''Union''. It's terrible . . . really?
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Forum Name: Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65384
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Topic: ''Union''. It's terrible . . . really?
Posted By: JLocke
Subject: ''Union''. It's terrible . . . really?
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 12:40
Okay, so I have avoided Yes' ''Union'' album for years now, because virtually every account I have heard involving hearing it has been bad. Even all the band members hate it, as far as I know. At least with TFTO, the internal opinions were split, a bit. The most classic criticism I have heard is when Bill Bruford referred to the record as ''Ghastly''. 
Now . . . I have recently heard a couple of tunes from this 'dreadful' album, and . . . well . . . call me crazy, but it's not as bad as I was expecting.
Sure, what I have heard so far does indeed sound quite over-produced, echoey and full of pop stylings, but at the same time, the musicianship, song length and overall presentation struck me as much more complex and challenging than either of the prior Yes-west albums. I suppose that has something to do with ABWH teaming up with them for this effort.
So what say you? Is this album really as horrible as they say? Or has it gotten crucified unfairly?
Keep in mind, I haven't come close to hearing every song on this album, so i still don't have an opinion one way or the other; that's why I'm asking for opinions on here. I came across this album at a flea market last year. I'm debating whether or not to head down and see if it's still there. For a couple of bucks, I think I might as well try it out.
Let the opinions be heard.
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Replies:
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 12:43
I prefer Open Your Eyes to Union.
Union is Yes's only one star album to me. Everything about it is cheesy, overblown, and completely forgettable (except "Masquerade").
Scott rushfan4 likes the album though, I believe.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 12:44
Union is another one of those albums that I didn't know I was suppose to hate until I joined ProgArchives. But my tastes are poppier than most, so I guess that is just me being me.
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 12:51
^ Well, I'm a 90125 fan, and I listen to the best of pop music from time to time, so perhaps I should give this one a chance?
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 12:57
All Yes studio albums from 1987 till 1999 are bad, the rest has to do with differentiating.
I personally find Talk most excruciating, but that's actually a project that could have shined.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 12:57
As the saying goes, it is always best to judge for one's self. I'm pretty sure that you can probably find it pretty cheap in a bargain bin somewhere. I always see Magnification in the really cheap bargain bin, and it makes me sad since it is such an excellent album.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 12:57
For what it's worth, I think 90125, Big Generator, and Talk are great albums. I loathe Union.
You may like it, and if you get it cheap, go for it! I mean, worst case scenario, you can write a one star review, right? 
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 13:02
^ True.
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 13:19
Epignosis wrote:
For what it's worth, I think 90125, Big Generator, and Talk are great albums. I loathe Union.
You may like it, and if you get it cheap, go for it! I mean, worst case scenario, you can write a one star review, right? 
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Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 14:04
I love 90125, and I'm less enthusiastic about Big Generator and Talk but they do have their moments. For me Union is a level less good, though. They should have avoided to make this album the way they did. Read: they shouldn't have let a producer and a record company take so much control. My least favourite of all the Yes albums I heard.
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 18:15
As most progheads (at least I suppose so), I am open to practically all musical genres, therefore I don't judge a band by its name but by its material. And I must admit I quite like 'union', there are some flaws but overall it's a decent album.
------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 18:17
I have to agree with Lucas on this one. Union is by no means a masterpiece, but it's a rather pleasant listen, if you don't expect CTTE-like quality.
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 18:27
That, along with Open Your Eyes (and maybe Big Generator), are the only Yes albums that I would give 1 star.
-Jeff
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 23:05
I don't find the album so very terrible either. The West Line-up songs sound just like that, so if you liked 90125 and Big Generator, this should be decent at least. As far as I know, most of the music from the ABWH songs aren't really played by Howe in the final mix, he got replaced by one Jimi Haun by the producer and Anderson. I think many of Ricks parts got replaced too. Suposedly both Howe and Wakeman were most apathic and uninterested in the project. However, in the end, I do love two tracks from this album: "Shock to the System" and "The More we Live, Let go"; and "I Would Have Waited Forever I like a lot too". The rest are at least listenable and even enjoyable up to a point.
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 01:03
I like Shock To The System, I play it regularly. The rest is simply forgettable. A bad ABWH if you will.
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Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 01:49
It's mixed bag. I'm a huge Yes fan and I listened to it more than 20 times before I knew what I felt about it. (Unike Epignosis, Open Your Eyes is the only Yes album I haven't been able to listen to ridiculous amounts yet). It has some really good songs, and some songs that make me wonder how they could be by Yes. I would definitely consider it a 2 star (fan only) album, but it does have some nice songs, some of the better ones from Yes' poppy era. (That being said, I much prefer the versions I've managed to find played live during the tour, but there's nothing officially released from that tour yet).
My thoughts: Good tracks: Masquerade, Lift Me Up, Without Hope You Cannot Start the Day, The More We Live - Let Go, Take The Water To the Mountain
Painful tracks: Saving My Heart, I Would Have Waited Forever. (okay, I just don't get Yes "love" songs. I've got nothing against love songs; I just don't think Yes is very good at them :) )
Honourable Mention: Angkor Wat (cool atmosphere, fails to deliver what it feels like it could have)
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 01:52
TheGazzardian wrote:
It's mixed bag. I'm a huge Yes fan and I listened to it more than 20 times before I knew what I felt about it. (Unike Epignosis, Open Your Eyes is the only Yes album I haven't been able to listen to ridiculous amounts yet). It has some really good songs, and some songs that make me wonder how they could be by Yes. I would definitely consider it a 2 star (fan only) album, but it does have some nice songs, some of the better ones from Yes' poppy era. (That being said, I much prefer the versions I've managed to find played live during the tour, but there's nothing officially released from that tour yet).
My thoughts: Good tracks: Masquerade, Lift Me Up, Without Hope You Cannot Start the Day, The More We Live - Let Go, Take The Water To the Mountain
Painful tracks: Saving My Heart, I Would Have Waited Forever. (okay, I just don't get Yes "love" songs. I've got nothing against love songs; I just don't think Yes is very good at them :) )
Honourable Mention: Angkor Wat (cool atmosphere, fails to deliver what it feels like it could have) |
Probably the most informative and helpful post yet. Thanks you! 
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 03:13
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 20:50
Union would have profitted greatly by being cut down to a single album. There are some real gems here. The first half of it is pretty good if you skip Saving My Heart.. The second half is at best forgettable.
For what it's worth, this is probably the album I listen to most from the Rabin period.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 12:20
I had really lost interest in following Yes after 90210 so much to the point that I skipped Big Generator entirely and still haven't heard it. Union came in on the heels of AWBH and I was starting to get interested again in Yes. Saw them for the last time to date on that tour. It was an interesting idea but didn't yield great results. Maybe if they'd just included Peter Banks in the effort...
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 19:00
Even though on the pop side, it's a good album. Remember that in the 80s, the influence of Trevor Robin was very strong on yes music, and that gave them a commercial edge that resulted in much radio play for their music. However, the music is well written and nicely performed, and if you get into it, even though not genius, is quite a good album.
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 21:42
Slartibartfast wrote:
I had really lost interest in following Yes after 90210 so much to the point that I skipped Big Generator entirely and still haven't heard it. Union came in on the heels of AWBH and I was starting to get interested again in Yes. Saw them for the last time to date on that tour. It was an interesting idea but didn't yield great results. Maybe if they'd just included Peter Banks in the effort...
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I read they had been very close to include him in at leas one show, only for a few songs. But it didn't work out in the end. I think Banks said it was Howe who managed to leave him out.
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Posted By: MAVIII
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 22:35
Another case of : "One mans meat is anothers poison".
I had to take my "Notification of Replies" OFF from the Thread "Worst Yes Epic" because the
criticisms were irratating .
I'll say I have tried to listen to "Open your Eyes" and there is no LIFE in it, I mean lets slap a
generic Roger Dean "YES" Logo on it and simple font for the lyrics, so not even the lay-out
has any life (sorry, I'm an Artist who creates Logos for Bands and Dean is a HUGE influence).
And "Magnification" takes the life out of Rick Wakeman . . . HE IS THE ORCHESTRA! Thats
what the Keyboards are for! 
Those 2 are my biggest dissapointments for them, but with all said, if YOU like them, thats
all that matters.
Now time to bash me . . .
I loved "Union" when it came out, I do understand that most of the Band hated it, though I
think Squire said he liked it, and Trevor and Alan liked it as well (Need to see Classic Rocks
Yes Doc. again) but to me it was the best of both "sounds" united as one . . .
even if it wasnt very united when recording and performing together on it, but what an
AWESOME show it was to see! ALL of them together and they looked like they had a blast!
Shock to the system, Lift me up, Without hope you cannot start the day, Saving my heart,
Miracle of life, The more we live-let go, Angkor Wat, Holding on, and, Take the water to the
mountain, are the ones that stand out for me, which is just about the whole album.
Each of these songs were different in mood, from rocking to etherial and I enjoyed the ride.
And Deans Art really complimented to sound of the album and its one of my fave pieces.
Maybe its because I create "Compilation CD's" and sometimes "Themes", listening to tracks
in bites or in a "Mood" with other songs that have the same feel helps(?).
But I listened to the album constantly when I got it-for a few months after.
I also have the version with the extra song "Give & Take" that I searched for-for about 15
years, and that track . . . is pretty weak .
I can go on about ABWH, Big Generator, Talk and the Studio Tracks on Keys to Assension
I and II, but apparently I hear something that most don't because these get bashed as well.
All that matters is I like them, I will defend them to death but it just doesnt matter.
Its about what YOU like 
Prock On!
" (okay, I just don't get Yes "love" songs.
I've got nothing against love songs; I just don't think Yes is very
good at them :) )" I think Yes in the more popular era's had a few "Love Songs" that were quite poetic, esoteric and
beautiful . As well as the Rabin era ("Hearts" from 90125), I have to say "I am waiting" from Talk is
pretty much what I feel Love should be. Trevs Guitar and Whites drums basically set the "Heart
Beats" of the different emotions of Love, and then Jons angelic voice just speaks volumes! bravo!
. . . and yes, mmmm . . . CHEEEEEESE (100% too!) 
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: March 02 2010 at 00:06
I'm glad that you mentioned Miracle of Life. It's as proggy as YesWest ever got.
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Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: March 02 2010 at 03:05
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
Union would have profitted greatly by being cut down to a single album. There are some real gems here. The first half of it is pretty good if you skip Saving My Heart.. The second half is at best forgettable.
For what it's worth, this is probably the album I listen to most from the Rabin period. |
I thought it was a single album.
I did have it on cassette yonks ago. The compositional disparties and different musicians give the album an uneven feel. It's like a lifeboat with loads of important people but no cook.
It has excellent tracks - this is Yes, (and more Yes) after all. Perhaps it needed to be two separate releases (maybe this is what Ghost of Morph meant?) - anyways there is extra material) and let album cohesion shine through rather than let conflicting styles distract.
It got Bruford back in the band, how surprised was he!
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 02 2010 at 15:18
I don't think its that bad either. I even went and bought the CD after first owning a copy on Cassette.However as already mentioned there is no real direction to the music and it was essentially a marriage of convenience between the then Yes line ups.
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: March 02 2010 at 15:45
Although my review of it waas on the whole quite negative, I do still listen to Silent Talking quite a lot. I love that end movement.
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 02 2010 at 22:06
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
I'm glad that you mentioned Miracle of Life. It's as proggy as YesWest ever got. |
On my particular point of view, Endless Dream is the proggiest song YesWest ever released (and my favorite too).
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Posted By: MAVIII
Date Posted: March 02 2010 at 23:23
Dellinger wrote:
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
I'm glad that you mentioned
Miracle of Life. It's as proggy as YesWest ever got. |
On my particular point of view, Endless Dream is the proggiest song YesWest ever released (and my favorite too). |
AMEN!!!
I got so tired of mentioning that track from "Talk" and I didnt want to
repeat myself I didnt want to
repeat myself (I was going to mention it-
at the 1st Yes/West comment but glad someone else thought
the same ).
And Yes/Wests "Miracle of Life", they succeeded by making it sound "Nauticle" with the subject matter,
I always have visions of Jacques Cousteau and his programs when I listen to it.
Endless Dream indeed . . .
This "Yes/Rabin" Epic has so many layers and textures, and that Jon's voice soars to the heavens is and
was astounding when I 1st heard it. Its because of Jon its a Yes track, he's the voice.
This is the one Epic (and Miracle...) of the scale of "You and I" and its counterparts that the Rabin Era
was able to create, to be contemporary and stand on its own back in those days of Prog Rock.
But it has been put on a few times in the "Yes Worst Epics" list 
Listen to Frost* track "Hyperventilate" (2006) next to "Endless Dream",
Hyper is an awesome track (As
well as the whole album- Was one of Chris
Squires fave albums of that year) but Yes did it first in 1994
(only with vox/lyrics).
Ha! I'd add more "comments" but I'll just wait till the subject comes up again .
"I repeat myself when in distress, I repeat myself when in distress, I repeat myself when in distress,
I repeat myself when in distress . . . the more I look at it, the more I like it, I do think its good!. . ."
OH WOW!!! Whoopie!!!! 40 Comments! I've made it to "Groupie" Level! 
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: March 03 2010 at 06:17
I actually don't think Union is that bad, in fact I'd go as far as to say I prefer it to 90125.
* stands back and waits for the onslaught *
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 03 2010 at 11:07
Honestly I can't care less for any post Drama Yes album,
When released, I used to like The Ladder a bit, but it bored me soon.
I bought Union at the door of the tour concert in Miami, but when listened it at the hotel, wanted to give it back, not as bad as 90125 or Big Generator, but still absolutely boring and uninspired if you ask me.
Iván
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