re: ELP, Haven't aged well?
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Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
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Topic: re: ELP, Haven't aged well?
Posted By: Brendan
Subject: re: ELP, Haven't aged well?
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 22:40
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Hi I've read a lot of 'prog' dscussions and forums and ELP is often considered as one of one of the main prog bands of the 70's. In fact they were one of the leading prog acts of the seventies, weren't they? Yet today I find there to be a lot less support for ELP than their main contemporaries. A brief look at your PA top hundred and you notice bands like Gentle Giant, Rush and Van Der Graaf Generator, Italian bands like Banco and PFM, and EVEN Supertramps 'Crime of the century' seem to be rated well above ELP. All of those afforementioned bands got into your 'top 50' but ELP didn't. Even Kansas' 'Leftoverture' is rated above 'Brain Salad Surgery', something which I totally did not expect to see on a prog site. Also, I don't really hear a lot of ELP influence in the modern prog I have listened to so far. Granted there's a lot out there I haven't heard, but from the bands I've listened to, I can sense that these bands want to sing like Peter Gabriel, they want to have Steve Hackett's guitar tone, but I can't really sense any desire to sound like ELP. There's no-one like trying to model their singing on Greg Lake the way FIsh tries to with P Gab... Now this is not a personal issue, I quite like the band, I probably like them more than a lot of 70's prog bands, but I've noticed they're not really getting the same credibility all these years later, as say Yes would. It doesn't help that they only really have four classic albums. Anything after 'Brain Salad ...' is kind of seen as past their prime and that was only their fourth studio album! Any thoughts on this?
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Replies:
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 22:42
I'm having a little trouble with this concept |
Brendan wrote:Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 23:04
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I don't know if one of the main, but surely one of the most representative and popular in the 70's.
Now, I believe the problem with ELP is that they reached their peak and everything was downhill after that, after BSS there's not a single great album.
Genesis despite the loss of Gabriel, still released at least two albums after The Lamb, Yes released a couiple good albums after Relater, but ELP who didn't lost a single member, released the average Works I and then, nothing even relevant.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 23:25
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I'd call it one of the main, or core, bands of the Prog movement. I don't think the music has aged gracefully, not that ELP ever was that graceful (okay, they came out with some lovely music). The band was very fashionable, but their bombastic, flashy, rather excessive approach largely went out of style (ELP is something of a Prog embarrassment to some as it represents a lot off what what people made fun of Prog for). I rather think that some of their spirit lives on in bands such as Dream Theater. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 23:30
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^I agree, but you've got to know that many ELP fans are rather DT "haters", and vice-versa.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 23:37
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^ That's true. Incidentally, I find ELP pop music such as "From the Beginning" quite timeless, and "Endless Enigma" will always have a special place in my heart. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 23:58
I love 'From the Beginning', and also very much like the inferior 'Still You Turn Me On'. Not a fan of 'Lucky Man' though.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 01:10
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Must be about the fourth thread at least on this very subject in the last few months!
Ivan is correct about ELP going badly downhill after Brain Salad Surgery leaving us with a somewhat truncated legacy of decent albums. But given they were a 3 peice this is not bad (Rush are the exception that proves the rule) Also Ivan says they didn't lose a single member which is correct if you ignore ELPowell. ELP could have done with a change in personel to bring some fresh inspiration. Emerson was the main composer with Lake just providing the odd 3 minute song and Palmer absolutely nothing. This was a major problem.
It would have been interesting if ELP had a direct 'competitor'. The nearest was the second incarnation of UK (Wetton,Jobson and Bozzio) that expressed their intent to replace ELP.Danger Money is a great album btw.
There was also Triumvirat but I'm not going there!
Nowadays most of the ELP imitators come from Japan (Ars Nova and Gerard the most high profile). ELP's very technical style never sat well with the neo prog movement which was more about songs and less about showbiz.
I agree with the comment about Dream Theater carrying the spirit of ELP. But I would also add the criminally underated English band Muse who do a lot of flashy bombastic stuff as well. I adore them and so do many others.
All in all the important thing is that you get enjoyment from what you listen to regardless of whether they get recognition. Personally I like to enjoy my music in peice and don't need to read or listen to critcs making inane comments about music that I love.Flying under the radar is not always a bad thing!
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 01:23
That's the problem in my opinion.
Yes released Relayer but after three years they released the decent Going for the one, went down again with Tormato but very soon and despite the loss of Jon Anderson who is a symbol of the band, they released the outstanding Drama, for that moment it was 1981 and nobody cared for old Symphonic formula.
Genesis launched the weird The Lamb, Peter left,. but still they managed to release ATOTT and W&W which were both excellent. When Hackett left, still they released the Pop - Proggy ATTW# and Duke, but that point it was obvious that the band was going towards Pop, so people forgot tthem and lived of the 7 excellent albums.
ELP was in their peak in 1973, old Symphoonic was still growing, and they vanished (except for the Live triple album) until 1978 when they came back with the average Works.
People expected something even bigger than BSS for 1974, but while Yes and Genesis released their most adventurous Relayer and The Lamb, ELP just disappeared, leaving people expecting for more, when they came back in 78, the first golden era was dying and the album wasn't that good.
So while the debacle of the other big bands was progressive and people got used to the idea, ELP vanished the day after they released their best album.
Iván
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 01:44
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ELP are one of the most excessive examples of Prog. Prog fans may still like them despite (or even because) of that, but for the rest of humanity they are nothing but that plump dinosaur from ancient times. The emphasis on keys and synths sure hasn't helped, their ageing badly is not just because of what they play, but largely due to the arrangements and the sound. |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 02:10
Whilst I'd hesitate to use the word 'haters' there is some germ of truth here; bottom line is ELP/DT cannot be compared in any way shape or form - two totally different kinds of music, so most likely, two totally different fan bases with their own opinions on the other. Personally, I like both bands, so buck the trend a tad (incidentally, to those who believe DT get more than their fair share of 'haters', you should have been around this forum in the early days of 2004/2005 when ELP were serious whipping boys  )
I think the proiblem with ELP is whereas others of the prog greats continued releasing fairly good (if not great) material, ELP had a halcyon period of anout 4 years when they released stunning albums & performed great shows, then hit the skids & did nothing more of any real purpose, focus or (to my mind) worth. The same could be said of the individual members... look at the solo careers of (eg) Hackett, Gabriel and (yes...) Collins; different paths, different audiences, but huge success - what of E, L & P's solo careers....??? 
ELP had a great time for 4/5 years & produced some great music; it's just a shame their reputation has fallen since the late 1970s; bar a couple of lukewarm reunions, they just faded into the mists of nostalgia - only time will tell if this year's reunion will fare better. ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 02:56
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The problem may be the media too. All of them world wide deride/make fun out of ELP and think they are the most unfashionable thing to come from this planet since the black death plague (in the year 1348). Being bombarded by the media every 24/7, I think most of us, if not all of us, does not want to be regarded as nerds, village idiots and unfashionable. That's only an instinctive human nature reaction. In other words; we are cowards. I do rated Brain Salad Surgery among the five best ever albums of all time. I would put the first three albums among the twenty best ever albums too. Welcome My Friends in my top five of the best live albums. I also rate Pictures and Live at Wright very highly. That means I am the local village idiot, then. Media pressure is the answer to your question. |
Posted By: Brendan
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 03:52
Like 'most known' and 'best'. To my mind the 'main' four bands of prog in the 70's are Genesis, Yes, ELP and King Crimson, though I have to admit Pink Floyd might also be a contender. An obscure, lesser known band wouldn't be a 'main' band I'm not sure if they have the same standing in the progressive rock community today as say 'Yes'
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 04:24
I dare to disagree with this. We are discussing the 'ageing process' here. ELP doesn't sound aged because "the media" says they do. Whatever "the media" says about ELP, they also say about Yes and Genesis. But Yes and Genesis don't sound aged at all. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 04:32
| The problem is in the music. Not that it's bad (I love it), but fast interplay and fat keys sounds have lost their place in the public taste since the late 70s to "normal" guitar rock. When there was a slight return of the keyboard sound in the mainstream, with the 80s new-wave, they had a completely different sound, and that didn't stay long in the public taste either. |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 04:49
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Oops.......... I have totally misunderstood the whole question here. Next time, I will read the question properly.
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Posted By: Brendan
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 05:14
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A Quote from Bruce Eder (allmusic) "Emerson, Lake & Palmer were progressive rock's first supergroup. Greeted by the rock press and the public as something akin to conquering heroes, they succeeded in broadening the audience for progressive rock from hundreds of thousands into tens of millions of listeners, creating a major radio phenomenon as well." But look at that top 100 PA list, bands like Rush, Camel and Gentle Giant seem to have a lot more respect years later.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 06:40
I like ELP but it is true that their older stuff aged the best.  And it does seem fairly typical that once a prog band jumps off the prog wagon they can never quite get back on. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: raindance
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 07:11
| ELP were too adventorous for the mainstream and so didn't get it. Emerson was a pioneer in keyboard sounds/technology that are still being replicated today. You mention Genesis! well they weren't great musicians so were limited in their creativity and so made more accessible music that hasn't aged very well at all! |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 07:32
| it does not matter a bit to me if ELP has "aged well" or not, or what the critics thought and said, either then or now-the fact remains that some of their music, for me, is timeless (especially the first album), and, at the risk of sounding egocentric, if it works for me, then that is all that matters! |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 08:20
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While it's true that ELP had the least impressive discography of the big prog bands, and less impressive than many of the less popular prog bands like Caravan, Gong and so on. They still had 4 albums that are very much worth owning. They don't deserve the bashing that they have recieved constantly for 4 decades.
Tarkus is probably the weakest of their first 4 because side B is a real mixed bag (Bitche's Crystal, Time and a Place and Infinite Space being the gooduns, I think Jeremy Bender and Are You Readdy Eddie were included mainly to prove to critics that ELP didn't take themselves that seriously) but the title track alone makes it an essential addition to your prog collection. It's my favorite prog epic that isn't from Yes or Pink Floyd.
The other 3 are VERY cohesive all around. The s/t is a tremendous debut, Trilogy is ELP at their most tasteful and melodic but Brain Salad Surgery is the crowning acievement for me, heh, even Benny the Bouncer is good for a laugh. It has everything that made the band great. The only thing that would have made it better is if When the Apple Blossoms Bloom in the Windmills of Your Mind I'll Be Your Valentine and the title track were included. Though they do make it as bonus tracks on the deluxe edition.
The Works albums do have some good material on them. But talk about a sharp decline ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 08:54
What do musical skills have to do with creativity? It's usually the other way round, it's your limitations that encourage you to be creative. Great musicianship can even lead to creative lazyness. ELP and DT are good examples of that. Everyone who can play can produce many notes, the challenge is to make something meaningful with them. Like Genesis did indeed. PS. Genesis = no great musicians? limited creativity? I won't even go into that. PS2. ELP too adventorous for the mainstream? if there was ever one prog mainstream band it was ELP! PS3. Don't think I don't like ELP. Their debut and a couple of scattered songs are fantastic. Their style just didn't age well  |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 09:05
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Yeah I never got the whole Genesis weren't great musicians thing, they were all very skilled musicians, yeah even Phil... and Mike, always the underdog.
Bonnek is right to a point that virtuoso musicians can be very lazy and DT certainly qualify but I think ELP were very inspired and creative at least from 70 to 73. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 09:15
You actually got everything wrong here. Genesis Gabriel-era were really quite obscure, while (the silly and dated music of) ELP sold millions of albums and filled stadiums. Of course all that had changed by the end of the 70's but not because ELP were too adventurous ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 09:16
^^ I didn't want to write a whole page so I generalised a bit  I shouldn't have said ELP and DT are good examples of that, but ELP and DT have many songs that are good examples of that. |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 09:36
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I honestly don't care how dated something is, I don't listen to music to be "modern", in fact the more distinctly of it's time something is the more fascinating I may find it to be. It's always interesting to observe how music has evolved over the years.
That being said I don't think Genesis are dated, of all the prog bands their sound was the least rooted in the trends of the 70s, they have always had a very timeless sound. Now ELP, maybe they are dated but I don't care. I love the moog and hammond. Aesthetically it still sounds awesome, just because it sounds "70-ish" doesn't turn me off, why should I be turned off by something for sounding like it was recorded in my favorite decade of music? Especially when it was.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 11:39
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I got to disagree with those who say that their "sound didn't age well". What sound? Bombast of organ and synths? Classical leanings?
They just aren't for everyone, but neither they're the most adventurous band around. They were one heck-of a Prog band with an original sound, but some are not fond of that 'original sound'. I like some of their music, but for me the main detractor was that their albums weren't really consistent in great/memorable material.
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 11:59
^ yes, Bombast of organ and synths. You put that very well  And I agree to the rest of your post as well by the way. Well, except the ageing bit. ELP really have very little replay value for me. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 12:05
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Pablo, "aging" in this case does not refer to the object of our debate but to the way the object is perceived. Yes, of course the "bombast of organ and synths" by ELP are the same , what changed was the perception. Not too many people can now like "bombast of organ and synths" (whether the music is good or not).
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 12:05
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To a certain extent I kind of get what people are saying regarding ELP's music sounding dated, but I think that this probably applies to far more prog bands than we would care to admit. The whole 70's prog sound is dated. Doesn't mean that you still can't like it. ------------- 
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 12:22
That's my point. If someone considers ELP's bombastic sound dated, then why not consider Genesis and Yes dated for their own kind-of style?
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 12:25
I answered both questions, to the second one I said this:
"They just aren't for everyone, but neither they're the most adventurous band around. They were one heck-of a Prog band with an original sound, but some are not fond of that 'original sound'. I like some of their music, but for me the main detractor was that their albums weren't really consistent in great/memorable material."
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 12:30
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That's a good position in itself, but it doesn't explain the great variation (read: decrease) of the number of fans.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 12:32
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It is about perception, but a lot of 70's progresssive rock (and a fair amount of 60's music too) has a "timeless" quality to my ears. A lot of 80's music sounds really dated to me, but other music has this timeless quality. 80's RIO/ Avant commonly sounds less dated to me than 80's Neo-Prog. I think part of that has to do with not being so familiar with the styles of music that avant prog groups were making at the time; whereas, I hear that typical 80's influence in Neo-Prog that I was familiar with at the time. So the RIO sounds fresher to these years. I think I can extend the same principle to quite an extent to 70's prog that sounds dated and not so dated to these ears, but it's not really that.... Some remains fresh, and some sounds hackneyed (not saying it is) and stale now. "From the Beginning", though of its time, still sounds, mostly, fresh to me (and quite timeless), but something like "Tarkus" does not. Though there are definite indicators in the song as to when it was made, a song like "From the Begginning" would be that much more difficult to figure out fairly precisely when it was made for me than "Tarkus". One style dropped out of fashion, and the other continued with variation. Another poppish song that sounds timeless to me is Mellow Candle's "Messenger Birds", I could not guess that was released in 1972 (and recorded in '711, I think). I love a lot of music that is very dated (very obviously of its time) -- that can make music appeal more to me -- especially with 60's music. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 12:33
Tormato is better than Drama |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 12:36
Ah, you're right there.
 For that, a good explanation I don't have. I would need to know if the 70's fans of ELP were really fans of their music.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 12:37
Nah, don't care Rocktopus, a couple of members (Progger and Raindance) used to team to attack Genesis with extreme hatred, that would be OK if Tony R hadn't found suspicious connections between the two.
Anybody who says Genesis members have limited creativity doesn't know what he's talking about.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 12:38
I would never have guessed it was recorded 1299 years ago!  ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 12:44
That's a typo, of course I meant to say that I think it was recorded in a 7/11 (convenience store). ;) ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 13:03
As somebody who is a big fan of Yes and Genesis but didn't get ELP, even after listening to BSS & Tarkus, I wouldn't say that their sound is entirely dated. But the sound effects on Toccata? Definitely dated.
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 13:11
The synths on Tormato? Definitely dated as well.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 13:48
Blasphemer!!! Tocatta was the ELP song that helped get me into prog before I was really into prog. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 14:20
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ELP has never been received well generally on this site. Genesis and Yes have far more positive support here. When people parrot the “bombastic” label your only quoting rock critics in the 70's that hated prog to begin with. When you are talking about ELP popularity you have to remember they were not just among the most popular bands in the progressive style they were one of the most popular rock bands in the world. From 1971 to 1974 (and even in 1977) they were selling out the biggest arenas in the cities they played sometimes playing multiple dates in those arenas. For example (and comparison) in Los Angeles in 1977 they sold out three nights at the Long Beach area (about 15,000 people). Genesis the same year could not sell out the Forum (17,000) for one night. Yes played one night at Long Beach. Only Pink Floyd on the Animals tour did as well selling out Dodger Stadium. ELP co headlined with Deep Purple in 1974 one of the highest attend shows with 500,000 people at the old Ontario Spreedway for Cal Jam 1. Being that big meant a lot of critics didn't like them . Being that big allowed them to have incredible ostentatious shows (but nothing like the set Pink Floyd did with The Wall and Animals). So they were far more accepted by the general rock fan much more than Genesis, VDGG, GG and even Yes. In terms of today they Keith and Greg were selling out their shows in the 1500-2500 seat places they played on their recent tour. Pretty good by today’s prog band standard. They are also headlining as ELP the High Voltage Festival in July, People are still wanting to see these guys. Rumors of their death are highly exaggerated. After the Works tour in 1977-78 ELP never did get that high again To me ELP lost its fans the minute that digital Yamaha showed up. Keith abandoned the organ for this and changed their overall sound drastically. But for the subject abandoning prog let me ask another question how many 20 minute epics appeared in 1978? Genesis and Yes were already shortening their works by this time. The problem was ELP could not adapt to the pop world as well as some of the other groups did hence making subsequent releases sporadic and kind of all of the place in terms of style. As for solo careers none of them really pursued them vigorously. Carl had his stint in Asia but Keith was content to release albums that were import only in the US and soundtracks. Keith and Carl did that album with Robert Berry 3 to the power of 3 Greg treid the hardest and was met lukewarm at best. . Love Beach being the most criticized of all their albums actually contained some very interesting piano work on Officer and a Gentleman which took up the entire second side. Most fans didn't relate because it didn’t follow Tarkus or Karn Evil as much as it did the song Trilogy. I hear elements of what made Take A Pebble and Trilogy so good. Someone mentioned UK and ELP has a section in MoOaG that is very similar in style about 12 minutes in. To me it has some very good work in it and I put in high esteem with their other epics. The biggest difference is has a lot less “bombast” than any of the others. The biggest criticism of ELP is not the music on that album it is the cover art and the name of the album. Listening to the album I find there are 3 very unlistenable songs that should have been on one of Greg's solo albums. The lead song is so so but the lyrics ruin it for me but some good keyboard and drum work behind them. For you is a pretty good song. Carnio is a very good classical adaptation and the second side is very good. I would choose this one over Works II and In the Hot Seat which were just awful record company fulfillments. I think Love Beach is over criticized and for all the wrong reasons. I would give this one 3.5 stars. I think their music influences
a lot of modern prog artists. Not so
much as Genesis for sure and somewhat Yes but I hear their music in Neal Morse’s
music, Jordan Rudess, Izz, Mars Hollow, Echolyn, Spocks Beard and others. Not
so much basing their sound on them but in composition and keyboard sounds. To me they are still an essential
influence and of the top bands of the genre for their early works. BTW some of us still prefer the analog synths to the digital samples of today. ------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 15:33
  
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 15:54
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Great post Garion. Thoroughly enjoyed reading that. I also have a sneaking suspicion that Love Beach is really not that bad. Take out the risible A Taste Of My Love, make Canario a bit longer and the album would be a 3 star for me. The cover is hard to justify though
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 16:56
I suppose Love Beach isn't that bad, but are there any fans here of the cover? I've only got Officer And A Gentleman in a box set (i did hear the original album in it's entirety many many years ago) but compare that one to their last epic Pirates... ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 18:06
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Well you can always download it from IT Tunes or Amazon or wherever and you will never have to look at the cover. Like I said the first 4 songs are pretty hard to swallow so I never play them. But For You is pretty good and then Canario and the second side make up for it. So 29 of the 42 minutes are listenable. Not sure has this ever been remastered? If not it probably could use it. No it is not on par with the earlier works and even some of the stuff on Works 1 had more passion but it certainly does not deserve the outright crap label people put on it. Greg's voice is in great form on this too. I think sometimes people pick up the same old arguments and paste them in every ELP thread. The other one I hate is how bad the second side of Tarkus is. No, it really isn't that bad. The problem to me as after listening to the suite it is hard to listen to any thing afterwards. Thanks for the kind words Richard. ELP will always have a kind place in my thoughts. Being a 17 year old senior in High School seeing them play the BSS tour they literally changed how I had thought and felt about music. I went home and practiced the piano harder than I ever had. Didn't do any good but they certainly inspired me. Just seeing the Emerson Lake tour a few weeks ago just solidified how good they are and how much I have missed them and their music live. Brian you really think Pirates with Officer? Hmmm I hadn't thought of that. That stupid Yamaha sound maybeand the concept but the piano parts remind me of Trilogy and even Take a Pebble in parts and for sure UK in the beginning of Letter From the Front. section of Officer. -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Drifter
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 18:15
| Has anyone listened to Love Beach lately? |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 18:23
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It's weird, before I signed to PA I didn't know that stuff like Owner of a Lonely Heart, Turn it On Again and Love Beach were so hated.
I grew up with ELP's Fanfare for the Common Man: Best Of, and I loved the tune, Love Beach, still like it. The album though, isn't really great.
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Posted By: Brendan
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 18:29
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I actually think it's something to do with some 'eccentric' things they did that might have been palatable in the 70's, but definitely don't wash today. Modern listeners don't really want to hear 'joke' songs, classical adaptations, Lake's love-ballads and rag-time piano songs. It might have gone down 'ok' in the 70's, classical adaptations were definitely seen as a good think then but modern audiences won't really dig that old line. Also, the jokey nature of their music, it's clear to me that although they were one of the most popular prog acts of the 70's, modern audiences prefer the more serious, focused works of bands like Gentle Giant, Camel, Van Der Graaf Generator, who were not as highly regarded at the time, but have 'aged better' I guess.
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Posted By: Drifter
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 18:41
The songs you mentioned were sort of an answer to new wave and punk. Each group tried to adapt to the changing musical climate that was happening at the time. Of course, Genesis was the most successful, commercially, with Duke and Ababcab and I quite enjoyed Yes's cross-over attempts, especially Drama. ELP, however, was kind of left behind and even their most die-hard fans were embarrassed by Love Beach. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 18:41
Yeah, I double checked and The Return Of The Maticore box set has Pirates following Officer. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 20:00
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Ah here we go on ELP again. As others have mentioned, their light burned very brightly for a while, actually for a pretty good while in terms of rock band longevity.
Somehow, they managed to lose their extended rock audience. It's not just a prog thing. Just ask AC/DC.
After BSS they more or less lost me. Works, while decent, was probably a misstep. I mean, I didn't want to hear a side each of E and L and P, I wanted to hear ELP.
And the live shows became a bit too extravagant. Spinning pianos? What is it with keyboard players? I don't know much about Liberace, but once the candelabras showed up, well he was done, if he had ever not been done in the first place. Even Elton John, with the masterful 11-17-70, was once a first-rate, knock-out rock pianist. But then all the fluff started showing up. It's too bad, really. People (me included) remember the spinning piano and how over the top it was. We (me included) forget just how great the band was on the Tarkus-era tour. No frills, no bells-and-whistles (well maybe a gong or two), just three guys playing the most amazing music I'd ever heard.
Unfortunately, it's the latter stuff that critics (and one-time fans) remember. They don't, or choose not to, remember the incredible music on the first five albums (counting Pictures). Somehow that doesn't happen quite so much with the other prog giants of the day. Yes is forgiven for the early albums, and most of the later. Pink Floyd always gets a pass.
ELP hit the ground running, and they weren't running any marathon pace, they were in a full-out sprint, and when they found it was a marathon well, they were plain winded. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 23:57
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^ Was ELP really more extravagant than anyone else? I remember Jethro Tull having a costumed zebra come out on stage and sh*t black and white tennis balls that Ian Anderson picked up and juggled. How is a spinning piano (which was only used a few times) any weirder than that? Or the giant Pig balloon the size of a Macy's parade balloon that Pink Floyd had in between two smoke stacks that were on each side of the stage. Back to ELP they used cannons at the Isle of Wright. Keith had his theremin that shot out fireworks and then the computer lights overlay on the back of the moog and organ at the end of Karn Evil 9 the revolving drum riser. Keith throwing his Hammond around and sticking knives in the keys but he had been doing that since The Nice. The video screens on the 1977 tour was the only thing added to that. What else? That was it. They didn't even use lasers that I remember. -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 26 2010 at 01:12
The bonus tracks are rehearsal versions of Canario,Taste Of My Love and Letters From The Front. The sound is a bit raw as to be expected and perhaps gives an idea of what the tracks might have sounded live (ELP never played a single track off the album live).
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Posted By: raindance
Date Posted: May 26 2010 at 07:34
| Excellent post Garion! ELP are still referred to as rocks first supergroup and as you rightly say, were one of the biggest bands in the world. Their music was very complex and challenging, so it was very difficult for neo-bands to replicate their sound, whilst Genesis was more straight forward! I remember Genesis having to cancell many shows on their 74 tour whilst ELP were selling out stadiums, Genesis didn't achieve that until they becale a 'pop' band. |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 26 2010 at 11:33
I love the synth drum effects on Toccata, it's like an Atari 2600 gone insane. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 26 2010 at 11:50
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Toccata sucked me in because I was big monster movie fan at the time and it's a deliciously spooky track.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: May 26 2010 at 12:01
My brother describes it as "a madman on a pinball machine."
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 26 2010 at 12:04
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Toccata always makes me think of a gory battle on a dark and stormy night. Except that part makes me think of an arcade where every machine is possessed. I love it.
Ginastera was VERY impressed with ELP's adaptation of his piece, and said it captured the mood of his piece better than anyone else's version.
ELP really were the best at adapting classical works and putting them into a rock context much in the same way Zep were the best at adapting blues works and putting them into a hard rock context.
I don't really agree with people that ELP were w**kers, it's not any more w**king than what you hear in classical music. That never made sense to me, in classical music something is considered a masterpiece and when brought into a rock context it's considered structureless w**king. I really hate that word anyway.
Unfortunately a lot of critics and kids think anything that isn't 4/4 and verse/chorus/verse is self indulgent noise and instrumental music is inherently boring. What can ya do? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 26 2010 at 16:48
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For a start I do not find ELP's music dated at all, but I guess I'm in a minority. Difficult for me to understand why people do not appreciate them as much as I do, but here are some shots...
ELP were too good and had to be killed by the media and their competitors. Otherwise if they let them become even more popular the masses would be listening to classical music again? rock would derive into rock concertos 1 hour long? musicians less than those trained in a conservatory for 8 years would not be able to make a living in the modern music industry? no way, that had to be killed at any cost.
Emerson was really wanting to turn rock into classical territory, he showed that clearly and consistently, culminating in Works and its tour. The tour was so grandiose with the huge cost of the orchestra, and at the same time they started to receive the agressive bashing of the critics that they went bankrupt. I think this caused a huge depression and frustration on Keith. "I'm the best pianist / keyboardist in the rock scene worldwide and I can't pay my bills? Hey, something must be wrong with the system!". He lost his inspiration.
The cherry on the cake was that Keith was the only trully brilliant creative soul in ELP. Other bands like Genesis, Yes, Floyd etc had more than one member who could compose good music, so they supported each other and even if one might have a bit of a creative low, the others could balance and you might not feel a huge drop in the overall quality of a new album. For ELP however, when Keith's genius froze, the band was dead.
Keith would not swim in more poppy waters as Yes and Genesis did (he did eventually surrender with Robert Berry, In the Hot Seat etc but that was quite some years after all the others had).
All this which killed them as from 1977 has for some reason survived until now in the mentality of many people.
But we are supposed to be proggers in 2010, free from what the critics said in 1977, and with hindsight the fact that the post-BSS albums were not so good should not affect our appreciation for their earlier masterpieces. Many early prog albums from other bands are praised here in PA as "being rediscoveries of lost gems" etc.
I really wonder how come PA members and prog fans in general can not reconcile themselves with ELP and praise again their great albums as "maybe once hated or underated, but now finally rediscovered masterpieces".
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 26 2010 at 20:43
Understand this in no way diminishes my appreciation of the first five albums.
Now everyone, all together:
And did those feet... ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 27 2010 at 01:05
Actually I find this quite funny!
Toccata is a brilliant track and I'm glad there are others that appreciate it. It was right on the cutting edge of what prog is all about and still stands the test of time.One of the highlights of BSS for sure.
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: May 27 2010 at 11:29
It is called a theremin. Not a synth. Just a device that makes weird sounds the closer you bring something to it such as your hand or when he would rub it on his ass. He modified his to shoot fireworks out of it. He used it on the recent E&L tour but didn't shoot fireworks out. of it but he did rub his ass with it. -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 27 2010 at 11:41
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Didn't they end up growing a bleu moldy fuzz?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 27 2010 at 11:58
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I want to point out that Fish is so 80s to begin with. Maybe there are people still trying to sing like Gabriel because they think prog Genesis should have never died, but it's not the contemporary singing style in much prog. I don't know what precisely is the reason for keyboards not being so important anymore in prog, but it may have to do with jazz/fusion becoming less popular from 80s onwards and prog rock emphasising the ROCK far more than prog (and with prog metal becoming a major force in the prog scene, guitar is simply non negotiable in prog now). But that doesn't necessarily mean ELP in particular haven't aged well, unless we are pop listeners (as in the ones who hop from one trend to another) rather than prog listeners. Palates brought up on music without much keyboard would find ELP a strange beast and cry "Dated" at them but how does the presence of keyboard, and specifically organ, by itself make them dated? Musically, it is still an interesting approach for the listener, it doesn't HAVE to have a frame of reference in contemporary trends to not be dated. Rather than dated, I would say ELP's albums are a little emotionally dispensable. I have this issue with Gentle Giant as well, that neither seem to be able to capture moods powerfully and emphasise rock n roll energy much more. Which is not a bad thing, but something like Starless...that's timeless and magical because the song has strong emotional resonance. It does not make ELP bad or deserving of so much criticism, but it may explain why Tarkus isn't always regarded as highly as, say, Red. It's not just ELP in any case, much prog, old or new, is like that...the emotional expression is rarely immediate or powerful or both. |
Posted By: Kojak
Date Posted: May 27 2010 at 12:06
Alison Goldfrapp plays her theremin with her c**t, and she recently said, that if there was enough money in the world, she would go out playing with an orchestra every night..Do you think she's unwittingly carrying the baton for Keith Emerson..?? |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 27 2010 at 18:07
Impressive.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: May 27 2010 at 19:32
Only on the Shows that Bill Nye appeared with them not Ian McDonald. -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 27 2010 at 21:49
------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 27 2010 at 22:23
| For me, they had great songs, but the problem is I don't really like any of their albums from start to finish (the closest one would be Pictures at an exhibition). They all had moments that I rather dislike, and it's not only the joke songs (they are short enough to be dismissed and not annoy, and a few I may actually like). On Tarkus most of the 2nd side I don't like (though a few songs are good), but even the title track has that "Mass" part which I don't like at all. Brain Salad Surgery would certainly be majestic if I liked Karn Evil 9, but that song really annoys me, so that's enough to not make it a masterpiece to me. |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: May 27 2010 at 23:31
Hm I am sure i read that somewhere however now i can't find anything about it so maybe you are correct however i can't find anything that says that is what he pulled out and walked around with. Strange thing was at the recent show it seemed he had it laying on top of his Korg and not the Moog. here is a pretty good article on his 70's set up. Answers some questions I read in another thread: http://www.brain-salad-surgery.de/keith_emersons_gear.html - http://www.brain-salad-surgery.de/keith_emersons_gear.html -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 28 2010 at 10:36
Wow! Thanks for that link. The Man and his keyboards! Spinning piano, synth growing wings, and all, it takes me back to the good ol' days. Also makes me wish I still had my L Hammond. I have a picture, somewhere, which I took, of him out zapping the audience with the ribbon controller. If I can find it, and it will be a treasure hunt to do so, I'll scan it and post it here. Long live ELP! I'll say it again: many flaws, but at the time there was no better band. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 29 2010 at 04:12
There's a young italian band called Barock Project whose leader Luca Zabbini is very much influenced by Keith (he says Keith is his idol). Especially their first album MisterioseVoci has very clear Emerson's influences, even if the music itself is different to ELP's. You can read my reviews of their 2 albums in PA.
You should check out their videos in You Tube: great cover of Pirates, Piano Concerto, first section of Tarkus... also Luca's own Piano Concerto No. 1 and several of their own songs. These guys are really good.
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Posted By: kplloyd
Date Posted: May 31 2010 at 17:25
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ELP hasn't aged well? Nonsense. It's the people who don't appreciate them (/five/ albums, are we forgetting the live "Pictures at an Exhibition"?) who have fallen ... it's /their/ inability to see these timeless masterpieces for what they are that should be getting discussed. |
Posted By: Radar Love
Date Posted: June 01 2010 at 04:11
| The band that has aged the worst is Genesis. Their 70's albums sound like they were produced in the 60's. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 01 2010 at 06:16
| This just in: No work of art is objectively good. |
Posted By: esky
Date Posted: June 01 2010 at 11:56
They've aged fine, thank you. I even saw Keith Emerson on a Harley a few years back at Wilshire and Santa Monica.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 01 2010 at 14:09
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