fans. They might not understand the joke. |
Posted By: Genital Giant
Date Posted: December 05 2013 at 01:31
oh, it's no joke....  |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: December 05 2013 at 04:57
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[Likewise you cannot cite a progarchives poll in the same breath that you
blame its membership for its relatively low profile on the website] Not the same breath. But regardless, I can do that because they are two separate issues. One is the bigger issue and one is just their battle with ELP. |
Posted By: Genital Giant
Date Posted: December 05 2013 at 18:14
| One thing that is tough about Gentle Giant is the sophistication and complexity of their music tends to go over most people's heads, even a lot of Prog fans. I'm a musician and a composer, and I've frankly never run into another GG fan who wasn't at least a musician themselves. I'm not saying you have to be a musician to appreciate GG, but it sure seems to help. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: December 05 2013 at 22:18
 I'm currently re-listening to the 7 GG studio albums I own and I'm on In A Glass House currently.
Some really fine songs but for me there are always a couple on every album that seem more like an exercise in 'self-indulgence ' and/or experimentation than true 'song craft'. And that's not meant as a negative comment per se. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: December 06 2013 at 00:02
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I am not a musician and I adore Gentle Giant. ------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth. |