Noticed
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=67959
Printed Date: February 24 2025 at 23:42
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Noticed
Posted By: elder08
Subject: Noticed
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 13:43
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Anyone notice how some of the people here on Progarchives.com review albums by how "PROG" they are or how "ZEUHL" they sound? I could understand using this very much so as a small part of a review but honestly basing a whole review around one topic? That would be like me reviewing a RHCP album based on how funky they are?!?!?! Please think of this next time you write a review it just makes you look stupid.
Opinions? ------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |
Replies:
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 13:55
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Sometimes it can be unavoidable, especially if someone is reviewing an album which, to them, is absolutely definitive of a particular sub-genre or sound. You've done one review on your time on PA - why not do some more so we can contrast your style with the styles you comment on? ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 14:00
Thanks for the warning. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
elder08 wrote:Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 14:01
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Such designations are unimportant to me. As a term, "prog" is so ambiguous it can be used in a number of different ways. I don't know what 'zeuhl' really means, so I just ignore it except as a category. I can understand how some people might want to use the terms though - they provide a convenient framework for assessment. On the other hand, I do find them sophomoric when adhered to in a pedantic manner. But hey, we can't all really be experts and we have to start somewhere. I just hope those that cling to the designations learn more about music so that they can loosen their grip after a while. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 14:06
What's with the negative vibes, man? 
Can't say I've noticed this phenomenon. I think your comment is too vague... why not post, with specific examples, in the reviews discussion thread?
BTW... I don't think it's constructive to say people look stupid in your OP... just my opinion
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Posted By: elder08
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 14:07
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Yeah it wasnt nessacary but anyways I don't want to post them just in case they get offended ------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |
Posted By: elder08
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 14:08
------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 14:12
Well, it's a prog site. There's people who like prog to be prog and nothing else. Grant them the right to write reviews under that light without calling them stupid.  I don't think an album is good or bad depending on how "prog" or "zeuhl" or whatever it is, but some people do, and I guess it's perfectly legitimate. (I actually would rate quite low a too-zeuhl album  )------------- 
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 14:15
Yep, that's fair enough.
 However I think some carefully worded, constructive criticism can help people try to improve their reviewing skills. Doesn't need to be negative.
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Posted By: elder08
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 14:22
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Okay how about this people reviewing on these sights should always follow the guidelines and respect the fact that everything you listen to ISN'T GOING TO BE PROG. ------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 14:28
 ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 14:36
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I'm a newbie so it's absolutely not my intention to try to give lessons to anyone, but we all see thing we like and things we do not like in reviews.
I wonder if it has even been done but otherwise it might be a good idea to try to write some kind of "GUIDE OF THE GOOD REVIEWER".
Some examples of the kind of recommendations I would list:
1. It's probably unavoidable to make subjective statements about an album, but try also to give objective statements which can help other readers to understand what will they find in the album. Statements such as "this is a great album, buy it and it will not disappoint you" do not convey much useful objective information. Statements such as "the style is similar to Genesis' Wind and Wuthering but with less complex compositions and more comercial melodies and more neo-prog arrangements" are much more informative.
2. Preferably do not review albums which are your first listen of the band. You have nothing to compare to. You may be tempted to say things such as "this is the best neo-prog album I've ever heard" when maybe it's the weakest album of that band. Well informed comments such as "if you do not know this band this is not their best album to start with, start better with xxx" or "this album is a vast improvement compared to their previous one but still weaker than their next release zzz" are much more useful.
etc
I leave it to other members to make their suggestions for what such a "Guide of the good reviewer" might say.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 14:47
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Umm...this is a prog site, not Amazon.com or some other general music site. The progginess quotient or lack thereof is a somewhat important factor to consider in regards to the audience that you are writing the review for. The star guidlines do tell you to rate the album on where it would fit into a prog fan's collection. There are now different star guidlines in regards to albums of artists listed as prog-related and proto-prog. I suppose that where it gets sticky is with the non-prog albums of artists that are listed as prog bands. Those albums should get immediately downgraded under the star system as a result of their lack of progginess. Thus, the inclusion of such a discussion within the review. ------------- 
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 14:55
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^ Gerinski,
I'm comparitively new here myself, but i can tell you there are actually more than enough threads with people giving advice on reviews. I've taken on board a lot of this advice, but to be honest I've come to the point where i realise that you can't please everyone. Best just to go with your own feelings. So long as you follow the reviews guidelines you should be fine:
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13152 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13152
Rob, you're a bad man
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 14:59
Damn, dude! Copy and paste that line into the your review box these days and half the time you'll be right on the money! ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 15:01
I agree with you... ...however, there are a few non-prog albums in prog categories I have given five stars to. I will just have to live with my hypocrisy.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 15:04
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 15:47
Dr. Evil?  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: elder08
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 15:57
Yeah but I have seen some people give a fine album that deserved a 4 a 2 for lack of being prog enough that would be like me giving Crack the Skye a one for lack of amazing vocals keying in on one point and not even noting on others that are amazing ------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 16:09
| ^ Yes but in your OP you asked about people reviewing the progness, not rating by the progness. Those are quite different things. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 16:20
Or they just didn't like it? There are very few non-prog rock albums that I would give a 4 to under any circumstances, and in a large part that is because of the qualities that makes something non-prog rock. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 17:11
This topic was created just to annoy people, stop giving it attention it doesn't deserve and listen to some... Jaga Jazzist instead! 
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 17:13
I'd really like to know what a commercial melody is, though. And apparently Neo-Prog has its own arrangement now. They should make it a preset in ProTools or something. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 17:14
Jaga Jazzist was created to annoy people, stop giving them attention they doesn't deserve. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: elder08
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 20:22
Are you being serious? Its more of a news feed. Its something that needed to be addressed and thats what I did I mean you left you comment just to annoy people ------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |
Posted By: elder08
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 20:30
5 - Do not voice general opinions on matters such as whether a band/album/sub-genre should be included in the site, whether you agree with the star rating system, etc.. Such matters should be discussed in the forum. Keep the review pertinent to the specific album concerned. The reviews section is NOT the place for initiating or prolonging a debate. Wouldn't that apply...I mean its sounds like almost anything not prog you wouldnt like therefore you wouldn't rate or review nicely in a good manner I review by how good something is in every category not just if its non-prog or supreme prog ------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |
Posted By: WileyMarshall
Date Posted: June 02 2010 at 23:16
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PROGarchives, not GENERALMUSICarchives. I too think it is a bit silly for someone to rate an album based only on how progressive it is, but this is in fact the most profound prog site around. We need to have the right to rate these albums depending on their "progness". It's stupid, I completely agree but that's just the way of things... |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: June 03 2010 at 01:08
I think you address a valid issue indeed. There's a contradiction between the guidelines that kind of bugs me: - Guideline 5 indeed says NOT to debate whether an album should be on the site (hence whether it's prog or not) - But then the rating system clearly demands you to judge an album on its prog value. eg ***** Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music. It doesn't say a masterpiece of music. If I bother at all then I solve this by addressing the progginess in my review text, but it doesn't reflect in my rating. Some people handle this in another way and they are perfectly entitled to. That's one of the great things about this whole site. It's up to the reader to decide whether a review makes relevant points for him or not. |
Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: June 03 2010 at 06:06
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Posted By: elder08
Date Posted: June 03 2010 at 13:15
 Its more of the fact that if someone visits the site and see's one of these review it would really make us look like idiots.------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 03 2010 at 13:33
It also prompts people to join the site to post their own reviews. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Sleepwalker
Date Posted: June 03 2010 at 13:39
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 03 2010 at 14:10
Dude....there are tons of things about this site that make us look like idiots. They just have to visit the forum. A lot of us actually think we know the definition of "prog" and argue about what it means, then use the term ambiguously in reviews! We're not geniuses here. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 03 2010 at 14:15
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Posted By: Evolutionary Sleeper
Date Posted: June 03 2010 at 14:43
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Whoa! I used to use that picture of Vander as my avy, so I though I had sleep-posted this or something a long time ago ....that was weird.
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Posted By: Progist
Date Posted: June 03 2010 at 16:11
What does 'zeuhl' mean???? 
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 03 2010 at 16:24
It's Kobaian for celestial or celestial music. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: June 03 2010 at 16:28
I've seen people give an album that deserves five stars one star and I've seen them give an album that deserves one star five stars... oh wait! I almost forgot that it's not my place to say how many stars an album deserves! We all can only give our opinions. Stop complaining that other people don't share yours. ------------- 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 03 2010 at 16:30
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 03 2010 at 19:49
I rarely read reviews, to be honest with you ... I can grasp a lot more about the msuci from the folks that post here and their emotional involvement with it, than I do from some reviewers. Since I also review foreign/art films (over 200 of them listed at IMDB already and 250 more to go!), I'm used to people not liking what I do or write, but I do NOT compare anything to something else ... I could state that I thought it had a touch of this, or that, but it would be specific and an example ... not an "idea" about music, and specially use a term that some folks never did in discussing their very own music ...
The harshest part, is that a lot of people that post here are a bit too close to "fans" and the use of the word gets those kind of listeners to that music a bit better ... but sadly it is also a way to kill it, since you get to like one, and the rest ... goes down hill from there!
And this is one of my peeves in discussing "progressive" ... it's not about "prog" ... but about the fact that many of these people wanted to do a lot more than just pop music! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: elder08
Date Posted: June 04 2010 at 07:20
Your right about one thing I am telling them what they "should do" this thread was created to see if people saw it ,other than me, as a problem. ------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |