Artist suggestion procedure
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Topic: Artist suggestion procedure
Posted By: Einsetumadur
Subject: Artist suggestion procedure
Date Posted: April 13 2010 at 14:49
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Hello, as the thread where I first wrote about this topic went quite off topic I am going to open a new topic concerning the procedure of suggesting an artist, something which is quite problematic here in my opinion. Note that I don't talk about my old thread, but about a general tendency which I noticed in the last weeks. Description of the problems: When someone suggests a new band for the ProgArchives, especially when it isn't completely clear if this band is Prog, Prog-Related or Proto-Prog, there is much space for discussing and interpreting facts so that in 50% of the "worse cases" fruitless and endless discussions and in the other 50% unsensible discussions quickly start. The administration gets frustated because every day there is the same old thread with the same old discussion. And of course members get frustated, insist on their opinion and nothing changes - and they don't know what (and why it) happens right now. Where do the problems perhaps come from? What's a rejection? There is no clear definition of what a rejection is and it isn't possible to find any rejected band anywhere in a list or a seperate thread. How is a genre exactly defined? I think this is the most striking problem here. When someone suggests a band as proto prog there should (in my opinion) be a clear definition of what proto prog actually is. There is one written down in the "Proto Prog" category, but this doesn't seem to contain everything which should be known and thought about; at least there seem to be certain inofficial or always-forgotten factors (like popularity) which play (or don't play?) a role so that a new member is confused quickly. As soon as there is a clear and universally valid definition with, say, 10 aspects, one can systematically check this band related to these 10 aspects and discuss the topic matter-of-factly. This has the big advantage that probably less people suggest unfitting artists and less people feel frustrated when the thread is closed - because they see clear and obvious rules then. Another user has explained that it is very hard to define an omnipotent definition of Proto Prog or Prog. But if (and this is the case!) the Progarchives act democratically, there should be rules and they should be written down poignantly so that everyone can check that. This leads us to a next problem: Do all of the members make a decision concerning a suggestion or is this work for the mods, collabs and admins? At first: I see neither the "democracy" (everyone decides) nor the "oligarchy" (Ads/Mods decide) as bad, they both have their advantages and disadvantages (at least in a forum   ).There seem to be two possible procedures when suggesting a band: a) suggest a band to an administrator and b) open a thread and discuss it with other members. I interpreted that this way: either one talks to the deciding people directly and lets the administrator decide (a) or one talks with other members (b) - and the administration does what the multitude of the members suggests. Is this the case that way? Or is method "b" just intended to convince or retune the administration (which in the end decides the situation itself and - possibly - against the mainstream opinion)? Anyway; I think it should be really clear and written down what is the case: I can live with both ways or with a compromise, but (frankly) not with an undefined mixture which only longtime members know. Because then one wouldn't waste too much time and words on a decision that's actually been made: that means, method "a" would be more direct and simpler; although method 'b' has the big advantage that when everyone takes the aspects&arguments seriously decisions could become fairer and more differentiated. I'd be glad if there were some comments and/or a friendly discussion - or feedback if I'm right or wrong.  As I merely visit the forum sporadically and as I am not registered for quite a long time I can perhaps look at things from a beginner's perspective. Probably a discussion with others in a factual and nice manner could help groups of members understand each other better and maybe find a solution which reduces senseless work for everyone (Admins and Users) so that the time may be spent on the really important things: writing reviews or chatting about music in the forum. I think that the Progarchives are a very nice invention and even nicer it would be if working here would become a bit easier and the guidelines more transparent. Best wishes, Einsetumadur ------------- All in all each man in all men |
Replies:
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: April 13 2010 at 15:17
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As with your previous posts, I have to agree and admire how well it is structured, good arguments that you're giving.
------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: April 13 2010 at 15:54
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Nice workout Max ... you name a procedure which will surely never satisfy every member here ... the most difficult perhaps I'm not the one to write huge essays ... so i will concentrate on one or two questions Do all of the members make a decision concerning a suggestion or is this work for the mods, collabs and admins? This is where it all begins ... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51990 - we have a policy for the suggestion procedure a band must be suggested for a subgenre - and every sub has a team which is responsible we have collabs here who pick up the suggestions and forward them to the teams Only the teams decide which band gets in or will be rejected Now we have two exceptions - the proto prog and prog related category where only the admins decide Please try to imagine what will happen if every member has a vote ... anarchy, chaos ... immediately  What's a rejection? A rejection occurs if a band/artist does not get the majority of YES votes by the team members, simple as that it's possible to re-evaluate though if new aspects are coming up ... usually a new album which convinces ... And yes ... we do need a list of rejected bands ... we are already discussing this ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 13 2010 at 16:41
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Trusted collaborators (read: volunteers) who have proven themselves over time work on teams to vote and decide whether an artist should be added or not. The great thing here is that anyone, whether newbie, senior member, or admin, can suggest a band in the appropriate forum and let everyone participate in the discussion of that band's progressive qualities. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: April 13 2010 at 19:20
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Max, I'm too tired to comment, but I'll come back to reply something meaningful. This is a very good thread!
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Posted By: Tsevir Leirbag
Date Posted: April 13 2010 at 19:38
It's when a team rejects a band for addition on the website. I posted a (embryonic) list of such Rejected Bands in the Collab Section. If it works as I want it to work, it'll posted on the Suggest Bands / Artists forum section.
That would be a good thing indeed. I think most of the sub-genres have a clear definition. Some don't though.
I think Proto-Prog bands are bands that, before Progressive Music existed, have made similar music, or have influenced the Progressive movement with their music.
I rarely saw a thread closed because it was unfitting artist for a certain sub-genre if it was progressive. When such a thing happen (a band being suggested for the wrong sub-genre), we (members of teams) just suggest it to another team.
Of course, because Collaborators (members of the Genre Teams, precisely) cote for the inclusion of bands. They know their genre well and are able to judge if bands fit.
* Proto-Prog and Prog-Related bands are decided by Admins.
To suggest an artist, you have to open a thread in the Suggest Artists Section, that's what it is meant for. ------------- Les mains, les pieds balancés Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers, Un marin mort, Il dormira - Paul Éluard |
Einsetumadur wrote:Posted By: Einsetumadur
Date Posted: April 14 2010 at 07:18
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Okay. Among five replies there are five helpful ones and/or compliments. Thanks! I try to reply and see what I think
You should suggest this posting (probably without your personal opinion as it wouldn't fit there ) as a guideline for the suggestion procedure as it is easy and well-understandable.Now I will overdo the status quo on the ProgArchives a bit: while the collaborators are busy checking if a band should be added or not , the members discuss this topic controversely. But they do this in vain because in the end their opinion is not gonna count. (Of course I impute a wrong stolidity to the collaborators team, but at least a bit I think that this is the case now). My suggestion: Two possible suggestions of mine: 1. Simplify the process by signaling to the users: the collaborators decide! The collaborators are collaborators because they are experts on a certain genre and in most of the cases their decisions are absolutely correct and understandable. But then it is contradictory to say that "everybody's opinion is in great demand". Of course it is in demand in the reviews and discussion threads, but not in the suggestion procedure. Then I would be consequent and say that it isn't necessary for users to discuss the topic because this is an administrative process where only the administration decides, that means the competent team of collaborators. This is what I would even like better: 2. The users make a preliminary decision. The collaborators then check this decision and decide "x yes" or "x no". I agree completely that it is impossible to open a poll, let the members vote and then reject the band if there are more "no"s than "yes"s (and vice versa when a band should be included). This would be democratic, but we all know how many trolls creep around in the internet and this makes the situation unfair. Think about this scenario. An administrator posts a well-thought-about definition of (for example) Prog-Related music in a special thread of a suggestion forum. This definition is formulated as a survey. Then, the user XYZ reads this and thinks that The Rolling Stones should be added. He can only suggest this band as he has more than 50 postings in the forum and has released one full review. He opens a thread (with a poll) and suggests the band. Then the thread (and poll) are open for two weeks in which everyone can and should discuss this band - again using this survery. Then the thread is closed. The collaborators shouldn't write anything, but just see what happens and be open to some arguments. Afterwards, the collaborators should check every posting and then write down the collab-team's opinion on this genre-survey in a few words with a concluding answer: reject yes or reject no - using the poll as a help, but not as the source of the decision. When every argument can be found a bit in the collaborator's final posting, no-one should protest, but the final posting (of course) has to be thought out well. All of the rejections are then written clearly in a separate thread. If the band has been rejected, the thread keeps being where it is, and if it has been included, one can put the thread away. When the user ABC suggests the (rejected!) Rolling Stones again five months later the new thread can be deleted quickly - referring to the old thread. Unless the Rolling Stones have recorded a new 80-minute-long work of astounding psychedelia. Of course this is similar to what happens right now, but the big difference is that a) the individual's opinion is used and appreciated more, b) things are much more transparent and c) there is an opinion of the collab's team which can be read: one knows why a band has been rejected so that no administrator has to justify himself every time. There has been an opinion which has been carefully made, and this won't change anymore. This is quite similar to that:
but (frankly said) there is much happening in the background which nobody notices. Everyone is able to participate, but no-one knows how much his/her participation actually was used in the collaborator's discussion. Maybe they read it all, maybe they already formulated their opinion in the beginning. No-one knows what is happening.
Great, good news!
I don't know how it is with the other genres, but when I want to check a topic objectively, I need a clear definition - clear enough that no-one can interpret it wrongly. In the "Proto Prog" category I always the most curious jumping around on arguments because no-one knows anything.
No, that's not what I mean. I thought about bands that were either rejected although no-one noticed it, or about bands where the band has been rejected and the thread closed therefore. ------------- All in all each man in all men |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: April 14 2010 at 08:57
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This compliment will be mine I suppose. OK, something helpful then and we're complete: It's generally easier to suggest some obscure / unknown band that however you have samples to support your case, things gets easier when it's like that. I think that it's the same with lesser known countries. Everyone welcomes new Prog Metal from Syria here (but almost nobody knows about it / have a chance / skills to buy the album / review it), but new Prog Metal from USA gets more attention, but it's different. One more thing: When I think what may I suggest to get here, I have in mind how certain genre and some bands from genre I know sounds like. I proposed Czech band Narajama, because I knew that it's Prog. It ended up in Eclectic instead of Avant (how I planned it), but still, it's here. And one more - I dare to say that not all, but 95-99% of classic Prog bands are here. The rest is either unknown and not yet proposed, or controversial and has been thought about and rejected in past. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 14 2010 at 16:10
phew! A lot to take in there Max...
Uwe's answer was a simplification of the process - in reality the agrument put forward by the person suggesting the band, and any following discussion in the Suggest New Bands lounge about that artist, is taken into account by the evaluating Subgenre Team. For example if member XYZ suggests a new band and some of the other members and collaborators agree/disagree with the suggestion then that will influence the Subgenre Team when they evaluate the band themselves to some degree (though they will still rely on their own ears and what they hear in the samples to see if the band fits the chosen subgenre ... or even if they think it may suit another subgenre better).
Just a minor note of clarification - Collaborators and Administrators are two different "job functions" here on the PA. Admins do not get involved in Band Submissions/Additions (except in Proto Prog and Prog Related, but more on those later) - The Admin team are the General Managers of the site and the forum.
Collaborators do all the real work and are split into two main roles - those involved on Subgenre Teams (who evaluate and add bands) and those involved in support teams (such as Band Submissions, Errors and Omissions, Site Monitors, etc.).
I am (un)lucky in having both jobs - on the Crossover Team I am only a Collaborator, not an Admin.
(the well thought-out genre defintions exist on the Genre pages, for example like this: http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=18 - )
One of the disadantages with letting everyone have a vote (by whatever method) is that it will slow down the process even more than it is already.
At this moment in time we have 62 new band suggestions for Crossover Prog. This process is on-going - last December the list was 74 bands - (we have cleared *a lot* more than 12 bands in that time
 ) - the list keeps growing almost as fast as we can clear it - yesterday 6 more bands were added to the list. (at that attrition-rate it will take 25 months to clear the list!)No one can know all those bands - some are very old and obscure, most are new and unknown - we have to find samples (usually MySpace or band website) and listen to each one - the selection of songs we get to hear has to be representative or at least show some relevance to Prog. If we assume that 30 minutes to an hour to assess each band so for a 5 man Subgenre Team that's over 300 manhours of effort. If each person does 3 hours a day (this is volunteer work) then that's 21 days of work. This is time consuming when 5 people are involved in evaluating the artist - imagine what that would be like if 20 or 30 people were involved in doing this before the team got to do their evaluations.
Now if we had a poll of each of those 62 bands how many voters do you think would be tempted to vote for any of these: Antares, Argo, Bead Game, Lindsey Boullt, Captain Marryat, Cary Clouser, The Cooper Temple Clause, Cuac!, The Daedalus Spirit Orchestra, Dead Letter Circus, Delirio Sonoro, Distant Lights, Dynamo Bliss, Aaron English, Esagil, Ex-Wise Heads, Shawn Farley, Field Music, Floater, Frames, Freeway, Gabriel Bondage, Gio Gentile, Groupthink, Shinichi Itakura, leDimanche, The Living, The Lovetones, Ludus, Marionette ID, Masters of the Airwaves, The Mayan Factor, Rick Miller, Modest Midget, Mogador, Mountain Mirrors, Mytho, Nebuleyes, North Atlantic Oscillation, Openspace, Opus Symbiosis, Pedra, Yoni Rechter, Barbara Rubin, ScienceNV, Sinthome, The Skys, The Sparks, Spirits Of The Dead, Sub Rosa, Sukilove, Sunday, Tamam Shud, TenMidnight, Minus the Bear, Tilt, Tuned Tone, Undetermined Nation, Unkarin Musta Luumu, The Venetia Fair, Water & Bodies, Woolgather? My guess is only two of those artists would attract five or more members to vote "yes" or "no" - the rest perhaps one or two, but probably none.
As Uwe has said, we are discussing a rejected bands list - in the meantime you can see some of the suggested/added/rejected bands on the ProgFreak PA pages here: http://progfreak.com/home/progarchives.xhtml - ... however not all the subgenres use ProgFreak and no explanation is given for the rejection (though I guarantee that most of the reasons for rejection would be "they are not Prog")
Your idea is great for well known bands - for example everybody has an opinion on The Rolling Stones even if they've never heard "Their Satanic Majesties Request". But well known bands are not our day-to-day business, it is the plethora of unknown and lesser known bands that we need "help" with and only a few people have an opinion on Cuac! for example.
This is a problem and a boon - it just isn't possible or practical to open-up the discussions to all, and frankly, (as I have said), few are interested in the mundane day-to-day evaluations of lesser known bands that make up 99% of what we do. However, we should provide feedback on any rejection to the person suggesting the band, if only out of politeness.
Proto Prog and Prog Related are emotive and very subjective categories, which is why the Admin team "manages" those two separately from the other subgenres. We have no intention or desire to add every band that could be remotely related or influential on the Progressive Rock movement - only those select bands that were key or important are considered, which is why it is difficult to give an objective definition. Whether this is right or wrong is constantly up for debate and (again) everybody has an opinion, even of they do not have a comprehensive knowledge of the genre, the history of the bands in question.
btw: The process of PP and PR is different to other subgenres because the suggestion process is different too (see Uwe's post for a link to the normal band suggestion process).
In other subgenres anyone can suggest a band - all anyone needs to do is open a new thread in Suggest New Bands lounge, along with a short biography, discography, suggested subgenre and reasons why the band should be included - Even non- PA members can suggest bands, they can email the admin google account with the suggestion and the band will be considered.
This is not the case with PP and PR. Only a Special Collaborator can suggest a band to the Admin Team for evaluation into these two categories (and that SC must be prepared to add the band if accepted - the Admin's do not add bands). This is not a closed-shop - anyone can still suggest a band to PP or PR, but they have to convince an SC to propose that band to the Admin team - think of this as a pre-selection process. Apart from that, the process is the same.
Threads do not get closed because the evaluation is over. They only get closed if the thread has been inactive for a long time (it is an automated process). If you see a locked thread and want to post in it, contact an Admin and he will re-open it for you. ------------- What? |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 14 2010 at 16:28
That's the happy case - many bands generate a lot more work time when the first evaluation from a team is negative and the band is referred to another Team. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: April 14 2010 at 20:45
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I see never ending discussions over any band as a positive. Why ? Think of it ... our forums are made up of threads started by our members. Other members are free to post or not post. Popular threads will get many replies, and will stay "alive" for as long as people want to put their two cents in. Sooooooo ... there is not really a problem with overly long band suggestion threads. Admin / collabs can determine at any time that they have enough info / proof to make a decision. Once this is done, there is no need nor responsibility on admins /collabs to keep coming back to the thread. Simply post the answer, and advise that the thread can remain open , but will not be followed by PA's "decision makers" (there must be a better word). because if this is felt to be a problem, then can we consider banning other overdone topics. do we need to ? have we not survived the teapot tempest that was the gabrielites vs the philistines ? Have we not emerged without injury from the outrageous Anti-DT threads ? Somehow, I think that if we simply say, "O.K. , this is our decision. keep talking if you want to, but we (admin /collabs ) ain't coming back. " ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |