From the start, they have been both Metal and prog, symbolised almost, by the appearance of Mike Portnoy. A long haired, troglodytic, metalhead, but so dedicated to prog, he has a King Crimson tattoo. I think that up until now, Dream Theater have been incredibly dedicated to prog and to metal, whereas most bands have 'splashings of this', and a 'bit of that'. I also believe that if one of these was removed, and the band could focus solely on one of the two, they would astound.

With the departure of Mr Portnoy, I wondered where they would go from here. It's almost certain that they won't abandon one of the two completely, but if they maybe just toned down the metal side of it, they may find themselves rather better received on this here website.

Thoughts?

Versus them recording stuff like SDOIT or songs like Octavarium.....I just wonder if they will ever try to create material like Scenes From A Memory, not the concept but the material.

 

That to me is Dream Theater. Even like Train of Thought, one of my favorite albums would be great.

That's me 

And the direction, as people above me have stated, is entirely dependent on the new drummer. If Dave Lombardo is the new drummer (which for god's sake I hope he's not) DT will morph into a prog-related thrash metal band. If Virgil Donati is the new drummer, DT will morph into a jazz based metal band. If Marco Minnemann is the new drummer (which I suspect he is), the band will morph into a  more a more thrash based prog metal band.

Anyway Marco Minemann for me - Jazz DT would be brilliant (never going to happen)

I'm not so much wondering about what DT will do as to about what will Portnoy do. DT will have to more or less stick to their formula, it's Mike who has become free, and given his very wide musical interests, from Yes to trash metal, one can only wonder which path will he follow.

I would like to see more Transatlantic, LTE and hopefully some OSI if he will do that......but this Beatles cover band stuff he is doing...mehhh....I just hope he does not try and record any of that and spend time touring on that.

 

My hope is within 2-3 yrs they will get back together and create some great stuff again before they all call it quits...

In the meantime, Myung can right everything... Whoever thought it was a good idea to stop him writing was a moron.

I read somewhere (don't ask me where I don't remember) that Myung stopped writing because his ideas needed worked on and weren't fully compatible with the music by the time he brought it to the other members so he stopped writing.

 

I totally disagree. Mike is not that great a drummer. He does have an excellent presence on stage and he plays up to the audience and has fun, which the other 4 are not willing/able to do like he does, and that makes Mike appear to be much better, and he is NOT ... he simply is the better showman ... and one of these days, you might stop and see how reliant he is on his snare drum, to the point that I would like to break it over his head and then tell him ... now drum! ... and he probably can't! He's a good, and fun, time keeper ... and a terribly over rated "drummer", in a band that put together a lot of music that was far more challenging to play, than his drumming gave it credit for, or could improve! Even in transitional parts, you get ... standard drumming ... that you would teach to your son at 12 ... not to a prime musician! ...

 

... With the departure of Mr Portnoy, I wondered where they would go from here. It's almost certain that they won't abandon one of the two completely, but if they maybe just toned down the metal side of it, they may find themselves rather better received on this here website. ...

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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com

Gotta disagree. Portnoy is an excellent drummer, one of my favourite, and I'm getting a little tired of your constant bitching about him.

 

Thats a great album and one that I can't see them topping which I think is part of the problem.

 

Portnoy is certainly a great drummer and evidenced by both this album and his work with Neal Morse which is exceptional and also LTE

 

DT need to find something new but I doubt they will want to. First thing will be to produce more of the same to keep the fans in place. Might see a change down the road but I doubt it.

This post confuses me 

And the worst part of him is that he spent the entire Scenes From a Memory tour pissing about on stage because he didn't like doing the same setlist every night, and he got away with it because he convinced the paying audience it was a funny thing to do.

So heres a little tip, when mister Portnoy gets his head out of his ass long enough to release a solo album, nobody buy it. Just download it illegally so you don't give this selfish moron anymore of your hard earned money.

And well done to DT for not letting him back in.

 

I don't really care much to know about his personal life, unless he wants us to know about it in a book or bio DVD...so most of what I hear I take with a small grain of salt.

 

We buy music albums and discuss that stuff.....I don't think his comments to people mean much, heck 90% of all musicians are drug addicts, alcoholics, womanizers and suffer from severe marital infidelity while touring....but we don't trash them for that do we.

 

But I guess if you are OK with an artist being a known alcoholic, drug addict, womanizer and cheater...then I can see how Mike Portnoy telling some kids his personal opinons on other music might bother you...really??

 

 

I agree with you.

if there is one thing i don't care about is their attitude or their personal life. I listen to music because I like music it as nothing to do with who or what they are. and even less how they act or in what they believe in.

 

but I saw DT a bunch of times and enjoyed it! but i don't know if it's a coincidence but he didn't have the same attitude with Transatlantic... but i can be wrong i was really drunk at that show...

Oh I definitely don't give a sh*t about personal issues, I was just stating that from personal experience of having been in the same room with the guy. It takes nothing away from his skill or music nor should it; I was simply stating a personal experience that verified some people's claims here, that's all. If we were to judge everyone we'd be in for a hell of a debate! Douche bag? Yes. Good drummer? Of course. Neither has any effect on the other, just stating what I witnessed good sirs.

Referring back to my original post, now I've given it a bit more thought, I think that what makes DT popular, is their quirkiness in the mainstream metal scene (Also known as their prog side).

E-Dub wrote: Still no announcement on who's filling the drummer's seat?

But, commercially, Black Clouds was a rebound.  As with SX, metal and prog crowd have divergent views on which are the better DT albums.  The metal crowd likes the more metal side of both bands and since metal fills the arenas to this day, I guess metal will win the day.   Then again, Petrucci loves fusion so he might want to ease up on the metal and lean more towards fusion and since he is likely to be the chief songwriter in the absence of Portnoy, he might exert a lot of influence over the rest of the band.  

You also have Rudess with a huge classic prog influence so maybe we'll eventually see something that even the current DT haters respect, or call unoriginal, either way exciting times hopefully

Have these people just not heard Dream Theater's music?  I know appreciation of music can be subjective, but it just seems incredibly strange that the band that put out songs like "Finally Free" or "Sacrificed Sons" would have that criticism leveled against it.  What songs are these people listening to?

I agree with this.

This is the most biast post, I have read on PA in a long time. I find most of DT's music to be just as emotional as the next band, and emotion is something I specifically home in on when I listen to music, and one of the reasons I love Prog so much. I cannot, I repeat, cannot understand all the hate that DT get for being soulless. I mean, i'm going to take the ending to 'The Count Of Tuscany', the ending of 'In The Presence.... part 2', A Change Of Seasons. You can never find something, if you objectively don't want it to be there.

I think the reason that DT get rejected, is because the Prog 'Elite' (haha), don't want to even consider that the reason that they are pretty well known amongst normal metal fans is for their emotion, and PROG ELEMENTS. Gosh! Mainstream scum, Liking PROG. Oh God NO!

I can understand why someone would dislike a band, but to have an army of snobs rejecting you, you must be doing something right.... I respect you for that DT, I really do.

Utterly, utterly soulless 

The only problem I have with Score, is that one of the violins is horrifically out of tune, for quite a while, and it's off-putting. 

Very weak reasoning and completely baseless argument. I listened to DT the way I listened to any other band.  I am sorry, but those songs too did nothing for me emotionally.  I find Change of Seasons so laughably overblown and, here comes that word again, cliched. Every time they need to build a crescendo, they do it exactly the way it's been done by oh so many pop metal bands in the 80s and yet because it's DT, I am biased for saying so, is it?  Honestly, why would you want to rant about what people say about DT's music or point examples of what you consider emotional songs by them (for persuasion, if not what is the idea of doing so beats me?) if you completely reject any criticism of them as prog elitism or snobbishness.  Oh, and before you jump to that conclusion, I have heard all three songs many, many times prior to this discussion.  So I was not judging Change of Seasons just now and posting my impressions. 

JS19 wrote: I think the reason that DT get rejected, is because the Prog 'Elite' (haha), don't want to even consider that the reason that they are pretty well known amongst normal metal fans is for their emotion, and PROG ELEMENTS. Gosh! Mainstream scum, Liking PROG. Oh God NO!

More knee jerk defensive reactions, FYI I am a metalhead and describing metal music as mainstream scum is, er, way off base.  I mean, since when was Rigor Mortis more mainstream than Dream Theater, for instance?  More proof that some Dream Theater fans, yourself included, cannot accept a different opinion and jump to the conclusion that it must be only because of prejudice or snobbery. In other words, that we are wrong and only you are right. Funny then that we are the ones who get called snobs because....     

Ironically, this thread was going along fine before, predictably, a Dream Theater fan just HAD to invalidate criticism made about DT and others joined in to express their condolences.  Is it so hard to stay on topic instead of launching into the same old rant every time the opportunity presents itself and then complain that people bash DT all the time?  Just take a look at how much you bash others' views each time you complain of DT-bashing.  At least, we only 'bash' the music, we didn't call you soulless.      

Like I said, I understand that music is subjective, I just don't think the level of emotion in those songs is really that ambiguous.  "Emotionless" is a criticism I might level against some grunge, which can seem to be built off of apathy.  It's not hard to sound emotional.  But I think Dream Theater couples this with a real sophistication to their sound that comes out in songs like "Finally Free"--the lyrics, the song structure, the presentation, LaBrie's singing, it just all comes together so well.

Also, what does "80's cliche epic" mean?  When I think of 80's epics, I think of Iron Maiden, Metallica, or Marillion.  Dream Theater definitely carries an influence from them, but it has a sound all its own.  I wouldn't call it "cliche" at all, as "Finally Free" doesn't sound like it comes from any of those bands.  As for Ayreon, I think they're brilliant and I love the style used on those albums.  Again, I find it pretty intensely emotional.  So I'd really like to know what this 80's epic style is.

For the record,  I love "Fallen Angel" and "Firth of Fifth." Brilliant songs.  But I don't quite see what they have to do with Dream Theater or "Finally Free."

As for sterile, compare DT's covers of Hallowed Be Thy Name or Love Lies Bleeding with performances by the original artists.  Do you really not hear the flatness and obtrusive loudness in DT's delivery and specifically Portnoy?  I do and so, again relatively speaking, find their approach a little sterile.   And I only mentioned covers to make a comparison, their approach is not very different even when they play their original songs.

Yeah, I'll admit I don't like their covers that much.  Then again, I rarely like covers, so I don't think I'm a fair judge of that (their recent cover of Stargazer was good, though...check it out).  I also agree they carry their style over to their covers, and it bears many of the same hallmarks...the major difference is that it really works for their own music.

I don't know if we can really argue here.  It's obvious I like many of the same things you hate about their music.  I will agree about one thing, though: their music can be "obtrusively loud" sometimes.  That's a major f**king problem with their latest albums.

rogerthat wrote:  Very weak reasoning and completely baseless argument. I listened to DT the way I listened to any other band.  I am sorry, but those songs too did nothing for me emotionally.  I find Change of Seasons so laughably overblown and, here comes that word again, cliched. Every time they need to build a crescendo, they do it exactly the way it's been done by oh so many pop metal bands in the 80s and yet because it's DT, I am biased for saying so, is it?  Honestly, why would you want to rant about what people say about DT's music or point examples of what you consider emotional songs by them (for persuasion, if not what is the idea of doing so beats me?) if you completely reject any criticism of them as prog elitism or snobbishness.  Oh, and before you jump to that conclusion, I have heard all three songs many, many times prior to this discussion.  So I was not judging Change of Seasons just now and posting my impressions.  More knee jerk defensive reactions, FYI I am a metalhead and describing metal music as mainstream scum is, er, way off base.  I mean, since when was Rigor Mortis more mainstream than Dream Theater, for instance?  More proof that some Dream Theater fans, yourself included, cannot accept a different opinion and jump to the conclusion that it must be only because of prejudice or snobbery. In other words, that we are wrong and only you are right. Funny then that we are the ones who get called snobs because....      Ironically, this thread was going along fine before, predictably, a Dream Theater fan just HAD to invalidate criticism made about DT and others joined in to express their condolences.  Is it so hard to stay on topic instead of launching into the same old rant every time the opportunity presents itself and then complain that people bash DT all the time?  Just take a look at how much you bash others' views each time you complain of DT-bashing.  At least, we only 'bash' the music, we didn't call you soulless.

I think the actual reason, that these threads go off topic is because, even though this thread was obviously a thread that discussed the direction the band would take, which would mean it was a positive thread, just for those who were interested, there's always someone who thinks of DT as a scapegoat for everything they hate about music. You just had to write a post so far up your own backside that you had to winch it out didn't you. Couldn't leave your opinions to themselves, oh no, because your opinions are the ones everyone should share. 

Of course if you had something constructive to say about the topic, this thread wouldn't go off topic. WHich is what you want isn't it?

rogerthat wrote:   Is it so hard to stay on topic instead of launching into the same old rant every time the opportunity presents itself?

 How ironic....

(PS. By the way, i actually agree that quite a lot of DT material can be a little emotionally cold, but there is some genuinely emotion stuff there, and to call it soulless is just blind)

(PPS. I also have absolutely nothing against mainstream metal, I can't understand where you got that bit from)

[I will point towards this glorious thread that explains all my points

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=75415&PN=1" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=75415&PN=1

Enjoy!]

I agree with you about Chaos In Motion, it was pretty bad, and LaBrie sounded absolutely knackered, almost ruined the entire thing. To be a hundred percent honest, if there was another live album, I don't think i'd buy it, I'm a bit 'lived out', and most of the time, I'd rather go listen to the studio versions, although I do have every other DT live outing. 

 

Not so fond of their studio albums after 6 Degrees, Octavarium the track is fine although not as good as it may look, but the rest of the album, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds are all rather weak.

However I think that the Score DVD has great stuff.

 

I respect them a lot though. Genesis screwed their career up far more and for longer time, and yet they get much less bashed.

Meh, concerning live albums, I rarely listen to them.  I prefer studio albums.  That said, Score was spectacular, and I'd definitely give another live album a listen if it were on that scale.

Octavarium's one of my favorite albums! The albums surrounding it, though, are pretty boring, especially Train of Thought.

I don't even think Six Degrees as a whole is a masterpiece.  I love the title track, but other than that...meh.  The major problem with Dream Theater is that they've gotten "heavier" and forgotten what made them great in the first place.  They're also good for their softer material.  Octavarium emphasized that, which I appreciate.

The sad thing is they'll never write another Images & Words.  I love everything about that album.

No, in that case, you DON'T understand that it is subjective because you seem to be unable to allow for a different opinion.

 

Hanyou wrote: It's not hard to sound emotional.

   It's not surprising coming from such a perspective that you'd struggle so much with the notion that DT lack emotion.  OK, let me put it this way, emoting is easy, emoting CONVINCINGLY is very, very tough.  

Also, what does "80's cliche epic" mean?  When I think of 80's epics, I think of Iron Maiden, Metallica, or Marillion.  Dream Theater definitely carries an influence from them, but it has a sound all its own.

Only to the extent that a band like Iron Maiden didn't have much pop metal influence.  Combine Maiden-Metallica riffery with that whole 80s arena rock kind of feel and you get DT.  They disguise it quite well with prog rock and fusion influences, doesn't mean I won't be able to see right through it because it's an uncomfortable amalgamation.

I wouldn't call it "cliche" at all, as "Finally Free" doesn't sound like it comes from any of those bands.

So what if you wouldn't, I am entitled to and I have given my reasons above.  

 

As for Ayreon, I think they're brilliant and I love the style used on those albums.

So there you are on consistency.  I said I don't like that style and don't find it all that emotional and also that I don't discriminate against DT specifically.  And yet, here you folks are trying desperately to prove that all DT-'hate' is just elitism.  Seriously, get a grip.

For the record,  I love "Fallen Angel" and "Firth of Fifth." Brilliant songs.  But I don't quite see what they have to do with Dream Theater or "Finally Free."

Er, that I don't think they are even remotely on the same plane, emotionally?  

Excuse me, sire, I am quite aware what the purpose of the thread was and had posted on topic before, what's more, you had even responded on them.  That is all the proof I need to give that I am quite well versed with their music and quite able to discuss constructively.  Take a look at where precisely the direction of the thread took a big turn.   As I said, it is not enough to discuss something related to DT for you folks, is it, you MUST somehow convert it into a rant against the haters.  Fine, you want an argument, I'll give you a swell one.  What,do you people get blinded to everything by rage if somebody attacks your 'beloved' band?    And by the way, LOL @ the very concept of "haters".   On a forum like PA where people disagreeing and moving on is de riguer, it probably only means an inability to accommodate another perspective. 

 

JS19 wrote: You just had to write a post so far up your own backside that you had to winch it out didn't you.

More defensive wailing, doesn't even merit a response.  

JS19 wrote: Of course if you had something constructive to say about the topic, this thread wouldn't go off topic. WHich is what you want isn't it?

Please see above.

JS19 wrote: (PS. By the way, i actually agree that quite a lot of DT material can be a little emotionally cold, but there is some genuinely emotion stuff there, and to call it soulless is just blind)

Er, do you people not understand the difference between relative and absolute attributes?  I had taken a lot of pains to explain that when people say DT is soulless, they don't mean completely, objectively soulless, they simply mean it's not soulful enough for them.  That is imo a reasonable position and if you won't even concede that, fine, go ride that high horse, whatever floats your boat.    Did you at all read and comprehend that post of mine where I described all this before declaring it most biast post and what not?

 

Derailment would be launching into conspiracy theories about the Kennedy assassination or talking about how many Pokemon I collected in the past 24 hours.

Anyway, since pursuing this line of discussion is seen as "derailment," I won't reply to rogerthat, much as I'd like to.

Well I think that the absolute definition of 'derailment' is to launch into a 3 post long defensive hypocritical rant ..... Eh rogerthat? 

 

Though I watch the DVDs quite a lot.

Chaos In Motion and SCORE are quintessential. 

 

I am saddened by the departure of Portnoy as a lot of fans are, but it is excitng knowing they are getting a new injection of blood with a fresh drummer, that could change their sound! 

Well this is what we *were* talking about before 'someone' turned up. I think that a new drummer will not have enough creative input to really change the sound of DT, until a few albums down the line, assuming they get there. It would be nice for a change though, I'm getting a little bored of the standard DT album.

I love Score, but not chaos in motion, I find some of the performances better, and the extra tracks like Raise The Knife really make it....

His latest one, yea, I agree, was horrid. It was practically screamo. 

I'm guessing they'll start to lean more towards Petrucci and Rudess' solo material.

add image and words in the really good ones and I agree!

 So true.

 

That's too bad when we as music lovers, particularly of the prog form...have to go to another website/forum to not get "forum bashed" or feel unwelcomed, especially on this site. People should just read the post title and if it not interesting to them then do not enter it........but I am sure my post will get slammed also.

Well I was obviously pretty naive in thinking anyone who didn't care for DT would just not bother posting on the thread. But apparently the hate is just too strong 

Swap Metropolis with Awake, I & W with Black Clouds, and Six Degrees with Octavarium, and I'll agree with that. I can't understand why some people think that DT fans 'worship' the band. I merely enjoy their music, it that so wrong that I should get completely slammed for it, it doesn't happen with any other band on the forum!