Am I the only guy here who thinks that Mayhew's drumming on Trespass is actually on par with the other members?

Basically every second review of Trespass says that his drumming ruined the album. I think that, considering the structure and arrangements of the songs themselves, he did a fine job. What do you think?

A great review! He explained it perfectly. Just what I was trying to point out here.

When Ant Phillips left, and they wanted to recruit a new guitarist, all felt that they needed a better drummer to take the band forward, given that all were committed to making Genesis work on a full time basis.

They most certainly did get a better drummer.

I understand that perfectly. I'm just saying that for me, there's nothing wrong in his playing on Trespass, and a lot of people have been implying the opposite.

 

exactly...

 

Too many people compare it with future gen albums... Mayhew's drumming is apt... doesn't magnify the music as Collins' would in later albums...

 

If you don't notice the drumming in a song, it's definitely not ruining it.... if you do notice it, then there is a chance that it's either excellent .... or awful.... and it's neither in Trespass

 

 

 

I'm thinking we should say ... "was".

I much prefer the drumming he did in almost all his side things and work. The stuff he did with Eno is very good, the stuff on Brand X is very nice ... and the early Genesis stuff is ... beyond discussion, up to the live album and "Los Endos" ... I kinda think that Genesis lost a magnificent drummer, that was helping the music a lot, when he started singing full time ... I would think that it is not easy and probably impossible to do all that singing and drumming at the same time.

 

People have often said in the past that Anthony Phillips sounds like Genesis but it's more like the writings of Tony Banks. All the great signature lines came out of Banks. Everything you hear practically that makes you love Genesis ...he wrote it. Selling England, the Lamb, Foxtrot. He had an idea for  an original style and was admired by those around him like Keith Emerson and others, so he was very particular in choosing who to hire. He probably wasn't easy to work with. 

It does the job perfectly well but his days were numbered.

I guess you all know that sadly, John is no longer with us but he did come along to a Genesis convention in London a few years ago.

Errrr.....YES! 

To me, this comment is like saying "maybe I should try breathing air or drinking water one of these days......."

 

Fair enough, and no one's opinion is "wrong." Still... you're saying that you regard Phil as a "fancy metronome" whose playing doesn't "enter your stream of musical consciousness," but John Mayhew's drumming does catch your attention? Again, fair enough and I have heard some Yes fans say that they prefer Peter Banks to Steve Howe, but I've just never heard anyone big up John Mayhew while referring to PC as a fancy metronome whose playing doesn't register with them.

 

Flyingsod wrote: Mayhew's drumming manages to wrest my attention away from the more musical instruments several times though

 

It's probably because he wasn't  rythmically locked in with them!  (just having a bit of fun!)

He was perfect for Trespass, very few drummers could had made it, because it has very complex sections, I know that in a long term Collins was the best Genesis drummer (with the bonus of his great backing vocals), but I don't know if he would had done a better job with Trespass.

I don't believe Trespass is the best Genesis album, but I consider it better than SEbtP, The Lamb and every Collins era album.

Iván

 

Ditto.  He was competent if not exceptional.

 

Trust me, he would have...

 

You don't really know that; the band was still young and not all that tight themselves.  I'm not sure Phil could have added all that much more to Trespass.

 

John Anthony (Genesis/VdGG producer) discussing the problems with Trespass: "John Mayhew couldn't really drum; he wasn't giving them time, he was following theirs... [Trespass] was like a beautiful work, without the necessary foundation, and this was very much felt."

 

I'll go with his (and my own ears') assessment. Remember, the band fired JM and there was a reason for that.

 

Armando Gallo (famed Genesis biographer/friend) discussing Trespass: "...a frustrating album to listen to because you can feel the direction that the band were moving towards, and the difficulty that they were having getting there. The rhythm section of Mike on bass and John Mayhew's drums is never confident enough to give the album a solid foudation."

 

And then once Phil joins for Nursery Cryme... Armando Gallo: "Phil's powerful drumming makes them sound like a real band."

 

Again, I don't think JM's playing sinks the album and he is at least adequate. Certainly his playing allowed the band to complete what turned out to be a good, solid album. But it would have been better (the aggressive sections would have had more fire and power, the complicated bits would have sounded smoother and more confident, etc) with Phil (or Guy Evans, or Alan White, or Franz DiCiocco, or Mike Giles, etc) on drums.

 

 

On the other hand, if I think about the band Yes...

 

 

infandous wrote: I think the album gets a lot of its charm from the somewhat tentative performances of all the band members (compared to later albums, at any rate).  Phil may well have been able to do a better job, but I think the whole character of the album would have changed and it wouldn't be so unique in their discography.  So for that, I'm glad Mayhew was the drummer, even if I much prefer Collins drumming in general.  Definitely doesn't ruin the album for me.

 

Still, I'm not sure that my T&AW / Trespass situation is an apt analogy because I think Peter Banks was a better guitarist than John Mayhew was a drummer (Banks, while not as good as Howe, was at least a good, really talented guitarist whereas I just don't think the same about John Mayhew's drumming)

I completely disagree with him, his work at Nursery Cryme is terrible, the drums sound as tin cans, this is not Phil's responsability, but the producer's who did a sub-par job.

I feel that Trespass is well balanced and everybody was perfect for the album.

BTW: The time had to be given by the full rhythm section, and if you blame Mayhew, you must blame Mike also. but Mike really developed, we don't know how much John could had evolved in time.

 

I honestly don't trust john Anthony too much, remember that Genesis  started to work with David Hitchcock who improved the sound clearly in Foxtrot

 

bucka001 wrote: Armando Gallo (famed Genesis biographer/friend) discussing Trespass: "...a frustrating album to listen to because you can feel the direction that the band were moving towards, and the difficulty that they were having getting there. The rhythm section of Mike on bass and John Mayhew's drums is never confident enough to give the album a solid foudation."

 

Again, Gallo blames Mayhew and Rutherford, but Mike improved a lot, I believe Genesis was a bit unfair with John, to the point that he had some "negotiations"  Genesis for his royalties on Trespass at least until 2006   http://www.worldofgenesis.com/JohnMayhewInterview2006-Page2.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.worldofgenesis.com/JohnMayhewInterview2006-Page2.htm   which I'm not sure if he ever got

Iván 

 

 

 

He was there, so if there was a problem with the drumming (and if the band had a problem with JM) he would know. And even if he never said it, I think one can hear it. JA's no fool, I talked to him at length a couple of times while doing the VdGG book, and he's a very sharp music guy with a great track record (besides working with Genesis and VdGG, he produced Queen, Roxy Music, Al Stewart, and had a major production hit with "How Long" by Ace)

 

 

 

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: his work at Nursery Cryme is terrible

 

I thought it was a very good production job, and he did a fantastic job with Pawn Hearts the same year.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: BTW: The time had to be given by the full rhythm section, and if you blame Mayhew, you must blame Mike also.

 

You can have Stanley Clarke on bass, and if the drummer is not very good (following time instead of giving it, etc) then it's not going to sound very good. Phil Collins once said that a great drummer can make a mediocre band sound great, and a mediocre drummer can make a great band sound mediocre. In my own experience, I've seen that to be the case (both scenarios). So, there's nothing Mike could have done.

 

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: I honestly don't trust john Anthony too much, remember that Genesis  started to work with David Hitchcock who improved the sound clearly in Foxtrot

 

Not by choice. JA got the boot by Strat for spending too much time on the Happy The Man single (so the story goes) and Gallo wished that JA had done Foxtrot. I, too, don't think that Foxtrot is any big improvement over NC (although the 9/8 section of Supper's Ready is sonically awesome).

 

I also think Genesis was fair with JM. He just wasn't very good. They weren't horrible people, so to do something as unpleasant as firing someone in a band, there had to have been a reason. The reason was they knew they could do a lot better.

 

 

A very apt analogy - very well stated...

Tresspass is very feminine except for "The Knife"...soft 12 strings...excellent album especially Stagnation, I just Love he guitar motif when Gabriel sighs..."and must I wait forever......"

But - Then came in Collins and Nursery Cryme was an overall marked improvement on Trespass......Only weak track is the "For Absent Friends...",  Salmacis.... is in the top 50 prog tracks of all time (well of the ones I've heard anyway)...then the Foxtrot - "Suppers Ready"......and you're into the top 20 tracks of all time.....

AND THEN THE MASTERPIECE......Selling England by the pound...the best symphonic prog album of the seventies by a freaking country mile......has three of the top 10 prog tracks of all time and the BEST prog guitar solo to boot.....

The lamb had a lot to live up to after that and sadly (though still excellent) droppped below the standards set in the previous 3 recordings...similarly TOTT and then a big improvement in WAW - even with collins singing this captures earlier glories with the excellent - Blood on the Rooftops.....

It's all about opinions bu I reckon 99.99% of Genesis freaks would consider that SeBTP to be their pinnacle.....

Who disagrees???

I must admit that Mayhew is bad.  He either marks time like a metronome or he shovels in fill after fill.  There is very little actual drumming going on except in a few parts on White Mountain.

This woke me up.  I paid attention to every single drummer I listened to afterwords.  The only drummer who seemed to do as poorly was a drummer who belongs to a knock off heavy metal band which shall remain nameless.

And I don't think Rutherford deserves the same criticism.  There were plenty of places on the first side of Trespass where Rutherford went his own way.

I have a bootleg copy of White Mountain where Buford does the drumming.  I hope to get to that soon and see where he went with that.

To sum uo, it is amazing that Trespass is so good with drumming so bad.

I tend to go further and say Collins closed to ruined it for me. It doesn't need his 'overly busy' style all over it. I expect people already know this but The Knife came from an earlier track recorded by The Nice called 'Rondo'. There is a very similar situation regarding Carl Palmer playing that track with ELP and Brian Davison playing in on the original album. Davison was a limited (although very good) drummer but Rondo was ideally suited to it his style. Powerfull driving but unfussy. Palmer wanted to do more with it but it just didn't need it. (although at least Palmer didn't feel the need to blow a whistle during it)

 

Actually, also speaking as a drummer, some choice spots of imprecision in his drumming technique actually does diminish the quality of the album IMO.  For example, compare The Knife original to Collins' playing live.  Collins' precision and skill overrules - and enhances - the quality of that piece of music.  And, it is not the only one from Trespass enhanced in that way...

I get what you're saying - I really do, but I must stress that I personally find 'mistakes' in music very charming - even when they're not meant to be there. I adore Collins and think he was a far better drummer than Mayhew, but then again Trespass would never have been the record it is with Collins behind the kit.

 
In the late 70's, Prog was sinking to the complete underground level. The ideas formed naturally in 1970 whether you were in front of the fireplace or traveling on a bus through a snow blizzard. But ..it's still music and not so much the times we were living in. Music could still be written with great diversity today if only something had not gone wrong decades after the original Prog empire fell by the wayside. Back in 1971 Curved Air sounded nothing like King Crimson apart from maybe a few forgiving notes. Most bands were so incredible at being diverse from one another and yet so distinctive in style. Unfortunately there were some "copy cats" that were not very creative. The ability to create fine original sounding music is still there today, but it is overshadowed by an attitude to disrespect Classical composers and insist that by dismissing them, real originality will form from you and in it's best. Do you realize how moronic that is? To be able to play Classical music to perfection on the piano and stand in front of the other teachers defending your purpose and belief? This is a concept that will not work. You can't walk around in life learning history to get your degree and then move on in life disregarding all your knowledge as farce, mocking it, and claiming it's bad influence prevailing over you to invade your own personal creativity. That's not how original creative music was written during it's process in other decades. This is like a moronic demonstration and denial of respect for creative composers from other centuries who laid foundations for music education. If people continue to spread this kind of attitude..the music will suffer.

I think you misconstrued the thrust of my nostalgia! I am not dismissing the contemporary artist whether he be genius or a journey-man. However if you create an album full of 12 string melodies (feminine was suggested by some critics and connoisseurs ), people are immediately going to say that you are heavily influenced by early Genesis - I am thinking of big-big train here - they are trying (and in my opinion failing miserably) to create another flavour of English Symphonic prog - but since that is only my opinion if can be taken with a pinch of salt for those fans of BBT it's just not "my cup of tea". The early seventies was the launch of symphonic prog, that is a fact and no band currently can hope to claim to "launch" symphonic prog - that is the gist of my argument.

Just gave Trespass another spin today. The drum roll near the end of Stagnation is terrible. The drumming on The Knife is hardly better in my opinion. Have read nothing to suggest there were any personality conflicts between Mayhew and Banks. The fortunes improved for Genesis the moment Mayhew was replaced by Collins, so if Banks was behind the move to replace Mayhew, then I would call it good judgement by Banks to replace him.

 

I definitely agree with you, though, about John Anthony's production. I think he was a fine producer, but those early albums (Trespass, The Least...) did have a muddled murkiness about them. He even admitted years later that his production on Trespass wasn't up to snuff. About a year or so after Trespass, though, he was doing fantastic work on Pawn Hearts which still stands up today.

 

Also agree that JM's drumming didn't ruin the album (not by any stretch). His playing is serviceable. It may not add much to the music, but it doesn't kill it either (kind of like a "game manager" type of backup, 2nd string quarterback [for you U.S. football fans] who isn't going to throw for 300 yards, or make 30 - 40 yard completions, but he's not going to throw interceptions or fumble the ball away either).

That's what I was doing (because I thought Tom O was doing that and saying Guy and JM were similar in '70; they weren't, Guy was much better, but I might have misunderstood that Tom was referring to the way both were produced by John Anthony). 

This is heresy of the rankest sort.

And, yeah, Mike Giles had great feel - he was no Bruford, but his touch really enhanced ITCOTCK.