Djam Karet Fan's Club
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=74641
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Topic: Djam Karet Fan's Club
Posted By: O666
Subject: Djam Karet Fan's Club
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 12:34
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Hi. After these months I joined to PA, I decide to start the "Djam Karet fan's club" topic and I have many good reasons for this. DK is a great band. They have too many albums from 80's to 2010. Many of DK's albums are perfect albums. Their music is very original and creative. I found them "Intellectual" musicians and I can call them "Artist". If you like pure progressive (not Prog Rock) music and if you like serious music, Djam Karet is a good choose for you.
I'm sure there are many DK's fans in PA and I'm waiting for replys from them. Finally I want to say a big thanks to "Moshkito" for introduced DK to me. I invite Moshkito to write about DK in this topic. Thanks and "HAPPY NEW YEAR".
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Replies:
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 13:45
Just noticed this. I am a huge fan of Djam.  I think within the course of year after getting A Night For Baku, I had bought a copy of everything that was available. They are one of those bands that you would not get to enjoy were it not for being able to find them through the internet unless you lived in their area. |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 14:12
| I am a huge fan too. The first album that I listened from them was "A Night for Baku". This albums possessed me. After that I tried to found other albums and information about them. I found 8 albums and I shoked. Each of these albums is great. "New Dark Age I and II (Ascencion)" , "Reflections from the Firepool", " The Ritual Continues", " Recollection Harvest" , "The Devouring", "The heavy soul Sessions" and "A Night for Baku". Believe me they are very perfect and great and I enjoy them. In my opinion DK is a real "Progressive" band. They have several specifications that I like them. Originality with Creativity in Artistic form. Maybe some of prog fans find DK boring but I think you must undrestand them and get the point then you enjoy their music so much. Thanks |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 18:09
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Hi,
Goodness ... I have to find a quick list of their stuff first ... to make sure I say it right.
And thx ... and yes, I am on record as saying that the first 4 albums by this band rival KC many times over ... but I am not sure that we can get people to only listen to their inner feeling, not filter things through some kind of progressive filter ... my biggest regret is that the night before the San Francisco Progressive Music Festival in 1999, this band was playing in a club in the City and I was simply too tired from the long drive down I-5 from Portland to make it ... and see them live. I did meet two of their members at that show and have maintained an occasional email conversation with them.
And my review of "Ukab Maerd" is yet upcoming ... as it is, the best album I have heard in the year 2010 ... so much so that I could not get it off the replay button for about 3 hours! My review is not written yet ... because I still have no words for what I am hearing ... but there is one I can mention ... won't give it away yet! (I'm such a tease!)
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 18:48
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Allrighty, the fan club is now up to three members.
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Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 18:57
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I heard one of their albums once, can't remember what it was called. All I remember was it sorta sounded like 80s Crimson with David Gilmour on guitar instead of Fripp.
Anything you guys would recommend?
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 19:12
There's actually a bit of variety in their catalog, but I have to advocate for A Night For Baku. If metal is more to your tastes, Burning The Hard City. Ambient, you can't go wrong by its companion, Suspension And Displacement. |
zravkapt wrote:Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 19:38
| Yeah, I've heard they have a harder side and a more ambient side. The album I heard was definately on the harder side. They are completely instrumental, correct? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 20:00
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I have a few of their albums. What I heard I liked. In deference to this thread I will listen again to refresh my mnemo core. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 20:17
I am 99% certain. If there is anything vocal, it's not coming to mind at the moment. So what are we up to? Sort of three? |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 21:03
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Hi,
Ok ... here goes, and this is part of the stuff that I am writing on this band for my book.
(Please note that I have cleaned this up since it was first posted, as I thought it was way too bumpy and blurby and needed a little more shampoo!)
Sorry that it is long, but I didn't write this for the Cliff Notes generation, the 3 minute society, or the 1 minute orgasm prog fans! I wrote this as only a heart can in describing something that is so large in an area that we do not have enough of in music, today, an era that is more and more working on killing individuality, and experience, in lieu of a social interest and form!
The list of albums for this band is from Wiki: (I wish that we would do this here for ALL progressive bands so people don't have to go to Wiki for the information!)
No Commercial Potential - 1985
The Ritual Continues - 1987 Kafka's Breakfast - 1988 Reflections From The Firepool - 1989 Suspension & Displacement - 1991 Burning The Hard City - 1991 The Ritual Continues - 1993 Collaborator - 1994 The Devouring - 1997 Still No Commercial Potential - 1998 Live At Orion - 1999 Ascension - 2001 New Dark Age - 2001 A Night for Baku - 2003 Live At NEARfest 2001 - 2004 Recollection Harvest - 2005 The Heavy Soul Sessions - 2010 Of the album list, I do not have "Kafka's Breakfast", "Live at Nearfest 2001" or "The Heavy Soul Sessions".
Collaborator, is a DK album ... but hardly fits this list ... and unlike all the other albums, the experimentations on "Collaborator" are out of this world, and almost none of them venture into the rock idiom. Most of it could/might be considered ambient music for the insanely intelligent that love sitting through this stuff like I do ... to me, this is material that is so visual that sometimes I have no words for it at all ... and this is where "Ukab Maerd" (the new album) also fits.
The main issue I have, for a classification like "progressive", is that it thinks that the music has to conform to a format and have keyboards that do this and bass players that do that and guitar players that do such and such and so forth ... and when you do that, you lose the perspective that is available to you called "individuality", and what it means to be "creative".
In a maniacally, sociological (or psychologial! or even scatalogical - a la Frank Zappa) society, this means that everything has to be defined and that everyone has to fit into the pot and the mix. It's like the Sociology 101 class at the University, where you are told that you fit into one of those groups on the first day of class ... you are after all, nothing but a number in this world!
The problem with a place, or society like that, is that if you have a different t-shirt on, some people are not going to like it ... and you can not succeed when so many people go against it, no matter how hard you try. Some folks have a bigger inner drive and flame and will overcome that ... for most musicians this is extremelly tough, and they do NOT ... they will not be capable of getting past the notes, or find the right soothing chord, or tone ... to simply ... go FEEL each note and let it ride through you and take you for a trip to ...
Most rock music stops at that point.
And gives you lyrics to make you believe that it is what this or that is all about ... but in the end, lyrics are not necessarily the same visual source as the music ... lyrics are idealistic at best (unless you are listening to Peter Hammill!!!) ... although a guitarist and the other folks in the band will color the "highlight" ... how social of them to do so, right? ... and how un-progressive in terms of experimental music and "progressive music", this is ... it is such a formal thing to do in music, after all!
When it comes to the arts and music, what is "different", more often than not, is so, because it needs/wants to make a point. It can also be "different" because it is trying to find something totally separate from everything else that the sociological group tells you that you have to do ... like weird time signatures, ragged guitars, noisy basses, horrible vocalists, lots of effects on the instruments, and of course, the ever present ... gotta have keyboards so you sound like Genesis or ELP to be "progressive".
I don't think that we have to worry about that with this band ... if you are looking for a style, or a band that sounds like ?!?! ... this band is not for you, and neither is the music!
You will never be able to enjoy Djam Karet, if you are going to look at any of those details listed above or are looking for some music to soothe your thirst for another hero. End of story. If you are not afraid of a "space" inside your mind, where you allow the arts and your living to enjoy unfettered freedom, then you have come to the right place. You will still find a Bass Guitar that does some conventional things now and then, and a guitar that sounds familiar now and then, and what not ... but you are also going to find one thing, specially in the earlier albums, that you do not find in a lot of music today ... outright experimentation based on a sound or a feeling ... and at that moment, it is where this band is its most expressive and phenomenal. It is not afraid to just stay on it and see if they can expand that sound and feeling.
In a conversation with Gayle over email he mentioned that KC and Heldon, were their biggest influences. In my book, and I am from Portugal and a part of a literary tradition, this resemblance is ... strange, but in the material that you could say that it sounds like a "jam", you would probably think ... there goes Robert Fripp! ... but honestly? ... I never have! ... I always say ... there goes DK!
The music has moments that are "out there" ... and it could easily be said that Gayle turned on the guitar, added 24 and a half effects and then played 3 notes and then sent them to the sequencer when it came back and then he did something else over it and ... voila ... weirdness ... and a far out sound to have fun with. And then you have 2 choices ... and here is where the good ones get separated from the "progressive" ones ... you create a song around that sound, or you say ... screw it ... and play with the sound for an hour, because that "image" the sound creates is far out and neat -- and worth the experience while on it -- and this to me, is what DK is about.
There is one problem ... which comes from The Goons comedy group ... where do you end that story and when ... unless you unplug everything ... and this is where some of this material sometimes suffers and some bands, where folks have a tendency to find a way to make it sound like a song ... well, convention tells us that it is some sort of end! And that often hurts the "event" ... it's easier to fade out!
Not for me!
The experience continues and I can hear it, and I can dream with it all night long ... and yes, it might be your own fantasy or dreams ... but it's there, and I can not deny its existance within me, any more than I can deny Djam Karet had the guts to do this in music, instead of becoming another "progressive" darling!
On the good side of things, for most listeners, not all the albums are full frontal assaults on your senses and on occasion they break into some really pretty melodic things that got a friend of mine to say one time about one of the pieces ... that's just like Pink Floyd! ... ok, you got me! ... but one song does not a PF wannabe or copy make! ... and it is a massively well done and defined guitar solo that ... sorry Dave ... I like Gayle's style better!
In the end, King Crimson's explorations fit more into the area of "guided meditations" and then cleaning them up with some rehearsal, than they ever did the freedom that Djam Karet shows in some of these pieces ... and even so in the pieces where it appears to be a jam. It maybe similar to the KC style in that they made sure that they knew what the sound/specific/piece was, and then worked to make it better and more enjoyable.
It might be my comparing the theater English style of improvisation (very mental process!) versus the theater American style of improvisation which is less mental and more explosive (The Acting Studio) ... and was a very large and important part of the early psychedelia in California ... you turn on the guitar and see where it takes you ... and that new noise ... far out man ... the main difference meaning that California has always been almost totally "experiential" and no one gave any creedence to that work ... and only a handful of groups survived that stoned free for all ... and made it into the next level.
So, this "process" was wasted, because no one bothered to record it and learn from it, or place any validity or credibility into the work itself ... well, obviously some bands did, but the progressive groups/boards are not willing to consider these important, but they are to me.
And this is where London was smarter, and ... probably more educated when it comes to the arts ... they learned from the experiences and took it further by recording and making sure they were able to gain even more from it ... in California, it was like picking up the girl, and tomorrow she is long gone! You got the dope you got the lay! And a lot of the music went exactly the same way. Gone. The experience? ... gone!
I've scared many friends by saying ... welcome to the church of the electric guitar about Djam Karet, not because it is one of its shining lights, the whole band is, but also because other instruments in the band also go all over the place. In a couple of albums, it becomes an outright jam on a musical theme (or idea -- I'm not one of the musicians) or note or chord ... and to my ear these are not as satisfying as the material that you find in the 3 albums that absolutely show off this band the most for me ... Reflections From The Firepool - 1989 ... Suspension & Displacement - 1991 ... and then Burning The Hard City - 1991.
There is only one other artist that I am aware of, that was not afraid to jam and experiment. And not too surprisingly, he is also from the same area as this group ... and his name is everywhere, although most fans do not exactly care for his compositional and organizational side of the music that he created -- they would rather concern themselves with the guitar hero thing! -- and his name was Frank Zappa.
The work that Djam Karet does, is not Frank Zappa, it is its own. But the ability to play and learn and specially "flow" on the music, is second to none, so you can see my surprise when these guys said that Richard Pinhas and Robert Fripp/King Crimson were inspirations ... I would say Robert Fripp a lot more than King Crimson myself ... but what the heck ... I'm ok with that. Pinhas' experiments were a lot less thought out, as the French have a way of just saying who cares, when it comes to experiments in music and let it all hang out. Their experimental jazz and other musics in that country are always unique and almost completely off the wall. I never thought of Richard Pinhas, specially Heldon, as a "composed" piece ... specially when none of them appear to be preconceived or pre-set ... and to me, the real greatness is when you can do that on the log house, or bedroom, and then you can translate it to a stage. And they have. And the other monster musician that also did this? ... correct .. Frank Zappa.
And this feeling of experience, Djam Karet has done, and to me, this is important and valuable as a group, that makes a difference in music, and is as true to the spirit of the term and what eventually became known as "progressive" ... and my favorite reason of all ... no two albums are the same ... and it's almost like a kid's secret ... give me more weirdness ... it's how much fun, nice and enjoyable this stuff is ... you just let the muse take you away ... and enjoy the trip ... and in the end, you will find that this is what all literature, art, painting, has always hoped to do ... and it is done, right here, and sometimes so clear and bright, that we can't even see it!
Their middle period is a bit more rock oriented, and while I like listening to it, I think of it as a bit more "conventional" compared to the other material they have, and while not inferior, I do not have the visions and trips that the other material gives me ... still nice, mind you, but it is not the same thing. And, I have to admit that it is still nice, although on one example, it did feel strictly like a garage jam trying to find out if we're going to be able to get something out of this or not ... and in general, I don't have a problem with these things, except one ... you can't really search for it on the notes alone ... it's the "sound" and the "feel" that give you something, and that is the only secret in music in my book.
And what's funny is that they had done this before and still have it, but I suppose that all of us have some dry periods that we have to figure it all out ... only to find later that we can do it again ... and BETTER! And such is the case of Ukab Maerd! Though for me, you can play Dark Clouds, No Rain all night, and I will write an endless poem! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 21:27
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You have all that I do. I also have an old live VHS that deteriorated after the first play. I think I bought the last copy they had for sale. If any of you DK guys read this, please release on DVD. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 21:30
I think that more folks in PA and some progressive areas know this band than in LA proper! ... LA usually doesn;t know any bands unless they sell a million so that 3 major stations all go gagagoogoo over it ... it's all a part of tht "star" syndromme.
I'm not sure that an experimental band can live off its work on its own in California ... period ... too many "big name" bands are stealing that priviledge from other deserving bands. And California is still mean ... remember that even Frank Zappa had to fight for his rights, and in the end, the family is still not getting enough from the work to even be considered "major" artist ... why? ... it's private, not a commercial product! And California has killed small/private/personal/local business in every way possible for the last 40 years! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 21:40
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I really like The Devouring. This little oddity ain't half bad either...  ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 21:51
It's so nice that there is still rare stuff available if you get hooked. I've got an autographed copy of No Commercial Potential. Even more interesting is a Dali tribute album they are on:  I actually had these guys in my collection without being totally aware of it for several years before I discovered them.  I got a copy of No Commercial Potential and then noticed this in the booklet art. My big discovery of the band came from AOL radio and once I heard Baku... |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 21:58
Wow, that Dali thing does look interesting......
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 22:00
Musically speaking it isn't amongst the most interesting DK. I'd recommend it only if you like and are familiar with some of the other artists. Or just an extreme DK fan. Which reminds me. There is something I need to attend to this coming weekend: http://www.high.org/dali/index.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.high.org/dali/index.html ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 06:47
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I did some research and it turns out The Devouring was the album I heard. Is that representative of their heavier sound?
I apologize for not being able to be a member of the fan club, but at least my posts are on-topic!
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Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 07:05
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You can count on me! But don't add me to the inner circle of this exquisite club please. Can't undertake new tasks to whatever extent. 'Live At Orion' is great ... I've just noticed that I missed to write a review. oh, and their current album 'The Heavy Soul Sessions' .. . still can't make friends with it .. takes some time I'm sure 
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 07:15
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In terms of heaviness, The Devouring isn't the heaviest but does fairly represent the band's sound.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 09:03
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I would like to know more about them as they sound like an interesting band. ------------- 
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 15:01
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Hi,
Atomic ... this is one of those bands that you come to them ... with no expectations ... and my suggestion is, specially the older stuff, to just close your eyes and let the music fly by you ... and don't stop it ... let it run its course.
The best bands, will have you salivating for more! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 16:43
Due to the miracle of random selection that one is in my carrying case at the moment.
I'd be surprised if you don't like them. One of my favorite discoveries just before I found this site. Nowadays every new artist I get into comes from this site. And of course they have a site: http://djamkaret.com/" rel="nofollow - http://djamkaret.com/ I didn't realize they had a new one out. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 03:54
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Thanks for the link! Thanks moshkito and Slartibartfast. -------------
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 04:07
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I am on the website - what album would you recommend as a starting point.? -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:05
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Reflections From The Firepool, New Dark Age, The Devouring, and A Night For Baku are my favorites. If you want to start off with something really heavy, Burning The Hard City. Really mellow, Ascension. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:07
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Listened to The Devouring again. Very Good. Enjoyed it a lot. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:46
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Dunno if I count as a fan but I have quite a couple of their albums (listed below) and it's all 3 or 4 star stuff. I may be a bit atypical in preferring their Suspension & Displacement album and not liking Devouring enough. Reflections From The Firepool - 1989 Burning The Hard City - 1991 Suspension & Displacement - 1991 The Devouring - 1997 Ascension - 2001 New Dark Age - 2001 A Night for Baku - 2003 Recollection Harvest - 2005 |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:52
-------------
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: January 07 2011 at 11:26
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Thank you moshkito for your work and time. Perfect write and good information. Your long write is very useful and complete. Thank you Slartibartfast for your help and your time. I hope to see many other DK's fans in this thread. DK's music is very artistic and complex. You cant find them with 1 or 2 albums and 1 or 2 time listening to them. Their music is stylish but you can find many experimental moments in their music. Intresting and great band. Thanks. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 07 2011 at 17:57
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I think there's a lot of people who haven't tried them and should. Hopefully we can snag some new fans and hear from more old ones.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: January 07 2011 at 18:48
Yeah, that's me I can only recommend to check this band  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: January 09 2011 at 14:17
| Nice picture. Matbe this kind of introducing(!) work beter than talking. I hope DK's fans come in to increase replys! If this thread go to page 2 or 3 , I think, its never come to page 1 again! |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 10 2011 at 00:19
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Wait until you get to "Suspension and Replacement" and that era ... that album is nice, but already polished and (for my ear) not as experimental and free form as some of the things they did earlier ... still good, mind you ... but by the time you hear things like "Dark Clouds, No Rain" ... then you know why I say that Walter really needs to spend some time on this stuff. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: January 12 2011 at 06:06
| I got " Burning the Hard City" last night and listened to it over 5 times. WOW. very great album in DK's style. After "Heavy soul...." ,this one shoked me more than others. I think you must listen to DK's album over 3 times to get what they play. Thanks. |
Posted By: Siloportem
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 02:20
| All right, sign me up. So far I'm liking: night for baku, burning the hard city and suspension & displacement |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 20:47
Don't worry ... it's a great start ... just remember ... no preconceived notions ... just empty your mind ... and enjoy it ...
Please don't call me the guru of something or other ... is all I ask!  ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Siloportem
Date Posted: January 18 2011 at 14:47
But, sir. You talk like a guru. In riddles. To be honest I've already decided that I like them so much that I want it all. Which got me a signed copy of the heavy soul sessions, nice! ------------- Thanks !! Your topics always so good and informative. I like you talk. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 18 2011 at 18:44
If you've seen a few of his posts you'd be used to it.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 19 2011 at 19:04
I am a guru or sorts, internally and to myself. I am very spiritual inside, and if you take a look at the posts I have and how I discuss things, you will find that, I tend to go in for a lot of the (more) introspective music there is, and sometimes this means ... NO LYRICS ... why? ... because sometimes we think that we have to say something in order to tell someone something ... and we don't ... you can just paint, you can play, you can write ... and nothing else needs to be said.
Yes, I can see where someone might think I talk in riddles ... I'm the worst riddler there is! ... who the heck are you kidding ... a joke here by me is like a hundred bricks hitting your car on the road ... everyone will comment and say something!
The issue is, I'm a writer. I'm an artist. I (think that I) understand where some creative people come from, and it is not from places where we (the fans) decide what is right or wrong ... specially when it was done at a time when we were all reacting against the establishment, that helped define what became known as "progressive".
Another issue, is that boards like this, are afraid to get academic with their discussion and study of the art and the work ... otherwise this music would be respected by now because together we can make this work, but being idiots, we're just fans and nobodies ... that just buy the music like everyone else.
It's what happens when you are a part of a really high literary family ... and you meet some of those names ... you know something about them ... that is so simple, that it is almost stupid that we don't get it, and instead continue to suck up to a socialistic commercial system ... that is nowhere close to what "progressive" means at all, and really has no idea what the term, or concept even means! ... it doesn't sell, or show itself as number one and will never be on American Idol! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: January 20 2011 at 05:11
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100% agree with you Moshkito and I think commercial system forced musicians to changing their direction. There are too many samples that show this process. I think ELP is one of the commercial system victims. The start very good and they had potential to reach to pure "Progressive" music (IMO) but you saw what happened in "Love Beach". I'm not a Progressive music specialist and I judge with my feelings but I think the story of ELP is very tragic. Now one question : How can Bands like DK to relesed too many albums? Who support them ? You can see in PA, They haven't too many fans in this Prog site.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 20 2011 at 07:28
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I know the Muffins had to quit for a long while so they could make a living. I think I read somewhere they have other jobs. Also they are on the Cuneform Label now, which re-released their back catalog.doesn't take the cut that a major label does. I also think they started out and through most of the '90's were putting out their stuff independently.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Siloportem
Date Posted: January 20 2011 at 16:33
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Moshkito, you're taking me way too seriously. I guess I'm just a fan too. Although I do consider (some) music to be art, I still listen to it for entertainment not for the intellectual stimulation. Not knowing any music theory doesn't help either (tried studying it once and it made too little sense to me). I guess most people treat it like entertainment. But to compare it to other forms of art. How many people are capable of appreciating a painting by Picasso (to name one) at a high level? Ofcourse, that kind of art was never "commercialized"for the masses. As far as I know there's no painter's equivalent of lady Gaga and if there's I'd like to see it.I guess most music is the equivalent of paintings in hotel rooms. Slarti. I recently read an interview with Amplifier. A band who "emancipated" and took everything in their own hands. The guy said he never made as much money as he was now while under the wings of a record company. I think Djam Karet is doing that too. So it must even out, they may not sell very much. But they do make more money because there's less overhead. ------------- Thanks !! Your topics always so good and informative. I like you talk. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 20 2011 at 17:16
You'll have to ask Gayle and the band about that.
But in general they all have day jobs and at least 2 of them do some music work in movies and other things. One of them is a part of a major record company I think, and so forth. It could be said that the project was/is a love thing and nothing else, but in the end, the history of their work deserves more, and they seem to do just fine, and not as concerned with having to become a big name band in the conventional schooling and design for most rock bands trying to "make it".
You either do something because you love it, or you do it because you are after something else ... and the part of "loving it"many times has nothing to do with anything else, except your discovery and ability to live through it and sustain it.
And DK has done that exceedingly well. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 20:02
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I should have a review up for The Heavy Soul Sessions next week. I'm a big fan as well guys. Still No Commercial Potential is probably my favourite but i enjoy them all. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 20:16
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Just thought i would mention the song "The Shattering Sky" which is on the "After The Storm" benefit cd for victims of Hurrican Katrina. Anyway just about every song on this double cd release was previously unreleased but i noticed the one KRAAN gave showed up on a later cd so...
Anyway this DJAM KARET track sounds like TANGERINE DREAM for the first half then drums and fat bass lines join in and then it turns heavier as the electronic beat gets pushed to the background.Guitar comes in late.Cool tune. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 10:50
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I think each of Artists or Art fans pay for their LOVEs but "LOVE" may have different means. In some cultures LOVE is a dirty word!!!! Unfortunately this point of view exist in some countries and Artists of these countries may be under pressure. In free world or free countries Artists forced by "Commercial" system and they under pressure too.
I think "Real Artists" have many troubles around the world and they must challenge against Commercial system or fanatic system! or these kind of systems!! I respect to these Artists and I try to promote them in different ways. One of these ways is "Introducing" with talking about them.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 16:00
I don't know ... I am not sure that not a single person in this board never heard or seen a picture by Picasso ... the problem would be someone trying to extend their imagination to see my comparison!
Music comparisons, do not have to be "literal" to be helpful. I don't know music theory much either, and I don't need it, or want it, yet I can play an instrument some and have a good feel when I am with others even if they are playing heavens knows what ... I always have an intuitive way of adding something that never gets used, but is different ... and is not out of place ... though the person that created the original would likely not have seen that, or been able to do anything with it.
Music theory, even by definition is AFTER the music ... NOT before ... and this is the difficult thing when trying to define "progressive" music and its variants. What was there in the early days was beyond music theory at that time, including classical music, in the sense that it was bending and shaping things really well, and the musical talent was far superior than just about anyone that was showing up on your school campus playing some classical gas! ... and this is also a major issue on academic courses in composition where students are usually measured according to the universal standards, not their creativity, force, or content ... meaning that the person grading the music, can not "see it" by visualizing it ... he is merely playing notes in their head and trying to see them matching to each other! The experience lacks the continuity to make the leggos come alive sometimes and I am not sure that most movie minds can addup that many leggos!
America is way too commercialized because it does not have an "art history" to live by. It has picked up a literary history, but you would be really hard pressed to list composers and painters in the same vein. Europe, by comparison, has a massive history of all three and that makes it much easier to appreciate a lot of different and new things and give someone more credit for their work, than it is done in America. The best history in America? ...it's movies, not the arts! It's the stars, not even the movies!
Because DK does not tour and do concerts all the time, it is easy to say that they don't gain from it as much, but I think they are just fine ... and I like the idea that they do not feel like they have to play up to someone's standard and simply do what they want to when they do ... and to me, that is wonderful and very valuable. There is a lot to learn from that, much more valuable than the commercial lesson! It's the art that makes it ... not the money or the sales!
I really think, in the end, that you have to do what your heart wants to do, and that the money is not the only thing that matters ... or you will not become the person that you can or artist ... but I am not sure that most artists themselves are capable of saying or thinking that ... because you know they will say ... yeah ... but where do I live so I can do my work? ... it's always an issue, and some has to come back to you. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 31 2011 at 18:49
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Hi,
Was just listening to some DK on the way to work and the dentist ... yeah ... perfect music to get me in the mood!!!! ... and one thought I had that I think was important ... DK doesn't break into blues chords or jazz chords ... it's just "there" ... and in many ways, when someone says that this sone or that song reminds me of PF ... I can see now that Gilmour is into blues really heavy ... DK is not! And in this sense, DK is way more progressive than Pink Floyd is ... massive difference. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 31 2011 at 21:29
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Is Djam Karet a proper musical choice for going to the dentist's office? The band name means the hour that stretches. Though, come to think of it, I'd rather be listening to some nice music while they torture my teeth.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: February 01 2011 at 09:40
| Moshkito explain DK's attitude as mine. Maybe this "Bluesless" or "Jazzless" music seem boring for some listeners. Many of Serious Prog bands use "Jazz" structure in their music. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 02 2011 at 16:34
On a Saturday, with no one else in the office if your dentist enjoys great music!
My dentist (Keith Collins) ... you can catch him on the net and all that ... and I can tell you that one Saturday morning 25 years ago, he came in, we put on Tangerine Dream, I was gas'd and novocained, and he did the drilling ... and in the end, he said ... that was far out ... really different. He's getting a pretty good name for his bass playing these days with Tom Grant and some others ... and he took lessons from Glen Moore (Oregon!) more than a few times.
Funny story ... so 30 years ago I gave him tapes with Gismonti and Nana Vasconcellos on it ... a month ago he told me a story about going to Brazil and Argentina, and his adventures playing ... he said that he had always been currious about Brazilian music and the different rhythms and wanted to play more with it. .... and the best one yet ... I remember him 15 years ago telling me that he was scared to even try a 5 string bass!
Yeah ...
Depends on your dentist, but I'm not sure that all of them are into music as seriously as Keith is ... and Keith is a kid in a candy store when it comes to talking about music ... so he just met Carla Bley, and I blew him away with a Canterbury listing ... and he didn't even know the NY/Canterbury thing ... you should see him light up!
Last one .... he was drilling a tooth once, and I stopped him ... and told him ... "that's not a bass drum" ... and he's been the best ever since ... and I'm sure that he has the same feel with his customers! You can always tell a good musician .. he has an ear! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 02 2011 at 16:36
(Sorry .. it's impossible to do this in 3 sentences ... so with that said ... )
In general, the majority of music that we listen to is formula based. To my ear, some of it is boringly so!
It has a beginning, middle and then an end. That is a formula, or a design for a piece for many things, including music.
How it manifasts in music is easy ... Let's say this is an example ... theme A, theme B and then Theme C, which more often than not is a variation on Theme A. For several hundred years this has been called (I'm not a music major ... please ... and the wording could be incorrect!) a "sonata" ... and basically the majority of rock'n'roll is centered on a "sonata" process. Thus you can see why I do not consider a lot of "classic" "progressive" bands, important or major ... because their basic format for their work was ... ??? ... you got it ... been there, done that, old school! ... and therefore, in my book, it does NOT fit into the "progressive" grouping at all.
The basic "rock" and "blues" structures, are almost all variants on the same thing and on occasion you find a Jean-Luc Godard fan in the middle ... that is, the school that say that there is a beginning, middle and an end, NOT NECESSARILY in that order -- which is interesting to say the least.
A lot of jazz music, and this is according to "Bass Player" Magazine, is centered on point/counterpoint in music, that is "contrasts" of various details in the music, be they chords or notes. However, in a way, even with Miles Davis, they still had a basic/main theme, that all of them were supposed to meet back up at and end things. So, guess what ... it's a formula of sorts. Most conventional jazz is based on a perception that you have to know the notes, chords, the scales and so on, so you know which ones to go up on and which ones to go down on, so you can stay together ... again, you can see that is a "formula" based on music designs already used. The other one, which was a bizarre suggestion by that same magazine is that jazz "tends to use a lot more minor chords" ... which was the single stupidest thing I have ever heard said about music, or any kind!
Speed things up in time and ... let's look at krautrock and what became kosmiche musik ... the basic idea from Berlin's Schools of Music was ... to not use any musical concepts that were based on Anglo-American music, which are/were (still) the best known around the world because of the commercial distribution. ... and you can see that you already have 3 or 4 basic ideas ... and now ... we want to create music with none of those ideas.
More ... it has been said that all or rock music is based on "melody". And that all of jazz music is NOT supposed to be based on melody, but what should/could be called "anti-melody". Well, the European jazz scene ate this up and threw it up on the same breath and decided that was not a good definition for jazz and did their own thing. So you can listen to Keith Jarrett on the Koln Concert ... and go ... wow ... that's jazz ... wait a minute ... that can't be rock ... what? ... what the heck is it? ... and the definition of concentional jazz, gets thrown for a loop ... it's fabulous music, that might ... MIGHT ... have a slight connection to jazz, and Keith is well versed and educated enough in music that he probably can play with that in his head and his sleep ... but wait a minute ... how can someone just play like that ... and keep track of notes and chords? ... you can't!
So, let's try this again ... it means ... you don't setup a solo. You don't setup a moment in the music. You don't use "bridges" or "verses" in order to transition the music from this place to the other ... you play ... and what comes ... comes ... and goes ... that's it.
Now you stop ... then what is the music about?
Well, for me, it is this ... you close your eyes, and fly ... and in that flight there is a massive movie and a story that th emusic gives you, and it doesn't need a lyricist to tell you, or hold your hand so you know that this song is about some sh*t or other! And this is where the European style of using the voice as an instrument is important ... oooppps another concept ... a singer telling you what this is all about? ... wow ... what a concept ... yeah! ... and you can get it in AD2's Yeti and Dance of the Lemmings almost non-stop in Renate's voice. And I think that it was merely intuitive, and not quite intentional ... which adds something else to the music that we haven't discussed yet. Or Can ... in Future Days or Soon Over Babbalooma ... check out the wonderful music transitions in the long cuts, totally seamless and smooth and so very pretty ... a total continuation of the music in a way that allows for the "movie" or "tripp" to continue and not get slowed down or lost, by a music change ... the flow continues quietly, softly and smoothly.
Now, when you go back to some of the list in "progressive" top of the pops, you will find that a lot of things ... are really boring and actually very repetitive and not very original when it comes down to it ... but we like them!
My favorite part of DK, is that ... the music just keeps going, and I want more when the pieces end (notice I did not call them "songs" ... because they AREN'T! format wise!) on the way to paradise ... and you go ... more ... more ... more ... and it may be there or not, but it doesn't exactly create an ending setup or format, like most rock bands do, so you know when to applaud! ... and guess what ... that would suggest that most "progressive" music is not designed for an audience and it's rock'n'roll proclivities! Or idiocies!
Now comes the hard part. Free form expression or weirdness or ... who knows?
There is a point in music, where someone has to let go, so they can find out what is "on the other side" ... and some people are very good at imaging what was on that other side, and writing about it, and creating music and works off it. Others have to tape it and then figure out how to get back to it, and hope for the best.
Improvisation is, usually, and by definition, not something that you can, or should define, or decide what should be done with it. However, when you see what theater groups do with improvisation, you can see the massive benefits this has on music. You can setup a starting point, and an ending point ... but what the heck are you gonna do the 2nd hour ... how about the 3rd hour? ... yeah ... try this in acting with 10 people in a room, "locked up" and they each have to select a "character" and that is your character for the whole afternoon ... and then ... you lock them all up for 3 hours ... in the 1st hour the "games" and interplay slow down. In the 2nd hour the freaking out starts ... what do I do next ... in the 3rd hour ... if you have tuned to something, it flies and shines ... if you're still searching, you're done with the character and performance. You can't improvise!
The "anti-music" group, that came with "anti-film" (10 years before), "anti-theater" (about the same) and "anti-literature" (almost 20 years old by then) ... was a strange bunch. One thing they had in common was weirdness, and in theater you even had Ionesco making fun of firemen on a stage with ... whatever in their hands, and what not ... and music was not immune to that kind of thing, and sometimes, when you hear "Art Bears" or "Faust" in the really early days ... this is what you are hearing ... total free form and let go. The great side of that is that once in a while that crazyness tells a neat story on its own that you could not have imagined. The bad side? ... what the heck am I gonna do with all that? ... and if someone is a "notes" musician, or a "chord" musician, or a "classical" musician, they will not exactly be able to gain anything from this exercise ... because it scrambles the sequencing of the notes that they have been taught, are "right" and "proper" and considered "correct" based on the history of music and how many times it has been used and so forth.
There is another school ... so Peter Brook took his actors out to the Greyhound Bus Depot in London, and his Edmond was to turn around and piss on his brother's pants next to him in the other urinal ... that's the attitude you take with these lines for this whole act in this Shakespeare play ... no one is questioning Peter Brook's King Lear or any other Shakespeare work and his unbelievable scholarly works and writings on directing ... but it tells you that you can take an attitude and do something with it ... now, you can't exactly piss with a guitar, but you can a good FU with it (a la 10CC -- Sheet Music -- of course) as an example, and you can, all of a sudden do something distinctive and different that has nothing to do with notes or music itself ... has to do with your inner feel and your expression. The other school is the Marat/Sade school of destruction in the name of "education" and "social something or other" as exemplified by Pete Townsend ... it's an expression, and has nothing to do with music, but it adds something to the music that ... we had not expected, that sooner or later becomes a part of something else. I have always called the results of that (for Pete and The Who), is called "Who Are You" ... the whole album! Aptly titled as well and amazingly so!
And then, there is the last school of it all ... the one that drives you nuts ... and I call it the Andy Warhol school of ... nothing ... you turn on the camera, and you film those two people sleeping for 3 hours ... no kidding! ... or if you are bored, you show me a Campbell Soup can and hope that it makes you hungry (makes me want to throw up!), or if you are really bored, let's do dearest marilyn in 20 colors.
Some of it is good. Some of it is weird. Some of it takes a group somewhere else.
Pink Floyd was massive with sound effects, even if it was because they had to setup the effects between their pieces and sets, but many of them were quite long, according to the bootlegs ... and eventually they do 2 massive pieces that are chock full of effects ... you learn as you grow ... if you are not an idiot and get stuck on the fame!
DK, does what appears to be a lot of experimenting ... and it is not the KC style of experimenting.
KC's experiments, for me, are like this. ... I found this sound, and let's see if we can do something with it. And 35 minutes into playing around, lo and behold we found something ... it's the same in his solo projects these days, and sometimes things click and he has something on top of everything else, and it is nice ... sometimes not as nice, but no less interesting. The hard part? ... it's different each and every time, and you might not be able to get back to that exact second or sound. However, after the first several albums, a lot of KC's music DID become a bit more ... "designed", so they could start it and end it. And by the time you add lyrics ... guess what ... you have a song ... not a free form piece. But Robert Fripp, by himself, is one of the best experimenters around ... and his work with Eno is legendary and is the work I love the most and enjoy the most. I love KC's first album, but dislike the gross mismanagement and conceptual nature that makes it the progressive album of all time, and the total disregard for the lyrics as poetry instead of rock music lyrics -- which is the worst falacy of the definition of "progressive" ... it's just rock'n'roll and like the other post ... I like it ... in other words, who gives a sh*t about the music and it all?
You either paint the picture of your experiment, and you might have a Guernica, or a Miro, or a Dali ... and that's that ... but to sit here and try to duplicate the same thing over and over again ... is boring, and no one has done it yet!
Hope this helps ... it's a big topic ... and very tough to discuss in an area like this and I can see/hear one or two people criticize it for its length, and it being totally ignored for its contents!
That's the part that hurts the most ... for art without a soul, is nothing ... and sometimes I want to call it ... just another religion! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 07 2011 at 15:52
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Hi,
Such a bummer ...
I worked long and hard to write all this ... and to be able to have some words for the things that I knew and saw, and understood ... and not a single comment.
I know we all see totally different things. But I also know that I am a writer, and learned over 30 years ago that poetry is only poetry when it's free ... it might have a rhyme, but that is not what makes it "poetry" ... what makes it fly, live, die and love ... IS what is called poetry ... and I work hard at studying those things in many forms of the arts ... and the best for these was always the movies -- if you had the stomach to watch a Godard and many other strangers -- and the next one? ... yeah ... since the late 60's there is no better bunch of artists that have blown away the Doors of Perception ... than musicians ... and this is the reason why things like DK ... are so important to me ...
It makes me tear my eyes, having to write this ... and hopefully I am not making you all feel self-conscious.
The only true art, the only pure art ... is the one you have never seen, the one you never heard, the one you never read ... the rest? ... not worth the time or place.
Think about it! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 07 2011 at 18:13
We need more people in our cult. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 08 2011 at 14:26
Did you like that line? ... I have to admit I stared at it for 5 minutes after I posted this ... it's so true ... many of us can link Naked Lunch, and other books, but there is no literary criticism or studies that link it to the time, the place, or literary exploration, like there was in Europe from the 30's on (Surrealists on), which has been well annotated and discussed in many places ... and in the end, the American Literature gets reduced to pulp and crap.
No one is linkink, Kerouac, Casey, Burroughs, Bach, and so many others, as they should, and show that the music scene is not an accident ... and these were very well connected here in the West Coast and there is no real secret in the East Coast as many folks used their work, from Lou Reed to Laurie Anderson ... but somehow, too much of that stuff is just totally ignored and not considered "progressive" or a part of the whole art scene ... and SF had a massive arts scene that went on to help many a magazine and science fiction work.
I think it's what happens when you just get the 3 minute song at iTunes, and you know nothing about the band or the work ... just the song you like ... and this distorts the artistry really bad, and it makes it clear why Pink Floyd is having issues ... they do not want their albums broken up into "songs" because it dimishes that artistry of the whole thing. I support that wholeheartedly. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 08 2011 at 17:49
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Sure that was a good line. I've never read the Naked Lunch book, but the movie is really good. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 04:34
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 15:09
There is nothing to understand ... the whole generation has grown up to see and think that where quantity is, the important stuff is ... and thus you have that kind of thing.
The next "revolution" is going to be "anti-advertising" and control ... and you wait to see the viciousness on it ... it's not going to be nice ... but people really need to stop being "controlled" like that ... and it still is my theory that the government wants people to "have fun" and "entertain" themselves ... (old Reagan ploy!) ... it means that no one cares what else they do! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 16:17
The book is better.
You might also read "Steppenwolf" (Hesse) as it was also a big one at the time, and few people ever understood, or figured out what "the magic theater" was really all about ... let me tell you that it was not about a "definition of progressive, or prog" ... it was very real!
But you want to take a short cut here and slowly go back and combine film, some theater and literature and we can throw in a couple of artists, Dali and Picasso being the best known ... people that really busted out the art world with their work, because it was far out, explosive and way out there ... the comparable artist in music would be Stravinsky. In theater there are many in England, France and America. In literature, the numbers are endless, and you have to make a slight U turn here and there so you can see the influences.
I always thought that Sartre/Camus (what's her name from the Bell Jar and others) were the folks that helped the "revolution" and the "hippie" days get started ... their disatisfaction with the status quo was massive ... and then things got a bit harsher, or darker, and you can read Burroughs, Kerouac, Casey, Ginsburg ... and then ... TV blew up the VietNam Was and the Irish conflict with more bombs than the reality ... so the disatisfaction, all of a sudden is wide open and everyone gets into it.
Today, with the media pulling a massive bunch of mis-information and signs to nowhere, it is really difficult for most people to know who they are and what they stand for, except their favorites ... and that is like me telling you ... I like chocolate ... and you say you like Strawberries! That's not art ... that's just yapping at the bar.
Might want to check a primer on an Encyclopedia on the basic theater, film, art and literature for these things in the 20th century ... it is really good primer, and the "progressive" scene makes a lot more sense than what we have made of it ... some music non-sense ... as if it didn't happen in other music's!
The main issue, and some will probably call me stuck up because of it, is that not enough people are educated enough, and aware of the arts to make that connection ... when all you know is American Idol ... all this means nothing to anyone, even a Slumbering Progressive God. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 28 2011 at 17:15
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Hi,
I guess that Gayle has read this thread ... and he had a funny comment to me on an email ... they don't do the Sonnata format ... (A..B..A) ... they do A .. B.. C .. D .. E .. F .. G ... and so on ... and I have to admit that I really enjoyed that a lot Gayle ... thanks for the wonderful email. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 29 2011 at 18:21
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Haven't seen you around these parts in while dude. Well, your post prompted me to visit their site and now I have three CDs on the way. Have you heard Herd Of Instinct yet? I tried just one sample and had to get a copy. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 29 2011 at 20:04
Gayle thanked me heartily for the nice words ... I can't say enough about the music! Words ... not even enough, for me to say what I want to say!
He sent me "The Heavy Soul Sessions" and I have not taken that off the player yet to listen to the other one ... so ... we'll have to wait a little longer and I still have not written the review for "Ukab Maerd" ... trying to find words to describe that album.
I haven't been in these parts because I got tired of dealing with a few of the trolls in this board that call themselves reviewers. So I just post on one or two threads and that's it. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 29 2011 at 20:32
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Yeah some people on here can be downright rude. Have you tried jazzmusicarchives yet?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 31 2011 at 16:04
Been a Djam-fan since...1991, more or less? Whenever they issued Burning The Hard City. Now that was a pivotal album for me that year! Speaking of Ukab Maerd, I'll be spinning The Waiting Room once I've completed my trifecta of [TD's] Phaeda-Rubycon-Stratosfear. Of course, DK are fans of TD, Steve Roach, etc. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 31 2011 at 16:56
I wish I had known about them back then but they passed me by except for being on one track of a Salvador Dali tribute album along with Roach and Schulze and others. It wasn't until 2004 that I got into the band proper. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 01 2011 at 15:31
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Dali: The Endless Enigma is a classic! ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 03 2011 at 16:28
Tried it a couple of times. Not impressed. MOS as is said in radio! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 15 2013 at 14:07
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Hi, Thought I would alert you folks that posted here, that this band has a new album. And I think it is worth getting. I have reviewed it and it is posted with the band information on this website. http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=83#reviews" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=83#reviews Thank you Gayle for the wonderful compliment about my review.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: May 15 2013 at 14:24
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That's good to hear. I've just recently been listening again to the albums I have. Despite the fact that it's an atypical album for them, "Suspension and Displacement" is still one of my favorite ambient albums. Also been enjoying "Reflections", "Burning", and "Devouring".
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: May 17 2013 at 08:05
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Just noticed this thread now and see that I missed it starting up a couple years ago! Anyway, I first heard them back in '98 or '99, a friends copy of Burning The Hard City. I borrowed that and Suspension and Displacement from him and loved both albums. Oddly enough, I only started buying their albums with The Devouring, and I've gotten all as they were released since then.........however, I notice I'm now 3 albums behind  I was fortunate to see them perform at Nearfest 2001. A really great show, though I wouldn't have minded if they had had a bit more time to play (I think they got about an hour, maybe an hour and a half? can't recall now). Someone else mentioned Ascension, and I remember it was available only at Nearfest in limited quantities (don't know if it is more widely available now) and I made sure to get a copy of that along with The Devouring. Ascension is still one of my favorites by the band, one of those somewhat obscure little gems that doesn't get mentioned usually when this band is discussed.In any case, great band, great instrumental music. I need to get their albums before Devouring as I haven't heard them in ages and would love to again (I borrowed all of them from a friend.......only one I haven't heard is No Commercial Potential and Still No Commercial Potential.........and the last 3 releases, as noted). Moshkito, enjoyed reading your posts. I usually do, though you seem to create controversy for some reason, I would guess because you are not always clear to some people and seem to veer "off topic". Personally, this doesn't bother me at all, and I find most of your posts very interesting. Music IS art, at least at its best anyway. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: May 17 2013 at 13:33
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Btw, Ascension was an extremely limited pressing, so if you're one of the lucky ones to have it, give yourself a hi-5! ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: May 17 2013 at 14:56
That's what I thought! Also the reason I got it at the time, as I think it was only $10 (maybe less?) when I also bought their latest with it, which was New Dark Age. In any case, I love it. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 17 2013 at 19:10
Check out my review of the 2nd CD! Ohhh yeah! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 17 2013 at 19:17
Thank you. Art is about displacing people's comfort zones ... and there are times, that even I do not care for some of the work, as it seems to be shock for shock's sakes, but music, these days is stuck in a sort of "public/entertainment" kind of thing (my words) and it's hard to get people to listen to something different ... that is not what they are used to day in and day out ... or as an old friend said once, after 3 minutes ... where's the lyrics? It's not better to "be told" what it is all about ... we're all people and have our own ideas and thoughts, and to me, that's important. I wish I knew how to be "simpler" ... it is what it is and what comes out and sometimes even the wording is difficult for me. I'm a mix of three very different cultures, and because I had these changes, the "home culture" does not control me (for lack of better words) when it comes to tastes in the arts ... I've seen more, and different, and sometimes it does not mean that this or that is better ... it's just different, and this has been my point about "progressive" music, the definition of which is highly xenophobic and could even be considered to be ethnocentric ... like it didn't happen anywhere else, and we know that it did!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 18 2013 at 16:07
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Don't stop Moshikito, I love your style. Weird and eloquent.
You should work harder at being purple and clairvoyant. Just don't go into the closet and suck eggs. Just saying my friend ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 19 2013 at 11:57
Hahahaha
I don't do it on purpose at all ... I'm merely following my inner movie when I am writing, as for me, words are not invisible, or imaginary ideas ... they are all "realities". I can't separate an idea/philosophy from the person ... what would be the point? Idealism? Selfishness? Egoism? Stupidity? ... and this is the part that sometimes is strange to me ... am I being off-kilter and not clear, or is someone just not bothering to read it at all? ... well, you can tell by the answers! I, pretty much, live my ideas ... the only bad one being that sometimes I'm too damn blind to even do some dusting around my place! I need a maid! Just saying ....
 ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: May 20 2013 at 10:43
I didn't think you did it deliberately (though some on this site obviously do). Do your own thing and others will like it or not, has always been my view. Honestly, I sometimes do end up skipping your posts when they are extra long.......but I often do that for other peoples long posts as well In any case, what I do read is always interesting, and usually makes me think, which is always a good thing. |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: May 20 2013 at 11:22
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: May 24 2013 at 12:02
| Hi. I found DK's new album and listen. WOW. It is very different album and they show their musical potential in different form and genre.In IRAN you can't find this kind of music easily. But I tried hard to found that and pay too much to buy " The Trip ". I dont want to talk about my personal troubles. I want to say I'm very happy to find and buy "The Trip". Moshkito , I read your review and I enjoy so much. Please forgive me for my poor English. Writing in English is hard for me but I can read very good. Thanks. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 25 2013 at 12:34
I can easily tell you, that ... there was very little yawning at the Fillmore in those days, and I bet that at the UFO, the same thing was happening! We went, because it was worth it. And the trips were always exciting and worth while, though some folks did not like dance and theater in a weird mix (Incredible String Band), other times, you saw this guy play a sitar for 30 minutes by himself (Ravi), and then you saw the Grateful Dead do a 6 hour show, and at least one piece an hour long ... and no one ever thought they were that bad! I can tell you that I never thought that Andres Segovia was boring when he played a piece that was 25 minutes long, by himself, and non-stop! Or Toots Thielman's and his chromatic harp, took off on a jazz club and had everyone gushing at the end of 30 minutes ... with just as many tears, as laughs as swooning moments in the music ... Go ahead ... yawn ... good night to you! Some still think that the music sounds better when you're stoned, or ripped, or drunk, and the truth is ... there is no difference ... except ... do you want to trip or not? Most of us are too lazy to enjoy something for 10 minutes, sex included, I suppose! And now, I have to go read about Heather Graham's 1 hour orgasm ... way more interesting than progressive music I keep thinking! Or fun for that matter!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: May 26 2013 at 17:04
Say what now? I have to open another browser window... I haven't seen Boogie Nights for ages. Maybe it's time for a refresher. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: May 27 2013 at 06:15
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Just noticed the DK thread. Am only occasionally on PA so mea culpa. Read a bit about this outfit years ago. Bought Live at Orion's and New Dark Age. Then I had to decide what next, so got the lot. Then Ascension. Probably one of those coincidences... I occasionally write a tune and had one recorded way back that was like the first part of Ascension's opener. Must find some $ to get the rest some time. I see there are new additions to the old catalogue as well as some recent ones i have known about. Fantastic band with great atmospheres. Favourites are hard but The Devouring just hits my notes. Honestly there are so many bands (PT included) that had they existed in e.g. 1975 would have been world famous. Of course being an instrumental band makes mainstream break through a bit of a challenge. Interesting memory - listening to Burning The Hard City when a colleague suggested I watch some telly. Something interesting was happening to NYC on that day in Sept. 2001. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 29 2013 at 04:23
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That's kind of funny, I started out with Night For Baku. Wasn't so much that I had a problem deciding what to get next, I just liked that one so much that I raided the catalog.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Siloportem
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 11:46
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Just read "The Barsoom Project" by Larry Niven and Steven Barnes. Mentioned (and I suppose featured) in this book is a horror writer named HP Lovecraft and a story/novel by him: at the mountain of madness There's also a reference to a city. Is this what burning the hard city is about? Or just the song at the mountain of madness? So hard to tell with instrumental albums. Can anyone confirm this? ------------- Thanks !! Your topics always so good and informative. I like you talk. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 12:53
You'll have to ask Gayle about that ... but it is possible and then again, not possible.
I never made that connection at all ... and just listen to it for what it is ... and as far as I am concerned, this band is another master writer and story teller as anyone else out there in the last 50 years! It matters not to me if it has a connection to anything or not.
I feel like we have to ask one man what he meant when he said the father and I are one ... the important part is that the meaning and medium came to you and you brought it out in a form that you can understand. Where it came from might not make any sense to you, or me, at all!
That's just me, though. I find I do not need a justification for things to happen ... sometimes, things happen and sometimes they don't ... and music, or any of the arts, are one of the best places for this immediacy, that we lack in our lives, and have to have a dose of, in order to feel more complete.
I don't look "out" to find out "their" inspiration ... I look "in" to find mine, knowing that theirs is different.
That we may reach a similar spot or meeting ground as Gayle said in his email that "You got it!" about my review, to me only means, that he knows I can shut up the internal dialogue long enough to live another experience ... and this was what the old days, wanted to help you learn, until it was all drugs and nothing else, which is when it got loud and obnoxious, and commercial!
For me! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Siloportem
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 13:32
I agree with you in the sense that it should be aprreciated and enjoyed on its own. But when I'm very much into something (and I love that album) then I want to know anything about it. You're very right about Djam Karet being master storytellers. Some of those albums are almost like books made of music instead of words. ------------- Thanks !! Your topics always so good and informative. I like you talk. |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 13:55
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Personally, I don't really see any connection, other than the fact that Gayle must have read some Lovecraft. The song Mountains of Madness doesn't really conjure up the story for me, though I'm not sure any music really could (Lovecraft may have been tone deaf, and it was known to people that knew him that he hated music......something I also find hard to imagine). I've read everything Lovecraft wrote (not just the stories, but non-fiction and poetry as well) and I don't see any connection between that album title, "Burning the Hard City" and Lovecraft's works. Still, I think you'd have to ask the band members themselves to know for sure. Regardless of any connections, it's an incredible album. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 14:05
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Chuck and Gayle (at the very least) are fans of Harlan Ellison and Philip K. Dick, and "At The Mountains Of Madness" is surely a Lovecraft tribute piece. I'm fairly certain "Burning The Hard City" is not, though "Feast Of Ashes" may or may not be. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Siloportem
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 14:55
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Thanks for the info guys. I have read very little Lovecraft myself, so I can't compare. But I did pick up on a lot of references to his work in all kinds of movies, books games. ------------- Thanks !! Your topics always so good and informative. I like you talk. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 16:35
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I just enjoy their freaked out vibes and don't try and read anything into it really. ------------- |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 13 2013 at 12:01
To this day ... mark my words ... this is what has made "progressive music" important. If you don't get it, or don't understand it, it gets wasted! Sometimes, the cleverness and talent is too strong to not be appreciated, but still, it thrives, despite it being pasted by rock critics that wouldn't know their music tastes from their farts ... or freebies they can get!
ITCOTKC is not the best this and that without it's "story" and very obvious political statements about the time ... if it were anything else, it probably would be trivial and not as interesting! And the same thing goes for many of them. But then, you can stop at Caravan, and their luyrics? ... some satire, some fun, some weirdness ... and not meaningful beyond some fun in them!
But generally, all the great ones, has strong meanings and their work, for me, is no different than literature, art, or anything else at the time ... they were the best of the time span ... second to none.
And the bizarre thing, is that there are people that go around saying that "progressive" died 30 years ago, and they can not hear something like this, or Herd of Instinct, and appreciate ... what music has done in 40 years ... it never died! We lost the ability to listen! ... or as a poet used to say ... gotta get stoned! Which these days I would amend ... you don't need to get stoned, but could use a new perspective!
This, however, makes room for other things ... like you get Dream Theater doing a whole concept called Octavarium, or something else ... and we wonder what the connections are ... which is good ... but "hiding" the meaning of things, is usually the sign of an insecure "vision-maker" ... who has to deceive his public for monetary gains ... or some form of commerciality!
An artist is ... by definition ... a story teller, right from the start! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Djam Karet
Date Posted: August 23 2013 at 18:42
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Howdy, Gayle here. I was just reading around here a bit. A lot of our song titles are vague and a bit confusing. Burning The Hard City was recorded while we were at war with Iraq (the first time), so that was a strange and aggressive time. Anyway, when you don't have lyrics ... then you don't have an easy time coming up with a title! |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: August 23 2013 at 18:50
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Hey Gayle, good to see you here! Speaking of song titles, I was just thinking a while ago how perfect a title "Dark Clouds, No Rain" is for that piece on Suspension and Displacement. It really conjures up the perfect mental picture to go with the music. I'm still trying to figure out what "Grooming the Psychosis" entails, but that's one hell of a song too. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 23 2013 at 20:31
Hey, Gayle, cool to see you on here! Been a while since I last talked to you (at The Press at a DK gig). I missed the Pomona concert, but rest assured I won't miss any of the SoCal 2014 dates! The Trip is killer! And the album art is genius, IMO. Who came up with it? ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 24 2013 at 07:04
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Just got the new album and was listening to it on the way home yesterday. Of course I like it. Thanks for dropping in Gayle. OK so far my favorite is the second track heheheheheheh------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 24 2013 at 14:26
Thx Gayle ... glad to see you here, but I hope that we don't start asking for Freudian Analysis of the work of the band!
As you already know, I tend to define and study the "improvisational" side of things and have written many detailed studies of it. Some folks here like it, some don't, but it is fun to see people define an improvisation with a set beat or time for it, which from a film/stage design, would defeat the purpose of the exercise. As you said before to me on a mail, you might start with an A or a B, and end up with a Z!
You might enjoy some of the writings on this in the "Improvisation" thread.
I was about to write something else about your latest album for fun, and get folks all shook up! ... and I thought that creating an invisible connection to "The Trip" about Ken Kesey (the film) would be a lot of fun ... and of course, when the drums start is when the bus revs up the motor! For fun, of course! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 24 2013 at 15:04
You know something funny, or weird?
I think I even told them that when I heard one of their albums ... it was the album that was a tribute to Pinhas and Fripp ... that I did not hear them much ... I heard Djam Karet!
In many ways, you could say that sometimes I get into it so much, that I can see the colors and the feel, and the influence is not important to the listener. It might be to the player, but that is many times a very different thing, since what I see and you see are two different things ... they may have similarities ... but even the color perceptions are different!
I'm a writer. I see this happening to me every day ... wake up and the story wants this and that to happen ... three hours later, when I sit at the computer writing it ... it's totally different ... and for ME ... this is NEAT AND FAR OUT ... though it makes for more incomplete pieces, since you have no idea where they will end, or where they will go, and tomorrow a different feeling takes over.
But that is the exciting part of being an artist ... seeing that inner movie come and go ... making you think of Michelangelo and everything else ... and in the end ... it's none of the above or below ... it's just how the chips fell on the floor and you accidentally stepped on them! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: AnimalOrigin
Date Posted: August 15 2017 at 13:19
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Joined the forum just to join the Djam Karet fan club! It's absurd how little mention this band gets. I have listened obsessively to their first half dozen albums (through Ascension, I guess). The songs on A Night for Baku didn't thrill me; very heavy in some parts for no clear reason, and increased synth use. And they seemed to lose the plot with Recollection Harvest; the drama of their earlier songs was just missing. Any die-hard fans who understand this feeling, and can comment on the later albums?
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: August 15 2017 at 14:52
| After 30 plus years DK still don't get the respect they deserve. |