Reforming the PA database in democratic manner
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=76896
Printed Date: February 24 2025 at 13:51
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Reforming the PA database in democratic manner
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Subject: Reforming the PA database in democratic manner
Date Posted: March 20 2011 at 19:55
These couple of days are very agitating for me, an infernal Japanese disaster included.  Sigh ... putting myself together.  First of all, thanks to mates who have discussed with me.  I'm much concerned with the past, the present, and the future of Progarchives ... the way of artist evaluation and inclusion, the bulky database currently expanding day after day (including some "problematic" inclusion cases in the distant past PA foundered with confusing), and democratic manner in future.  And one of the most concerning issues is the database - as-it-is-said the holy ground, currently where nobody can reform or improve "drastically", some discussable issues or material existed though.  Well, please let me propose, that we should discuss this massive database together, for absolute & ultimate improvement. That is, to reevaluate, reform, revise, readjust the database ... for shaping more ultimate (the most ultimate,if possible) one.  Each subgenre (including Proto, Prog-Related) may have some unknown, unconvincing, tough cases I guess, and we all Collaborators and members can discuss, reconsider, and in some cases remove the cases or data ... in accordance with our sincere and serious opinion and certain democratic manner.  Thoughts? 
------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow"> 
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Replies:
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: March 20 2011 at 20:41
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There are a few cases where apparently nobody thinks they should be there, and those should go, killing reviews doesn't really matter. PM a copy to them, they can post it on Amazon or something. Or transfer them to MMA, since the ones I am talking about are all metal anyway. Otherwise, I'm not really sure what reforming the PA database in a democratic manner actually means. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: March 20 2011 at 20:45
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Deleting artists isn't a good idea. I don't find any artists included here to be terribly objectionable, and deleting them will also delete many reviews.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 20 2011 at 20:55
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I, too, would rather not see any acts removed. What i would like, however, is to see PR and PP organised into subsections, but that entails a lot of work. Another change I'd like to see is optional album tagging and ability to search albums by tags. |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: March 20 2011 at 21:10
| I, for one, would love to expel modern hacks from this progressive site. Keep progress alive by keeping thieves out of PA! |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: March 20 2011 at 21:29
lol |
WalterDigsTunes wrote:Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 20 2011 at 22:55
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it sounds like what Damo is suggesting is a 'cleanup' ; a reexamination of certain bands added long ago or without procedure that may not belong either in that particular subgenre, in which case the artist(s) could be moved with the approval of said genre teams, or removed altogether with the approval of M@X et al. Several teams have accomplished this in the past, but it is easier said than done. Firstly, policy is that no bands once added will be removed except under unusual circumstances, and only by M@X as far as I know. Second, though a genreteam may be open to accepting a certain artist, no team will want to be expected to "play ball" and take an act they didn't add or don't really want. Third, it is a project that would need coordination with all involved, and in theory, is a huge job. Just my tuppence. |
Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 00:34
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In before Walter tries to nuke everything mod... er?
Wait...
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 03:45
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I would strongly resist the removal of any artist from the database. Our collaborators put a lot of work in assessing additions, and our reviewers spend a lot of time preparing reviews. To subsequently remove a band or artist would be disrepectful to those who had previosuly made the efffort for this site.
By all means review the additions process though.
(Perhaps we could remove Walter instead!
 ) |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 05:24
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About deletion cases, I remember there has been more like genre movings of some artists with collaboration of teams & admins (like from some prog genre to related etc.), but not much deletions, which would require these mentioned heavy arguments.
About problematic inclusion cases, with this I believe is meant suggestions not moving anywhere, and inclusion rejections or additions causing controversial reactions etc.
I have decided to try think, that if some cases are not reacted, accepted or so, then this community is not open to these artists, and the loss is a loss for this community, not me.
Not very constructive solution possibly, but relieves the personal sensation of frustration.
From the inclusions and the reforms of discussable issues, hopefully there would be commitment for concrete discussions with relevant people at proper place, in order to handle these matters causing the pain - Either leading to some resolutions, or then confirmation to the troubled of how issues are decided to be conducted here. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 05:30
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If we're going to put your ideas to a vote, I'd vote no. I am strictly against removing things just because a lot of people may not approve. Even the controversial artists aren't added without evaluation and careful consideration. I think we draw a pretty good line, but almost no one's going to agree on it's boundaries.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 06:27
You got my vote |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 06:34
Just wanted to add, however, that when this site was in its infancy there were no genre teams and no "eval" procedure as we know it today - I believe one could find some artists added during this time that most might agree don't belong. That said, there is probably such a small number of these cases it's probably not worth the time and energy rooting them out and removing them. |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 06:39
100 % agree. (but let's keep Walter; the old senile cat sitting on his soft pillowed chair in the corner. This cat is harmless with no bite and no claws) |
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 08:01
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Please wait all mates, quite a few members posting here may be very nervous about removal of artists I've felt ... mentioned only that we "can" reform etc ... and "in some cases" remove ... yes, I've said let me propose we can remove in some cases in accordance with our sincere and serious opinion and certain democratic manner. And also let me say that I do believe no Collaborator has an intention to entrap or bug PA or other Collaborators ...only what I've emphasized is to avoid permitting any dictatorship or bulldozing in PA. Anyway ... Bob (Easy Livin), I'm always appreciating your sincere efforts with your serious and strict attitude for PA, and let me ask you as one of the longest Admins in PA, please; I've found there are "vacant" seats (artist ID numbers) in PA, and some of them have been obviously deleted already (realized via old threads like http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9970" rel="nofollow - this ... ID1851 is a "vacant" seat already vaporized) ... what does this mean?
We subgenre teams maybe have tried to show the process in the artist's thread of "Suggest ... " Forum if possible (sometimes lazy as honestly I say  ), but should we try harder to do so?
------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 08:12
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When we cleaned up Symphonic, there were a couple we found that were highly questionable. I think we did end up getting one deleted because it was obviously a mistake. There was no doubt because the original addition was based on inaccurate information about the artist. Unless it's a similar situation, I don't think deletion is a good idea. Yeah, there are artists here I don't think belong, but somebody did. I think the answer is just be opened minded and objective about submissions in the future. This applies to both sides of the discussion. Try to see it from the other person's perspective and have a civil discourse. Then put it to a vote and accept the outcome respectfully. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 08:12
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Democracy sucks ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 08:28
I cannot think of a single artist I would want to see removed. However, I can think of several that I think should be in Prog Related instead because they do not have any fully prog albums (and I'm not the one who said that). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 08:36
I understand this, but this is not a defense of anything. If you peek into the Libertarian thread for a minute, you will see that we criticize the government despite all that effort that goes into maintaining it. In other words, suppose the Eclectic team added Lady Gaga. Could we simply dispel the controversy that would be raised on this site by saying, "Yeah, but we worked very hard to add and review this artist!"  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 09:08
If he keeps scent-marking his territory he will have to be neutered. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 11:10
Okay, done a lot of digging and more by luck than any special skills or super powers I have determined that the missing band for ID1851 was Cali≠gari - a visual kei band who sound somewhat poppy to me, even for a v-k band - little wonder they were quickly deleted (as far as I can tell they were gone by September 2005).
The person added both bands the day after he joined the site, (!), and he managed to add Dir En Grey into Various Artists.
 The gaps in the number appeared long before 2005 even, when Dir En Grey were added using ID 1866 the archive had 1726 bands listed.
This can be easily explained without masses of deletions if you look at this page from the wayback machine for Augutst 2005: http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20050811083446/http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_PROGARCHIVES.asp" rel="nofollow - http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20050811083446/http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_PROGARCHIVES.asp
...you will see in the right hand column under NEW ARTISTS/BANDS two entries for FRAKTAL, one on id=1860 and the other on id=1861 ... today #1860 is "vacant" ... clearly the person adding the band added them twice.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 11:48
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Spot on Dean, almost all of the deletions from the bands relate to errors, duplications, live testing etc.
There has been the very rare deletion of an addition other than that (the one which springs to mind are My Dying bride, and I think even they are here again now), but as you say this has been almost immediatly after the addition was made, I don't think we've ever removed a band who were added years or even months previously.
I accept that some bands were added prior to the formation of the genre teams, but these will have been reviewed by the teams since then. In any event, the majority of those were at the behest of the site founders, who originally were the only ones empowered to add bands.
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 12:48
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In a sick and sad way, I am glad my warning that letting all these borderline/questionable/related bands was going to lead to a floodgate.... Maybe some disagree but I think, and know others think, lots of artist do not belong here. Hate to be a tight fist....but I just think the site needs to have some stricter standards. Because looser will just lead to more and more artists being added that do not deserve it. I would not mind seeing some stricter acceptance. Deleting albums is a sticky wicket since people will lose reviews. Instead of deleting, I propose an idea I had a while ago, one implemented on MMA, album by album. One prog (or maybe even proggy album) warrants the bands inclusion in whole?? While MMA style is fine, I always wanted an "album" section that is literally just the prog albums a band has done. I'm not sure what you mean by democratic but we could have a poll for every artist to be added to get the input of everyone. Final vote left to the team of course, but still they could see what we lowly forum members feel at least. Also this could be done to help sort out bands that my only have a few prog albums, or one, out of their discog. A lot of work it would take, but if enough people are serious about music to care, they'll take the time. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 14:00
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I assume you do know that a floodgate is a something that restrains and controls the flow of water... ------------- What? |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 14:13
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Well, it's nice to see such a sensible opening post on this type of subject - thanks Damos  My personal preference would actually be to clean up the sub genres and look at placing albums, rather than artists, there. I know it would take one hell of a lot of work, but I, for one, would be more than happy to put the time in. As for Dean's exceptionally sensible suggestion re neutering Walter, I really could only support this if it was extremely long, painful, and done with sharp instruments clearly patented after 1989 ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 14:14
Thanks bro. I assume you know opening one would cause any water on the outside to pour in and flood? With that out of the way! Just voicing my opinion. I's be a lowly forum member, a plebeian. Of course any change is out of my hands, that would be up to the PA Aristocracy! |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 14:16
I'm sure JJ just omitted the crucial "the opening of" in his use of the idiom.
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 14:23
More like "everyone will know what I mean" But I forgot this is PA! You need to spell everything out or else everyone will call you out on it, even though its obvious what you meant... My posts are long enough already people! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 14:39
------------- What? |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 15:04
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I've been giving this some thoughts as well lately as we have some bands in the Metal department thay may not be as Prog as we might want them to be: Kamelot, Epica, Nightwish, After Forever, Death ( )... The reason being that their existence on PA is inconsistent with the genre boundaries that we try to implement, and could cause people to argue "Hey, if X is here you need to add Y" A few weeks later I don't think it's worth the trouble. First of all there is generally little interest in these bands, resulting in few and rather low ratings. Secondly, their existance here hasn't caused the addition of loads of other bands (Within Temptation, Lacuna Coil or whatever), so the "floodgate" effect is rather minor or even non-existent I'd say. And the mentioning of "Death" above is partly a joke of course, but it's partly also to indicate that some bands may not be Prog to someone (me for instance) but they still might be for many others. So I don't see how a democratic majority could be established for a "deletion". Unanimous by the genre team? Unanimous by all teams? Unanimous by Admins? ... |
Posted By: Chris H
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 19:33
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If we're going to clean up anything, splitting Math Rock and Post Rock should be step number one...but I might be biased. ------------- Beauty will save the world. 
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 19:55
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All of it of course Dean, need to comb the site. Hope you're not getting defensive, this is just a website Death is a good example of a band that really makes no sense, and opens up the chance for other bands that don't belong. I know it'd be a hell of a project but a "Prog Album" makes sense. Bands that have one or two albums can get the recognition they deserve without adding the band and causing a storm. Also I've heard there is only one PMT that covers Prog Metal, Post/Experimental and Tech/Extreme? And prog metal is pretty loaded, maybe make 3 teams instead of having the PMT do all that? Would lighten that load they are always talking about, (especially since they never seem to have enough people) and makes sense. Why have those 3 separate for the site but all done under one team? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 20:37
*shrug* call that being pedantic if you like, but I don't fall for exaggeration, I like to get a clear picture of what the real scale of the problem is before thinking of ways to tackle it. I don't see the logic in mounting a major site overhaul for a handful of bands that we will never get a consensus on. All that will do is create unnecessary tension and argument.
A "prog album" category has been considered and rejected. It may happen in the far future, but it is unlikely to happen in the near future. Our rule is "One Prog Album" and the artist can be added to the database, and that means adding the whole discography. I double-checked the meaning and interpretation of this with M@X on March 4th and he has confirmed that this is his wish.
The MMA is a good test-bed for these kinds of ideas since it is a smaller, younger site managed by a lot fewer people - change is quicker to implement there because of that, which means that mistakes can be rectified quicker too.
The future split of the PMT into three teams is something we have discussed during the reformation of the team earlier in the year. For the time being the team will remain as is, with the three subs being "championed" by individual PMT members under the leadership of Karl. This is the most effective way of managing the existing workload and from the evidence of the past 3 months, is working better than expected. What happens in the future is up to Karl and the PMT with whatever assistance they need from Angelo and myself. ------------- What? |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 20:47
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Yes sire. I should not have spoken, back to my cave It's dark in there |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 20:49
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And now for an off-topic: I always thought Dean's avatar was Tracy Ullman
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 21 2011 at 20:49
------------- What? |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: March 22 2011 at 01:02
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Let the PA " animal" breathe.......a work in progress formed by thousands of individual' hours and dedication. Let it be. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 05:59
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Erm, thanks mates posting here, for throwing opinions and comments to me ... especially Dean and Bob, many appreciated to explain the meaning of "vacant" artist ID seats. Everyone hopes PA can show something of improvement, but almost all cannot accept opportunities of drastic change ... as I've expected previously ... but this result is pretty alright for me, because this thread is not an order nor a persuasion, but my proposal with humble opinions. 
). Anyway, it's a pity here's not come who I would like to ask for these controversial issues.  ------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 06:13
Oh dear. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 06:26
If some of the additions during the "PA infancy stage" , starting in january 2004, (define how long was its "infancy"
) are debatable... it's generally very much obscure ones, so we'd probably not make a difference in that regardBack then (in the "infancy"), there was so much 100% prog acts to add, that no-one actually thought about including non-prog acts...
In late 2005 (Sept to Nov), there was a huge upheaval and the prog-related genre was created precisely to allow a first clean-up and teams were set-up from that moment onwards (and that's where the problems started
 ) , so I'd sat that PA's infancy lasted from Feb 04 until Nov 05.------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 09:12
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I would rather like to see PA database expanded to include certain artists: 1.) Prog-psych-hard rock-jam bands of early 70's ('proto' after 'proto prog' period) 2.) Avant-pop complex artists of new wave/no-wave period 3.) World fusion 4.) Some electronica (IDM in Warp Records style and similar granular textures) 5.) some classical Heavy Metal which borrows from classical prog - multi-part long compositions, bass solos etc. (Helloween, even Manowar, but not Running Wild) 6.) perhaps neo-classical gothic music 7.) prog-related needs EXPANSION (there's a good reason why - I'll elaborate why if anyone insists) By adding these, we would not open the flood gates - a huge mass of ProgArchives will simply relocate its barycenter a bit. ------------- |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 09:39
I do insist you elaborate on 7) as I think I probably may agree with you Even within this thread there is the dogged insistence that some artists are 100% Prog (Not even ELP or Yes are that) ------------- 
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 10:41
There may be more reasons, but this is what I have in mind: It's simple. Let's say we have a popular rock artist/band which is very influential to music scene - even nowadays. If such an artist was somewhat influenced with prog rock, and released let's say one 100% prog album, while remaining artsy-fartsy with some light prog overtones while doing non-prog music, and being also somewhat influential on newer prog bands...well, such an artist is a good candidate for a prog-related category. Nothing new here. But if we think on a local level, there must be artists which were influential on their local scene, only we know nothing about them. There are hundreds of countries in the world - some of them won't have any, some of them might have up to five bands. I know nothing about artists that were influential (and dabbling in prog) in Spain, Mexico, Hungary, Switzerland, Australia etc. Following that reasoning, prog-related might embrace at least 200 or more bands in the future. If you have other ideas in mind, speak up! ------------- |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 10:58
Great post!
Won't hesitate the lure of dropping some comments of the cases you mentioned:
Case 1; I guess they kind of continued the musical style of 1965-1970's, and I would not mind studying interests if these early 70's bands could be verified from prog related scope, being part of the "proto prog" movement, but not leaving completelly those paths, where the most experimental and artistically vivid rock musicians of 1970's did. Musically I believe these should often interest listeners of 60's music.
About types 2-4 and 6, I would be interested to hear more about. I have some records of case type 3 spinning on my players.
Personally not so interested that I could credibly comment 5, but on...
case 7, I agree with you.
I think this is mostly due my personal insight to the vague, dramatic, and difficultly defined concept of term "proggressive rock".
I personally consider many pre-1969 records as full progressive music (the first Floyd records for example). These are most often psychedelic & folk styled records, not "symphonic prog". For me the artistic and impressionistic approach implemented to the tonal expression of rock music, expanding it away from non-expressive commercial rock, this is something assicating with the term discussed.
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Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 17:32
------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 19:02
And the music is not allowed to die ... regardless of the God or nature out there!
I have, in the past made quite a few requests to that effect.
I agree with some of the things that Dean and others, have said ... but I also think that a strict repository for everything from junk to gold is a bit of a problem and pretty soon the real estate is going to be acquired by someone else that has better ideas of what to do with all that space ... and junk!
The best example is the list of "unreviewed albums" where the listing for some is crazy, repetitive and put together by someone that did not look at the material ... when it is asking for reviews for singles and in some cases we are talking 5 or 6 reviews that can be done within the album context ... maybe even "linking" that single to the album would make a lot better sense than adding another review for 25 or 6 to 4 ... that is insane ... and a serious time waster and space waster. Pretty soon we should review all three versions of "Light My Fire" ... the LP version, the bootleg version and of course ... the 2 minute AM version of the song? ... give it a break ... !!! Stop the foolishness!
My main concern for a little "cleaning" is NOT to delete groups, or artists, but I think that IF we clean up the definition and its sub-divisions BY OURSELVES, not some outside nobody's opinion ... SINCE we HAVE the biggest and the best list of ALL, and therefore are way more qualified to make an opinion and judgement on the issue. But there are some "reviews" that really do not fit in a "review" area ... but they are fairly good to be on a thread about that group or such ... so the database could have a thread tied to that group ... for example.
The other part, is ... the Forums. I like them. But there are a lot of things in the forums that probably could get weaned and probably killed and simplified. Also the sending of messages to other groups is a hassle, because you just about will never know where your message went if it was in the wrong group to begin with ... and it is easiest to have an all open thread and from there the admins send everything forth to the proper areas. This would affect the newbies more than us ... since we know where to go, but I have to say that at least 15 to 20 threads I have not bothered with and that I have lost more topics and threads than you can imagine. Not to mention that the Search tool is not user friendly at all and has some requests and information that 99% of us would never know how to use!
The interviews. Too much of that stuff is LOST. All of these need to be locked and hooked up to the artist information ... PERIOD. With one problem ... a lot of the artist information is NOT including the interview information ... either the person writing it never saw it, or they did not know how to work with what was said about the music through the artist's words. Or the interview came later, but this is where the person in charge of that area/group, should check to make sure the information is used and updated.
My view is ... yes we maybe reviewers, but we need to commit to the ART and the ARTIST ... not our imaginary definitions ... and the choices on this matter need to be done according to that ... not someone's knowledge of "neo-prog", which slants the reviews and the group/artist information into an area that separates it from the art and the work itself. ... but it looks good next to the MSN article!
I am of the opinion that PA has to do some cleaning, or it's going to lose its luster and eventually people ... and that would be really sad ... but I'm not sure this can happen, when a lot of the suggestions and ideas come back a bit on the combative side of things ... I can relate ... my ole roomie makes over 70k working with databases, mail servers and security ... in general it is always "too hard" to "change" or "update" anything ... because the focus is always somewhere else. But he got a new job and gained 10k more when the attitude changed!
The difference between the good database programmer and the rest? ... open ears and ideas ... not saying ... can't be done!
So I just have fun! And tomorrow it will be another game ... it's the nature of the Internet and loyalty, isn't it? ... ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 19:14
The complicated forum is the biggest downfall of this site and it seems that we spend more and more time chastizing newbies who post in the wrong spot rather than fixing the root problem which is the way the forum has been set up. Admins are always instructing newbies to use the search function but the search function is no good. I have searched for specific articles I myself started and havn't been able to find them because the interface is so bad.
As to the interviews it only makes sence to have them linked to the artist page and preserved in a form beyond being a thread in a forum. We have some great and informative interviews in this forum, its time they recieve the status of being artist interviews and not just posts in among the rest. ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 19:23
No. We list the full official discography of every group listed. If they recorded and released it we list it. No ifs, buts or maybes. We do not list bootlegs - they are not official releases and will not be listed here. If you don't want to write a review for teh 24th version of Light My Fire then don't write a review for it - be your own editor.
No. Anyone can write a review and have it listed - good, bad or average it makes no difference - everyone is equal regardless of their skills in writing or music appreciation. If you want sanitised, edited reviews by jaded hacks go elsewhere. If you want to know what real people really feel about an album, here we are.
The forum is the forum - debate reforming that elsewhere, not in this thread - this is about the PA database. We don't need tangential off topic discussions in this thread.
Interviews are part of the forum, no the PA database - the database is an archive of discographies and reviews, it is not a Prog ezine. Perhaps Interviews could be part of the database - it is something to discuss, but not in this thread.
I have no idea what you've just type... whatever you're trying to say has not made sense to me.
------------- What? |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 19:31
I actually think that something like that should be in a Forum a lot more than it should be listed as a bonafide music scene. But who knows ... one article in Seattle calls it "grunge" and it becomes famous for the next 20 years ... ?
I also don't know how to present this ... but there is some "scene" information that we need to update and upgrade our DEFINITION of progressive music, and where it came from, so that we don't look uneducated and silly ... and a BBC special shows us ... what I have been saying all along that is really hard for many folks to work with and accept, much less discuss, unless you were there.
For all intents and purposes, we are in a position to put together the best information, diary, library, anywhere on the Internet, but for this to happen, a lot of the things that are being said here need to be looked at appreciated, and we need a few more people that can say ... we need to add that ... instead of the opposite.
I remember the discussion on one of my first postings here with a kid that had been in the Iron Curtain, and the things I wrote were valuable and neat, and even he thought so and added to it ... but the value of that, and even how something like that last song in Guru Guru's Tango Fango album comes around ... is totally lost because we thing that the music can only follow some musical precepts and nothing else ... and in the end, the whole thing about music history? ... break all the previous precepts and create new ones for tomorrow ... but in this sense, we are horrible historians, and on top of it ... have a tendency to disperse the value of a discussion with comments that do not help the value of the thread ... and that is one thing that anyone involved with the QUALITY of the work needs to learn to appreciate a bit more ... doesn't mean that Snow Dog or Walter can't add their 2 cents worth, but in the end, we just need to have a little more care and respect for the work itself ...
And YES ... I do have a lot of respect for a lot of the work that many folks do here ... a lot ... and I would be a jerk to not appreciate the insane time and effort for someone like Torodog (hehe!) to get that many interviews in so short a period of time. For my effort I am trying to get a couple of major ones added here if I can ... I have to get permissions first.
And yes, what PA needs is a Gonzo, and a few more writers that shake up the pipes! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 19:39
------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 19:42
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^^^^
oh and as to the millions of versions of a song in the discography I think its rediculous especially when some lesser known bands do not yet have their full discography included and when those millions of versions go unreviewed. ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 20:08
 Anyone can add albums, singles and DVDs to the discography section of the database. We don't list millions of versions of song unless the artist has released that song on several different albums. If the same album has been releases several times then we list it once and once only. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 20:13
Keishiro started the thread, he doesn't own it. Things may work like that on other forum, but not here - once a thread opened it is everybody's thread. We (Mods) don't actively keep threads on topic, but in cases such as these tangential discussions (such as this for example) are not helpful.
The "adding interviews to the database" was my suggestion - my call I think  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 20:17
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 20:37
-which is a long way of saying I think I must have missunderstood you ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 20:43
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^ fairy snuff.
The "reforming PA database" is specifically about hte database - which is the artists discographies and the accompanying reviews - nothing else is associated with the database because that is what the database is. Interviews, blogs and articles are not part of the PA database.
I'd never say "I'm an admin and I say shut up" btw - people are free to ramble all they want- just open a new thread for a new topic and ramble away to your heart's content. ------------- What? |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 21:42
Interesting posts (all really), and it all comes down to personal preference and especially experience. As a 'band adder' (I almost wrote Black Adder) the choice of who to add comes from the team and if one does not agree, the band is not added. It has to be that way or we will be adding every suggestion that appeals to the prog pallette of the team members. Yes we have to have an if X =Y checklist or we have nothing to go on, just gut reaction? There have to be guidelines.
We can throw bands to other teams to evaluate and usually they find their way in some niche genre. if not, they perhaps were not prog enough. I have issues with some bands on PA but I can respect they appealed to the prog pallette of the members and have no argument with spcific members for adding, it simply does not make sense, music is subjective so i have to keep the open mind of a saint. Or ignore the bad altogether. Case in point. Some want to add Nick Drake. I can understand it. here are elements of folk prog. But as I am no expert in the genre i can not comment further. If he is rejected I have no qualm with that. The site does not need to have bands removed. That is a disrespectful action - to those who were here in the early days whpo evaluated and agreed these bands deserve to be here - to remove the bands would be disrespectful to the hard work and the reviews. It simply cant happen.It needs to have bands added however that are still awaiting inclusion - they are prog but the teams cant make up their minds. It takes time of course but in the meantime band after band gets included. Alternative is that the bands can be re-evaluated that ARE here but are questionable. They stay here but in a different genre, maybe not a full prog subgenre. Case in point, I was looking for a prog metal band (MMA listed) and found it here in Jazz Fusion! I don’t get that. I guess theres a reason (Visual Cliff) are in both genres. But they are more metal these days. Listen to latest albums. But it is not my place to question the original genre, but I don’t have to agree either. ------------- 
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 21:56
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There may be certain cases where genre teams find a band that doesn't match the definition, and they can discuss possible moves with the other team and/or Admin. But they are best handled individually by the teams, I don't believe these kinds of changes/additions/deletions are best addressed at the hands of a discussion thread in the main forum. Just my opinion.
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: March 23 2011 at 22:11
To Expand the database is an idea that must work when you consider those artists who are missing because a certain genre does not fit. i see prog changing over the years into undefineable categories and we must pigeonhole them due to the genres on offer. Yet they dont fit anywhere. Cog were rejected - why? They are prog, but Aus prog is hard to categorise, I know there are only a few bands here that are included cos the genre doesnt allow for a different type of prog. Alternative prog in a sense. or at least related to prog.
Recently Total BS were seen by members as not able to fit in any genre and they are still not here. Yet the artist had posted info on their official sites taken from PA, reviews etc becasue they consider this site as a quintessential resource. Other sites have included them as prog or made it known thats the genre, no subgenre, but we have not. I know its only one band but it shows that there is a problem with the genres.
I made a comment we dont have to improve the site, we don't. We dont have to reinvent the wheel so to speak. But if we added some more genres its an add on, no deletion necessary, but we can add to what we already have and that can only help with a site that is already an excellent resource. Improvement is not necessary, but we should at least work to maintain what we already have and move with the times. -------------
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Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: March 24 2011 at 01:42
Thanks again mates, and especially Moris ... he has opened the floodgate in the thread.
Anyway, as to pre-1969 as-it-is-said progressive rock, Eetu's spoken for me well:
------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: March 24 2011 at 01:46
   ------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 24 2011 at 04:42
So basically you'd propose that the site changes name to: AnythingClarke2001LikesArchives.com
, right???sounds democratic enough
!!!------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: March 24 2011 at 04:49
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^No, actually I don't like half of these.
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: March 24 2011 at 06:50
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My feeling is that clarkes suggestions are fair - as long as we are adding to... not taking artists off the database.
The efficacy of adding artists has been excellent of late looking at the Added thread, so it is working well.
-------------
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 24 2011 at 20:46
I'll second that one ... Dean might not like it ... but I would buy him a dinner and a show in a minute if I was in London (wherever he is) for him and his significant other.
Now, as for his doggie ... sorry pug! We'll have to see about a bone! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 24 2011 at 20:51
But it would give the site a different look ... with its proper sections ...
In fact, this would only require a FRONT END clean up ... not any database changes ... though I would still suggest some clean up on some links and information to help define the areas and style a bit better ... AND ... in a more clear and concise way -- that is VISIBLE and can be charted. We will have to have Paravion create a nice chart for it ... and not make it 3 or 4 or 5 dimentional so we can't find anything in it!
 I do agree ... database changes are a mess ... and often risky ... and that was not what I really was wanting to get across Dean. We have the same issue where I work ... but the front end? ... can get cleaned up anytime and it only takes the desire to do so!
And I wanna use some more of Darkside's pictures, too! ... and hopefully he won't charge us for it! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 25 2011 at 04:28
), this is not the tread for discussing format changes to the front end. This thread is for discussing content of the database.
I think changes to the front end can contain some good ideas and can be an improvement. Moving the interviews out of the forum and onto the main PA is a great idea - the blogs are already accessible by that method so why not the interviews. But please, open a new thread to discuss things like that.
(I'm not a fan of Abel's collages, but that's just me) ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 25 2011 at 04:30
getting me to London is harder, however, if I'm ever orbitting planet Pedro...(ps I hate dogs slightly more than I hate Lundin) ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 25 2011 at 04:31
Moris is absolutely the last person you could accuse of doing that ------------- What? |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 25 2011 at 05:02
Dean, it was a JOKE!!!!
 Just in case.....
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 25 2011 at 05:27
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While tracking down the missing ID numbers that Keishiro asked about earlier I spent a lot of time on the http://waybackmachine.org/*/www.progarchives.com" rel="nofollow - WayBackMachine looking at the previous incarnations of the ProgArchives over the years. While it is not a comprehensive record, it does have several snapshots of the site at numerous points in time going back to 2002. What that shows is many of the bands currently in Prog Related were added to the PA in "pure" Prog subs before the creation of the PR category. While that is not a "defence" of PR as such, it does demonstrate that people's opinions of what does and does not belong here did not change because of the creation of the PR category, it's always been like that and always will be like that. It also indcates that this "opinion" is not polarised into inclusive and exclusive - there are degrees inbetween and each of us has a different view of what that degree is. I err towards the inclusive and can see some logic in including some IDM artists, but don't see a place for The Stranglers or The Tubes for example - each of us is inclusive and exclusive in some way. ------------- What? |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 25 2011 at 14:59
There is an exception to that rule ... when The Goons go on doing shell jokes!
 ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 25 2011 at 16:30
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Ah-hem, on topic. ------------- What? |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: March 26 2011 at 01:41
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Back on topic. I won't discuss the expansion of our database, which was the by-the-way idea on top of my mind, and it's not going to happen any time soon. Keishiro mentioned reforming of our database - I guess that could be interpreted as organizing it in a convenient way - with an accent on obscure, even dubious artists listed in the most problematic category: prog-related. I absolutely agree this should be done: someone might say 'our primary goal is addition of the bands', but if our database is messy, it will only get messier; PA is also prone to entropy. There are plenty of ways in which this could be done, but I think there's no point in starting of avalanche concering multi-tagging, various sub-splitting of categories and so forth. These task require M@x to hot-rod our web engine; let's see what could be done with the resources we got. Prog-related is a pile of artist which could be divided in few subcategories: 1)a bands with progressive members (that sounds ridiculous I know) which carried the 2)one-off artists, with one or perhaps two prog albums that went pop and are widely know for being pop, 3)borderline prog artists, balancing between prog and pop/new age/whatever 4)influential artists, 5)other (including mistakes). This could be applied to proto-prog to a degree, and in fact to all prog genres here. What we might do, (and we know we won't delete any bands) is to acknowledge in biographies to which flock each of the birdies belongs. Perhaps we might do a coherent history in a prog blog, maybe with something like 'rock family tree' picture. If I'm not mistaken, fields where biographies are written allow hyperlinks. That might be useful, minimize the confusion, and help even us, veteran collabs, discover relevant artists (for knowledge or for joy). One more thing I must mention: each subgenre, and consequentially, each genre team have 'skeletons in the closet', but I feel Crossover is currently suffering the most from that syndrome. I see too often tasteless remarks with new suggestions along the lines of 'well add X to Crossover, it won't be more ridiculous than Y that is already there', sometimes even from the collaborators. I guess it would be good idea to move certain controversial artists to prog-related, regardless of what some of us might feel about the band, myself included. I'm like everybody else: with some additions I agree, with some I don't. Big deal. But for some it seems it is big deal, to the point they're laughing at our credibility,  and we don't deserve that. Cynicism is one thing, trivializing of someone else's hard work is another. With moving these artists to PR, we would minimize, or at least localize our problems.------------- |
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: March 26 2011 at 19:24
Anyway, thanks Dean for your detailed expression and sincere opinion. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: March 26 2011 at 19:49
In this sense various opinions are welcome for us. Quite well-said, Moris. We PA members have to clear various hurdles for improving this expanding commune, but we Many thanks. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 26 2011 at 22:26
Dean, were the 'pure prog subs' circa 2002 broadly similar to what we have now? Did forum debate circa 2002 drive the site owners or genre teams to move the artists in question from the pure prog subs to the new category of Prog Related? (or was it a unilateral step?) -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 26 2011 at 23:37
Why move them? Weren't said artists added to Crossover for good reasons and voted in? Seems to me that's the point; trust. If some Collab wants to be idiotic enough to continually bash a fellow team for doing their job, that's the problem. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: March 27 2011 at 00:57
Couple of comments here. My understanding of how things work is that if a band or artist has ONE thoroughgoing prog album then for the purposes of this archive they need to be categorised as a type of prog. It doesn't matter if their subsequent twenty albums were pure pop. Is my understanding correct? Example: DRAGON, the New Zealand band, put out two pure prog albums in the early 70s. I have them. They should be in the archives, and not as prog-related either, despite the fact they abandoned prog and became a rather successful pop band ('April Sun In Cuba', 'Are You Old Enough'). Had they stopped after their first two albums no one would dispute their inclusion here. As for Crossover, my understanding is that Crossover Prog artists are 'predominantly progressive with elements of popular music'. This does make things difficult for those deciding who should be included, as there are those members for whom any whiff of 'pop' is anathema and will be upset by such inclusions. I'm looking forward to working with the Crossover team, and I don't feel PA's credibility is threatened by what we do. I get what you're saying, Clarke2001, and your suggestion might defuse a few arguments, but I don't see how shifting Crossover acts to prog-related would aid us in our aim of being the most comprehensive prog resource on the internet. |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: March 27 2011 at 02:16
------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 27 2011 at 03:43
The Xover team has never worked like that - we always ignored any later pop album when evaluating an artist. Dragon were conclusively rejected after hearing their first two albums:
Of course, you are free to disagree with Guigo, Chris and myself just as Olav did.
------------- What? |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: March 27 2011 at 03:52
| ^ Disagree? Absolutely not, not in the context of the site. I'm pleased they were considered. Doesn't stop me enjoying them! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 27 2011 at 04:32
Like you, I wasn't a forum member until 2007, but looking through the WBM and the forum: Prog Related did not appear until late 2005 (Dec?) - the Genre teams weren't formed until April 2006, the Admins took ownership of PR & PP in October 2006. So Prog Related was already established by the time any teams arrived on the scene and almost a year before Admins stepped in to take control, so my guess is that SCs sorted it out among themsleves in the forum. I did notice that over 2 years Supertramp were added as Art Rock, moved to Prog Related, then moved back to Art Rock and finally to Crossover when AR was split in 2007 and there are people here who still think they should be Prog Related.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: March 27 2011 at 05:24
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^ No wonder Rick Davies is confused... ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: March 27 2011 at 15:55
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[quote="Dean"]The "reforming PA database" is specifically about hte database - which is the artists discographies and the accompanying reviews - nothing else is associated with the database because that is what the database is. Interviews, blogs and articles are not part of the PA database.[/quote] Isn't this a little too restrictive. if we are discussing reformation of the PA database let there be room for what the database isn't at the moment. Discussing visual design of the database is (also) about the database, and wanting it to be different is suggesting a reformation of the database. I think PA is very ugly. But apart from visual design, I generally think it's a very impressive database and a good guide and I respect the people involved in the making of it. I've been a frequent user since 2004 - and at that time it was my no. one source for information about music, now it's more about entertainment and I get most of my information and suggestions elsewhere. My suggestion would be that ratings should be unaccompanied by this 'guide'. (ideally - there should be no ratings at all - but that isn't very likely to happen)  Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music(23%)  Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection(55%) Good, but non-essential (15%) Collectors/fans only (4%) Poor. Only for completionists (2%)The little text that goes with each rating is rather ridiculous. If it's a masterpiece, it's a masterpiece. If it's excellent, it is so regardless of what kind of collection you have. And I pity the poor completionist. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 27 2011 at 16:01
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^ I would prefer that to stay. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: March 27 2011 at 16:38
I really dislike it because it says any prog collection. It implies I should lower my personal rating of an album if I I think probably won't appeal to a wide audience/generic symphonic fan (and I see a lot of people doing that in their reviews), and I think that is the incorrect way to approach it. I find the for fans only very confusing. Only for completionists is a very clear statement of poor quality, but for fans only does not at all imply 2 stars. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 27 2011 at 16:50
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I agree with Mr Air Mail, the rating should simply reflect the rating of the album, not whether it sits well in some idealised prog rock collection, but that's the way M@X wants it. ------------- What? |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: March 28 2011 at 00:36
The star rating with info is only a guide and can be used by anyone, but in a reveiw it all comes down to whether or not the album is poor, fair, good, excellent or masterpiece. Not everything I rate 2 stars is for fans or collectors only , but it is not quite good enough due to the whole album not up to standard, it may have one or two terrific songs nbut a lot of mediocrity to wade through. 4 stars reviews are easy to find - an excellent album that does not quite come up to the masterpiece status. I use 4 stars a lot, but sparingly use 5 stars, or for that matter 1 star. Theres usually something to find in an album lifting it to at least 2 stars. Its only when the whole thing fails dismally and has no redeeming value that one star applies.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 28 2011 at 06:35
Not sure I follow your reasoning here Henry. Surely any means 'all inclusive?' e.g. Close to the Edge would still be an excellent addition to a Prog Rock collection that consisted of only Prog Metal/Heavy Prog and the Residents would still be an excellent addition to a Prog Rock collection that consisted of only Symphonic/Crossover Prog or am I missing the point/logic? Confused Rodent -------------
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Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: March 28 2011 at 16:04
| I've long thought there's a difference between whether I think it would be an excellent addition to anyone's prog collection or whether THEY would think that. Such unvoiced considerations surely influence how one grades an album. You're thinking the former; Henry, I suspect, is thinking the latter. |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 16:23
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I think the star descriptions make kind of sense. But the problematic thing is that they invite the reviewer to argue how 'Prog' he thinks the album is. Which sort of contradicts this guideline: 5 - Do not voice general opinions on matters such as whether a band/album/sub-genre should be included in the site ... So you need to establish and rate the Prog factor and quality, but are not supposed to discuss if an artist/album should be in the database at all (= whether it is Prog or not). ==> Fatal system error #AE3445DED@@  EDIT: not that this has bothered me so far, I'm still in good health and sanity |
Posted By: scophone
Date Posted: April 07 2011 at 05:30
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Very active BBS, very happy to join you |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 20:53
I was thinking of making this easier ... like:
PA recommends this album to any Progressive Collection, to show the extent of the artist's work Very good music within the style, but not as strong over all as the first ones. Always nice to listen to.While not earth shattering, these usually are the odd bands that make a collection unique and great.In general, not thought of as "progressive" music and we feel the quality is not as good as others have done.This way, I think the descriptions are a bit more sensitive to one's tastes and a bit more direct in relation to the music itself. I kept thinking in your description ... what is the difference between the 4* and 3* and I could not see it, other than preference. And I have the same concern with the PA ratings ... I don't see a nice, easy, logical, description that makes the ratings obvious and easy as pie!
I would like to see the ratings, the definitions, and the way we talk about these things ... NOT be some sort of arbitrary thought or idea ... and that we make the way we describe these things stronger and better ... when even the admins don't agree, is a sign of a democracy of some sort ... but also, at times, the sign that we simply don't know and can not agree on anything ... ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 21:01
With only one problem ... someone doesn't like bruhaha and rates it 1 ...
I am not a Gentle Giant fan, but I can tell you there is a lot of amazing musicianship in there ... and the question is ... is that reviewer fair enoug, and intelligent enough ... to not say ... that Wagner is stupid ... or that I don't like Stravinsky, therefore he sux ... kind of thing ... and this is the past of a lot of reviews in PA that is really sad for me ... we try to "hide" inside a "progressive" ideal, and in the end, we dislike something because it is not progressive ... and really ... by now, we should ahve removed all those? I can understand it being removed because the artist is not considered "progressive", but trashing an album or an artist because supposedly the music is not up to that person's wishful thinking ... is not objective and is not a fair review and the person in charge of that division should either request a rewriting of the review or remove it!
This would take out the fans and those trying to hype a lot of reviews superficially.
It is nice that we are "open", but in the end ... are we doing the music a favor? ... and the answer is ... probably not!
Now let's check Wiki for articles trashing "progressive" music ... not many ... and that tells you that they are making an effort to get consistent and help define it better and more ... than we have! For that reason alone, bad reviews and malicious reviews should be removed ... along with the 3 minute bathroom newspaper review! Gadddsss ... you would spend more time looking at a Playboy fold out than you would a review! ... now you know when the writing is bad!
(Just a fun analogy!) ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Kilgannon
Date Posted: April 12 2011 at 05:02
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Say we did manage to eradicate 'bias' from the reviews on the site; we would be left with all our reviews completely based, as you say, on the merits of the skill of the musicians alone. The problems I see with this are, if it was based only on skill, of the playing or the composition, then everyone would end up listening to the same select group of albums as these would be decided as the most technically prolific pieces. Getting people to write based purely on skill inherent within the music also means that we're assuming this is what people want to hear in a review as this is what they're looking for from the music. But if they're writing their reviews on other areas of the albums, then surely this is what they're interested in when it comes to the enjoyment of an album, and what others are going to be looking for in their music. I think the problem is, in the same way that people enjoy different genres, people also seek out different qualities within the music, and if it's a matter of poor spelling/grammar, then all we can do is set up an internet-based language school and train 'em up ------------- 
http://www.last.fm/user/r3m3dylan3" rel="nofollow - last.fm Profile |
Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: April 12 2011 at 05:11
Easier? It would be way more confusing that way. Drop any guide to star giving. 5 means very good album, 1 means very poor album - it shoudn't be that difficult.
Three stars can only be given to non-debut albums?
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