For Genesis, I would personally suggest And Then There Were Three or The Lamb...just my personal favorites, you may not enjoy them as much. Still worth a go

 

Right, listen to this man and try their self-titled....or maybe Calling All Stations

I agree. While I think it is often worth the effort to get a taste for something you don't at first like, it is not a failure if you don't manage to acquire that particular taste, no matter how many other people have it. Some music, no matter what its merits, just doesn't do it for us. Personally, though I can recognize the excellence of Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, for instance, it has never really moved me. Not a failing: just a fact.

 

Of course, if Jon Anderson reads this he will come round your house and bash you round the head with a Yes box set until you change your mind.

 

Nothing is wrong with your personal music tastes

 

As a matter of fact, they are a lot better than most Sympho-neo-retro progheads who only like that!!!

 

It is a little surprising you appreciate Marillion & Beardfish, but not Yes and Genesis, but nothing that's worth worrying about.

I, personally, love Yes, but I don't like Genesis.  (But I listen to metal, so whatever)

or Relayer!

 

Oh and for Genesis Trick of the Tail is a good place as its not too way out but Foxtrot is my fave...

 

 

rod65 wrote: Paravion wrote:   You know how it is with prog music. It takes time for one to get into it. Especially "harder" stuff... That's what I meant by saying that I tried to like them. Really?  The cure is trying not to care about disliking yes or genesis. I agree. While I think it is often worth the effort to get a taste for something you don't at first like, it is not a failure if you don't manage to acquire that particular taste, no matter how many other people have it. Some music, no matter what its merits, just doesn't do it for us. Personally, though I can recognize the excellence of Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, for instance, it has never really moved me. Not a failing: just a fact.

 

Yup, you'll quickly grow to hate them.

 

Thanks for the detailed response, Paravion. If I gave the impression that I thought it was necessary or better to like music for which a taste needs to be aquired, that was an accident. I certainly don't think we should spend all of our precious listening time spinning discs we don't enjoy, in the hope of getting to like them.  And sometimes, I absolutely agree with you, a piece of music is just not going to appeal to us, and there is no good reason to force the issue. It has been my experience fairly often, though, going right back to my teenage years, that I may dislike an album on first listen and put it away, and then take it out again a few months or even years later, put it on, and find that something in me has changed, and I am now hearing things differently than I'd heard them before. It all depends, I suppose, on our reasons for that initial dislike. Often, I thnk we might dislike an album because it conflicts in some fundamental way with our expectations, either of the album or band specifically or of music more broadly. In this case--and again I need to be clear that I am speaking only from experience and not suggesting how anyone else "should" listen to music--I have often found it the case that my expectations were in some key way narrow, and when they either broadened by themselves as a result of exposure to a range of new experiences, or were broadened deliberately through effort on my part, my appreciation of previously unappreciated music increased, and the fabric of my life was enriched in some small way. I suppose I might wrap up by saying that if I only listened to what I liked on first hearing, I would presently have little or no appreciation for certain whole genres and sub-genres of music, prog and otherwise, that have become so much a part of my life that I cannot imagine what my mind would be without them.

However, I don't like Genesis too (apart of Selling England and The Lamb), even if I think I'm deeply in Symphonic prog. I'm ignorant about Rush and Zappa. I never heard IQ and I have recently discovered NEKTAR, but I  enjoyed their psychedelic debut more than all the rest.

So you are not alone in feeling "strange".

I can't suggest you anything about Genesis, but if you have found Close to the Edge too hard, you can approach YES from something easier  as Going for the One.  

You don't have to like everything, of course. 

To the YES fans: in general people who doesn't like YES says it's because of Steve Howe's guitar.

Did you have the same kind of feedback?

It's ok not to like Yes or Genesis. It's ok if you don't like RPI, prog-metal, neo-prog, anything. The problem is when you don't like any of these but you love Magma.... 

Definitively, as long as ya like Crimson, yer okay, there's nothing wrong, and you should feel good about yourself.

The biggest problem with the definition of "prog" ... is just that ... saying that ELP or Genesis or Yes were symphonic or not, is crazy. Their music is influenced by many things and some of what they do does have symphonic elements in it ... but they are not exactly ... just symphonic, or all symphonic.

 

The issue is that we think of keyboards being used as some kind of symphonic arrangement, instead of it just being one instrument in the whole thing. And this can be bad. Really bad! In the case of ELP, Keith did his best not to sound like an orchestra ... and many times play the leyboards as "one instrument" ... but it's hard to say that about Yes and Genesis, when you hear the massive string sounds and such. At least Keith simply mashed up the organ sound to be harsher and with a synthesizer edge (1st album) which only made the instrument bigger and sounding stronger than it ever had.

 

And remember that in those days, synthesizers were used as "instruments" instead of being an "orchestra" now. And this is a massive difference, because then they would incorporate weird, strange, far out sounds to help create the tapestry that we came to love. Today, almost no one does that and the beauty of that experimentation or you being able to associate a sound with something inside yourself ... is almost totally gone. There are not very many keyboard players out there that are using the synthesizers as anything but a replacement for an orchestra. So considering them "symphonic" today, is completely different than they were 40 years ago! ... you got to see this in your head, as it is important. Almost all listeners today do not understand the experiments and the work that was done that developed the synthesizer. But sadly it stopped being a synthesizer and became an orchestra replacement!

 

And a lot of that difference and definition is lost under the carpet in "prog" ... someone uses Miroslav Philnarmonic and plays the same notes but is using string sounds and then adds flute sounds on another midi channel and then choir sounds on another midi channel, and all of a sudden this is symphonic ... and it isn't! ... it IS creative and composed, but by classical definition, it is NOT ... because it is not a symphony, it is an "idea of a symphony" ... but this is 2010, and symphonies are in the past ... dead .. gone ... so a composition with all that ... yeah ... can be called symphonic.

 

I happen to like things like Guru Guru, Incredible String Band and many others that are extremely progressive, mostly because of the eccentric definition of what they did, and instrumentation, but by the "definition" here, these would not be progressive because ... they have no keyboards many times! And it takes away the beauty of so many musicians that did some amazing things in their lives, but we are not going to spend time enjoying them because ... of a term ... that does not clarify the music AT ALL.

 

All in all, between you and I ... stop listening to it NOW, if all you are looking for is one thing. It's not for you! You are probably a musician and should be making your own, and not expect to find it somewhere else in the furthest corners of the universe or the spheres.

 

This is one of the reasons why I say ... listen to the music ... nothing else! And stop worrying about what someone says and wether it is symphonic, or some other sort of identification to help you find the commercial tastes out there. You either go for the gusto and the music, or quit right now!

 

Theres nothing wrong with you. It took me years to like Yes. Besides, people have different opinions. Not everybody is going to love the most popular prog bands.

 

Not because of the music, btw ... because they turned their shows into a waste of pyrotechnics and electricity! And for all the talent they would be playing Benny or the sheriff, and while fun, it was a waste of the talent indeed!

 

Still is!

 

What you like depends on many factors. What happened with Genesis happened also with Police and U2 (not the same guy) and I can't stand with both of them.

 

The strange thing is that I love Rutherford's Smallcreep's day and Phillips' The Geese and the Ghost (even the parts sung by Phil Collins), so I think it's really because of Pink Floyd

Paravion wrote: rod65 wrote: Paravion wrote:   You know how it is with prog music. It takes time for one to get into it. Especially "harder" stuff... That's what I meant by saying that I tried to like them. Really?  The cure is trying not to care about disliking yes or genesis. I agree. While I think it is often worth the effort to get a taste for something you don't at first like, it is not a failure if you don't manage to acquire that particular taste, no matter how many other people have it. Some music, no matter what its merits, just doesn't do it for us. Personally, though I can recognize the excellence of Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, for instance, it has never really moved me. Not a failing: just a fact. I'm not sure I agree. It reminds me of what Gentle Giant wrote inside the gatefold of "Acquiring the taste" "Acquiring the taste is the second phase of sensory pleasure. If you gorged yourself on our first album, then relish the finer flavours (we hope) of this, our second offering. It's our goal to expand the frontiers of contemporary popular music at the risk of being very unpopular. We have recorded each composition with the one thought - that it should be unique, adventurous and fascinating. It has taken every shred or our combined musical and technical knowledge to achieve this.  From this outset we have abandoned all preconceived thoughts on blatant commercialism. Instead we hope to give you something far more substantial and fulfilling. All you need to do is sit back and acquire the taste"   Writing something like that is a HUGE turn-off and makes it less likely that I end up liking the album.  (It's actually an okay album - and I like Genlte Giant (s/t is my fave). But what's with the pretentiousness and self-indulgence?- It's almost as if it is ironic?) "While I think it is often worth the effort to get a taste for something you don't at first like" Not sure. If I don't like an album first time I listen to it - I just don't like it, and it's unlikely that I give it another try in the near future. It's very rare though that I buy and listen to albums that I actually dislike.  If it's one of those annoying albums that requires acquisition of taste, I many times don't 'get it' at first listen - but I'm able to judge whether it has potential (or at least - I tell myself) - and if I feel it has potential, I listen to it a lot, and I end up (hopefully) liking the album.  But it doesn't make an album better than other albums just because it requires that you have to "sit back and acquire the taste".

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Yeah, I always thought that quote was pretty smug as well, even though I agree with it (and love that album.)

I don't think there's anything I can say that everyone else has already said.  Don't try to force yourself to like an artist, just know what you like and like what you know.  (Oops, you don't like that band.)  I actually tried very hard to convince myself that I enjoyed A Trick of the Tail and Wind & Wuthering as much as the Gabriel-era Genesis albums, when the truth is is they pale in comparison in just about every way.  So yeah, there's nothing wrong with you.

 

I always thought early Genesis were overrated as a prog band.

Foxtrot and Trespass i really like, but I don't think much of Nursery Cryme. While the Lamb and England are quite good I think Gabriel holds them back a bit imo

 

Too bad that you can not read the post that defines things better for you. You are looking for something imaginary and everyone's suggestion is going to confuse you more, instead of helping you define your music tastes and why's for it.

 

How about Peter Gabriel solo's ?

You're welcome. I agree with you in most respects. 

. It has been my experience fairly often, though, going right back to my teenage years, that I may dislike an album on first listen and put it away, and then take it out again a few months or even years later, put it on, and find that something in me has changed, and I am now hearing things differently than I'd heard them before. It all depends, I suppose, on our reasons for that initial dislike.

I suppose it comes down to different ways of disliking an album. When I first listened to 'Unavailable' by the Residents (years back, and my first residents experience) it  somewhat scared me. I certainly did not enjoy it. I kept it in my collection and revisited it once or twice a year. Suddenly (i remember that particular sunday morning) it got to me, and it remains now one of my favorite albums. 

But some albums I really dislike to such an extend that I find it very certain that I always will so. Yes' Big Generator and the Asia albums are good examples of that kind of disliking. I don't intend to give them another try (at present state of mind), and they are not to be found in my record collection anymore (I have some strange idea that an album has to be 'worthy' of my collection and from time to time I get rid of albums that I in no way relate to or like. )

I suppose my response was triggered by the word 'effort'. I don't feel it's an effort to listen to an album - no matter how complex or simple it might be - and I have no idea what kind of 'effort' I should employ in order to like a particular album - other than just to listen, of course.  'Effort' has some unfortunate conscious elements  attached to its meaning.

If I don't like an album, there can be many (indefinate, I hope) reasons for and ways of disliking that pårticular album - just as there are many possible reasons for and ways of liking one. It's my belief that most of these reasons and ways are in fact unconscious.  When post-rationalizing, I can only eye the (somewhat obvious) fact that there are 'good' and 'bad' ways of disliking an album. Somehow I have to make a judgement - but I rely solely on my intuition in that respect - it has made me discover much good music, and I'm pleased with it, and I trust it.     

I was also responding to the (seemingly) widespread notion that an album is better when it's of a such complex and difficult nature that listening to it has to be 'learnt'  in order to enjoy it  - and if learnt - it's more rewarding eventually. 

I really don't think that is the way it works.

Try upgrading your choice of drugs!  It worked for me back in the 70's.   

My college roommate LOVED Tull, ELP, and Yes, but could not STAND any Genesis at all!   Eventually, I got him good & stoned, and played "Voyage of the Acolyte" by Steve Hackett for him.   He quite liked it....when "Trick of the Tale" came out, he was hooked on Genesis and became their biggest fan, ever.  

Now, this is not to imply that consuming illicit substances enhances the prog experience....in no way to I condone such activities!!  However, if you live in Jamaica or Amsterdam, why not?  

I don't kown what the note actually IS. But it surely seems  pretentious, pompous, arrogant and elitist.

Even if I don't live in Amsterdam and I've never been in Jamaica, that kind of stuff worked for me with Pink Floyd and Vangelis. I've never been able to get into Genesis. What is strange, maybe, is that I like Steve Hackett, Ant Phillips and Smallcreep's day...I was deeply into Fish's Marillion...so why I don't like Genesis?

Can it be because of that drummer/singer ?  

 

There is nothing wrong with you.  No matter who it is that says you should like these bands, you don't.  Reviews, whether formal or not, are merely recommendations.  It is you who has to listen, and not anybody else.  It took me a long time to get into Genesis, even when I was a major Tull-skull and Yes-head.  To this day, I have yet to develop a taste for Van der Graaf Generator, and yet I am a big fan of 70's prog - I've been listening to it for a loooooooong time.  I think you can appreciate both Yes and Genesis, but liking them is another thing altogether.  Don't beat yourself up over it.  Note Octopus-4s signature quote, it's quite pertinent.

Heh!  I wondered if you have been listening only to post-Gabriel Genesis?  There isn't enough pipe-weed in Gandalf's garden to get you to love most of THAT stuff!!  

With that being said, it can be difficult to love EVERY bit of an artist's catalog...as much as I love King Crimson and worship Fripp, he has produced much material that I am ambivalent about, in the least.  

Jump around the catalogs of Genesis and Yes a bit, something may stick.  Both bands perform at the very top of their art, featuring some of the best musicianship of the era!   However, they seemed to really peak about mid-70's.  

You obviously have some excellent tastes, I share your appetite for jazz-rock fusion!   Try "Relayer" for Yes, and "Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" for Genesis.  Check back soon!  

But to explicitly state a hope that the music you are able to make will be "far more substantial and fulfilling" and to have a goal "to expand the frontiers of contemporary popular music" is overly ambitious and also, I would say,  pretentious. When reading these explicitly expressed goals and hopes, and also considering the manner in which they are written, it seems that they are also making claims, though not explicit, that the music they are able to make can in fact deliver the hope and achieve the goal.

If you put that much energy into liking 'We can't dance' or 'big generator' you'd probably love them too

Hey

I agree with you

But If I don't like GG music it's not because of pretention or not, it's because it's NOT good music!

But thats a subjective matter anyway. 

That said there are people who should be trying to make something 'fresh' and 'new' and 'push boundaries'

My housemates Cat thinks I'm too clingy, so there you go, I am a bad guy, well spotted

HAH!  Want to bet??  Ugh!!  Certain albums are beyond hope!  I'd put "Union" in that pile also.