Ecologic urgency : Air traffic excess
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Topics not related to music
Forum Name: General discussions
Forum Description: Discuss any topic at all that is not music-related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=76217
Printed Date: February 22 2025 at 11:38
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Ecologic urgency : Air traffic excess
Posted By: oliverstoned
Subject: Ecologic urgency : Air traffic excess
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 08:37
|
There's a lot to say about the subject, but i'll begin with some pictures... Contrails (condensation trails) over France 
The sun is now white instead of yellow (and yellow/orange at sunset, instead of red) 
Artificial clouds appears everywhere below saturated airlines (south of France, famous for its beautiful sunlight) 
|
Replies:
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 09:19
|
Well, I would say there's a lot of air traffic over France. The coral reefs are disapearing & the polar bears will be gone by 2050 and the rain forests not long after. I think we are doing the best job possible to wreck our planet. I'm sure God gets up every morning and yawns makes himself a cup of coffee and before he switches on his computer says to himself " wonder what they've scewed up today ".
------------- |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 09:20
|
Salut Olivier
Effectively
they try to cut our use of the car, but they do absolutely nothing to curb the useless flights around the globe, polluting much morec (kerosen is much more dangerous than diesel or normal gas)
frigging
 societé de merde ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 09:45
|
We talk a lot about CO2 and greenhouse effect...always cars are quoted as a source of pollution as Sean said. The sad truth is that we are over the threshold of saturation of plane's exhaust since about 2007. The steam water/soot blend rejected by planes doesn't evacuate anymore.
The sky and the light become uniform everywhere: an eclipse light, even in the middle of summer. The weather is greatly disturbed since 2007: cloudy, dark, more and more humid. Because of this excessive moisture, it's always too cold or too hot, but we never feel well outside anymore. The sun dazzles (very dangerous when driving) and burns the skin cause the sunbeams are not parallel anymore: it has to go through an infinity of water drops blended with various particles. The sunlight is weaken and scattered. We're greatly disturbing natural water and light cycles which are vital for life on earth. No place anymore is preserved, here's the Sahara sky 
Whereas there's a very urgent need to go back at a traffic volume less than the world level of 2005, we're about to double and then triple the traffic. I let you imagine what quantity and quality of light we'll receive then. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 09:48
| Nice to see that people in Western Europe actually care about these things. Where I come from (Eastern Europe) everything (the air, the water, the ground) is unfortunately much, much more dirty, dusty and filled with toxic substances. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 09:58
|
After the 11th Sept 2001, air traffic stopped during 3 days causing a rising of 1°C centigrad of temperature in the USA.
During the volcano eruption of last April, all traffic stopped on most part of Europa during 3 days as well. Have a look at the bottom of the page of this (french) blog, showing two pictures: one took when there was no plane flying, the second one took the day after when a part of the traffic had begin again. In the two cases, the weather report announced good sunny weather: http://www.jehaisparis-maiscachange.com/article-la-disparition-du-ciel-bleu-avec-couchers-de-soleil-45296809.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.jehaisparis-maiscachange.com/article-la-disparition-du-ciel-bleu-avec-couchers-de-soleil-45296809.html |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 11:03
|
I remember reading that when the air traffic was suspended after the 9/11 attacks that there was a dramatic improvement in air pollution. I wasn't able to find anything to link to though. Down the memory hole.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 11:09
|
Good. So how do you propose that people move from country to country? ------------- 
|
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 11:45
|
What is more important.......... 1.......having a planet to live on 2.......moving from country to country |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:03
This is the most ridiculous and simplistic statement you've ever made. Not to mention it's also a false dichotomy. -------------
|
timothy leary wrote:Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:12
|
I don't know if you deserve an answer, the T...
But here's your sky: %20" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEAwShRjQM PS: i don't believe at all in the chemtrail theory, i only speak about "contrails" |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:16
Here it is: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2058273530743771382#" rel="nofollow - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2058273530743771382# Everyone must see this video about global dimming |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:21
Explain. It would seem you only discuss things with people who agree with you. Therefore, you don't like to discuss. -------------
|
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:27
|
I guess an alternative source of clean renewable energy needs to be found, and quick, because we are not going to change our travel habits. Unless, of course, the cost of fuel goes through the roof and stays there, and carbon taxes are imposed on all nations making air travel only the preserve of the uber rich.
It's interesting that technology allows us to telecon more and more at work, and yet business air travel seems to increase year on year. The company I work for spent over £1.3 million on travel last year, and that's just our one UK site. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:30
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:30
-------------
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:33
I don't give you my approval anyway. And I'm quite sure you don't need it. This website and discussions are not about giving approval. Yes, maybe the world is going down the drain. But stoping personal travels around the world is certainly not a bright idea of how to end the problem. I hope, though, that you've given up driving your car or riding on buses... They also contaminate, and horribly so. -------------
|
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:34
------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:35
 -------------
|
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:41
|
Ecological crisis? Depends on how you look at it. There were many extinctions before us. Most animals that were ever on the earth are extinct now. We're not really crying about that are we? So, humanity might be screwing up the atmosphere for a bit. Oh well. We'll just end up killing ourselves and most other megafauna on earth, we'll have a period of desolation, and earth will rebound, hopefully without a uncaring, out-of-equilibrium species like Homo erectus erectus around to screw it up again. Earth survives, life survives, the universe survives. Maybe it's to our benefit to care about the environment, but it's certainly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. All we are is ants builing a really large colony, and it will crash down sooner or later. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:47
What if it's in nature's way to create intelligent forms of life? One asnwer could be that there will be many such cycles until one intelligent species won't be self-distructive. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:47
Of course; I just want people realize that it's a collective suicide but yes for the earth it's nothing. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:49
| Maybe the world is going down the drain and maybe it will take us to stop it, it will take a lot more than less travel to do it too, the very soil and water of the planet contains the poisons we have put there, sacrifices will have to be made and humanity can solve these problems with clean energy sources and a cessation of the behaviors that got us in the mess we are in, as for what I have given up I never advocated cold turkey but a reduction in toxic behaviors which if implemented across the board would help immensely |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:52
Even if an alternate fuel is found, there are great chances that planes will continue to reject steam water (first greenhouse gaz BTW) so it won't solve the problem. You all need to watch the video quoted up so you'll understand some of the complexity of the problem. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:54
Maybe. Humanity by nature has a great ability to act on things that are immediate problems, but in general an incredibly unsustainable ability to plan long-term for future generational issues. The history of humanity can be summed up as the discovery of tools to further exploit nature with and decreasing sense of a need to replace what was taken. The course of human history would seem to go until there are no resources left. Then no more humanity. Assuming we don't boil ourselves in our own atmosphere or fry ourselves with nuclear weapons. We may be too late to change this, because it's not just a matter of alternative energy, it's a matter of a complete mindset shift in a species. Humanity, by the nature of it's mind, is intrinsically exploitative. I can't see how nature can favor this, but maybe we'll surprise me. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:54
This.
I had an idea that we all have this silly "Civilization" ideal in our heads that involves trying to reach an equilibrium between living things on the earth where all humans might be able to live for a sustainable period of time with something resembling the present comforts.
Ain't gonna happen.
Evolution is much more cut-throat and we're part of it. Lots of human gonna kill each other, lots of humans gonna starve, lots of evil atrocities gonna keep happening.
Intention is not enough. Something new will have to evolve. Maybe we'll get lucky. But the human creature as it now exists is incapable of reaching the ideal many of us have in our heads.
Or at least that is my fear. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:01
| Yes lets all excuse ourselves because its just a roll of the dice and its all in our heads |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:04
I know the problem is complex, and that's why I reacted to Tim's ultra-simplistic "having a planet to live one vs moving country to country" statement. Complex problems need complex solutions. If you think coming up with better and powerful enough to make planes fly sources of energy is quite difficult, even more so is trying to make people stop using a way of communication that has greatly enhanced and improved people's lives. It's actually impossible. -------------
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:05
 -------------
|
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:08
| I said the problem is simple but the cure is hard |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:13
Actually it was you first who put the problem in the black vs white "having a planet to live one vs moving country to country" way, T.  And of course when someone states the black the white fans show up to combat the black, like now with Tim. Maybe if you didn't simplify the problem like that we wouldn't have gotten another ideological debate. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:21
I see the black and white things started after me. I just asked a question about the issue at hand. What are you calling me an ideological person??  -------------
|
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:22
I agree. People wont stop traveling, and commerce will not cease. There isn't a solution in terms of what the green lobby says needs to happen. It would require a basic and unanamous paradigm shift throughout the entire world, including countries like China and India who are on the ascendency. They are not going to sign up to treaties and protocols if it means they are not allowed a slice of the same pie we've been tucking into for the last century. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:24
| @T: Uh no, your question implies that Oliver asks for people not to fly at all. And he doesn't. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:24
|
The earth is a perfect capitalist system, a trade of resources from earth to humanity in exchange for greenhouse gases and rising temperatures. Everything can relate to libertarianism, always. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:27
I don't see that implication. I see a question. -------------
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:28
 -------------
|
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:30
That's why it's called an "implication". : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement 1. to express or indicate by a hint; suggest |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:34
< ="-" ="text/; =utf-8">
I know what implication means. For example, in this post it's clear you're implying I'm an ignorant and laughing at it because I don't even know English, whcih is not my native language. -------------
|
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:35
|
LOL
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:36
|
See? it's all to easy to see implications everywhere.
-------------
|
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 14:10
I'm not excusing anyone myself. I firmly believe human actions have led to the climate change we are currently experiencing. And yes, worldwide culture change would have some effect on it. How much is debatable...to what degree is the damage already done, how much impact on world economy (including the economy of food) would be required to scale back in order to decrease climate effects...humans outstrip carrying capacity of the locales all over the world, so if technologically energy intense transport was removed, there would be some major issues feeding the population.
It's very complex, and I personally think it's probably more complex than we can actually control.
We can nudge systems this way and that and occasionally thing happen the completely change the parameters of the system. But laws rarely do that. Feel-good campaigns rarely do that.
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 14:24
| What is the alternative to trying, Alpha Centauri? |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 14:25
|
I'm not very worried about this. I will bet anyone a hundred dollars that air travel doesn't lead to the extinction of the human race.
------------- 
|
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 14:31
|
Pretty safe bet since your opponent would be dead and unable to collect
|
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 14:34
|
Alls I'm sayin' is: Doomsday Theorists: 0 Sane People: A million -------------
|
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 14:46
| Yup, surprise of the century... we are ruining the planet. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 15:03
Nah, we're making it better. here are a lot more roller coasters and water slides than there were a hundred years ago. -------------
|
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 19:00
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 19:46
MDI
http://www.mdi.lu/produits.php" rel="nofollow - http://www.mdi.lu/produits.php
Compressed-air engines...
 (not for planes, but at least surface traffic)check-out a few YouTube videos about these vehicles (250km autonomy and 120km/h max), a solution that gets systematically ignored in political debates, because of job blackmail from oil firms and carbuilders
Pros: no more fuel, no depending on the Arabs or Russians for supply, no more pollution from refining, no danger of explosion or fire in accidents, no more pollution >>> not convinced yet???
 more Pros: anybody can tank for free if they got a compressor and a windmill to operate it, no pollution if filters are placed to catch lubrification oils , no more explosion-principle engines (the 600 bar compressed gas pushes the pistons downwards as it decompresses) and no heat produced (actually you might get frostbite if you touch the engine as compressed gasses cool down as it decompresses) , tanking stations only need windmill and compressors, and just in case a connection to normal electricty in case of calm weather
Cons: I've yet to find any... except that it rritates heavily the petrol industry
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 21:30
Boats? You... Riverist! -------------
|
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 01:22
Exactly. I'm only against air traffic excess. Especially when you consider that all these flights are totally useless (travelling people and goods carriage). The T talked about families being separated if there was no traffic anymore. That's not an excuse because we took bad habits. Anyway, within 30, 40 years there will be no traffic at all anymore because of oil shortage. The problem is that it seems that there's enough oil to triple the current traffic's volume and so to suicide before the oil (complete) shortage. The smart thing to do would be to anticipate that situation and save oil stocks to make planes fly for really important things. And not to enable people flying to the other side of the world because it's the trend, to impress the neighbour or simply because they are bored. And think of all the countries basing their economy on tourism and so air traffic. But you don't imagine yet all the consequences of the phenomenon... 
|
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 01:43
Yes there are solutions but no political will. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 02:02
 le beurre et l'argent du beurre
 ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 02:03
Well, too bad he commanded his followers in the bible not to care. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 02:22
Hmmmm I do love roller coasters. I guess I'll accept the environmental destruction! |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 05:47
What? Even the Pope is a declared environmentalist in these days |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 06:31
I'm not sure why this is the smart thing to do. "Really important things" is a pretty subjective judgment to make. But assuming some government or governmental conglomerate did make such a judgment, all it would do is cripple the economy. A plane ticket would cost triple or more what it does now (since airlines would otherwise lose a significant portion of their revenue). The cost of goods will increase beyond what people can pay. Then someone on this forum will start a thread and demand that the government or some governmental conglomerate step in to either force companies to pay workers more so workers can afford goods or force companies to lower the cost of their goods regardless of overhead. As businesses collapse because they are no longer profitable to run, someone on this forum will start a thread and demand that the government or some governmental conglomerate step in to either create jobs so people can work and support themselves or increase unemployment benefits and welfare. For this to happen, there must be significant tax increases, thereby stifling existing businesses. Never mind that the initial increase in air travel costs will have placed a burden on the governments' budgets and taxes will have already likely increased. Never mind that the initial increase in air travel costs will have already crippled any small businesses that ship internationally. Then someone on this forum will start a thread and demand that the government or some governmental conglomerate step in and do something to make airlines lower their prices. The only way to do this without forcing airlines out of business is to nationalize (or internationalize) airlines. Now governments lose any tax revenue they had on airlines, and are instead completely funding air travel. In order to provide air travel at lower costs, governments must again increase taxes, thereby stifling existing businesses. Desperate for money, someone will create a new global problem to scare people into buying a solution for it. Privately funded scientists will back up the alarming claim with "science." Those who refused to be fazed by alarmist tactics will be labeled as ignorant and hateful. Then someone on this forum will start a thread and demand that the government or some governmental conglomerate step in and do something about the problem. And they will. You've got the money; they've got the time.
I get bored a lot and really want to impress my neighbor. Are you saying flying in an airplane will solve both of these?  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 06:34
|
You overestimate the power of threads in this forum, Rob. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 06:38
 ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 06:58
|
It's very simple, governments must compensate.
They will not and i don't blame them for. But that's what happens. 
|
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 07:35
|
I love how you keep posting these pictures as if they are supposed to shock and horrify us. A dead bee in the snow? Oh my god, you must be right! I think the vapor trails are rather pretty. -------------
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 12:16
Olivier is right.... we're flying on a stupid whims nowadays.... very few airplane travels are really essential... it's all superfluous and nausiating to our planet's atmosphere. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 12:22
|
This is quite... Absurd. Now we want a government aganecy to regulate where when how and why we should fly?
Let companies come up with a fix. Let's not go back the the 19th century, please? (at least in communication issues... i can accept it in music )-------------
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 12:25
-------------
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 12:28
get real, will you.... as if they're ever going to moderate flying needsby reducing the offer
Why don't you just give a flame-thrower to a pyromaniac??? you'll get better results at stopping the Muppet's cookie monster ingurgitating sweets  , than letting the oil and transport industries moderate pollution by decreasing the transport to the essentials. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 12:34
| Exactly...........the money is not a fix, the companies pay a fine, pass the bill to the consumer in higher prices and keep right on polluting |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 12:35
|
"Get real"? That's what I've been trying the entire thread -------------
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 12:38
when do you plan on succeeding
 ??? still this year... or before the end of the centuryps: don't set yourself up that way.... it's too easy... aélmost takes out the fun  ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 12:39
| At what point does polluting the environment become criminal.......if I vandalized your property it would be a criminal offense, accountability and a double standard, corporations are above the law in many cases. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 13:01
Oh to hell with earth. 
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 13:08
| The only sensible thing is go back to mud huts and pooping on the side of dirt roads. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 13:11
|
^Hey your poop now will make the world a bad smelling place! -------------
|
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 02:35
|
I'm not sure why this is the smart thing to do. "Really important things" is a pretty subjective judgment to make. >>> reserving oil reserves for really essential things: how about space-minded programs, boat & ship uses (in terms of amount of merchandise to pollution rates boats are really cool, force fluvial transport wherever possible instead of truck transport (I mean screw the just-in-time delivery system >>> they increase pollution by tenfolds) and stop people from flying across the planet for holidays and dumb/useless business trips >>> how's that for a start???
Yes the boat is the less polluting mean of transport along with the train which should be imposed by states over plane for inner flights. But assuming some government or governmental conglomerate did make such a judgment, all it would do is cripple the economy. >>> how is that a bad thing??? .... Our economical system (f**ked up right from the start) is bound to disaster soon or later (the sooner, the better for the planet if you ask me) I’d add that the decreasing of economy is a fatality anyway, as our economies are based on oil and nothing is done to anticipate the end of oil. BTW all datas regarding oil stock are hidden, each one will keep its secret stash until the last drop. We do nothing to prepare the transition. A plane ticket would cost triple or more what it does now (since airlines would otherwise lose a significant portion of their revenue). The cost of goods will increase beyond what people can pay. >>> no it won't, because the goods will not come from across the planet anymore... it'll (the consumer good) be made locally (therefore re-create jobs escaped to China) and won't pollute zillions of CO2 just to get to the supermarkets near you. Exactly. Anyway all that is not tenable, even on medium term. So why wait to be in the wall to react ? We’re not sure at all that plants, seaweeds (that produce a good part of the oxygen and recycle CO2 ) and pollinators insects will stand the modification of quantity and quality sunlight caused by a doubly and/or treby of the current traffic’s volume ! |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 02:39
They are. And agree, those pictures are not exactly the best for conveying a message. Even the first one in this thread. I I can only imagine how many contrails are over my town... And how bad are they? There's much better (as in saddening) pictures you can find to scare us man! Those sad polar bears on the small ice block always do it  |
Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 02:59
|
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 04:11
You already wear a chip under the skin? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 06:32
If you care much about far away polar bears than your everyday sky...it probably means that you never watch the sky, maybe you spent too much time in front of a screen to realize what really happens. But know that the melting of ice is GREATLY increased by air traffic excess as the excess moisture make the ice melt much faster then a dryer air... Have a look here if you want polar bears: http://www.planestupid.com/polarbears" rel="nofollow - http://www.planestupid.com/polarbears |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 13:06
I agree. Animals suffering always do it for me... -------------
|
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 10:51
|
Here's my two cents on the subject: Blown way out of proportion. On a global scale it would take a lot more "contrails" to seriously affect anything. Sure, you can make some pretty impressive snapshots of contrails set against a sunset close to a big airport. But that doesn't mean that we're close to extinction. BTW: It's a bit similar with global warming. Mind you, I'm not a global warming denier ... there is something going on, but it remains to be seen whether it's because of us (as a species), or because of other natural causes, or both to a varying degree. To the people living close to the sea and near or even under sea level I would suggest, for various reasons, to relocate. As for the polar bears ... I don't think they'll simply disappear. But even if they do - so have 99.8% of all the species that ever lived. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 11:33
^Good points Mike...  -------------
|
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 17:21
|
^ Good points Mike?? Sounded like ambiguity to me, does not know what causes global warming, no big deal if the polar bear goes extinct, and people should move away from the sea, problem solved, yep |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 18:01
I happen to agree (mostly) with Mike (hey, there's something you don't see everyday). Although, I could be referring to the late Michael Crichton, who say that while global warming may be happening, whether or not man has much to do with it is the big unknown, and to posit that mankind is the big cause of it is really stupid and unfounded. In other words, I'm not going to feel guilty at all if we all die. Earth is bigger than 7 billion people (most of whom exhibit almost zero impact on the environment). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 19:37
| great outlook from a parent of toddlers, global warming is a fact and humans are contributors and there are things individuals can do to mitigate their carbon footprint and impact, nobody needs to feel guilty they need to feel able to do their part to reduce things like pollution, reliance on fossil fuels, walk more, drive less, support green technologies and cut back on consumption, I await your answer on why we should continue to live in destructive ways, I am sure you will have one |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 19:50
Prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have destructive ways. Onus is on you, not me. PS- Guilt tactics (ex. "You don't love your children!") will never ever never ever work on me. So don't waste your time with them. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 20:03
| Really I would not waste my time arguing with you and no onus is on me, I individually do what I can, nobody said you did not love your children or your beer |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 20:07
Of course you don't waste your time (even though you apply your moralistic view upon me and family). And of course the onus is not on you (even though you make a claim without backing it up). "Nobody said I didn't love my children?" Yeah, someone did. His name was David and he was an a****le.
What does this mean then? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 20:15
| my name is not David and my reference was meant as in a world left to our children, never ever did I say you do not love your children, that is not my call to make and from what i know in a limited way from this site I would say you love them very much, you are an intelligent person and if you want the facts on global warming look for them, enough for me, a useless debate i can do w/o |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 20:18
David is the first name of a professor I once had. I find it odd that you consider me intelligent yet write off my remarks about global warming and tell me to "look for" the facts. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 20:28
| The facts are found in everyday life, not at websites, maybe because i have been here for sixty years the changes are more noticeable, having worked in the woods for 35 years in close contact with nature the changes are very apparent, and I do find you to be extremely intelligent which surprises me you can't see the forest for the trees. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 21:08
My everyday life is websites. It's what I do for a living. Stop touting your age. Find some real data. I'm intelligent because I require data before I make a decision about how to live my life. Not some guy's testimony about being 60 and seeing "changes." ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 21:15
| I'll tout whatever i want and you can believe what you want, let your rational mind tell you how to live, do all your thoughts come from what others say on websites, looks like it to me, time will tell |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 21:17
No, time will not tell where my thoughts came from. That's a silly thing to say. Where do your thoughts come from? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 02:16
|
This debate is fantastic. Go on.
Actually it started when Tim made a comment on my latest post. So I should say at least a word. No Tim. I don't know where you get that I like polar bears to go extinct (I love animals) or that people should move away from the seas (though maybe they should because it's too hot and it sucks). I actually believe in global warming. I'm just not sure if there's anything we can do, or if it happening is actually our fault. I'm sure we'll find a way. And I'm quite sure many of the measures proposed don't fix sh*t and cause more problems...
Oh and I'm half as old as you so I guess I'm half as wise. Or is it exponential? Am I twice as half as a 29 year old? 28? Sorry Rob. All the beer in the world won't make you as close to pure wisdom as I am... -------------
|
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 02:42
hehe clever. I agree with Ric. So guess I'm also a government drone eh? In fact not sure how I said that without my chip zapping me for free thought! When it comes to nature, in general, I am a sickeningly big hippie. BUT with some realism. Can't get worked up over everything... This contrail thing is not that big a deal and it is a pretty cool picture. I also find the pictures of the atom bomb clouds strangely beautiful. Guess I wanna nuke the world? |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 04:07
|
this could be a coca cola comercal but it is not such, its something quite different
-------------  
|
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 08:17
Not quite. Sort of, but not quite. We know many factors which contribute, we just don't know for sure whether human CO2 emissions are the decisive one. Jumping to this conclusion without clear evidence is what I object to. http://www.amazon.com/Climate-Extremes-Warming-Science-ebook/dp/B001RNP8B0" rel="nofollow - http://www.amazon.com/Climate-Extremes-Warming-Science-ebook/dp/B001RNP8B0 Excerpt from a review: "The authors classify themselves as believers in man-made contributions to global warming but disbelievers in the climate apocalypse. Rationally speaking, I agree with them. The evidence that there is no reason for hysteria is overwhelming. Pretty much any major consequence of the "apocalypse" is clarified by real numbers in the book and the tricks used by certain people to create a false impression of a problem often become transparent."
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 08:43
| We don't know if we are polluting the planet is such a lame excuse, when will we know? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 08:57
|
This study shows the terrible effect of air traffic on climate (+1C) following the 11 septemeber 2001 traffic's stop in the USA. Considering that the traffic has been almost being X2 since and it's expected to be X3 again, i let you imagine the HUGE rise of temperature that will occur when almost traffic will stop because of oil shortage (if Oil shortage there is).
This is mathematic Just watch the 5 first minutes: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2058273530743771382#%20" rel="nofollow - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2058273530743771382# |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 09:06
And let's not forget that fearmongering is big business. Huge. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |