Vangelis - Prog?
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Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82569
Printed Date: December 19 2024 at 00:06
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Topic: Vangelis - Prog?
Posted By: digdug
Subject: Vangelis - Prog?
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 10:10
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Everyone seems to have their own definition of prog The powers that be within PA have slotted Vangelis into the Prog Related genre. I am interested to hear peoples opinions ------------- Prog On! |
Replies:
Posted By: Morningrise
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 10:26
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2nd option because of albums such as The Dragon, Earth, Albedo 0.39, etc. The fact he is listed in Prog Related and Nine Inch Nails and Bjork are in Crossover Prog is laughable. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 13:23
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I'm a little bit reticent to get involved in another of these conversations, but, to answer the question, no hesitation in describing him as prog. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 13:28
This. Bjork is mainstream pop with a few quirks. Keep waiting for Lady Gaga to show up in crossover. ------------- 
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Morningrise wrote:Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 13:53
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this has been discussed a few times before. Vangelis certianly has albums that I would describe as Prog, so yeah. I certianly think Vangelis better suited to a prog category. I think had he just released albums such as Hypothesis and Dragon, he'd definitely be in a Prog category (Hypothesis and Dragon are my faves of his, and I think i became aware of them due to an earlier discussion) I cannot fathom why anyone would have voted "Not Prog at all - IMO" unless said person is not that familiar with his material. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: digdug
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 13:59
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he is prog for sure - no doubt in my mind :) even the least proggiest of his albums are still prog to me I have heard about 7 or 8 of them not sure exactly which category he belongs in though ------------- Prog On! |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 14:00
Progressive Electronic, but they are very snooty over there. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 14:14
Talking Heads are in prog related - Get your facts right ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 14:16
I wouldn't say snooty, but strict. Vangelis was declined for
Progressive Electronic, and I think an Art Rock sub such as Crossover
could fit work of his well (or Eclectic ). He has electronic, jazzy,
avant Prog, psych Krautrocky, and more classical symphish pieces. EDIT: By the way, Morningrise, I'm really sick of those kinds of comments and don't find it constructive at all. I don't think that the Crossover team ever even evaluated Vangelis (he was in PR before even the formation of that team) so it's not that relevant if you know how teams work and the process goes. Prog Related was supported by the Electronic team as I recall. Digdug, of the albums you have, do you have Hypothesis and Dragon? What albums do you think most suitable to a Prog category that you have? ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 14:25
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I don't get the V-man being relegated to mere prog related. Larry Fast's Synergy is there, too. What the hey, he's in good company.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 14:29
You are probably right.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 14:37
He is in good company, and I agree I am not sure I understand the prog related route either but one thing this site shows up time and time again is....subjectivity  ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 14:38
I have great respect for Philippe, and for Rico while he was on the team. It's actually been one of the team threads that I've most enjoyed visiting/ making sugesstions to. Both very personable, insightful, quick to respond, thorough in response, easy to talk to, and enthusiastic when they enjoy the music.. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 15:00
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 15:08
Beaubourg! It's good Borg, Vangelis must be prog assimilated. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Morningrise
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 17:58
My bad. I remembered that between Talking Heads, Bjork, and Nine Inch Nails,two of those bands were listed as crossover. I even checked to see which of those two were. But at the time of my post I put Talking Heads instead of Nine Inch Nails. Fixed now.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 18:02
Wait a second, wait a second!!! Windham Hill reissued Beauborg??? Windham Hill???? Nah, I was surprised when I found the French Frith Kaiser Thompson album, Invisible Means, on the label. You know, that album isn't as bad as I remembered, granted I stopped that clip after about 30 seconds. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Morningrise
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 18:18
My comment wasn't meant to be taken as an attack to the crossover team. Perhaps it came out rude. It wasn't my intention. I was just trying to say that to my ears Vangelis is much proggier than Bjork and Nine Inch Nails. And that he deserves to be in another category rather than Prog Related. Progressive Electronic seems more suitable.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 18:46
I was there and supported some controversial additions and don't regret or take offense with someone disagrees. I don't really know Bjork that well, but I would have been happy with NIN in PR. And yes, I do find Vangelis more prog than NIN, but I do appreciate the prog and prog influences in Reznor's work. But I'd still like to hear from the folks who didn't approve of Vangelis or Synergy for progressive electronic if they still stand by that, why, or if might they want to reconsider... ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 22:27
I'm no fan. Infact most of her music and her voice annoys me most of the time. But Medulla, Volta and Biophilia is far from mainstream pop with a few quirks. I'd say she's more truly progressive than any of the bands still competing in that Post 70's world Cup. - Vangelis is prog no doubt. He should be in Eclectic... or I don't know. The ones I've kept in my collection by him are: Hypothesis, The Dragon, Sex Power, Earth, Heaven and Hell, L'apocalypse des Animaux, Albedo 039, Beaubourg. Eight albums in almost as many different genres. |
Posted By: digdug
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 08:39
Here are my Vangelis albums The Dragon - 1971 - Sounds like Krautrock to me L'Apocalypse des Animaux - 1973 - more ambient - Prog Electronic fits Earth - 1973 - all over the map - but definitely prog Heaven and Hell - 1975 - this could easily fit under Avant Chariots of Fire - 1981 - softer - almost classical - but prog 1492 Conquest of Paradise - 1992 - softer - almost classical - but prog El Greco - 1998 - softer - almost classical - but prog I also used to have Blade Runner.... but this seems to have disappeared :( Overall , I guess I would throw him in eclectic :) ------------- Prog On! |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 08:49
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The only Vangelis album I love? Blade Runner. The Vangelis albums I've heard? I think the first ten or so. How do I feel about them? Oh I hate the hell out of them. God, I can't stand them. Are they prog? Listen, bubs, if Heaven and Hell ain't prog, then Tangerine Dream needs a swift boot out the door. That empty Zeit crap is prog-electronic but Heaven and Hell is only 'related to' prog? Can't this site strike up a feasible internal logic for a change? :P
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 09:26
Quoting both, and adding in more of my posts, since they relate and help make the case for eclectic. Cool! Thanks. I could definitely see him in Eclectic , and methinks it may be about time that that team check it (I used to be on it and may still have a vote, but would be rude of me to intrude after all this time). Maybe let this thread develop a bit more first since it'll help as people post more youtube vids (plus the other such discussions that have happened). It would take Admin plus Eclectic team approval to move it, I believe. I think one reason why it is still in Related is because it was rejected for Prog Electronic, but no other Prog category team has evaluated it to my knowledge. I have Hypothesis, Dragon, L'apocalypse..., Sex Power, Beauborg, Heaven and Hell, and have had music from a lot of his later soundtrack works as well (Blade Runner, Antarctica, The Bounty). Just re-posting some music and adding to it (in order of his albums): ../album.asp?id=9448" rel="nofollow - Sex Power 1969 (such an underrated album at PA) ../album.asp?id=9447" rel="nofollow - Fais Que Ton Reve Soit Plus Long Que La Nuit 1971 ../album.asp?id=7571" rel="nofollow - Hypothesis 1971 ../album.asp?id=7565" rel="nofollow - The Dragon 1971 ../album.asp?id=7566" rel="nofollow - L' Apocalypse des Animaux 1973 ../album.asp?id=7543" rel="nofollow - Earth 1973 ../album.asp?id=7522" rel="nofollow - Heaven And Hell 1975 ../album.asp?id=7542" rel="nofollow - Albedo 0.39 1976 ../album.asp?id=7563" rel="nofollow - La Fęte Sauvage 1976 That's enough from me for now. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 09:35
It's situations like this that had me petitioning for a more formal and transparent inclusion process in that other thread a month back or so, but no, everyone said I was a moron. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 10:08
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If it was only for "Heaven & Hell", I would claim Vangelis for Symphonic (Extremely close to 666), but his career is too diverse. He has more than one full Prog album, so he should be considered Prog IMO. Now, I'm more oriented for Eclectic or Crossover. I never use the if X why not Y argument, but I will make an exception, because I believe it's hallucinating to have Tori Amos and Robert Plant as full Prog, while Vangelis is lumped in Prog Related Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 10:20
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Should only be allowed to be PRog if he accepts certain austerity measures ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 11:12
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The only connection I see as value between Vangelis and prog is in fact part of his history where Jon Anderson desperately attempted to make him a member of YES. Only then ...during that time it seemed as if he would become the next Wakeman or Emerson.....recording and touring with a progressive rock band, but in the end I suppose it was up to the musician's union ...or whatever reason?...Jon Anderson didn't have the time to waste and hired someone else. Vangelis was considered a progressive rock keyboardist by your prog icons, but he was diverse and dismissed the proposition continuing to make a living composing soundtracks. What made his RCA releases to sound more prog crossover than other Electronic artists was the fact that he played drums and steered clear of the drum machine death trap for a while. Take for example when Tangerine Dream released Force Majeure....it sounded more prog in sections due to the employed drummer.
To a slight degree it's like taking the electronic out of electronic and replacing it with real instruments which is more prominet in prog. His catalog is very diverse. One title may be electronic while the next one is opera. The early period of his career is focused more on "Progressive Rock" like the Dragon and the RCA releases. For a while he was labeled a "New Age' artist. Clearly this doesn't have too much to do with Prog other than minor excerpts clocking in at 4 to 5 minutes. Like Mike Oldfield ....he is a composer that perhaps cannot be pigeon-holed to any particular style of music and with consistency. David Bedford recorded 1 rock album and the rest of his catalog is simply him being a composer of diverse magnitude or measures. Vangelis is in the same classification..
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 12:17
The rule says ONE Prog album
If it was only for those FOUR albums on three different genres, he would deserve to be in Eclectic or Crossover. I haven't heard L'Apocalypse Des Animaux, but I found buried in one old box and will listen it right now, because I understand it's also pure Prog. For God's sake, aren't FOUR FULL Prog albums enough for Vangelis and a partially Proggish album enough for others? Iván -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 12:18
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The connection I see of real value to this site is that he has more than sufficient materal/ albums to be included in a PA prog category. Lots of artists can't easily be pigeonholed/ work in diverse styles, but for evaluation we should focus on the most deemed Prog Archives-relevant albums, and not let the other material keep an artist out of a prog category, in my opinion. Vangelis himself is not Prog, and I don't call artists Prog, only artist's music, but he sure has music that fits PA's Prog umbrella. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 14:29
You should try some of his earlier albums, if you haven't already (see the clips I posted). I have suggested to the Eclectic team to look into a move there (failing that Xover). They would need admin permission, and we'll see what they think when they have the time to look into it. This has been so mnay discussions over the years on this, and I hope this one might finally make the difference. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: jean-marie
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 15:12
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Prog for sure, he already was prog with Aphrodite'schild first album ( End of the world ) Just listen carefully to tracks like : the grass is no green, day of the fool or the sheperd and the moon...It was kind of prog genesis.......
------------- FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT |
Posted By: jean-marie
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 15:26
------------- FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 15:31
Whaaa???? It all sounds like sqeeee eee eeeekkk to me dammit! You know, I think I remember some verbiage on the cover but dammed if that thing totally didn't work for me when I first heard it. The same thing with those two albums with the sci-fi covers. I was backwards exploring and terribly disappointed by all of that. Heaven And Hell and Albedo 90210 remain tops for me. Spiral too. I don't hear the particular distinctions in sub genres that Ivan does though. It all sounds progressive electronic to me. Maybe my problem is that I find all good synthesizer dominated music to be the epitome of progressive electronic. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 15:38
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I certianly wouldn't call Invisible Connections Prog per se, it's more minimalist, experimental, musique concrete. Very good album, but more in the Stockhausen tradition, than, say, ELP. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 15:52
Probably as Prog as From Genesis to the Revelation (hich is not Prog), but that's not the point here, Aphrodite's Child is already in Prog Archive, mostly due to 666. Now let's hope Vangelis is moved to Eclectic or Xover. Iván BTW: In the case of Phillipe, I would ad rejected Vangelis from Electronic, because he doesn't fit there due to the eclectic nature of his music. So as Logan I believe he would fit in Eclectic and/or Xover. Iván -------------
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 15:53
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he should be in electronic prog. He belongs to the monsters of electronic music, together with TD, Klaus Schulze and Jean-Michel Jarre.
What the hell is he doing in prog-related ????
And why is Jean-Michel Jarre in Prog-related as well ???? ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 16:05
I have them all, and it's quite funny how. My parents always traveled to USA to Antique events, and normally i gave them a huge list of Prog albums (betwen 15 or 20 each time) that they brought me (There was no Prog in Perú), no matter how hard was for them to find this list. But this time in 1982 they left Perú one night without previous notice because there was an amazing piece that was going to be sold to another person if they didn't pay for it, being that it was a lot of money, they had to see it. As usual my sister had her list of things ready (mostly Levis Jeans and some fancy clothes), but I didn't had it. So before they left, my mother asked me what band i was listening, I told her i had just discovered Vangelis (Heaven & Hell) and was very impressed.
So after a week, she came with more or less 20 Vangelis albums, most of which I didn't liked because I expected more Symphonic styled like Heaven & Hell and Found Jon & Vangelis extremely cheesy. So still I have a couple in a box hat I never heard. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 17:01
I also do not see why Vangelis and JMJ are not in Prog Electronic. That's where they make the most sense. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 17:10
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Fellow members, we thank you for bringing up this matter once more (count must be of double digits now) and showing such great interest in it. We would also like to remind you, however, that this will still be of no avail.
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 17:24
 Yes! This one I have and I must totally agree with you. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 18:02
Great anecdote! Incidentally, Heaven and Hell used to be my favourite. Well, before that i was really into the kind of Vangelis that you would have found in the New Age section of a store. And dare I say, I once loved Jon & Vangelis. I saw Anderson in concert with Kitaro, which was cheesy, but I liked it at the time. I got my most prized LPs from a godfather who picked me up some albums while he was on a trip in France when I was a kid -- if only I still had them, some of them would be worth a lot now. Dig out Dragon at some time. I don't know if it'll fit your tastes really, but it is quite a trip.
What albums/ period is that primarily focuseed on? I think you should focus on his 70s albums in particular. I guess you listened to the tracks I posted earlier in this thread to help with the evaluation. I respectfully don't agree with you. Not just because Vangelis has covered more ground than electronic music, but because I don't think that represents well his most Prog category applicable material. Sure, he has some experimental electronic albums, and electronic partially describes what albums make him PA worthy, but it paints the wrong picture to me. I think people will think he's here more for his soundtracks such as Blade Runner and the Bounty than for albums such as Hypothesis and The Dragon. If it were just about his really electronic albums, I wouldn't really be keen on him in more than Prog Related. He may be a monster of electronic music (especially that often labelled, or mislabeled New Age) but not a monster of the kind of Progressive Electronic music that that PA category represents.
Who do you mean by we? Is it a royal we? If you mean Philippe and you, well some of us are not suggesting him for Prog Electronic. I accept that he was not accepted for that category, but still think (though with Rob's appraisal it's looking less likely) he could find a place in an Art Rock sub (was he neixed for Art Rock before. However, if M@X has vetoed Vangelis in any prog category, there's nothing that can be done, and tell us now. It may be a long shot, I don't know what's transpired in the past with the admin regarding this band, and they may not allow it, or there may be pre-existing conditions that would not permit his being evaluated by Eclectic or Crossover. Perhaps you are just referring to those posts asking for him to be in Progressive Electronic -- your post is rather ambiguous. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 18:09
Not less likely- just that if I were 100% in charge of the database, I would put Vangelis in Prog Electronic. However, I don't see why he's merely related to prog. A large body of his compositions are progressive, so that should be enough to move him into a prog subgenre. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 18:24
Though not what I'd call Prog, and very far removed from the likes of ELP (thank god! ) at least it shows that he wasn't just some mainstream soundtrack, or "New Age" (as he has often been labelled), guy in the 80s. It's pretty retro though, isn't it?
I'd put Jarre in Prog Electronic. I think Oxygene and Equinoxe really applicable. Vangelis less so for me for that category since I think that various of his most applicable to PA works are not what I would label electronic (or at least for some, solely label as electronic) -- The Dragon and Hypothesis are two great examples of that (not the only ones) and I wonder how those albums factored into the initial PA evaluation. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 19:19
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I am sure we would have him in crossover, cannot fathom prog related for this artist. The obvious place would be prog electronic but I know that has been declined. Heaven and Hell is almost symphonic as is Oceanic......hell just good he is on here with so many intelligent reviews ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 19:41
I'd only advocate for crossover as a last resort. Prog related is honor enough if any of the other teams don't want to take him in. Crossover seem a bit of a stretch. Eclectic or symphonic, too. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 22:03
^ well he stays put...I certainly ain't motivating didley squat ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 23:03
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^^ I wouldn't see Vangelis in Symphonic Prog even though there is symph-oriented music. I wouldn't have thought moving Vangelis to Eclectic or Crossover (be kind of nice for me to see him in the same category as Oldfield) too much of a stretch. Now a move to Tech/Extreme Prog metal, that would leave some serious stretch marks.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 03:44
How on earth is eclectic a bit of a stretch? Vangelis is more eclectic prog than all the bands with albums in the genres top twenty. |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 04:34
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Vangelis prog related? C'mon guys. Who declined prog electronic and exactly why?
mailto:M@X" rel="nofollow - M@X vetoed Vangelis from any prog caregory? What is that?
Rename the Site maybe - to Prog as defined by the selected few?
Maybe I'm treading dangerous ground here but oooh my!
Most of the reasonings given for rejecting certain artists are understandable and fully accepted.
Some reasonings however are kind of earth shatteringly strange.
KK - there it is lets all exclude Vangelis bcos he is not prog in the slightest, let's stick in Metallica, lets exclude Stratovarius and while we're at it include Budgie and oh ya - The Rolling Stones, well good inclusion.
Maybe let's kick Yes out and yeah ELP were a bit of a joke. Oooooh we'll stick in David Bowie.
CMON GUYS
------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 05:20
Well there's the anwer - I showed my son and his fellow band members this and I quote from him -
he he he haw haw ha ha ha ha hahahahahahaha WHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ooooooooooooooooooh WHAHAHAHAHAHOOOOOOOOHOHOHOHAHAHA hahahahahahahahahahahaWHAAAHAHAAAAAHAHAHA
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo HAHAHAHAHA
HAHA heh heh hehhehehehehehehe HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA Oh Boy HAAAAAAAAAAHA
HAAAAAAAHAHAHA ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 05:25
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The problem is our feudal system. We have jealous guardians of the genres. Some more than others. Some guardians are very powerful and influential. If they decide some artist does not belong, then it has to be shunted and fit somewhere else. If know one wants it, but it is an obvious inclusion for the site, then PR becomes the dumping ground. It's the system. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 05:38
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Something tells me that some of those guardians don't exactly have much of a clue about the music they profess to love so much. I'll probably be banned after the previous two posts that I did and this one but that seems to be the way here in PA now - disagree at your peril with some and don't argue with the system. This has become about the few who control the site and not about the music - that's really kind of sad.
When some moron tries to tell me that Vangelis aint prog then that's kind of me finished listening to him because to me he has become a joke. The same applied to Stratovarius but on a lesser scale to me.
Well Mr Controllers you go listen to Yellow Submarine some more and discuss the finery of the musical structure therein and I will retire to Chariots of Fire in my lounge while I relax with a glass of wine.
------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 05:44
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Don't exaggerate. I can understand why he was rejected for electronic.
But I can't understand if that rejection automatically disqualifies him
for another genre where his diverse discography fits much better
(eclectic). |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 05:57
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If you read back you will see quite clearly that I'm not exaggerating. It is quite apparant that Vangelis is not considerable for any category here because mailto:M@X" rel="nofollow - M@X said so and Ricochet kinda defends that stance. Neither said - ok guys lets look at this.
Vangelis plays most of his music from an electronic keyboard base and I would, personally, lump him quite easily in with Jarre and Schultze. I don't really care where he is placed but not to be placed here or to be placed in Prog related shows a bias which is not related to the music itself. It shows that the people who evaluated him did so on a basis which did not come from his music - or (horror of horrors) they did not listen to his complete works during the evaluation process.
I went through the same thing precisely when I nominated Stratovarius for PA and that - believe me - was a painful exercise. I decided then that personally I will never nominate a band again here because of the nonsensical arguments and general pain that were thrown my way over that.
------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 06:04
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^Jarre is in prog Related too, so Vangelis is "lumped" with him. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 06:10
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Jarre prog related? ooooooooooooh Whahahahahahaha HAHAHA haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa hahahahayhahahahahaha
Anybody really listened to Jarre? Who put him there and why was he not included under prog electronic?
Sure Rendezvous was a prog related album WHAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA as was Oxygene HAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAHAHA
Magum (one of my all time favorite bands by the way) is prog HEEEEEEEEheheheheheheheheHAHAHAhahahahaHAWHAWHAWhahahahahahaha
and so is Kamelot hhhhhhhhhhhaaahhhhhhhhaaaahhhhhhaaaHAHAHAHA
and Jarre is Prog related? and Vangelis will not be getting a spot here HHHHHHHHHAAAAHAHAHAAAAHAHA
Really guys -
 maybe that helps a bit.Did you SITE MANAGEMENT - happen to take note of the poll results above or don't you really care - because if you don't care about the ppl here and you do care about your own judgement on things well then I don't care if you do ban me because this then will not be the PA i knew and loved a while back. Just do me a favor then and rename the site - mailto:M@X" rel="nofollow - M@X and Co's view of music - or something like that. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 06:35
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So Vangelis, Synergy, and Jarre, merely related. Might as well throw in Kate Bush as well. Maybe if Judas Priest get related status we can have these artists moved to their rightful places. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 06:37
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I was not really defending any stance at all. --- And seeing that I now posted for a second time here, to Logan: I only meant the issue of pushing him back to Prog Electronic, not that of considering other genres (Eclectic, Crossover). -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 07:10
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 07:59
It must be what normal psychopaths do. |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 08:00
Great entertainment this morning....thanks all ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 09:29
| Dave, chill out please. |
Posted By: jean-marie
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:03
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Vangelis has always been Electronic....from the beguining, using his selfmade organ and a lot of effects......Just listen to : Creation du monde from l'apocalypse des animaux,a long track with only the Hammond, a clavinet and a few cymbals, IMHO it's realy Prog, Symphonic, and electronic....Vangelis did so many different things, i understand it's a problem to label him...Whatever he's realy prog, no doubt
------------- FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:03
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I don't believe M@X ever vetoed Vangelis, that's not his style, he always respected our opinion as team members and encouraged our work. Now VANGELIS IS NOT ELECTRONIC EXCLUSIVELY, there I agree with Phillipe: He has Symphonic, Electronic, Eclectic, Jazzy, Pomp rock, New Age releases. And even a couple that sound very close to mainstream. Yesterday I thought in Eclectic, but re-listening the albums, I believe Crossover is more suitable due to the mainstream and New Age components (New Age is not Prog just in case). But that's for the teams to decide, I can only suggest respectfully. Iván. BTW: Dave, a bit of respect for M@X, if it wasn't for him and Ronnie, we wouldn't be enjoying this site.
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:08
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It's nice for me to agree wholeheartedly with Ivan, on all counts - I would say Crossover for Vangelis without hesitation, and also, don't diss the men! ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:17
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(people may want to make a note of this date).
I agree with Steve agreeing with Ivan. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:25
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Crossover looks more correct when I check who else is in there, but Eclectic sounds more correct. It doesn't really matter to me. He just deserves to be acknowledged as the progressive artist he is. |
Posted By: jean-marie
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:26
  ------------- FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:28
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I appreciate mailto:M@X" rel="nofollow - M@X fully and all that he's done here for us people who love Prog music.
I do get a little unhappy when the views of the many here seem to me to be discarded and relating to music I am very passionate. There should really be no questions relating to Vangelis and he should have been represented here a long time ago but obviously that hasn't been the thinking of some. I have always been anti a minority dictating to a majority when it is clear that the majority isn't wrong.
I severely question where Jarre has been placed here and why that is just as my eyebrows raise higher each time I see an addition that, to me, doesn't make sense, where I pleaded the case of Stratovarius even to be placed under prog related if possible so that prog lovers can be exposed to their music through this Site which I admittedly do love and spend a lot of time with.
Everyones views are different and that is what makes the world an interesting place but the sky is generally blue and the night is dark - some things are pretty much obvious irrelevantly of views.
What mailto:M@X" rel="nofollow - M@X has done is put an absolutely brilliant tool together here and a place where us real music lovers can enjoy and for that I am very thankful as we all should be. I hope that that doesn't somehow become jaded by autocracy and change.
To change the subject I am really looking forward to the new Arena album
 . Maybe that will lighten things up a bit.------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:35
------------- What? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:35
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I thought of Crossover first because of his more mainstream works, but at the same time, for his most applicable to PA period of music and works (say in the 70s), I think Eclectic describes his musical approach better. Crossover is commonly very eclectic itself. Genesis could be in Crossover if one considers the greater discography. I'm fine with either Crossover or Eclectic, though, as I think I have said. For the team that evaluates, I do hope they focus most on his 70s albums, and not so much on his later commericial soundtrack/ New Age material. I have wondered if he is in Prog Related because the focus was on his really mainstream albums. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:51
This is truly momentous.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:57
And there was me only going to have two cans of SA tonight....... More booze, and  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 14:02
The problem with this is historical (hysterical) and one of the reasons why I question any band move into Prog Related from a Tru-Prog subgenre: Vangelis was originally added to Prog Electronic in 2005 - two years later (erm, in 2007) this was deemed to be a mistake and he was kicked-out by the Prog Electronic team and he landed in Prog Related for want of a more fitting home. At that time Eclectic and Crossover did not exist and the old Art Rock was clearly not the right place - it really was a case of "if not Prog Electronic then where else could he go?" ... Now we sit beating our brows because everyone sees him in PR and assumes that he should be in Prog Electronic (except his music isn't Electronic Prog - he just happens to use a keyboard as his main instrument, just like Jarre - all keyboard Prog isn't necessarily prog Electronic just as all Prog with keys isn't necessarily Symphonic). I support Xover because there is precident (Stephen Caudel, Chris Neal etc). ------------- What? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 14:16
When I hear Vangelis I hear Electronic Prog. Ok..I haven't heard all his albums and maybe if I don't know why maybe I don't understand what Electronic Prog is. Same with Jarre. I hear electronic. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 14:31
------------- What? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 14:37
I just read that mangled sentence I made . I hope you understood what I was attempting to say.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 14:44
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But be careful, I hear they're dragons. It's funny to think that my two favourite albums of his, Hypothesis and the Dragon were from jam sessions of his with a group of musicians that he hadn't wanted released. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 15:01
| Thanks Greg for posting all those videos, I've learned because of them many things about Vangelis that I didn't know. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 15:44
I remember that precise day, Philippe kicked out Vangelis and rejected Jarre the same day. I even thought in adding Vangelis due to Heaven & Hell, but it was too forced and there was no place for him in any genre (As Dean said with no Eclectic or Xover, it was hard to place him).. And I agree with Philippe in both cases, I said everything about Vangelis, but in the case of Jarre I prefer Prog Related, because his work is a combination of Pomp Rock and Ambient, he's much better in arrangements than in composition. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 19:03
The effort is better spent reviewing the albums rather than fretting over the categorizations. I think jazzmusicarchives has a better organization. "Related" isn't a second class citizen category and not having to put one artist in a single category are improvements. I only have to guess that transitioning PA over to something like that now would be a monumental undertaking. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 15:30
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I have many Vangelis albums. These are most certainly 'progressive electronic':
Heaven and Hell
Albedo 0.39
Spiral
Beauborg
Invisible Connections
Direct
beyond that little lot I'm not convinced anything else is 'progressive ,most of it being a mixture of OST's ,quasi classical works and 'new age' stuff.
Much of Vangelis work is just Vangelis being Vangelis. Not sure if he even really cares about being 'progressive' anymore and probably hasn't been in any way 'progressive' since about 1990.
His very early albums like Earth, Hypothesis and The Dragon are quite experimental but don't actually feature synthesisers to the best of my knowledge so could they really be classed as 'progressive electronic'?
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Posted By: jean-marie
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 16:00
 ------------- FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 18:02
He's a self taught musician in a house of musicians. And if we can add a non-joke here, may I suggest that you stop listening for the OST's and other definitions and start listening for the spoons. AND, that is a no kidding and from his own mouth! They are in EVERY one of his compositions, regardless of what it is!
He was one of the very first to talk about the selling out of music, way back in 1975 and 1976 and his comments about "commercial music" still are quite vivid in my mind, and probably are the very foundtation of the work I write and state in this board, for example, which some folks do not like.
All in all, he doesn't need to be considered "prog" ... like Mike, or Ryuichi and others ... he's a COMPOSER and he deserves that right for the amount of work he has done, including an Oscar. And it doesn't matter to me if we think it is "prog" or not ... once again ... it's MUSIC. And that's more important than "prog" will ever be. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 04:15
anyway the thread was asking whether Vangelis was 'progressive' and I tried to answer it. I own a load of Vangelis albums which I enjoy regardless of what category they are pigeon holed into. My favourite is probably El Greco (just so beautifull) but if I want to get my rocks off then I put on Heaven and Hell as loud as my ears can stand it. I enjoy his body of work which is varied and interesting. Is that okay with you?
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 04:42
This ia a prog music site in case you hadn't noticed. We just can't put him anywhere. There is no genre here called "music". Where would you suggest he goes? Add something to the debate at hand for a change. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 05:25
^ There is nothing worse than a self employed building inspector booking a room in a construction he considers we're lucky still to be alive in to alert us of this fact  ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 09:38
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 09:46
^  ... I thought I'd read somewhere that he had studied music at academic level. I also believe that other musicians spoke out about commercial music long before 1975 - the phrase "sell-out" being a popular term of derision in Prog circles for many years.------------- What? |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 09:47
brilliant
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 10:05
Exactly, and most of the ones who protested against selling out, ended making commercial music for different reasons, mainly because they required money to survive. A good example is Rick Wakeman, a prolific Prog musician who found at the age of 25, after a heart attack, he had made a terrible business with a label (A&M) and that his family was not protected in case he died. A few years later, he made music he could sell easily, but when he got enough money, he returned to his beloved genre. Peter Gabriel almost fell in bankruptcy due to the artistic acclaimed WOMAD, and he made a couple of simpler albums (Still all very good) to get back on his feet, then he returned to his roots Life is not easy, but Prog Archives has a duty to support PRIMARILY artists who devoted themselves to Prog, of course not forgetting artists who made a Prog - Commercial career if they fit in a sub-genre, if they don't fit in one, Prog Related is their place. Of course I believe guys like Vangelis, Wakeman and Gabriel have a place in a full genre (each one in a different one), due to what they did in their Prog facets. Iván -------------
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 11:51
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When he got his offer from Anderson the interest in him from members of YES as a whole ...I bet had to do more with his original style. His was electronic, played grand piano so greatly it could give you the chills. He was Classical and Jazz combined. Wakeman's music crossed over into Electronic music.. Moraz, Wakeman, and Vangelis were very diverse as players. I still can't get this out of my head....if Vangelis had played on Relayer or Topographic imagine the change in chord structures and what he would have done with the ambient sections during Anderson's vocals. He has an interesting catalog.
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 12:56
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^ We must leave Relayer well alone....Moraz was just perfect ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 13:42
More ambient sections in the vein of Short Stories,.would had ruined Relayer, one of the few Yes masterpieces. Iván -------------
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: November 15 2011 at 16:43
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Vangelis is awesome. Prog? Certainly. That's where my vote went. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 15 2011 at 16:47
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I went with the prog option as well. The guy has made a lot of different albums with all kinds of influences. In fact I just reviewed his Krautrock album The Dragon. My personal fave from him, although it is a far cry from the rest of his output.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 16:54
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The very first albums were avant-jazz, then he went to symphonic prog, then progressive electronic with excursions in newage and avantgarde/contemporary classics (beaubourg and invisible connections). Why is he considered "related"? for his works with Jon Anderson? In that case please note that "Jon and Vangelis" is a different entity on PA. Well, I have found this thread six months after the last post, but Vangelis is still prog-related so.... ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 02 2012 at 01:58
btw which albums are symphonic prog? Perhaps you were thinking Heaven and Hell?
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: May 02 2012 at 04:11
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Of course, I think Heaven and Hell is Symphonic, but also the suite on Chariots of Fire comes in mind. But with the English Chamber Choir and the soprano Vana Veroutis we could look for Zeuhl ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 02 2012 at 14:51
Absolutely. Going by a recent interview that Vangelis gave he has composed a lot of symphonic music that hasn't been released sadly. The record companies only want the electronic stuff. The Chariots of Fire suite is excellent and maybe a little overlooked.
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