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Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=87845 Printed Date: December 18 2024 at 19:42 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The First Proto-Prog SongsPosted By: Jonathan
Subject: The First Proto-Prog Songs
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 02:32
Were the First Proto-Prog Songs "She's No There" and "Tell Her No" by the Zombies or was it "Go Now" by The Moody Blues? If these songs aren't Proto-Prog then what was the First Proto-Prog song?
Replies: Posted By: Sheavy
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 03:07
Literally impossible to say. Everyone wil have different opinions.
But I guess I'd go with the Tornados song Telstar, released in 1962.
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Posted By: wjohnd
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 03:23
Sheavy wrote:
Literally impossible to say. Everyone wil have different opinions.
But I guess I'd go with the Tornados song Telstar, released in 1962.
Interesting, what's your rationale?
To me although the instruments sound very much in the mode of a 1950s version of space age, the song structure is very ordinary.
Its a decent tune, for all that.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 04:35
that Tornados cut is hilarious.. but Protoprog? Really? Okay. I mean honestly it sounds like the theme to a gameshow from 1952, 'Guess the Fish! With your host Murray Gallbladder!'
Posted By: Sheavy
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 04:38
It's based off the Telstar communication satellite that song is supposed to invoke a space age feeling.
Also some of the sound effects for that record include someone running a pen around the rim of an ashtray, then playing the tape backword. Certaintly the most Progressive thing (thats rock) that I've heard that came pout before The Beatles started experimenting.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 04:54
maybe but oh god that track makes me laugh
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 05:05
Atavachron wrote:
maybe but oh god that track makes me laugh
as much as this one?:
(1963)
------------- What?
Posted By: progresssaurus
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 05:08
One from many different ways into prog (in their sum) is non classic interpretation of classic music,
for example this piece sounds (for me) like proto -ELP
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 05:45
Atavachron wrote:
maybe but oh god that track makes me laugh
A lot of the prog you love so much makes people laugh too.
I like Telstar a lot and find the space age sound charming, and atleast it sounds less dated than ELP's keyboard sound.
Here's an overlooked 13.42 minute epic suite of protoprog recorded in 1964 (but unfortunately the album wasn't released until 1966, but because of the success of the movie itself the music was certainly out there). Its got some awesome, heavy rockin' galloping rhythms, hard twanging guitar-riffs as the music builds and new (compex) themes appear, changes and reappear throughout. The composition also works as a whole. in '64 and even in '66 this was lightyears ahead of anything else with a related to rock.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 05:55
^ as I said in the Joe Meek suggestion thread - 50s and 60s movie and tv soundtrack are a good place to go looking for spacey electronic music, they're also a good place for blending popular music and rock instrumentation into what is essentially popular classical music - this is basically arriving at Baroque Pop from the opposite direction (adding pop to classical rather than adding classical to pop). Morricone was indeed the master of this.
------------- What?
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 06:07
I also think Torch Songs can be seen as proto-proto-prog - the idea of telling a narative within the song backed by huge production and plenty of bombastic orchestration. From a rock perspective these tend to be more of an influence on cheesy rock ballads however, early Deep Purple tracks like One More Rainy Day and Anthem and Crimson's Epitaph owe a lot to Torch Songs (IMO)
------------- What?
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 06:09
^Indeed. (Edit: the indeed was for the post above the one about torch songs, although I agree with that as well)
Here's a '66 non soundtrack tune from Lalo Schifrin. If Ian Anderson had handled the vocals on this, it would sound like one of those early, jazzy Jethro Tull progfolk-ditties:
Posted By: progresssaurus
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 07:07
1958 - Music by Zdeněk Liška for Karel Zeman's film "Invention of destruction"
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 07:28
Saperlipopette! wrote:
^Indeed. (Edit: the indeed was for the post above the one about torch songs, although I agree with that as well)
Here's a '66 non soundtrack tune from Lalo Schifrin. If Ian Anderson had handled the vocals on this, it would sound like one of those early, jazzy Jethro Tull progfolk-ditties:
::snip::
...that's really rather nice.
I think we have to be careful about making connections in retrospect that didn't exist at the time, just because something sounds like it is proto-prog it does not mean that it was proto-prog. By that I mean the song or composition in question had to have been influential on the emergent genre for us to see it as Proto Prog now. B. Bumble and the Stingers is pretty much self-evident as ELP covered it on Pictures but it is just a vamped-up piece of classical music done in a pop style, it isn't Prog or Proto-Prog, just as Dave Edmund's Love Sculpture version of the Sabre Dance is neither Prog nor Proto Prog.
One statement i think we can make without qualification is Barqoue Pop was one of the precursors to Prog Rock - The Zombies, Moody Blues, Procol Harum, The Move, Love, The Beach Boys and The Beatles all produced 3 minute pop songs that incorporated orchestral elements as an integral thematic part of the composition (as opposed to just the bland orchestral backing that was endemic at the time ... re David Bowie's first album and From Genesis To Revelation). I think it is a leap for Baroque Pop to be seen as Proto Prog, it's proto-Proto Prog - the seed that would lead to longer compositions and even more diverse influences that became Psychedelic Rock/Pop and then Progressive Rock.
But then (in the mid 60s), it all happened very quickly - music developed far more quickly then than it does now - from 1964 to 1968 the explosion in Rock music was phenomenal - In '64 we had Go Now, She's Not There and I Feel Fine (arguably the first proto-psyche song) all sitting comfortably within Pop Music and by '68 we were immersed in full-blown psychedelic rock with long tracks and musical "excess", concept albums, side-long suites (Love, Pretty Things, The Small Faces, The Who, etc.). Yet there is little linearity among all that - it was happening in parallel and often simultaneously or as near as it is possible to get - Piper at the Gates, Saucerful of Secrets, Sgt Pepper, Magical Mystery Tour, Days Of Future Past, In Search Of The Lost Chord, Ogden's Nut Gone Flake, SF Sorrow, Odessey and Oracle, The Twain Shall Meet, In-a-gadda-da-vida, Goodbye and Hello, Tangerine Dream, Easter Everywhere, Are You Experienced, Forever Changes, Their Satanic Majesties Request, etc., etc., etc. - were all released within such close proximty to each other it is impossible to say who influenced who and when.
------------- What?
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 09:13
^I certainly wasn't about to try and rewrite the history of prog with that clip, but the whole album: The Dissection and Reconstruction of Music from the Past as Performed by the Inmates of Lalo Schifrin's Demented Ensemble as a Tribute to the Memory of the Marquis de Sade is a corny concept album pretty much in the same jazzfusion/quasi classical-style throughout. Certainly no masterpiece, but enjoyable.
... Morricone's early eclectic mixture of styles I find highly relevant though and ca. 68-74 he recorded so much (excellent) Jazzrock Fusion/AvantProg/Symphonic Rock I actually consider him a fully fledged Prog Rock artist.
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 13:29
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 16:46
Might as well throw in Dick Dale and the Del Tones from 1963...
Instrumental rock with a nod to Middle-eastern/world music (Misirlou is based on a rebetika song, and the single string lead mimics the oud, an Arabic instrument) . It contains both progressive stylings (It's more authentic 'Kashmir' than Led Zeppelin ), and psychedelia (tell me if several of Dale's riffs weren't directly lifted by Sid Barrett! ).
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 17:37
Moontrekkers Night of the Vampire, 1961.
Featuring guitars, clavioline and finally Meeks eerie screams etc... Wiki informs that:The record was banned by the BBC as being "unsuitable for people of a nervous disposition" when released on the Parlophone label... (maybe posted on that Joe Meek thread Dean mentiones)
Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 18:31
Can I get a nod for Moondog?
"Organ Rounds" (1949):
"Surf Session" (1953 as a single, 1956 on his second full-length album):
------------- "Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: June 24 2012 at 18:36
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: June 25 2012 at 05:53
Chico Hamilton's magnificent albums during the early to mid 60's are somewhat overlooked. Probably because they weren't experimenting with free form avantgarde jazz. But while Coleman and Ayler blew their horns and jazz out of the mainstream and into the finearts, Chico's quintet, with Charles Lloyd's free spirited, wandering, groovin' compositions and especially the eastern/indian/rockin' sounds of hungarian (electric) guitarist Gabor Szabo... practically invented psychedelia and Jazzrock-fusion. Rick Manczarek must have heard Szabo playing at some point before The End. Here's the title track from 1962's Man From Two Worlds:
Check out Szabo's own composition, the 13 minute+ Lady Gabor (from Passin' Thru same year, same lineup. Bonus on CD version of The Man..) for more in a similar vein.
Posted By: NYSPORTSFAN
Date Posted: June 25 2012 at 08:53
Jonathan wrote:
Were the First Proto-Prog Songs "She's No There" and "Tell Her No" by the Zombies or was it "Go Now" by The Moody Blues? If these songs aren't Proto-Prog then what was the First Proto-Prog song?
All the songs you mention are really great songs but nowhere being near proto-prog IMO. I would agree with Ian Macdonald of King Crimson when he says the Beatles, 'Yesterday', was 'the beginning of
progressive-rock' with its inclusion of strings as an integral part of the
texture, and 'suggested to me how classical elements could be brought into rock
music'
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: June 25 2012 at 09:54
ClemofNazareth wrote:
Can I get a nod for Moondog?
"Organ Rounds" (1949):
"Surf Session" (1953 as a single, 1956 on his second full-length album):
Moondog is fking awesome- I have heard a lot of great stuff come from weird recordings i have found on youtube.
Posted By: Jonathan
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 16:41
NYSPORTSFAN wrote:
Jonathan wrote:
Were the First Proto-Prog Songs "She's No There" and "Tell Her No" by the Zombies or was it "Go Now" by The Moody Blues? If these songs aren't Proto-Prog then what was the First Proto-Prog song?
All the songs you mention are really great songs but nowhere being near proto-prog IMO. I would agree with Ian Macdonald of King Crimson when he says the Beatles, 'Yesterday', was 'the beginning of progressive-rock' with its inclusion of strings as an integral part of the texture, and 'suggested to me how classical elements could be brought into rock music'
IMO "Yesterday" is a good song but it's not Proto-Prog because it's not Rock.
Posted By: Einsetumadur
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 10:40
Telstar and the other Joe Meek stuff is definitely on my proto list. Really psychedelic stuff.
What else?
And, definitely, anything from the Byrds. The first one might be "It's No Use" with a breathtaking, and really brief, guitar solo at 1:20. The strange chromatic 'what I love to live' part with the cryptic lyrics also qualifies. These jazzy licks surely were the blueprint for many proto-prog material from America. Jefferson Airplane sounded a lot like the Byrds on their debut album...
------------- All in all each man in all men
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: February 03 2013 at 23:31
Einsetumadur wrote:
Telstar and the other Joe Meek stuff is definitely on my proto list. Really psychedelic stuff.
What else?
And, definitely, anything from the Byrds. The first one might be "It's No Use" with a breathtaking, and really brief, guitar solo at 1:20. The strange chromatic 'what I love to live' part with the cryptic lyrics also qualifies. These jazzy licks surely were the blueprint for many proto-prog material from America. Jefferson Airplane sounded a lot like the Byrds on their debut album...
Mike Bloomfield's East West is one of the two track which always figured to me as the first really progessive instrumentals as well. Bloomfield's epic is beyond these days psychedelia / blues rock movement; Bloomfield guitar's work is amazing.
Also, The Ox, composed by John Entwistle (RIP), from My Generation album, 1965; imo, nobody did do a proggy song like this before :
Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: February 17 2013 at 15:47
Shadow Morton (1940 - 2013) RIP produced the first proto prog song
------------- rotten hound of the burnie crew
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: February 18 2013 at 14:06
Runaway-Del Shanon Tel Star-The Tornadoes Good Vibrations-the Beach boys Norwegian Wood-The Beatles Tomorrow never knows-The Beatles return of the son of monster magnet-Frank Zappa and the mothers of invention Astronomy domine(and others from Piper)Pink Floyd excuse me THE Pink Floyd.
The Zombies actually became more proggish but still proto prog with their Odessey and Oracle album. That's the one that had "time of the season" on it(which imo isn't even the best song on the album).
Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: March 02 2013 at 04:16
We have to be careful here. I am being pedantic but the question is what might be the first Proto-prog song. Song means it has to have "singing". So a number of the tracks put forward don't qualify. But I know, I know who cares?!
I
am glad someone (Prog-Traveller) has put Del Shannon's 1961 hit
"Runaway' in there. The song itself isn't all that proto-prog but the
unusual-for-its-day 26 sec musical interlude (from 1.10 to 1.36) with
Shannon's keyboardist, Max Crook playing his self-invented
clavione-based electric keyboard, the Musitron, makes this track very
different from anything that was released before it. Listen here:
If
we are allowed to include just music, then The Dr Who theme from 1963
is right up there. Fascinating reading here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who_theme_music Funny I
always thought that this recording was the first moog synthesizer track
ever but it is not a moog synthesizer at all. Here's the theme:
Then
there is what I believe is really the first proto-prog song. The Byrds
"Eight Miles High" first recorded in December 1965 for RCA, which was
some 4 months before the better known version was released in early
1966. I understand someone putting forward "It's No Use" by the Byrds
but "Eight Miles High is pure proto-prog from go to whoa. What a
fantastic song! Here's the 1965 version:
And here is the more familiar one from early 1966. They are quite different.
Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: March 02 2013 at 04:32
------------- This night wounds time.
Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: March 02 2013 at 04:55
ole-the-first wrote:
Sorry ole..I can't hear anything that is proto-prog in this song. Please explain.
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 17 2013 at 10:56
Lot of interesting choices from bands and people in the very early days there , but to me the so-called proto prog sound came out of the early psychedelic rock bands (65-68) who eventually morphed into prog; particularly the Brit bands.
If we keep pushing the envelope back to some of the early electronic oddities, and other jazz musicians mentioned then we start straying from rock as someone mentioned above and it becomes progressive music in general and not prog rock imho.
For me when The Beatles did songs like Tommorrow never Knows, Strawberry Fields, and I Am The Walrus that's as proto prog as it gets....along with all the other psych rock and psych pop bands back then who had many early prog elements in their songs.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: March 17 2013 at 11:23
BarryGlibb wrote:
ole-the-first wrote:
Sorry ole..I can't hear anything that is proto-prog in this song. Please explain.
1. Unconventional song structure. It starts like a lullaby and then building up into the journey of dream. Six different melodies were used in less than three minutes instead of verse-chorus structure. 2. Use of symphonic arrangements.
Isn't that enough to consider this song non-conventional and experimental, and so also proto-progressive?
------------- This night wounds time.
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 17 2013 at 11:31
Not to throw a monkey wrench into the works but are we talking about proto prog rock or just early proto progressive music in any genre..?
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: Mirkwood
Date Posted: March 17 2013 at 13:27