Is prog kitsch?
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Topic: Is prog kitsch?
Posted By: ignatiusrielly
Subject: Is prog kitsch?
Date Posted: September 12 2011 at 20:05
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Just wondering if prog rock could be considered kitsch. I have nothing against kitsch, anyway
------------- Four pails of water and a bagfull of salts |
Replies:
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: September 12 2011 at 20:07
| A lot of it is, yes, but I don't think prog in itself was kitsch. Retro-prog is kitsch in itself, though. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 12 2011 at 20:36
'Kitsch' has morphed somewhat; it seems to mean at once tacky/low-quality, sentimental, and ostentatious. But those are all completely different things.  |
Posted By: AutumnWanderer
Date Posted: September 12 2011 at 20:51
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Well, there was an Australian band in the mid 1970s called Kush which had a little bit of a progressive tendency (their guitarist David Herzog cites Steve Howe as an influence).
Their first album was called "Snow White And The Eight Straights", named after a description that Australian music afficionado Molly Meldrum gave them:  Their second album is called "Nah, Tellus Wh't Kush Means Yer Great Sausage".  The big single off this was "I'm Your Football" whose opening lines are:
"I'm your football, kick me I'm your icecream, lick me I'm your beauty queen, look at me I think I'm speeding, you can book me" And it goes on like that... Geoff Duff, the leader singer, was also going to do a concept album about two rival nations of sausages. He did all the cover art and the story, but it got lost in the mail on the way to the record label, so the record never got made. There's one song from it that exists on the Aztec Records CD re-issue of "Nah, Tellus Wh't Kush Means Yer Great Sausage" All these elements make me consider this title a little kitsch, but overall I don't think progressive music is that kitsch. I'd rather enjoy it than laugh at it. Laugh with it if they're being playful and funny, and Kush for instance often are, while still understanding their sensibilities and the personalities in the band. I don't think it's something I'd ever roll my eyes at or anything. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: September 12 2011 at 21:03
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When your appreciation of it is ironic, then yes.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: feloniousgroove
Date Posted: September 12 2011 at 21:24
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After looking up "kitsch", I would have to say that some of the people that I know that like prog have been pseudo-intellects and more pretentious than the music is. There is a lot of talent and musicianship in prog that you don't get anywhere else. |
Posted By: AutumnWanderer
Date Posted: September 12 2011 at 23:35
What's the difference between a psuedo-intellect and an intellect? I hope that's not too off topic, just trying to understand.
I agree, with all the ideas and talent in progressive music, it is hard for me think of it overall as kitsch. |
feloniousgroove wrote:Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: September 12 2011 at 23:45
Pseudo-intellectual=someone who you think is stupid because they disagree with you. I can't answer the question because I do not have a firm grasp of what kitsch means. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 03:44
| Kitsch is far too nebulous a term to be applied to anything more complex than a table lamp, IMO. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 04:10
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If Prog could be considered an inferior imitation of something it clearly borrows from then possibly, but given the sheer broad scope of differing influences from all the bands that are considered Prog, nah. ------------- 
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Posted By: martinprog77
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 04:19
prog rock could be considered kitsch ? no .................................unless you are talking about ELP  ------------- Nothing can last there are no second chances. Never give a day away. Always live for today. |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 04:55
| Rick Wakeman performing THE SIX WIVES live INSIDE Hampton Court Palace, wearing a glitter cape & accompanied by full choir and orchestra - most people would call that Kitsch, but Rick simply calls it "fun". I bought the DVD and I certainly enjoy most of it! |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 05:23
Yes it is fun to watch a little bit of kitschiness in prog. I had the same feeling watching the opera She (Caamora). When you see singers and musicians dressed up and playing music with a serious passion for their art. it's kind of funny and enteirtaining at the same time. I got the same feeling listening Neal Morse playing great music and almost crying at the same time with the effects of all the personal meaning of his lyrics. It doesn't have a clear relation with the term of Kitsch, because this has a subjective meaning. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 05:43
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To a certain point I guess you could call The Residents intentionally kitschy, but that´s mostly down to the tunes - not their outfits or strange personas. Third Reich n Roll along with the Commercial Album - I personally find to be pretty kitsch, but in a funny and purposeful way mind you. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Theriver
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 06:03
| Too often to my taste..... |
Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 06:22
That sums up exactly what I was going to say. ------------- http://hanashukketsu.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Hanashukketsu |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 10:04
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I think Kitsch is a completely subjective term. Also there's the question to how you react when you hear kitsch. My friend has often cited that "kitsch is good at times"- I tend to disagree. But again it's entirely subjective. Is there kitsch in prog? In my eyes yes, much of it is flowing with kitsch. For me it's doing something to pompous or bombastic, covering some baroque piece on a Hammond, singing about Lord Of The f**king Rings or some other fantasy book. It's still all subjective. ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: wilmon91
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 10:29
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My view of kitsch is something cheap, colorful, simple, mass-produced, conspicuous, undemanding with entertaining qualities, and a product of it's time, like fashion. So it's not a product of timeless values. Something that gets dated quickly but may gain a nostalgic value with time.
If that's right (and I can be wrong), nothing could be stranger than to call prog kitsch! Can music be kitsch? ------------- http://www.lastfm.se/user/wilmon91" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 11:12
No, but I think it may be chatski. 
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: notesworth
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 12:37
I agree that prog isn't kitsch. But some music can be kitsch. Example: My standard for kitsch is the Dogs Playing Poker paintings. If any music reminds you of those, it's probably kitsch. I don't think about kitsch much anyway. Except when I see Dogs Playing Poker.  |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 13:04
 Look a little familiar? ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 14:22
My guess why Peter Gabriel have never seen the prog tribute band Musical Box, or don't like bands playing tribute to the old genesis has maybe something to do with Kitsch. He doesn't like to see how he was in costume in the 70's, he doesn't like nostalgia. |
Posted By: notesworth
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 14:55
I don't see a comparison. The dogs in the second pic act like dogs. I can think of goofier prog album covers, but they're not what I'd call "kitsch". I rarely pay attention to album art anyway.
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Posted By: wilmon91
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 15:21
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Kitschy music.... maybe Billy Idols christmas album ?
Or Steve Lukathers christmas album
 ------------- http://www.lastfm.se/user/wilmon91" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 15:39
By the contrary, the definition of Kitsc implies:
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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 16:20
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one of Norways greatest painters Odd Nærderum is declairing himself kitsch and i would not say that his art is low quality, not apealing to the majoraty (his art is very vulgar), and if it is one thing Odd Nærderum doo care about it's quality also Edvard Munch can be in some circuts be called kitch couse he manicly created dusins of copys and versions of his own art and paintings, their are atleast over 12 different versions of Scream (but only the original is worth 45 million $) -------------  
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Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 16:24
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It only takes educated and occidental individuals to post a subject of that nature. It's a value judgment to make fun of something and to boost our ego and in this case make fun of prog... |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 17:18
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from wikipedia on Nerderums useage of the term kitsch Odd Nerdrum (born April 8, 1944 in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsingborg" rel="nofollow - Helsingborg , Sweden), is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway" rel="nofollow - Norwegian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figurative" rel="nofollow - figurative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painting" rel="nofollow - painter . Themes and style in Nerdrum's work reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdote" rel="nofollow - anecdote and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrative" rel="nofollow - narrative , while primary influences by the painters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rembrandt" rel="nofollow - Rembrandt and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravaggio" rel="nofollow - Caravaggio place his work in direct conflict with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_art" rel="nofollow - abstraction and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_art" rel="nofollow - conceptual art considered acceptable in much of his native Norway, and in opposition to the art of the time. Nerdrum creates six to eight paintings per year. These include http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Still_life" rel="nofollow - Still life paintings of small everyday objects like bricks, portraits and self portraits whose subjects are dressed as if from some other time and place, and large paintings, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory" rel="nofollow - allegorical in nature that present a sense of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptic" rel="nofollow - apocalyptic and again reference another time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odd_Nerdrum#cite_note-0" rel="nofollow - [1] Nerdrum says that his art should be understood as kitsch rather than art as such. "On Kitsch", a manifesto composed by Nerdrum describes the distinction he makes between kitsch and art.On kitschOdd Nerdrum has declared himself to be a kitsch-painter identifying himself with kitsch rather than with the contemporary art world. Initially, Nerdrum's declaration was thought to be a joke but later, and with the publication of articles and books on the subject, Nerdrum's position can be seen as an implied criticism of contemporary art. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odd_Nerdrum#cite_note-8" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odd_Nerdrum#cite_note-1" rel="nofollow --------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 01:13
I just went to the dictionary
or
I believe this doesn't represent Prog or Munch's work, making different versions of his own work is something very common in artists, for example Lucas Cranach repeated his paintings and was anything but kitsch, as a fact all his versions of a same figure are worth millions. BTW: Some artists will say anything that gives them more press. Iván -------------
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Posted By: friso
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 03:20
| A lot of bands that seem to function on the border of copying and 'being inspired by' could be considered kitsch, but it won't be the kind of information that makes my day. |
Posted By: AutumnWanderer
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 05:53
Mass produced, eh? It does um... bring to mind that cascading range of discount priced compilations of bands including Yes and Deep Purple, you know, that half feature live tracks and not so well known album tracks, sometimes even songs from solo projects of band members, but the packaging, though lovable, is not of such a lavish quality as one of a higher price.
 Like this. But I would think it would be mean to call these compilations kitsch. I have a lot of respect for discount priced CDs. |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 06:02
I think this just shows the limitations of dictionaries. Neither of those give a full account of the many ways in which people may and often do employ the term "kitsch". It's a t**ser's word at any rate. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 06:19
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It's clearly a very difficult word to define as it denotes so many different things to different people (but you can't blame dictionaries for people saying 'bad/wicked/sick' when they mean 'good' now can yer?) Using an example someone has already mentioned, Edvard Munch reproduction 'The Scream' dinner place mats would have to be considered 'kitsch'  in any culture but don't ask me to qualify why (but it may have something to do with the discrepancy between function and design...or summat innit?-------------
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Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 07:14
Oh, I'm not blaming dictionaries for failing to keep up with the evolution of language as that's inevitable. I'm merely suggesting that we should be aware of it and not rely solely on dictionary definitions to support our arguments. During my short spell as a trainee teacher every other essay I received seemed to start with "The Oxford English dictionary defines [word pertaining to essay topic] as...", or worse still "www.thefreedictionary.com defines, etc.". Dictionaries are marvellous things, of course, but woe betide us if we start using them as an alternative to thinking. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 07:23
^ Ok fair point (I clearly misinterpreted your post)
 but for me everyday language is evolving by regressing like ya dig bro innit?-------------
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Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 09:00
Not wishing to utterly derail this thread, but as a bit of a word geek I just can't let this lie. People would have said exactly the same of the state of language ten, twenty, two hundred years ago. The idea of language regressing relies on the assumption that there is some fixed point of lingual perfection from which we are slowly declining. So when was that? 1962? 1886? At what point did our language become something to be protected from further erosion? As I see it, there will always be slang, there will always be formal language and there will always be dozens of subtle levels in between, and all of it is in a constant state of change, just as our society is. People decried the emergence of so-called "txtspk", for example, but as far as I can tell its use has so far been largely limited to texts, social networking sites and desperate advertising campaigns. Let language evolve, I say! Especially slang, as that's where all our best words come from. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 09:19
While I agree with you that it is meaningless to say the language is degrading, thereby placing a value judgment on today's slang viz a viz yesterday's slang, there is a general tendency for language to become more regular with time, which I think destroys a lot of its characteristic charm. One of my pet peeves is the disappearance of many irregular past tense forms. Example: the past tense of "to dream" used to be "dreamt" but now it is usually "dreamed." Likewise "leapt" has been mostly replaced by "leaped."This is happening all throughout English and I think it's a shame. ------------- 
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Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 09:33
Yeah, I can't argue with that. Still, the one crumb of comfort with that is we, as individuals, still have the power to resist anything we see as unnecessary change. I still use dreamt and leapt in my writing because the alternatives just look wrong to me. Likewise, I steadfastly refuse to adopt the American "-ization" of -ise words, however often spellcheckers attempt to force it upon me in the name of "standardization" (or "standardisation", as I'd prefer). |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 09:40
I'm an American, but a bit of an Anglophile, so I tend to insert British spellings into my writing such as colour and glamour. The alternative just looks so crude. -------------
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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: September 15 2011 at 10:42
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Prog? Kitsch? Only after it's main period of originality, just like any other genre of music. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:00
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^ Mmm...isn't there a possibility that one man's kitsch is another man's knowingly derivative?
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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:10
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Yes. What is The Court of the Crimson King derivative of though? ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:21
For me the perfect example of kitsch is this:  A 20 bucks plaque copy of the last supper hanging in your dinning room (As most Peruvians had thinking it was a work of art). Or having this 24 bucks framed Mona Lisa poster hanging on your living room  But even the most derivative song of any genre, can't be kitsch, because even the simplest one has something original the author added. Iván -------------
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:21
They use 4/4 time and a guitar. That's totally been done before. -------------
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Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:23
I don't know the specifics, and I'm not as well acquainted with everything on that album as I probably ought to be, but I think I'm right in saying it's an album which emerged broadly out of psychedelic rock, with a good sprinkling of jazz. It's innovative, for sure, but it's not an album totally without precedent. Nothing is created in a vacuum. |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:29
Well, of course you're right, but by that argument, everything is kitsch! As for the 4/4.... it's a perfectly good time signature that's almost essential to music, original or otherwise. To condemn that would be a bit like calling any art kitsch if it uses paint. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:30
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I agree. Kitsch requires a widely recognisable reference point (cliché) that is used so far outside its context to be considered risible. As you say, ITCOTCK (and the Prog pioneers) can only be viewed in the light of kitsch if their original innovations are transposed into another completely inappropriate medium (like an album cover reproduced on bathroom towels) Excuse me now as I've just got to phone the patents office.... -------------
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:36
That was kind of my point. I was making a joke.  -------------
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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:37
Jokes are so kitsch...... ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: AutumnWanderer
Date Posted: September 15 2011 at 17:42
Imagine a Going For The One bathtowel! |
Posted By: jean-marie
Date Posted: September 16 2011 at 04:20
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Listening back to some Heep old stuff....Yes it can be... ------------- FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT |
Posted By: yasko
Date Posted: September 20 2011 at 07:57
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Hi there! pretty difficult question,
in mine opinion there is in every art form a kind of kitsh (wich mostly appear after the making of a big artwork)
pop art and especially the works of jeff koons have a very "kitsch" tendency,
 to hear kitsch in music is very different, maybe the thousands of genesis clones can be called kitsch?...
another really kitsch kind of music is "muzak" in hotels, malls, trainstations. clasical melodies on cheezy organs and weak drums... you recognize the music but it is striped away from al its artistic power...
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Posted By: Turillazzo
Date Posted: September 21 2011 at 14:11
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I always thought kitsch was a word to define hironic imitations of pop. If so, hell yeah, Residents are pretty kitsch! |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: September 22 2011 at 01:56
| You guys realize that some questions really are just insanely stupid and don't warrant a 3 page thread, right? |
Posted By: AutumnWanderer
Date Posted: September 22 2011 at 03:32
I'm sure more has been written and discussed about sillier. 
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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: September 22 2011 at 03:53
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i prefear things made in a kitschen to manmade kitsch supposed art -------------
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Posted By: Big Ears
Date Posted: September 22 2011 at 06:22
| The closest to kitsch that progressive rock musicians get is probably on their Christmas albums. |
Posted By: 40footwolf
Date Posted: September 22 2011 at 21:35
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Oh God yes, of course it is. But like you said, that doesn't mean it's bad. Bruce Lee movies can be considered "kitsch" as well but that doesn't stop them from being some of the most well-crafted action films of all time. ------------- Heaven's made a cesspool of us all. |