Nazi Salute.
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Topic: Nazi Salute.
Posted By: Snow Dog
Subject: Nazi Salute.
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 04:19
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Just have to love the freedom of speech and expression they have in Germany. http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/odd/news/a306335/canadian-arrested-for-hitler-salute.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/odd/news/a306335/canadian-arrested-for-hitler-salute.html ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Replies:
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 04:27
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Well it's illegal there, besides you can have both freedom of expression and strict laws-- and I suspect the evidence will show the Canadian man was not endorsing Naziism (unless of course he is a Nazi), and, the article claims, German law allows for the humorous or critical use of the salute. Besides he's not a German citizen, I don't think they'll keep him for long. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 04:34
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^ I know it is illegal there. That is my point. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 04:38
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Right, but laws and freedom of speech can coexist; if the Germans don't want people flashing Hitler salutes, that's their right to decide as a democracy. And I don't blame them one bit. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 04:42
I hate that law, but as you say...they do have a democracy. Ridiculous to arrest someone posing for a picture though and confiscate their memory stick. Theft. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Atavachron wrote:Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 04:48
well it is for obvious and sensitive reasons isn't it???
I mean you Brutish will simply never let them forget it with those type of jokes.... so they're trying to make themselves forgotten because of that embarassing part of their heritage. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 04:52
If any one SHOULD be sensitive..it is the victims of Nazism...not those of the nation that used it and at one time worshipped Hitler. Embarassing? What a total under statement. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 04:56
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They're not allowed to show the Hakenkreuze either, mind you. Besides, if you're waving to someone and happen to stop your arm mid-wave, could that not kind of be deemed as inappropriate, even if it wasn't meant to be? -------------   
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 04:57
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The only proper Nazi salute is with the middle finger.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 04:58
I know. Even video games have to be edited to remove them which is beyond ridiculous. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 05:03
One of many victims of Nazism are the few citizens that remain who lived under it, whether you were drafted into the army or had to suffer the dictatorship at home they were all victims of a terrible regime and it is a fair law that use of old Nazi propaganda is now illegal in Germany. -------------  
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 05:05
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On plastic kits, you usually get the Hakenkreuze decals in two halfs. Some kits don't have them at all. Being a modeller, I want my model to be accurate. It doesn't show Nazism if I'm showing them. It's showing authenticity. By the way, I even saw some original photographs during the war of a Luftwaffe Geschwader removing their Hakenkreuze due to their disagreement about the removal (by high command) of their Gruppenkommandeure because he was married to a Jewish woman. There was also a pilot whose name was Adolf who hated Nazism so much, he asked everyone to call him Adam. Of course, he still fought for his country, as one did. -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 05:09
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Glaekelhaggenfaeger ? |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 05:11
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Geschwader = Squadron Gruppenkommandeure = Group Commander (although more equivalent to a Squadron Leader) Hakenkreuze = Swastika -------------
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 05:21
Are the models you build from Germany, or is it because they are also sold in Germany? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 05:24
Sold in Germany. Some are Japanese (Hasegawa), some are American (Academy) and I even have some Czech ones (who seem to have no issue with putting them in). I'm not sure if Revell (a French company) include them or not. Although Airfix don't include them at all, as far as I'm aware. Addendum: they don't show the Hakenkreuze on the box art/photograph though -------------
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 05:26
This what depresses me. Models which are meant to be accurate, cannot be due to the ripples from one country's law. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 05:29
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Although getting a paint scheme accurate is hard enough as it is! But yes, you want to at least show the correct markings.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 06:25
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Denial of the holocaust is also illegal in Germany
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 06:36
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I am opposed to any laws that the government can abuse to bully undesirable people. This is one of them. "The Nazi salute, usually accompanied by the phrase "Heil Hitler!", has been illegal in Germany since the end of World War II, though it may still be used for art, teaching and science. Instances where the salute is ironic and clearly critical of the Nazi regime are also exempt." As soon as the law can objectively define "art" and "teaching," and for that matter "ironic" and "clearly critical," such a law has no place on the books. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:03
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I used to build model airplanes from kits. I was particularly fond of WW II aircraft. I had put together a large scale Stuka dive bomber. And yes it came with decals for the original markings. The cat knocked it off the dresser and destroyed it. My favorite was a Flying Fortress model.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:13
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There is a difference with the Wermacht cross and the nazi cross
I've seeln allmodels - I used to build those 1/35th Tamya models with the army crosses - they're not illegal anywhere, I think.... But the slated nazi cross did nott appear on tanks and planes.... just on some official cars bearing the nazi black, red & white flags.
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:17
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No wonder. Cats had a particular hard time during WWII. The Nazis hated them because cats were more intelligent and more human than the Nazis. Most cats hisses and becomes aggressive when confronted with Nazi symbols. Back to Snow Dog's opening words. Why ban the Nazi salute ? Well, laws are made by human beings. Human beings have human feelings. Germans too have human feelings. Germans are in fact, human beings. We may disagree with this law, but taken into account how Germany looked like in the summer of 1945 and the shame all Germans are born with (two world wars & Holocaust), I can understand this law. It is the type of law mentally and emotionally scarred human beings makes. I don't agree with this law myself. But then again; I was not in Germany back in the summer of 1945. I though do have German friends in the age group 25-45 and they all think it is a good piece of legislation. So, there it goes.
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:18
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I would have liked to have been in the room when the German government seriously suggested that making Nazi symbols illegal would prevent the rise of another Hitler-esque regime.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:20
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No need for a time machine. You will find the reasoning somewhere on the net. Google will help you. Read and agree/disagree. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:23
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I may as well waste my time reading a proof that the square root of two is rational.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Formentera Lady
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:24
I agree with the law. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:27
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The irony is that by outlawing such expression, the government is echoing Fascism anyway. I wonder if they would outlaw yellow stars.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:29
Exactly my point. If government can't effectively outlaw something as tangible as alcohol without complete tyranny, what chance does it have with ideas? ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:30
| The problem is that people here is using 2011 logic on a law which was made with a 1945 logic. That's wrong. But I will leave that dead dog buried. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:32
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So laws that were made using erroneous logic from the past should not be criticized?
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:34
Laws made in 1790's logic say I get to own black people.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:49
Real logic remains logic and is not affected by time. And if the Germans continue brewing beer according to the Reinheitsgebot (dating from 1516), I have no problems with it. Zum Wohl  !------------- 
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 09:20
Even some privately restored German warbirds such as FW 190s & Messerschmitt Bf 109s don't carry the swastika. Instead they paint on the Bundesflagge und Handelsflagge on the tail fins where the swastika was normally located on wartime Luftwaffe aircraft. The aircraft on static display in German museums usually carry the swastika. Back to the moron who gave the Nazi salute. Why he did it ? because he is a moron. I'd like to see him do that in front of a Royal Canadian Legion branch during Friday bingo night. He 'd get his head kicked right in. ------------- |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 09:51
I was reading recently that the Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Kondor that is being restored for static display in Germany is being restored in a pre-war scheme but without Hakenkreuze (even though it is a pre-war scheme, many did have the Hakenkreuze on the fin in a while circle on a red band). I think sometimes it's people outside of Germany who get weird about it, rather than Germans themselves because they think "ooh, best not offend the Germans!". Obviously Germans do get upset about it though and it's perfectly understandable why as well. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 10:26
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While I understand the reasons why it is offensive to Germans (and others besides), I also find it a bit of a strange law. Criminalising a hand gesture seems like an odd thing for a modern developed society to do.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 10:49
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It sounds like this was an act of ignorance just as flying a swastika flag on a flagpole in your front yard would be.
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Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 10:57
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I pretty well agree with the law regarding the salute. Someone who would openly use it in public, as far as i am concerned, should have his (or her) head checked. To use it openly would be a way of psychologically (and even physically in a sense) giving legitimacy to what it is representing, and that is wrong. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 10:57
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Lot's of people are ignorant. We don't throw them all in jail. You also have no idea what happened. It's a generic hand motion. It could have been interpreted to be greatly different than what it was meant to be. Also, who's to say he wasn't doing it for satirical or educational purposes? ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:13
| Are hand gestures free speech? Do they symbolically represent words? We know they do. The government has no business legislating peoples words.and when they want to start to do so they should start in house with the lies they tell in order to maintain their state of disorder. I can dislike the nazi salute, and I do but I need no laws to help me dislike it. |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:15
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:23
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If the Germans wish to ban the Nazi salute and the swastika, that is their business. If, as a democacy, they wish to repeal the ban, that is their business also; however, I don't see any great movement on the part of Germans as a people to eliminate the ban. Therefore, all this indignation on this thread is much ado about nothing.
It is rather like the confederate flag in the U.S. There has been pushes for banning the flag in certain southern states which either incorporated the confederate flag into their state flag, or who flew the flag to commemorate the confederacy. Many states have bowed to pressure and removed the flags because of their direct association with slavery, an idea repugnant to many African-Americans (and rightfully so, given the Jim Crow laws enacted in several southern states that perpetuated inequality even after the Confederacy was defeated). ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:23
A Canadian man has been arrested after making a 'Hitler salute' outside the Reichstag, the German parliament building. According to Der Tagesspiegel, the 30-year-old from Quebec was photographed giving the Hitlergruß in Berlin by a 29-year-old German friend. The man was released after posting bail but had the camera's memory card confiscated by police officers, The Local reports. Officials will now conduct an investigation into using an illegal symbolic gesture. The Nazi salute, usually accompanied by the phrase "Heil Hitler!", has been illegal in Germany since the end of World War II, though it may still be used for art, teaching and science. Instances where the salute is ironic and clearly critical of the Nazi regime are also exempt. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:30
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[QUOTE=The Dark Elf]If the Germans wish to ban the Nazi salute and the swastika, that is their business. If, as a democacy, they wish to repeal the ban, that is their business also; however, I don't see any great movement on the part of Germans as a people to eliminate the ban. Therefore, all this indignation on this thread is much ado about nothing.
It is rather like the confederate flag in the U.S. There has been pushes for banning the flag in certain southern states which either incorporated the confederate flag into their state flag, or who flew the flag to commemorate the confederacy. Many states have bowed to pressure and removed the flags because of their direct association with slavery, an idea repugnant to many African-Americans (and rightfully so, given the Jim Crow laws enacted in several southern states that perpetuated inequality even after the Confederacy was defeated). [/QUOTEThanks for telling us about"much ado about nothing" and then giving your two cent worth of "nothing"]
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:35
You're right. They're a democracy so they can pass whatever laws they want, and I can not complain about them. I forgot. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:40
But really, it comes down to using common sense, doesn't it? Perhaps this Canadian didn't know that the Nazi salute was banned, but I am thinking perhaps he did and was being inciteful. If you're going to visit a country, maybe it is best to conform to their laws and not act like a twit. For instance, if I vacationed in a Middle-eastern country, I certainly wouldn't go about drawing pictures of Mohammed and publicly tacking them to walls. I do not agree with the prohibition, but I am certainly not going to insult the laws or religion of that country.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:44
You are not alone, but it always upsets me when PA members are ok with authoritarian restrictions on speech because of "offense". I believe I have a fundamental human right to offend people because "offensive" is a subjective, not objective, metric. The synagogue has every right to kick me off their property if I have a swastika on my shirt, but the government has no right to tell me that I can't wear it. A lot of Europe (+ Australia) have speech/libel laws that I find alarmingly fascist, and I can't understand why so many people are ok with them. Also, changing a state flag is far different from banning the display of the Confederate flag.
In the long term, I disagree. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:45
| As far as I know laws and common sense are not synonyms |
Posted By: zoom_zoom
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:50
| giving the nazi salute, even as a joke, is in poor taste. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:51
"Common sense" is a meaningless term, and I have started to get very upset when politicians use it. Besides that it's a dodge from saying what your position is and an implicit attack on your opponents', a lot of reality is counter-intuitive. Unfortunately, it's not going away any time soon, at least in US politics, because populism lolololol. Also, I should note that I am ok with Germany banning the Nazi party after WWII because that was an extreme situation. But there is not a serious danger of the Nazi party seizing control today. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:59
| Do they ban the toothbrush moustache? |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:04
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I'm not sure Ben. I guess it's certainly not advised. How often do you see someone named Adolph nowadays? Never. Not surprising, really.
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:12
Perhaps "common sense" is a meaningless term, particularly since it is so uncommon. But I would then suggest that a Canadian guest in a foreign country, Germany, being photographed making a strictly banned gesture in front of such a politically and historically important building as the Reichstag is the height of stupidity and crassness. What will he do for an encore, visit Japan and stand on the steps of the Imperial Palace in Tokyo, showing clips of the atom bomb detonating in Hiroshima?
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:13
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Damn job. I missed a great discussion.
f**k those laws. Regulating people's thoughts is the first step towards totalitarianism. Funny how to avoid another totalitarian regime some laws are created that would only exist in one of those. ------------- 
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:16
And I don't think you'll find a single person to disagree with you. Where some of us have a problem though is when you throw the stupid, crass person in jail for it.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:16
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:24
And you are right, of course. Stupidity and crassnes is not illegal, otherwise just think how many hip-hop artists would be serving jail time. I suppose it comes down to whether the Canadian gentleman was aware of the law, which the article did not make clear. If he was indeed aware of the law (and standing before the Reichstag making a Nazi salute seems to be a politically motivated action), then he deserves jail time. If he was merely being stupid, then the Germans overreacted. I need more information on the arrest and the subsequent investigation before commenting further, but I will say that I was aware of the German law, and I have never been to Germany, ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:27
Exactly T. It wasn't just a group of extremists who rose to power "somehow" and preached hate. The evil mentality that served as the impetus for what happened in the mid 1900s came from the masses, not just the government. A lot of people don't realize that those sentiments existed in the US before, during, and after all this- even some of our Presidents propagated it. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:34
Hmmm....perhaps my German history is rusty, but as I recall, Hitler subverted the electoral process. Hitler came in 2nd place to Hindenburg in the 1932 election, but under Hindenburg's presidency Hitler became Chancellor. When Hindenburg died before his term was over, Hitler forcefully grabbed the reigns of power and abolished the presidency altogether. Hitler was never "elected" to lead Germany.
As far as the German law banning swastikas, I do not see any great stab at totalitarianism on the part of Germany (or West Germany, for most of the period) since it was enacted 65 years ago. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:43
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Yes your history is rusty. Is rusty because it doesn't take into account that the big opposing party to Hitler's first ascension were the socialists, another state-above-individual movement that got ahold of the Prussian mentality. The nazis came in second but they were already such a power that Hindenburg asked Hitler to be his chancellor. Then only after Hindenburg died did he eliminate the Presidency and declare himself Fuhrer and Reichkanzler. He had eliminated oppositio first, and his first rivals to be put away were the communists, you know, those with quite a similar view but with a differen t color. Yes, the conditions in Germany were ripe for totalitarianism to take hold. Yes your history is rusty, or better yet, simplistic. -------------
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 13:00
I agreed with you up until the forcefully grabbed the reigns of power. The Enabling Act and The Reichstag Fire Decree were both passed legally. He came to power through the proper channels of government. EDIT: I'm pretty sure he even had the bill re-voted into law periodically. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 13:00
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 13:26
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It's not even a matter of if Hitler won or no. The party was second in the previous elections with around 33%. 33%. A society where a totalitarian, state-above-all, prussian-army-oriented, racist party is almost the one with the largest number of votes, is ripe and ready for totalitarianism. And then in the next process it would all be confirmed. Societies that start accepting the government to regulate everything are accepting that the individual has little value. From there to Auschwitz is not such a long walk... -------------
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 13:28
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The stupidity of this law is echoed by hate-speech laws all over the world. The notion that you can stop an idea by banning a word or gesture that connotes it is ludicrous. Words and gestures are arbitrary. Ideas will stick around and we'll just find another way to say them. You see this again and again with PC speech in the US. We used to call people with mental disabilities "simple" which seems a lovely word to me, but some people used it in an insulting way, so they changed it to "retarded," which after all only means "slowed." But this did nothing to change the way people thought and some people still used the word hatefully, so it became "mentally challenged" which seems to me far crueler than "simple" but it still has done nothing to change the original idea that authorities found distasteful. I think "mentally challenged" is on the way out as well, but who can keep track really? Banning a swastika or a salute will never do anything to stop hateful ideas from existing. ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 14:29
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It's time for British but mainly for USA people, to learn that the conception of freedom of speech, is not universal, some of us value more the rights of the victim than abuse of freedom of speech. For some countries, some acts and demonstrations are offensive, so we are in the right to ban them, if you don't like it, it's your problem, I believe there's an extraordinarily abuse of freedom of speech in USA, but that's the USA problem, not ours. For example, most of you know about Shinning Path, who killed 70,000 Peruvians in the best Pol Pot style (crashing the heads of those who opposed with big stones or blowing streets), OK, it has almost ended, but when it was in the peak, some newspapers made propaganda of their acts, so a crime called apology of terrorism was created......Many didn't liked i in Europe, but it was our right to protect ourselves, and later was discovered that the economic propaganda of this newspapers was used to send code messages to terrorists...So we were right In the same way, the Nazi salute is offensive to Germans, they have the right to decide if they ban it or not, and nobody has the right to criticize them, it's the voice of the majority. Iván
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:06
You mean that you do ban them, and that you think you are in the right. I disagree with the second statement. You should learn that your opinions aren't universal. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:08
I don't ban them, Peruvian law ban this acts (As German law bans Nazi salute), and nobody outside our country has the right to judge our laws. Perú It's our country, and we decide what is better for us, we are not a colony of USA or UK, so we can create the laws we believe are better for us. In the same way, Germans can create the laws they want inside their country. Iván.
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:09
Simplistic? Well, I suppose I did offer a one sentence reply to your specious statement that "it was a democratic procedure that put the Nazis in power in the first place." It was subversion and corruption of the process, falsity, assassination, sabotage and the coercion of the feeble-minded Hindenburg (84 years old, and by all accounts senile) that brought about Hitler's consolidation of power prior to dissolving the Reichstag and eliminating the presidency. But referring to Hitler reaching his goal through the democratic process is antithetical to his actual repugnant methods.
I will not argue that the situation was ripe for totalitarianism, but the sentiment for totalitarianism and its root cause in Germany grew from the incredibly punitive Treaty of Versailles. If ever there was a document that guaranteed another war, it certainly ranks right up there with the Treaty of Bretigny of 1360 as an agreement so obnoxious to the losing side that war was inevitable.
It depends on your definition of "passed legally". If you consider that communists (which accounted for 12% of the Reichstag) were banned from voting, and that many social-democrats were forcibly stopped from taking their seats by Nazi thugs, I believe it's noted that the Nazis would not have had the majority required to pass that act. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:22
So if you slaughtered every newborn female for a good harvest I have no right to judge your laws? I can judge whatever the hell I want to judge. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:23
I've heard that those numbers were pretty specious. Of course I don't know for sure. I'm not sure that it's necessary though. Just the vast numbers themselves are shocking. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:33
Please Equality, don't make a "reductio ad absurdum". If a crime against humanity is commuted, the United Nations can even send troops, but we are talking about our perception of freedom of Speech for our reality, a reality about wich you don't know a damn thing.. You can criticize what you want, but we are allowed to ignore your opinion...It's our country and you have no business about our laws. So let us decide our fate. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:37
I think we took this to mean that no one has the right to criticize your country's laws. Did you mean something else?
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:42
Did any country helped us to deal with terrorism? The answer is no, and we asked, UK captured a l terrorist spokesman (Adolfo Olaechea) and said that he had committed no crime in UK so they didn't send him to Perú. (I'm sure that if USA asked for a terrorist, UK wouldn't ignore the request), so if you can't help, at least let us deal with our problems. The perception of freedom of speech that USA or UK have is OK for them, but is not universal, each country has autonomy. Iván. -------------
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:45
 I know this has nothing to do with nazi saluting but I feel like talking about German airplanes. My first experiences with airplanes was with models and the weirder the more interesting. Plastic kits from Frog and Airfix depicting German aircraft were the most iteresting and I built quite a few. I think my dad was a bit worried at one point though. He bought me a Lancaster once but I had a whole Geswadwer of German fighters. One of the most interesting was the Blohm & Voss Bv 141 experimental reconnaissance aircraft. It's asymetrical design was revolutionary just like many German designs that explored everything from supersonic flight to variable geometry wings. Suprisingly the Bv 141 was very stable and the engineers had got it right with the torque generated by the BMW 801 radial engine cancelling out the offset godola that contained a three man crew. It was suprisingly stable with textbook pitch and roll characteristics, somewhat of a flying paradox that even suprised the test pilots and designers. It was also a challenge for a 12 year-old kid to make because of the detail required in painting the glazed crew gondola ------------- |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 15:59
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Wow, so it is true. We all hear "You'll be arrested in Germany for doing the Nazi salute or saying I love Hitler" but never really believed it. Guess it's 100% legit. Doesn't even need to be said how bad the Nazi regime was but that is justification in 2011 for censorship? Maybe some of our German friends can answer this for me: Do textbooks and all that really just ignore the whole Nazi era? Like the whole joke about how nothing happened at all from 1939-1945? |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:04
| Is the freedom of speech of us terrible Americans offensive? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:07
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Not offensive, but neither our conception of freedom of speech.. We respect what you do in your country, you should accept what we do in our's. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:10
| I still don't understand why any country's laws would be exempt from criticism. |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:12
Nah bro, they visit camps and nazi stuff wile in school years. That complete denial is 100% Japanese. It is so brutal that if you, as a Japanese, even mention it some people may consider you a traitor of trhe nation, pretty much as if you have burned down the real USA constitution as an American. But again, Japan barely had any punishment during the post-war years OR during the war itself, so I guess that's pretty much explained why there are people that actually behave/think like that. -------------   
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:24
| So let's see Ivan, you can say" I believe there's an extr.....abuse of freedom of speech in America" but I better say nothing about Peru, which admittedly since I know little about Peru, I would not do anyway but see here in America we "abuse" freedom of speech if such a thing can be done |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:27
Are you serious? Do you actually LIVE in the USA? -------------
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:27
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Well good to know for Germany (and I figured as much) but are you sure about that with Japan? Guess it's not a huge surprise though. And on topic: Yeah that's crazy. Banning of Swastika's and the nazi salute... It was horrifying, but time to move on eh? Many many places in the US certainly have no issue showcasing their...historical heritage despite the bad past they've had. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:30
Sure do |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:36
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heh "X is wrong with America" "Well, you know Peru isn't perfect..." "WHAT!? DIE!" Seems like perfect Ivan logic to me  |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:37
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Coincidentally I was just reading about the Barry Black vs. Virginia case from 2003. Essential reading for these kind of laws. Needless to say, the motivation of the Court was very interesting, as it supported the guy's right to burn a cross, while not denying that's a symbol of social hatred. If I understand right, the US Constitution will allow such elements of speech in the idea of protecting free speech, if they don't imply a actual threat. Very interesting, and maybe for us non-Americans, surprising. It appears to work well in the US. The German law would be non-constitutional in the US. But then, the context in the US is very different to that from Europe (more countries have similar laws, if I'm not wrong, and not only for Nazist symbols/speech). In Europe, there are quite a lot of Neo Nazis and right-wing extremist party that grew because of the massive immigration in the last two decades. There is an actual fight, and by fighting Nazism and fascing, these countries are not fighting long-dead ennemies (this @Brian). While innitially surprised by the logic of Barry Black vs. Virginia, I respect the American way, and I'd expect the same. |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:40
Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Japan is one of the most right-wing countries in the world. I'm actually surprised nobody calls it a dictatorship. I mean, one party ruled the contry almost unopposed for over 50 years (only recently the opposition got to elect one prime minister). And Brian, did you forgot that Germany was basically the ONLY country that was strong/big enough to be punishged at all during both WW? I mean, even today, after the country lost about half of its territory and a VERY considerable amount of its arable land, mineral-rich lands and more than half of its industry (Silesia + Alssace-Lorraine, they only kept the Rineland after the war), they are still the 3rd/4th richest country of the world. They were the only one with something worth taking. Besides, on both wars Germany was basically blamed for virtually EVERYTHING that happened, even though it wasn't like that, specially in the WW1. Because thet took that blame they are still bound by those laws. But seriously, a nazi swastika should NEVER be allowed to be used anywhere. these things belong in the past for a reason, like do slavery and genocide. -------------
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:48
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That is more or less how it works Alex. Here flag burning is one of the better examples. A lot of people (usually conservatives who of course yell the second amendment and not touching their guns...) get upset over flag burning, saying its so symbolic and in fact is like threatening the first amendment itself. In reality, powerful symbol or not, a flag is just cloth. As long as no damage is done, and you havn't stolen it from someone else, you should be allowed to burn it, as is protected by the First Amendment. Sorry if this comes across bad, I mean nothing by it, but is that really that surprising for non Americans? An intriguing lesson. And OK, maybe there are a lot of neo-nazi's in Europe but do you think they are really a threat? I really have no idea. Even if it is, freedom of speech is a double edged sword. Many many people here in the states like to say it, for themselves, but are fine with ignoring it for others. Likewise, freedom of speech means protecting even in the case of these neo nazi's. One can't pick or choose who gets freedom of speech, assuming of course they are doing no damage, and its legal. I remember seeing in class once a video about a neo nazi group wanting to march through a town with a big Jewish population, including holocaust survivors. A TERRIBLE thing no doubt, but they did everything legally so nothing should be done to stop them. If they don't turn violent then, like I said freedom of speech isn't always pretty. |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:50
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There are some exceptions though, where it's been upheld freedom of speech is not guaranteed in some cases. Schools, the military, slander/libel for example. At least I was told that in a high school law class Edit: Pat can help us I'm sure. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:55
It's not a reductio ad absurdum. Clearly you think that some policies are up for criticism by your response. It seems that you have just decided for the rest of the world which policies may and may not be criticized. I find it strange that you accept military intervention before you accept a verbal criticism. I'm not sure what that says. Of course you can ignore my opinion. I ignore yours all of the time. But countries have many stupid, immoral laws, and I plan to criticize them at my leisure. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:56
[/quote] It can't. Don't worry. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:58
Don't know enough about Japan to really engage in that, sorry. I'm not sure what the punishing thing has to do with it, but IMHO that is horrifying. No country should be punished in war, ever. "To the victor goes the spoils!" is what led to WWII. Even more wrong since you couldn't blame Germany for WWI as you said. Even in the case of Nazi Germany, war should be treated as a bad thing all around, even for the victor. Thus I feel no one should be punished. Sorry if I missed your point, I think I did. As for the swastika like I said with Alex man, freedom of speech is NOT always pretty. You mentioned slavery, that was the point I was making about some Americans showcasing their heritage despite their past wrongs. A swastika, confederate flag, any symbol of hate or injustice is just that, a symbol. Like words, they may be powerful but you can't censor them. Long as you don't burn it onto someone else's lawn or threaten them. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:59
I am free to libel you, I just might have to pay for it |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:59
The flag burning is obviously nothing more than expressing rage, that's not surprising. However a ritual of the KKK, which is (or was) an organization with an impressive and accounted body-count, now that's something different, enough to warrant at least an initial surprise.
I'm not an expert in politics either, but afaik there are concerning cases. The most relevant one was about a decade ago, I think, when a right wing party with Nazi sympathies came to power in Austria (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Haider" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Haider ) One of the parties in power in Italy may have fascist sympathies, and there are many extremist parties that keep growing since recent times. Hopefully it will remain at speech level. |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 17:04
Oi...thank you mister hair splitter. Why must everyone on PA do this?  YES, OK. You are FREE to libel me. Nothing can be done to physically stop you. But it's not protected since, as you said, I can take you to court and you may end up paying for it. Opposed to un protected freedom of speech (which is really what it is) where I can say "I hate you" without consequence. Not that any of that needed to be said but people always insist on making everyone state the obvious just to do so. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 17:05
There's plenty of cases in history where it was blatantly ignored at least temporarily or rather arbitrarily deemed to be an area not protected by the amendment. Just look at the Espionage Act passed upon entry into WWI. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 17:06
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 17:09
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 17:09
| Who started to split hairs by naming exceptions to the rules, I have no beef with you as long as you remember i before e except after c, lighten up |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 17:13
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 17:13
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I actually created a hot topic. When I posted this I thought i may get a whole lot of you criticizing me. I am gratified so many agree with my views. And whatever Ivan says, if I don't like the way things are in another country, I will say so. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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