Ratings based on progressiveness?
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Topic: Ratings based on progressiveness?
Posted By: Conor Fynes
Subject: Ratings based on progressiveness?
Date Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:48
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As you may have noticed, there have been alot of reviews posted on this site slamming various, otherwise 'good' albums for not being progressive enough; some even admitting to giving an album one less star just because it's not necessarily prog.
Now, I understand that this is a Prog site, but it seems sort of unfair to write off otherwise good albums simply because it isn't 'prog.' While the label of prog generally means there is intelligence and complexity involved, alot of simpler music is just as (sometimes more) heartfelt and quality than the progressive material.
Thoughts and opinions?
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Replies:
Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:50
| Good idea, virtually impossible to implement. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:52
some reviewers do this, some do not. the site seems to give reviewers free reign on how they wish to rate, within reason,
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:54
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I can see how it would make sense in some cases, Miles Davis for
example. I have also seen people say "this isn't exactly prog but I'm
giving it a five anyway because it is a masterpiece". People are allowed to use their own rating system as long as they back up their reasoning, I guess, so I don't worry too much about it.
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: July 21 2010 at 19:10
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I've been dealing with this since I first came to this site, hehe.
My own rating system is to rate 5 anything that I consider that deserves it, be it Prog or not. The review should explain if it's prog or not, not the rating.
But like some have said, it's impossible to create a solution for this, there must be like thousands of reviewers who have done that, and there's nothing actually wrong with it.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 21 2010 at 19:47
That's basically how I am. Since this is a prog site, I do look for progressiveness, and if it is lacking, my ratings tends to reflect that. But, as with most things, there are exceptions... ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
The Quiet One wrote:Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: July 21 2010 at 19:53
 Is it me, or what you said is quite the contrary to what I said? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 21 2010 at 20:08
Yeah, I'm not even gonna lie. That made no sense, did it? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: July 21 2010 at 20:39
Haha, too much beer, eh?
 |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 21 2010 at 20:44
Actually, believe it or not, no. I started quite late (for me) this evening and ate a big supper. I am trying to multitask though.   ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: July 21 2010 at 22:24
| I do list non-progness as a con, but it usually doesn't influence my rating. I usually throw it in as a warning to those looking for true prog. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 21 2010 at 23:34
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I am annoyed by the same thing on the other end when people dock a star for it being too "inaccessible", even if they like it. If you don't like it, that's fair, but I don't see how anybody could know what taste of the average PA browser really is, so I don't think you should modify your review based on that. But I also don't care about the taste of the average person, even the average PA browser, so maybe that is just me. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 21 2010 at 23:39
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What the hell does "progressive enough" mean? That's the stupidest concept I've heard today |
Posted By: CinemaZebra
Date Posted: July 22 2010 at 00:56
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See my reviews for The Bends and Pretty Hate Machine. I would link you to them, but I'm a lazy b*****d.
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 22 2010 at 01:39
What does anything mean? ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: July 22 2010 at 02:32
It varies from an act of meaning to another. I think most people who rate albums by their progressiveness do it because descriptions like "essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music" and "excellent addition to any prog rock music collection" seem to imply that you shouldn't give five or four stars to an album which isn't prog. |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: July 22 2010 at 08:47
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For me, I follow the guidelines. Let's use the 5 star rating as an example - "essential: a masterpiece of progressive music". Although The Beatles' Abbey Road, Metallica's And Justice For All, and Led Zeppelin's IV are not entirely "prog", they are all masterpieces of the genre the same way Genesis' Foxtrot and Yes' Close to the Edge are. If I feel an album is essential, I will give it 5 stars no matter what the genre is. I don't usually base my ratings on "progressiveness", but more so how much appeal they would have to people on this site. An album that is 100% prog, yet derivative and poor in every way deserves a 1 star rating because I can't recommend it to anybody here. A pop album that is intelligent and enjoyable deserves a much higher rating because I can recommend it to people. I find it terrible when people say "this is my all-time favorite album, but since it's not prog I'll only give 3 stars". That's just stupid IMO. ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: July 22 2010 at 17:58
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I actually write all my reviews as if they aren't connected to this site, at all. I also basically steal my rating/review system from George Starostin. I totally ignore progressiveness unless it adds to a song or makes it more memorable or enjoyable to me. |
Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: July 22 2010 at 21:02
| I personally try to have reviews that will appeal to everyone that might look into the band. For example, Pink Floyd has PLENTY of non-prog listeners who dont even know what Prog is. It's good music though. Unless something is insanely prog, I try not to focus on the 'progness' and rather what makes the album unique in the scope of music. |
Posted By: tarkus1980
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 10:02
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I've always treated this site not as "reviews of progressive albums," but "reviews of albums, progressive or not, by artists whom the powers that be have deemed sufficiently close to progressive to merit inclusion on this site." Because of this, I don't give any consideration to how progressive an album is when I rate it. ------------- "History of Rock Written by the Losers." |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 17:39
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I don't come here to learn about non-progressive albums and artists. There are plenty of sites where you can review any album. But a great album that is not progressive cannot be "a masterpiece of progressive music". However, it can be "an excellent addition to any prog rock music collection". The lower an overall rating of an album, the less I will subtract for lack of progness. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 20:25
that statement made me roll my eyes |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 23:23
See I never take the ratings system too literally. That means if you're a fan of a band but they have an album you don't like so much, you technically cannot rate that album 2 stars. |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 00:13
Which is why I enjoy your reviews more than most. We folks don't give a sap's nutsack how progressive an album is! Huzzah! |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 12:00
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Yeah, albums should be rated on their own merit, not whether or not they're prog. Deciding if it's considered prog or not is the teams job, the reviewers are just rating the albums. ------------- Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 20:25
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But because we have a complete discography policy, a band/artist deemed suitable may have many non-Prog albums. Ideally that should be mentioned in the bio, but teams often don't have time, the financial resources, or the opportunity when it comes to obscure one to check out every album, or update the bio if a new non-Prog one comes along. What is Prog is in the ear of the behearer, anyway, and not even team members always agree. I'm fine with people rating albums that would never have got them in highly (for example, Miles Davis' Some Kind of Blue), but at the same time we are asked to rate progressive rockshness by the descriptors. I have a big problem with that since there are acts here that fit their categories that are not progressive rock, or rock at all. And I'm not about to rate an album, say in Progressive Electronic, lower because it isn't rock. I'd rather rate based on my enjoyment. Anyway, I think reviewers should mention if they think something is not Prog in many cases, but that doesn't have to specifically factor into the rating. |
Posted By: Fieldofsorrow
Date Posted: July 28 2010 at 16:45
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I'm amazed that so many people do not even consider the progressiveness as a factor when reviewing albums on this site! Of course, it's not the be all and end all of music, but this site is supposed to guide a listener towards progressive rock. I'm all for pop, jazz, metal, whatever - but I don't understand the urge to disregard the progressive ethos of the site just because you think a particular album is great. Evolver said it perfectly - there are plenty of sites for reviewing music without such a criterion. But for the love of music, it's PROG Archives, not Great Music Archives. ------------- Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 12:20
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To be honest, I do not have a standard set of criteria. Other than quality and/or progressiveness of an album, there is also expectation and comparison with other/previous works of the same or other bands. I am happy to be left free to choose which criteria to apply to each review, them including progressiveness or not. Yes this is a progressive site and progressiveness should count, but unless there is a dual ranking system (i.e. one for general quality and one for progressiveness) I am more than happy to read the comments in the review. Something that is prog for someone, might not be prog for another, so subjectivity will dominate in the end... |
Posted By: LiquidEternity
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 13:10
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I tend to view a band through their discography, so when I dock an album for not being very prog, that's in comparison with other, more creative or complex albums in their own discography. So would I dock Fear of a Blank Planet for not carrying too many hallmarks of prog? Nah, because that's one of their most progressive and deep releases (okay, to my ears, anyways). But when a band like Gentle Giant has given us half a dozen absolutely terrifyingly prog albums and then throws us a limp puppy like Giant for a Day, that sucker is gonna get blasted for failing to have any good prog to it. But the fun part is that this is all subjective, so if you think I'm an idiot, you're stupider.  ------------- 
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 13:18
| The ratings are for "how good it is". For "how progressive it is" there's the review field for anyone to leave their impressions on the matter. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 13:27
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I used to do this, but then I grew up. I'm sick of genres. Music is either good or it isn't. Anything beyond that is just petty. So yes, you will be able to go through my past reviews and run into a few lesser ratings simply because I didn't consider it 'prog'. But anything I will review in the future will be rated under different circumstances, as far as I am concerned.
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 13:29
If you want to warn people of an album lacking your criteria for 'prog', say so in the review. The album's rating shouldn't suffer simply because you don't think it's in line with the mindset of visitors to this site. My opinion, that's all.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 13:31
^ and ^^ 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 13:54
Some thoughts:
Now, in one case I was particularly harsh, but explained my reasons: Album: Who's Next
Rating 3 stars
Reason;
This is the reason why I fought against the inclusion of The Who, I'm a hardcore fan, but simply I believe they don't belong here.
So, if I want to follow the guidelines, I have do this.
But in no case being an album more Prog than another or having a higher degree of Progressiveness (whatever this means), is an excuse for me, to rate an album higher, all Prog releases s are in the same starting point, what I rate is the music.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 14:20
This .An album is either good or it isn't. I have my opinion on the practice of docking stars because something is 'not prog' (something which cannot be objectively measured anyway - there are people who don't consider Krautrock or Jazz/Rock to be prog), but will withhold them because it is not my habit to offend people. Unlike some members here who seem to be unable to post anything without putting someone or something down  . |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 14:23
Yes, just rememberd the thread you made Raff in the CZ which has a lot to do with this, I'll quote stuff by Admin, Easy Livin' which I think it's important:
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Posted By: Fieldofsorrow
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 15:31
I see your point - of course the review is the optimum place to outline an album's progressive (or non-progressive) qualities. But the ratings system does indicate where any given album sits in a progressive rock collection. How can one award a completely unrelated album to the genre the status of being essential to any prog fan? I appreciate that is an extreme case, but it's where that particular line of thinking takes you, and it does strike me as rather illogical. All this talk about growing up - what do you mean? It's far easier to disregard progressiveness, because it's a quality that's so hard to define, but how is classification juvenile? No disrespect here, I'm just stumped. ------------- Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband |
Posted By: Fieldofsorrow
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 15:39
But... the ratings ARE for an album's progressiveness. Combined with quality, of course. Ivan was quite right to make those guidelines so bold and large - no masterpiece of progressive rock can reach such a stature if it isn't prog, surely?! Nor for that matter can it be an excellent addition to a prog rock collection.  ------------- Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:08
NO, look again. They are to help you say if it's "good", "excellent", "masterpiece", "be careful" or "save your money" |
Posted By: Fieldofsorrow
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:09
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^ An excellent what? An excellent addition to a progressive rock collection, that's what... ------------- Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:12
That last part especially makes little sense to me - just because an album isn't prog doesn't mean it can't be an excellent addition to a prog rock collection. I'm with the camp who rates based on overall quality, as opposed to progressive quality. Sure, the progressive quality can play a part, but I don't think it has to for everything. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:14
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Jon I was about to say the same exact thing, the second part of the first sentence was almost exactly the same. |
Posted By: Fieldofsorrow
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:18
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I said in my original post that it's not the be all and end all - far from it! I'm just astounded by the vast majority of people who claim that it should play NO part. I don't want my beliefs confused here - I rate musicality and emotive qualities of music far above innovation - but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some, when it is so core to the boundary pushing genre that we're dealing with here. Does anyone understand that? ------------- Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:21
| You have a whole review at your disposal to explain all these things. I know I used to do it all the time whenever I reviewed a Proto-Prog or Prog-Related album. Having the overall rating of the album suffer because of its real or perceived lack of progressiveness - even when it is a recognized masterpiece (think of Miles Davis' A Kind of Blue, for instance) - is very unfair, and I fully understand why Micah (JLocke) called it childish, as strong as such a word might be. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:48
Those are generic expressions that designate the fact that PA is concerned with prog... They are not indications for rating on characteristics instead of quality. At least that's we the PA guys (and girls) think, you're free to rate however you like, it's a free site. |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:51
Said it before, and I'll say it again:
And to confuse the matters further, we get this in the rules:
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Posted By: Fieldofsorrow
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:52
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I won't be rating any album down, Raff, rest assured, because of a lack of progressiveness. I can see why someone might find that childish - that point has been argued strongly, and I agree upon consideration. But to be honest, it has little to do with what I'm trying to stress here. I would not rate a non-progressive album here at all, because there are albums here that I love even though I don't consider them in fitting with the genre. I agree it would be sorely unfair to rate an album one star when it's clearly a masterpiece - but if it you don't believe it's progressive rock, then why review it here in the first place? I thought we were supposed to guide newcomers through their exploration of the style, highlighting the good and bad alike to give them some insight into what this music is all about. In my humble opinion, by reviewing albums here that we don't believe even meets their categorisation, it's not actually terribly helpful. There are million other websites to review albums under different terms, but what I love about this place is that there is strong suggestion from the rating system to assess albums from a progressive standpoint. Apologies to Jon and A Person, we appear to be having a breakdown in communication here.  I don't understand how a non-prog album can have such a high place in a progressive rock collection. ------------- Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:58
| What I mean is that there are albums that I think would be of interest to a prog fan, Kind of Blue is a great example. It's pure jazz, yes, but if a prog fan is looking into JR/F I can't imagine them not being interested in hearing it. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:59
Yeah we noticed, you have still much to learn |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 18:37
Not true. I am a huge fan of both Deep Purple and Blue Oyster Cult, yet my only one-star reviews on this site are of albums released by them. The definition for the one-star rating says 'only for completionists', which means those ultra-fans who need to have everything released by their favourite band will want to get the album. You can be a fan, yet be objective. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 18:46
Oh please, that's a fallacy, a Jazz or Pop or Rap album may be a good addition to:
It's obvious that a when the site mentions a Prog Rock collection in such an specific way, they are referring to a collection of Prog albums, despite the fact that 99.99% of us have just a music collection of many genres. But remember, this is a Prog site, I wouldn't rate an album higher than another for being "more Prog", but if an album is absolutely non Prog, I can't rate it with more than 3 stars, and I agree with that, because his is not Allmusic, this is Prog Archives..
Iván -------------
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Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 19:13
I said 2 stars, not one. The 2 star rule says Fans only. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 19:56
I dispair sometimes, I really do.
 For albums of artists in Proto Prog (and Prog Related) you don't have to rate them as Progressive Rock albums - because by definition they are not Progressive Rock albums - that's the whole point of those two categories.
If you bothered to look at the text under the star-rating for The Who's "Who's Next" you would have seen these words:
Note that it says "any rock music collection", not "any prog rock music collection"
Similarily, if you look at Led Zepp IV you'll see it says:
It does not say - Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music.
So, you don't have to dock points because a Prog Related album isn't Prog.
Of course you can if you want, that's your choice, but no one is forcing you.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 20:44
Sorry Ivan I think that is just plain rediculousIt's like getting a coffee from Dunkin Donuts and refusing to say it's good cos you are in a Donut shop  ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 20:47
but i agree with your point------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 20:58
| ^not only Zep, Queen, Sabbath et al. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 20:59
Dean, that's a recent patch, but anyway, this is what is poisted iin the rating:
If I mark any of those two, I would be supporting something I always denied, The Who shouldn't be here at all(IMO of course)
The day I can read in the stars rating Rock and not Prog, I will change my ratings.
BTW: This patch wasn't there in 2007 when I wrote my review.
BTW II: If you check STYX - The Grand Illusion, you will see I rated it with 5 stars, because IMO has many Prog elements, The Who not.
Even when I would buy any The Who album before any STYX album.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 21:08
No, your example is a fallacy:
They asked me is Who's Next a Prog masterpiece?...I have to answer, no because it's not a Prog album...If they had asked me how good is Who's Next..I would reply, fantastic and perfecr masterpiece. Do you get the difference?
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 21:18
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^ Ivan I have learn't along time ago not to debate with a lawyer
No matter what rationale you put behind it IMO your reason to maximum rate a non prog album a 3 on a Progressive music site is plain rediculous
Let us agree to disagree or disagree to agree  ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 21:29
Please understand me
The question is Is Who's Next a Prog Masterpiede?..... I answer: It's a masterpiece BUT IT'S NOT A PROG MASTERPIECE because IT'S NOT PROG
Just think if somebody asks you Is Pele a Basaketball star?... You have to answer No he's not, he's a Football or Sports star but never a basketball star.
The second question is: Is Who's Next a great addition for a PROG collection?...I answer: It's a great addition for a MUSIC or ROCK collection, but not necesarilly for a Progressive Rock Collectio, because I don't know if every Prog fan will like it.
With the same example: If somebody asks you "Wuld you believe Pele is a candidate for the Basketball Hall of Fame...You have to answer: No way!!!!!!
No matter if you consider he's the best sportsman ever, he doesn't play basket, in the same way The Who doesn't play Prog.
SIMPLE.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 21:45
Well, not ever prog fan likes Pink Floyd music, either. But Pink Floyd is almost universally considered ''Prog''. So, you're still in danger of not lining up your opinion with everyone, because, well, it's not even possible. The purpose of the review is to express your own opinion of something, and for me, it should be regardless of genre.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 22:01
A Jazz album can improve a Jazz and a Musical collection.
A Prog album can improve a Prog and a Musical collection
As simple as that, no matter how many Jazz, Rock, Pop, Classical masterpieces I have, this albums won't improve my Prog Collection, simply because this albums are not Prog.
Maybe some won't like ot, but my opinion is that this Prog albums are good enough for a Prog collection.
Iván.
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 22:16
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Well, I don't know about all this ballyhoo going on in this thread, but I rate albums based on their overall quality. It seems ridiculous to me to give a masterpiece of pop/rock/jazz/whatever music a low rating just because it isn't proggy enough. If it isn't prog, it shouldn't be on the site in the first place, but in any case I will mention that in the body of the review. So there! ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 22:24
Exactly my point.
 The Who shouldn't be here, they are the best Rock band ever (IMO), better than almost any Prog band.....But it's not Prog, so I can't judge it as a Prog album.In the body of my Who's Next review I said it's perfect and probably the ultimate Rock album, but I can't say IT'S A PROG MASTERPIECE, because I would be saying a lie.
So, if I can't say it's a Prog Masterpiece or a great addition for a PROGRESSIVE ROCK COLLECTION, I have to say Good but not essential for a Prog collecytion (as I explain in my review)
One question for those who say good is good?
If somebody asks you, show me your best albums, you can show tha person whatever album you consider great even Eminem if you like his rap...OK?
But if somebody asks you Show me your Prog collection......Would you show that person your Duran Duran albums?
Iván
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 22:39
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^ No but I would not have different music collections littered throughout my house just because someone deems what is prog or what is jazz etc? I mean would you have the Who in a different room?
I have Duran Duran Rio in my music collection for example under D, near Dixie Dregs
I am actually being silly now, but i respect your opinion so will bow out gracefully ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 01 2010 at 22:44
Now you're loosing it.
 Now seriously: Doesn't matter where you have Duran Duran, it's not Prog.
If somebody aske me for my best PROG albums, I go to the place where I have them and take 5, 10 or 20 of my best Prog albums.
If somebody asks me for my best albums, believe me, Rumors, Who's Next and No Need to Argue will there side by side with Foxtrot and Hybris.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 02:01
Yep, that is because the same piece of software-code is used for all entering a review on this site regardless of genre or category in the same way as the header and footer on every page is the same piece of code for every page and the relpy box for this post is the same piece of code for every post regardless of which thread it is in. Sorry about that - bu ttake it from me now that the words "prog" and "progressive" in the rating tick boxes do not apply to Proto Prog and Prog Related artists - that's mailto:M@Xs - M@X's ruling on this subject - not mine.
Who said "I disagree with an addition, but once they are here I keep my mouth shut"?
And:
Looks like you are voicing an opinion on whether such a band/album shoud be included in the site to me. And it would appear that you are doing it again in your Hendrix reviews. Bad form old bean.
No one is asking you to change your ratings. Read my post again (the full one, not this edit). We cannot change the wording in the review entry part of the page - so you have your escape clause if need one to ease your conscience, but for everyone else who writes a review for Proto Prog and Prog Related, they can ignore the words "Prog" and "progressive".
No it wasn't - but it was there when you posted in this thread yesterday instructing everyone on why they cannot give a non-Prog album a high rating as if it were a restriction imposed by the site.
I'm saying that there is no restriction and they can give a non-Prog album in a non-Prog category any rating they like... and so can you.
Irrelevant. ------------- What? |
No matter how much I love "Who's Next" I'm not sure why am I rating it in a Prog site, I agree it's the quintessential Rock album, a complete masterpiece and one of my favorite albums of all times, but has absolutely no relation with Prog, but, it's here and it's great so I will review even when I must say in advance that the rating will be unfair for the quality of the music but it's one of the injustice that can happen when a band is placed out of it's natural context.Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 02:22
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I can relate to the original question posed here - but it seems fair to allow for this. If a perceived lack of progginess, or perhaps an "ordinary" sound is what made the reviewer enjoy the disc less, then so be it a lesser rating. Someone else might take off a star for a mastering issue if they are an audiophile, while others might believe that the music itself is what should be reviewed. It's hard to say what is a superficial quality to one listener or another (except maybe for really non-music related things such as packaging, cover art, failure to include lyrics, etc. - it would be kind of lame to take off stars for these things)... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Fieldofsorrow
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 02:28
Correct. That however doesn't stunt my curiosity. I think Ivan is absolutely right to make this case as strongly as he is doing so. For want of a better analogy... let's say that I'm an avid stamp collector. One day I might find a terrific ancient coin that I really love. I will cherish it, and put it amongst my prized possessions, but if anyone wanted to see my stamp collection, I wouldn't show them the damn coin! A Person was saying earlier about how a particular Miles album (I like it a lot) would be of interest to a prog fan. Well, sure, that may be true, but the only thing I don't really understand is why it's considered a masterpiece of a progressive rock collection. The first bit, I get, but its placement I question. And to anyone who is fed up with me yet, I apologise. People may perceive this as pedantic, but this is actually a big issue, as it has a lot of influence on reviewing albums here, and I'd like to understand more. ------------- Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 05:40
I haven't posted reviews on PA for a while, but I write regularly for another site, and I can tell you that the reason why I take off stars (or half-stars, since we use them on Progressor) are generally the following, in no particular order: a) weakness at the compositional level, especially as regards lack of cohesiveness in the song structures; b) when vocals are present, vocals that are not up to scratch (very frequent); c) bad overall sound quality/poor recording; d) overt derivativeness (I have reviewed my share of clones of any given prog band, old and new). Of course, a lot comes down to personal taste, but, when you have to review albums you are not familiar with, you learn to be objective. In any case, since on Progressor we get to review a lot of stuff that is not conventionally 'prog', docking stars because of that is generally not an issue. However, in the past couple of months I have given a very low rating to an album because it had nothing to do with the purposes of the site - it was basically elevator music sounding at times like the soundtrack to a Seventies softcore movie . |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 10:36
In the forum, but in my reviews I try to be 100% honest.
And this is not irrelevant for me.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 10:45
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 11:04
In this thread you have said "The Who shouldn't be here at all(IMO of course)" ... that is an opinion regarding the addition of a band that you disagree with made in the forum - in a thread that is not about The Who, or Proto Prog, so there was no real need to say it at all. Of course there is nothing wrong with that - we can all disagree on a band addition and have the right to voice that opinion in the forum - but you say you do not once a band has been added, yet you do.
The review guidelines make it very clear that voicing an opinion on a band addition in a review is not permitted - regardless of how honest you think you are being.
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13152 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13152
It (your Styx rating) was not relevant to this discussion, and it still isn't. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 12:33
Tacky and bad form. Once an artist is admitted review them for their own merits whether you consider them prog or not. Feel free to ignore them if you don't think they belong here. Progressiveness is extremely subjective. Granted it is one of those things that some of us have a lot of fun dicussing. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 14:31
. Bad sound quality especially Unforgiveable unless of course you are looking at the early 70's for example where some analogue material failed to match the composition. Trespass & Nursery Cryme spring to mind.------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 18:17
I know hat as usual you will try to find contradictions, but this is not a a normal case, I'm not asking for The Who to be fdeleted or protesting against them , I was just giving a specific example of how I believe it's correct to rate a non Prog album according to our systemn and following the guidelines..
And obviously you know it's not a normal case because you say "in a thread that is not about The Who, or Proto Prog" the problem would had been if I started a thread about The Who not belonging here (or joined another), but as you well know it's not the case, I explained why I can give 3 stars to a non-prog album acording to the guidelines.
And about my honesty, I don't think I'm honest, I'm an hopnest person and you don't have reasons to doubt this.
Iván
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 19:34
I never doubted or questioned your honesty - I simply said that a review was not the place to give your opinion of an artist additon, even if you honestly believe that the opinion you give is a true one - or the opinion you give is an honest one - the giving opinion is the error and the infringement, not the veracity of the opinion. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 19:46
If ever we needed a crack team of lawyers, you guys would not miss a trick.------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 20:23
LOL, This morning I made a judge pull of his hairs, made him fall in contradiction 3 times in 10 mimutes.
At the end he signed a new document I wrote for him without asking more.
Normally guys here give me more problems, so Prog Archives is a good practice
Iván
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