"Bad" Music? Really??
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72845
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Topic: "Bad" Music? Really??
Posted By: altaeria
Subject: "Bad" Music? Really??
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 11:25
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Recently, I was browsing reviews of quality albums from bands such as Journey, Styx, and Asia that are included here ... and some reviewers completely trash these works for being too commercial and for being "Corporate" Arena Rock, etc. Granted, maybe the stuff isn't PROG in the truest sense, but Geez-- Has anybody listened to most of the Rock music that's been pumped out by the major labels since the late 90's? At least these original Arena Rock bands displayed high levels of virtuousity, had incredible vocalists, and could write catchy melodic Rock songs that remain recognizable 35 years later. I just think some of the visceral bashing of the older "Corporate" Rock acts around here is downright unwarranted. Just because it's not Prog, doesn't mean it's at all equal to the hapless level of (name your generic auto-tuned rock act from 2009 here) .  |
Replies:
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 12:46
| Maybe people are sometimes a bit too harsh about these particular bands. It's not like Neal Schon was an idiot on guitar? but, maybe they are just remembering the down fall of prog in the late 70's and how bands such as these had more sugar poured on top of the compositions. I know what you mean......these bands compared to what was welcomed throughout the 90's. There is no justice. It is evident that they were finer musicians than the average power chord noise makers. I think they offended a generation of proggers back in the hey day though. It's a tough call. Neal Schon played some beautiful melodic and fast picking guitar leads in the commercial Journey hits and it's something you probably won't ever hear again. From that perspective I find it very sad. I miss hearing that level of musicianship in mainstream music. |
Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 12:55
I missing hearing musicianship in mainstream music
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TODDLER wrote:Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 12:55
That is a great reply
 . I for one do and will miss that level of playing as you called it. I still enjoy Journey to this day and talking about them, I have always felt their live album Captuerd from 1981, "captured" them at the height of their arena rock sound. It is one of my alltime favorite live albums. Neal, Greg Rolie.....great, great musicians not to be seen anymore. Its no wonder they played in Santana's band before Journey.-------------   
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 13:29
| Can't comment on Journey or Styx. Asia: Wetton is no INCREDIBLE vocalist and I reckon many of the more reviled glam/pop metal singers from the 80s would be better than him, though his big tone does suit Asia's music. Asia's debut is not really absolutely bad music but I also wonder if I would have even bothered to listen to the album if not for the lineup. Even if there is worse corporate rock than Asia, it doesn't change much: why do I have to like ANY of that music if there are more interesting artists yet to be heard? Leaving aside King Crimson or Rush, many bands/artists like Blue Oyster Cult, Kate Bush, Donald Fagen, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Supertramp, APP, Alan Holdsworth, Michael Hedges to mention a few released good to great albums in the 80s, so I don't have to particularly make an effort to like albums like the Asia s/t. If I did review it, I would probably give a 2.5, even to call it GOOD is pushing it a bit for me. |
Posted By: yanch
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 13:59
| Journey and Styx had their interesting moments and I quite agree that Schon and Rolie are excellent musicians.Journey and Styx produced some good music during their heyday and I do think get some undeserved harsh criticism. Asia on the other hand just has no redeeming value. You had 4 HUGELY talented musicians that got together at a time when prog needed a huge boost and gave us a bland, dull, boring, uninspired piece of crap. IMHO they deserve all the bad reviews for that. |
Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 14:07
Agreed on Journey. The first two albums were great IMHO. I actually got to see that lineup open for ELP. If that lineup were around these days at least they could go the indie route and not have to worry about an record company dictating how many they had to sell to keep their contract. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 14:48
I have Asia's first and second albums, purchased in the 80's when they came out........I bought them yea for the lineup probably but I do enjoy the music. I think Asia get compared to past prog work the members did rather than just on the content by iteself...but mehh doen't matter, I can see how die hard proggers felt krapped on in the 80's by arena rock bands and the likes of Asia.
I like it, its good music. -------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 14:56
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Asia, Styx, and Journey are 3 of my all-time favorite bands, but I seriously should be spending more time on AOR archives than Prog Archives since AOR is my preferred form of music. ------------- 
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Posted By: Noak
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 16:06
| Okay. They're still awful, no matter how talented musicians they are. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 16:49
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Styx are pretty shocking in my opinion. In fact they are sometimes held up as one of the very worst bands of all time. How talented they were/are isn't in question, it's just that many serious music fans cannot stand the sound they produced.
I do see this happening sometimes though. Under Wraps by Jethro Tull is sometimes held up as the spawn of Satan when really it's competent synth-pop. It's certainly not great and you'd be wrong to give it more than three stars, but people who give it one are just going against the synths, not the songs.
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 18:22
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I don't believe that music exists, so I think it's impossible to make any value judgement about it. But I absolutely hate Journey, Asia, and Styx. I'm not going to apologize for that and calling me elitist isn't going to change my opinion. I find them just as annoying as any rock group you care to name, although heavy autotune is really more of a pop and hip hop thing. The average state of music hasn't changed in a very long time, complaining about modern rock versus old rock is false nostalgia because the vast, vast majority of it has always been terrible. Noak, are those BOOBS in your signature? This is A NO BOOB ZONE.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 19:06
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Whether AOR music can be considered "bad" is open to debate, but one thing cannot be disputed: the genre which includes people like Maroon5 and John Mayer is called Terrible Music. ------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 03:25
| John Mayer's third album Continuum was shockingly good, if you ignore the single Waiting For The World To Change which was the worst thing on it. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 04:24
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These artists don't deserve "bashing" in particular, nor do they deserve praise. They are what they are. For me it's really a matter of having better things to listen to.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: altaeria
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 13:09
This is the purpose of my original post. I'm not criticizing someone as being "elitist" for having a negative opinion of the bands' style. However, I am suggesting that a your credibility as a REVIEWER is completely invalid if you bash the bands and tell me that they're simply "awful" or "sh*te" just because you don't like them. That's fine for your diary ... but practically worthless for the integrity of the site.  |
Posted By: Noak
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 13:18
Depends I guess. Would you consider the picture sexual? I don't, and they're very far away anyway. And nobody has said anything yet, and I've had for a while, so I figured people interpreted it the way you ''should'' interpret it. It's a shot from the film Härlig är Jorden by Roy Andersson, an incredibly sad short-film. The people in the picture are gassed to death a few moments later, very moving scene.
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Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 13:19
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I'd say Asia's debut album is worth 2 stars tops, maybe 1. I've never really enjoyed it and don't see what there is in it that can be enjoyed by other prog rock lovers - I even have difficulty considering it a good pop album. Heat of the Moment, the best known track off of it, I find annoying. Of the other tracks, the only other one I kind of like is the one with that cool keyboard bit at the intro. But once that intro ends, the song looses interest to me. To express this in a review - the purpose of which is to give others my opinion and a reason for them, so that they may make their own judgement based on their own tastes and the music I describe - seems entirely valid to me. I don't see at all how that is worthless for the integrity of the site. As far as I'm concerned, isn't it sort of the POINT of this site?
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Posted By: altaeria
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 13:44
I suppose... if the site is designed to encourage reviewers to simply bash or praise rather than describe and evaluate. Obviously a review is going to be Subjective in manner, but should we completely ignore Objectivity. Let's try not to be the Fox News Channel of Prog Rock.  |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 14:07
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^The Fox News reference is way off beam. I do have a problem with people who bash commercial music for the sake of it, because, like any other art form, there are good or bad. But I think you will find that the site works very well in its way of allowing reviewers to present their personal feelings and ratings on albums. The cream will always rise to the top, and, by and large, the majority of albums rated on the site find their correct level.
------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 14:14
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I would give Asia's debut ***** However, the second album *****
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 14:43
This has been argued before in other topics that there is no such thing as true Objectivity in music - because how good music is ultimately resides in how well it resonates in those that listen to them - you can say a music is a five star album and someone else could find nothing redeeming about it and think it's one star, whose to say who is right and who is wrong? Just because you like an album doesn't mean a bad rating is wrong. Just because you hate an album doesn't mean a good rating is wrong. Just because a reviewer says that he doesn't like an album doesn't mean that he is bashing an album.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 14:56
| The guy just doesn't like the bashing, not the ratings. I agree. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 23:23
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I went through the collab/prog reviewer reviews for the Asia debut. I thought maybe two reviews out of all those sounded like a bit of bashing was going on. The other negative reviews said the album would not appeal to a proghead's tastes, which is fair enough, I guess. In any case, I personally reject the weak defence usually offered for this album that it was a breath of fresh air in a stagnant music scene and that it would get a fairer assessment from a pop perspective. I think the examples I gave above show that it was more about what you wanted to listen to. If you - as in the OP - like it, fine, go ahead and review it but surely criticism of an album, especially one like Asia which is not utterly beyond reproach by any means, does not amount to bashing. By the way, the overall rating for the Asia debut is 3.09, so a lot more reviewers like it than you care to admit.
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Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 15:14
 Great reply! Nevertheless, [MUSIC] has a dictionary entry, and to avoid nihilism (however attractive it might be), let's assume it exists. At least, I think it safe to say, music has conceptual status and occupies some mental space.  Try and locate it.. About value judgements. I consider those inevitable and no big deal. I'm pretty sure Asia sucks, are very bad, not to my liking, or whatever sequence of letters you may choose to convey such an immediate association. I don't know who Styx and Journey are and havn't listened to Asia for years, so obviously, I'm not very opinionated with regards to this issue. What I generally find strange, though, is how people feel that Asia and others get subjected to some sort of wrongdoing, whenever people write unfavourable reviews. I could't care less about average ratings, on PA and elsewhere - quite a useless piece of information.
Exactly
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