And I agree, prog puts me in a similarly speculative mindset.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560418/IQ-tests-are-unreliable-measure.html - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560418/IQ-tests-are-unreliable-measure.html

Anybody who joins a conversation for no other reason than to gloat about how intelligent they think they are has no place in my world. The guy in that article has the support of two other people who are professionals in their field. I think I'll take his opinion over yours. The only thing worse than an arrogant ass is an eighteen-year-old arrogant ass. 

I'd also like to see Proggers explainrainbows and how magnets work.

 

admin - profanities removed

Oops, looks like I hurt the little pompous teen's feelings. Not intentional; I'm just kind of blunt sometimes. Of course, I'm perfectly willing to admit that I may be an idiot, unlike yourself, but the fact remains: people with degrees have more credibility than a cocky teenager. 

1. People who call themselves "intellectuals" are, almost exclusively, a bunch of w**kers.

2. The only thing IQ tests measure is how good you are at taking IQ tests, and anybody who's actually intelligent realizes that they are meaningless to the world outside of the MENSA meetings where they solve puzzle books.

 

3. I think that enjoying experimental music of any time depends largely on your willingness to be open to new things, as most people, unfortunately, find things that are unfamiliar to them unpleasant and disorienting. Everybody filters their current experiences through their past ones, but for some reason we have a constant desire for novelty that outweighs the naturally conservative effects of our brain. I would agree that some prog is more contemplative, but that's not a trait that's exclusive to it.

P.S. Neitzsche was a dick.

Still, you could be a tad more humble about it.  You came into the conversation solely to state the results of an IQ test and then immediately declared it bulls*hit when the results were contested.  You may very well be very intelligent and that may be relevant to the discussion,  but the fact that IQ tests aren't known to be extremely accurate indicators of intelligence still stands.  Rather than the score, it's actually the percentile that you're in that gives a more accurate measure of your intelligence in relation to other people.  But, this is a bit off topic........

I do think there is a correlation between complex music and intelligence.  I think in general someone with a higher intellect will probably be better able to appreciate complexity, and prog is known to be fairly (and somethimes very) complex music.

QFE.  Words of wisdom (even the part where he calls me a w**ker, hehe)

Let's not be prog snobs! Were not better than anybody else - I can assure you. And trying to correlate IQ or intellect with the kind of music you prefer is presumptuous.

I love prog. I am happy. That is enough. 

Nietzsche was a sex-deprived man who spent too much time thinking and little time actually living. I remember a few years ago I used to think things like him, I started to become somewhat of a little-Friedrich in my views of the world and of people and of relations and of power and everything.....until I finally found social company.... And all that sh*t went to hell 

Prog music, again, is not even THE most difficult or complex or advanced music out there. It pales in comparison next to academic ("classical") music, it fails next to jazz, etc. People who think they're smarter just because they listen to prog need to go out and prove themselves in the world. Go out and talk with people about real-live, every-day things... if you can't even carry a decent water-dispenser conversation, congratulations, you're a prog genius and a social idiot. 

Yes it is. It's all about what we learn to like, what we're taught to like, what we inherited in our genes to like, what we are TRAINED to like. Nothing more. 

I think you and I are gonna get along just fine, here. Welcome to PA. 

Let' agree on this, 18-year-old master: you ARE a genius. Capisce? You are much more intelligent than 99% of people around you, and 80% of people on this website. In fact, you're so damn bright, most people here should just shut the f**k up when you speak, as it's obvious your words make theirs sound like ape noise. 

But your belief system, largely based on giving a sh*t about most people, shows a socially-isolated, uncommunicative, alone person, probably an unhappy one, for it is in social interaction where humans get fully realized and fulfilled. Ergo, my genius friend, all your intelligence will be worth sh*t for you in the future. In conclusion, while you are great at connecting dots and numbers, you're terrible at doing what most mammals can do: communicate with actual beings. That, my friend, is social idiocy. 

Gloat, jerk-off your intellect if you want. I think we will ALL ignore you from now on. 

That's a good point; it would definitely be absurd to suggest that prog is the most complex form of music.  Still, can we really say that intelligence isn't at all related to the type of music you listen to?  Maybe not even intelligence; maybe it has more to do with certain ways of thinking and approaching things?  For example, I like things that challenge me and make me think and I think that's part of what I find attractive about prog: it challenges me.  Someone who finds it uncomfortable to be challenged is much less likely to enjoy progressive music, I would think.  I guess this doesn't directly relate to intelligence, but it is interesting to think about.  But I'm just rambling at this point......what the hell do I know, anyway?

Stop rationalizing your doucheness.

Hahaha, yeah mostly.  Although I did see Muse, Pink Floyd, Tool, and The Doors; so not completely terrible, at least.  I'm not at all surprised to see Beethoven as the highest and Lil' Wayne as the lowest, but there doesn't really seem to be much of a correlation overall.

 

Do intellectuals appreciate complex music? Well some 'intellectuals' hate music.Complex music has much in common with mathematics so perhaps it depends on what intellectual field you are involved or interested in.

 

Just my opinion... but I'm not sure I agree with this bit. So-called improvised music is often highly structured. Similarly, if you think of something like Topographic Oceans... was it by chance that Yes wrote 4 side-long tracks? Just ignore me if I'm talking pants though  

I didnt see many an idiot love KC. but i agree with first half. I know many smart people dont like prog.

 

Are you saying: a sweet potato rather than a hot potato of a topic???

 

You guys ketchupped with me, you saucey fellows. Pollocks, it comes from being hard of herring -  by now I'm floundering for puns.

So bashing him ( as intelectual) appears to be a little bit childish.

The people today so relied in scientific views about enviroment and cultural influence....Dont you see the place of Nieztsche in your inherited intelectual antiintelctualism?

Arent you fighting with yourselves, dear intelectuals behind the mask?...in this case a neewspaper with two holes  .

Music is supose to be the art wich contacts directly with the will, while other arts seem to be connected with representation. Thats why a irrational quality is associated with music...and thats the main reason Nietzsche liked Wagner, at first. 

But when he turned out of him..he ended liking things like spanish zarzuela.

So i dont see Nietzsche as specialy prog ( musicaly) philosoper.

Prog is rich in musical ideas- so aesthetical determined representations.

Psych is much more Dionisian than prog.

There's a difference between disliking philosophy and being philosophical. The study of Philosophy for philosophy's sake is not being philosophical and there is a difference between having a (personal) philosophy and having to read (and pretend to understand) the interminable drivel of "professional" philosophers in the vain hope that it will explain something that cannot be explained by just thinking about it. Name dropping Nietzsche, Kant or Wittgenstein just means I know how to use Wikipedia, and Rob's joke about Popeye being an existentialist flies over my head and lies in a crumpled heap on the floor behind me. Do you have to be a sophist to be sophisticated, do you have to be philosophical to love wisdom?

 

btw: I'm not anti-intellectual, just anti-philosopher.

 

Thread/

I, also, get rather confused sometimes about the negative associations with the word "intellectual." We are animals with the capacity for symbolic thought and political organization. To forget any of these things, or to under-value any of these things, is, IMO, to devalue our humanity.

As for the relationship between prog and intellect, I suppose there may be one, but certainly not one that is, in any absolute sense, exclusive. Many prog songs and prog artists address themselves to the intellect. Many don't. Perhaps the ratio is different in more popular genres, but absolute judgements are out of place. Hell, there are even some smart country songs out there.  In any case, though, I do not think it is a matter of one type of music being innately smarter than another, but rather a case of which human faculties any given artist chooses to address in any given song. In prog, I've found that my intellect is address fairly often, but the same is true, as has been pointed out in this thread, with jazz and classical music. I could also say the same about much of Woody Guthrie's music, and a long list of others.

Well said, T

There's not necessarily anything wrong with the word 'intellectual'. As the guy writing in red says, in this particular context - where it (as I see it) is used to refer to the range of people who assumes a possible correlation between prog and intellect -  there is something wrong with it.

kingfriso wrote: I myself am an intellectual, which means I study and have an interest in head-breaking matters as world politics, art, ethics, philosophy, physics and human behaviors. The majority of people in Holland (I don't know what's the situation in other countries) don't care about more then one of these intellectual matters I've mentioned (I guess 40% don't care about a single one).

To make guesses like that disqualifies you as an intellectual. You really can't say unless you examine it properly (ie. not solely based on own or peer experiences). A survey determined to find out what percentage of Hollands population engage themselves in this sort of higher thinking would be pseudoscientific and plain stupid. Luckily, not everyone thinks about things in abstract and complex terms. We need intellectuals - but we certainly also need those who are not 'tormented' by head-breaking matters.

Also, real intellectuals would never present themselves as intellectuals. They are called so by others and it would be way too self-indulgent. 

I have an interest in language, and I have been studying lingustics for a long period of years now. It means that I have aquired a skill to think (talk and write) about language in an abstract and complex way. And in most senses I guess I can't really escape being an 'intellectual' or a 'wannabe-intellectual' - but would never claim to be one.

The whole issue of a possible correlation between 'prog' and 'intellect' is nonsense.

An interesting discussion going on here. Maybe drifting from the matter of prog and intellect and maybe not. My own take on intellect is that is is a matter of both pleasure and utility. If we spend all our time thinking interesting thoughts but never find a way to put our thoughts into practice, even modestly, then yes, T, I agree with you absolutely. But thinking is, or at least can be, one of the greatest pleasure's in life--and in that sense, any art that contributes to the richness of our thoughts and thus enriches our intellects is a gift. At least that's how I see it. Also, I wonder--and I make no claim to actual knowledge here--but I wonder whether the enrichment of our intellects may at least potentially also enrich our capacity for meaningful social action. Just a thought, and if it turns out to be b.s, I'll be the first to admit it.

Hope I haven't gone on too long.

I prefer Shakespeare's version much better ... something to the effect that he that hath no music has no soul! ... it says it all way better ... and to say that nobody has reflected more than Nietzche is rather small minded and not intellectual at all in my book, since there are so many ... so many ... out there that talk and discuss music and intellect ... but get blown away by "fans" ... and this board is a very good example of it. And there are a lot of people here that are very good, very intellectual, and also knowledgeable ... and have a massive history of things behind their noggin ... and the real issue is ... how open minded are you to want to increase your knowledge and appreciation with all the folks here (not just some! ALL), without judgement or idealism in the way? ... just remember that "music" is the essence of life, love and communication. The rest is talk!" ... and I wrote that!

 

Music, pure abstract music (instrumental music, he probably was talking about classical music) IS the best bridge to the actual human feeling, it's a window to the true inner self of the artist, where he doesn't rely on words, where he can't communicate anything directly and has to employ sound, which go straight pass the language-processing areas of the brain into regions more related to memory and emotion... Music is the greatest of the arts. As much as I love prog, I don't think prog is the greatest of the arts though. But it's a great one and even sublime one in the right hands.