ELP's importance not fully recognised
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Topic: ELP's importance not fully recognised
Posted By: clotomic
Subject: ELP's importance not fully recognised
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 22:17
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This is not to be so regretting, but at this point, I feel strange that the importance and glory of Emerson Lake & Palmer is not some notoriety. Sure, it's not exactly a group of trade. It is the low level of musical assimilation. Sure, there are many tastes, but a lot of blandness stimulated by the massive.
Some may say that they are about dinosaurs, but this is an aberration of those seeking to nullify the "old fashioned". For my part I expect another great contribution of the trio, when they occur in July in London |
Replies:
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 22:44
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I suspect it's mostly those who never really liked them that say stuff as that.. in reality, not only are they probably still the most well-known prog band (worldwide, especially among non-proggies), but their impact is still felt all these years later on much new prog |
Posted By: clotomic
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 22:51
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True Atavachron!
I think I wrote it, projecting my anxiety to hear their new contributions. Thanks for writing. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 00:22
| ELP are probably the highest profile victim of the change in taste that happened with the change of generations. They still remain influential on the scene, though. |
Posted By: clotomic
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 00:26
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Hello Harmonium.ro
Yes, than high as they are arrive in the general musical evolution. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 00:37
I agree that they are probably highly influential, but that doesn't mean I like them. A few songs I like, but it's just not my kind of music. I prefer a screeching sax solo over a keyboard solo anyday. 
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Posted By: hawkmoon666
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 03:01
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I actually think it's quite the opposite. Most prog fans (and I mean REAL prog fans), if not all, will tell you ELP are one of the most influential prog bands ever. Most prog fans though won't put them in their top three. My point being, ELP are highly considered exactly because of their importance for the genre but seem to fail to really get to the hearts of fans like other bands of comparable importance do (Yes and Genesis to name two, but even Camel or Gentle Giant). This happens for some reasons, one of them being their excessively complex (often convoluted) style, the characteristic that ultimately led progressive rock to its decline.
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Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 03:10
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(I have no idea how my post from the first page got re-posted here!) ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 03:40
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The influence of ELP can be seen in the strangest of places. Just take a good listen to a lot of the RPI bands, most of them got their bombastisch symphonic ideas from ELP. With the Manticore lable ELP even helped these bands rise in northern Europe.
Futhermore ELP brought rock'nroll back into prog with their style and fast compositions. I don't like their music that much, but I think they did some important work for prog. I myself would wish Greg Lake stayed with King Crimson. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 04:28
Have to agree with what is a very succinct summary of just some of ELP's considerable legacy. I've always maintained there's an even more staunchly conservative strand in the DNA of the rock demographic than that of the mainstream (it's becoming even more reactionary now) There have always been a number of factors that prevent ELP getting the kudos they probably deserve: 1 - Rawk without a prominent lead guitar appears to be sufficient for those who always order the same dish at the Prog Takeaway to be 'missing an ingredient'. 2 - Many hippies thought ELP were the apex of 'capitalist rock' (presumably by virtue of their massive global material success - I guess Floyd frittered their millions away on lentils and gardening gloves ?) 3 - ELP grew and developed very rapidly during their creative peak from 1970 to '74 to the extent that as a 'serious' composer, Emerson had long outstripped and outgrown rock as a suitable medium for his writing. I admit that much of Works was a bloated and misguided fiasco, but only by virtue of a panicked record label attempting to market unadulterated classical, love songs, jazz rock, symphonic prog and what is tantamount to a Rock Opera (Pirates) to an audience who could not be expected to assimilate such a breadth of stylistic influences in the one sitting. According to Keith's autobiography, it was the band's manager Stuart Young who came up with the ill-begotten idea to shoehorn what were three fledgling solo albums into one unwieldy and schizophrenic whole. 4 - The music press habitually called them 'po-faced, cold and pretentious' while one of the most recurrent reservations contained in many withering reviews on PA is that their shorter and light hearted humorous tracks are deemed 'unworthy' of a serious band (Go figure) BTW I know Keith has to pay the bills and top up his motorcyle collection every now and then but he should be concentrating on writing contemporary music scored for orchestra, as his talents are wasted in the cramped world of rock IMO ------------- 
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jplanet wrote:Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 04:29
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I'm a big fan of ELP myself. I do recall though that even back in the early 1970's some of my friends did not like them. At that time, we were all very open minded to the great new music (which we now know as prog) that was being released on a regular basis. Most of the time, we would find much to enjoy in albums by top bands such as Yes, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Led Zep, etc.
When it came to ELP though, the views were far more divided. I think it was the indulgences of the band which put some off. While the track "Tarkus" for example was recognised as a masterpiece, the repetitive clanking piano on side 2 was easy meat for criticism. Likewise, the melodic tones of "Take a pebble" appealed to all, but the padding which made that song a 13 minute piece, the drum solo in "Tank", and the piano improvisation on "Three fates" all left some listeners cold.
As has been said, I think most people who were around them appreciated their talents and their influence. Perhaps though the egos were just a little too big leading to a shortcoming in the quality control. The lack of recognition is probably a result of their failure to fulfil their potential.
As I say though, I do like them!
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 04:32
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two excellent posts |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 06:06
Seconded . A couple of extra points I'd like to make:1) the influence of ELP on RPI is not negligible, but not as big either as you might believe. Remember that Italy has quite a vast musical heritage of its own, and that Verdi's operas were possibly even more bombastic than anything ELP produced in their whole career. 2) I don't believe for a second that prog was led to its decline by the excessively convoluted style promoted by ELP. Let's face it - for the record companies and such, in the Seventies prog was a fad, as much as punk was in 1977 or grunge in 1990. Both those genres had their more or less brief moment of glory, then went back underground, but never disappeared completely. The same has happened to prog. |
Posted By: hawkmoon666
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 06:24
You evidently misunderstood what I said. In fact, to me ELP importance for the genre is obvious and I think it is largely recognized by everybody here. You also noted I compared them to Yes and Genesis, which says it all. For some reason though ELP are also very controversial and receive lots of critics and, while everybody respects them and is aware of the relevance of their contribution, not so many currently seem to *love* them, if you know what I mean. Which is something strange and you don't see this happen for "minor" (note the quotes) bands like Camel or Gentle Giant -hence my reference- which are thoroughfully loved by progsters (who actually know them :). This might be why our friend thinks ELP is somewhat underestimated - which, I repeat, IMHO it's not. I for myself think that ELP wrote some of the greatest classics in progressive history but also A LOT of VERY weak tracks and eventually the egos of the single members had the best over the quality of their music. I can't seem to be able to listen to one of their albums in its entirety, there is always something I hate, be it Benny the bouncer or, as someone said, the drum solo in Tank. Nonetheless I own all of their cds.
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Posted By: wanda
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 07:27
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Hi, everyone! A lot of people may consider Emerson, Lake and Palmer's music "challenging" or "bombastic". Not me. They were the first prog rock band I got into. They were the band that made the genre my favorite one.They are still one of the most influential progressive rock bands of all time. Anyone who is a true progressive rock fan would agree! ELP were prog rock's first supergroup--coming from The Nice, King Crimson and Atomic Rooster---.ELP expanded rock's horizons and gave the prog genre so much--classical elements (which are always part of a true prog rock band), their extensive improvisations (ones that a lot of people out there criticized), their time signatures...They were innovators alchemists, mixing and matching musical genres.
I am confident the Lake/Palmer reunion this summer will be a sucess. I am sure there will be young fans attending who will be as excited and appreciative of their music as any of us who are still young at heart...From the Beginning...♫
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Posted By: Camel666
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 07:39
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Posted By: clotomic
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 09:12
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ExittheLemming Hello!
Your analysis is quite complete and has never escaped the way I think so. I began this topic by hearing concerns nuvos contributions, and for as much as is the thermometer when assessing the importance of EL & P musical |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 10:36
Clotomic Hello !  Already some interesting replies certainly. I was struck by a couple of references in the thread to 'over indulgence' or perhaps 'uber complexity' being the germs that brought the ELP critter down. In the case of the former I would concede that the sheer wanton chutzpah of playing with say, a 100 piece orchestra in the live environment was perhaps a dish just too rich for many proggers with nascent middle-age spread on their minds. In the case of the latter however, are Frank Zappa, Gentle Giant or King Crimson crtiicised because some feel their music is too complex ? (I mean 'too simple' is the normative barb thrust into the sides of bands who are deemed guilty of 'girly accessibility' or 'horrid catchiness') Of all the classic pioneering originals that are listed on PA, it is surely ELP who cop most of the revisionist flak fired by those who wish to convert the nursery in the House of Prog into a study (ELP were more interested in attempting a loft extension, but sadly failed  )-------------
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Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:06
Oops! Never mind!  ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:29
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ELP are one of the best bands in history, and who ever disagree should spontaneously self-combust in front of the computer monitor right now. What's that smell? They had awful moments, but then again, all prog had awful moments. And they made up for those moments by making some of the most stellar moments in musical history: 1.) they know how to play the music from the heart and to keep it simple, 2.) they played folk music, 3. )they made multi-vocal harmonies, 4,) they went deep into darkness and madness, on level with doom metal and Black Sabbath riffs, 5. )they had great blues moments and mouth harmonica 6.) they pioneered various aspects of electronic music and electronic drums 7.) they played Latino music, 8.) in their personal lives, they're good friends with various musicians, including The Sex Pistols members. I'm not making things up. ------------- |
Posted By: hawkmoon666
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:30
Well it's not like Zappa or King Crimson don't get their fair amount of criticism for their sometimes "over-indulgent" approach to music, do they? I mean, Zappa recorded 80 albums of varying (to say the least) quality and King Crimson... we don't even start with King Crimson, even if we are obviously talking about geniuses at work here. But the guys were (are) indeed nuts. Seriously, the line between "complexity" (good) and "convolution" (bad) or, alternatively, "technicism" and "musicality" (for lack of better terms) is a thin one. We are progressive rock fans here after all. We like our songs complex and possibly long but we (I, at least) still want songs, or we would all be listening to free jazz. Maybe because of the big personalities involved and their huge egos, ELP, more than any other, sort of became the epitome of this dicotomy, which is the one around which the whole world of prog revolves around. ELP ARE prog, with all its merits and faults. When prog works, it's complex, intelligent and touching, when it doesn't it's convoluted and over-indulgent. Therefore what I see here is not a critic towards ELP in particular, it's a characteristic of the genre, of which ELP are a perfect expression. |
Posted By: Camel666
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:43
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Jeez I just realised I have two different accounts logged in on my two computers. I don't even remember registering as "Hawkmoon666" Not that anybody would care, but it's the same person speaking
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 13:07
Some wax museum information here, if you don't mind. There was an attitude amongst many jazz/fusion musicians that was directed toward ELP and the growth and expansion of this mentality grew into their social indulgence with each other. It became a belief system. Anywhere from 1974 to 1978. It might be the same mentality of the guy who loves the Phila Eagles but hates the Giants. Billy Cobham and Carl Palmer fans would battle it out in front of me and I found the entire reality rather misleading. After years of exposure to this environment, I came to the conclusion that maybe jazz musicians felt that because Carl Palmer was in a rock band but, had the talent to play jazz, it offended their musical status. That was the impression I got. These people, with this kind of ideology about things were out-numbering the jazz players that had a wider exceptance of diverse musicians. It smelt like music college attitude. Whenever I was in a studio complimenting ELP, many great players would destroy the moment with vulgar comments.
I never quite understood how something of this nature could sky rocket someone's ego. The attitude itself lacked glory. Then the critics were chopping ELP to pieces. All of the horrible things that were written in reviews and various articles. Recorded statements etc. It seemed that ELP were attacked from 2 specific groups. Jazz musicians and critics. I still to this day, can not put things into perspective. I am very confused when pondering a reason or rhyme. Why? Because ELP are great players and at that point in time, the odds were not in their favour. Jealousy perhaps? |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 14:17
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No one with any appreciation of the history of prog can underestimate ELP's importance, and I speak as someone who, generally, is not a huge fan of the band. Whenever the BBC, or other broadcaster, does a history of prog, you can guarantee that ELP will feature very largely - unfortunately, usually, to emphasise the "overindulgence" of the genre. That is, of course, exceptionally unfair. This lot were, in their heyday, massive, they remain great musicians, and their great anthems remain, to this day, totemic to many prog listeners and other bands. As I said, I was never a huge fan, but I would never state that their importance was not fully recognised, and I have never taken a blind bot of notice of media or record industry hype or comments about our beloved genre - if I had, I would have gone mad years ago. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 17:45
Well said. The death of prog was a myth generated by the press. As we all know, its still alive and well, just no longer in the mainstream. As you say, the initial punk and grunge movements were short-lived mainstream successes before going back underground, too. First wave punk was over as soon as it started. By 79, the post punk new wavers were in. Even after punk hit, Pink Floyd, Yes, Zeppelin, and many other bands still sold out arenas. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 17:50
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The press have always been unkind to prog. Even now. Look in any music mag (except Classic Rock and its Prog spinoff, who champion the genre) these days, and you will probably see at least one article dissing Yes or ELP, etc. All of the music press seem to think punk was the second coming, and prog was just a bunch of pretentious, boys school musos twiddling guitars on stage. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: Eapo_q42
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 18:25
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As a person who prides himself on creating a (work-in-progress) excellent collection of all things prog rock, I own 5 ELP albums, everything from Emerson, Lake & Palmer to Brain Salad Surgery (including Pictures At An Exhibition). Naturally, I wouldn't have gone beyond buying 1 or 2 if i didn't like the music. That said, I listen to them *significantly* less than Genesis, Yes, Camel, KC, and countless other, less famous bands. What does it come down to? I love lead guitar virtuosity. I'm sorry if the simplicity of this reason is offensive to anyone, but that's just the way my taste guides me. I'm sure there are countless other prog rockers who feel the same. |
Posted By: Bitterblogger
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 20:09
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Generally, the rock music press has always disrespected prog. I think it's because they feel rock and roll should be basic, which for some reason has meant that complexity and virtuousity was somehow anti R&R (for some reason guitarists were OK though). Such "belongs" in the jazz or classical realms, which they couldn't support because that was music for the previous generations to when rock ascended to the top. ELP had the audacity to mix rock in with jazz and classical, and be comprised of virtuosos.
The nerve!
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 22:06
| I also accept that ELP are one of the most important Prog bands. For me, the problem is that none of the albums I have from them are truly excellent as a whole. I have found many songs I really love within their albums, but no album I completly like. And many songs, even some of the most acclaimed ones, I find rather annoying. As far as the guitar goes, I don't really mind it's absence, keyboards are really cool by themselves, and Emerson does such a great job that there isn't really a need for the guitar (and from time to time, you can hear Lake playing guitar, anyway, specially acoustic). All in all, because of the songs that I do like from the band, I can say I really like them. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 22:07
| Oh well, internet did something weird and posted my text thrice. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 22:07
| Sorry. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 22:26
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Even in their prime (first five albums) ELP was, at least for the people I hung out with, fairly controversial. Most of my friends liked the first two albums, even while not caring a rat's ass about Pictures. Fair enough.
Trilogy was where the real disconnect started. I think it's a flawed album with many great songs. Amongst my friends at the time, for those who were not ELP diehards the consensus was, "I'd rather listen to Brian Auger's latest." BSS did nothing to bring that on-the-fence crew back into the ELP camp.
Things only went downhill from there. You know the story...the triple-album live set, the Works albums. Hell, after that even I gave up, though out of habit I bought Love Beach, then I really gave up. Though out of habit I bought ELPowell, after which I really really gave up.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: no one did more to elevate the recognition of the keyboard as a legit rock instrument than Emerson. He was truly the 'Hendrix' of the Hammond and an absolute pioneer with regard to the synth.
I don't know how anyone could question their overall influence. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: flaxton
Date Posted: January 21 2010 at 12:41
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i remember as a 16 year old lisrtening to PICTURES for the first time. never heard anything like it. a band with no lead guitar, very rare. ------------- flaxton |
Posted By: ProgressiveAttic
Date Posted: January 21 2010 at 16:47
Being pretentious isn't a band thing.... it is one of the characteristics that make prog amazing.... + ELP is not cold just listen to Lake's ballads and it is obvious that they where having fun (and playing with their hearts) while playing pictures... and there is allot of emotions throughout Tarkus and they enjoyed themselves with the humorous songs... And I think that nobody should take himself to seriously.... after dense music pieces such as Tarkus, Karn Evil 9, The Endless Enigma, Trilogy, Pictures at an Exhibition, etc. humorous tracks like Benny the Bouncer, Are you Ready Eddie?, The Sheriff, Nutrocker, etc. help to make the atmosphere of the album easy to "digest" + what about Zappa (and most of the Canterbury scene)I don't think he ever wrote something serious but he is still a very serious musician.... PS: I you don't like ELP because of the absence of guitar please listen to The Nice's 2002 version of Tarkus, Hoedown and Fanfare for the common man + Boy's Club version of Tarkus(please neglect the lyrics....) and Hoedown ------------- Michael's Sonic Kaleidoscope Mondays 5:00pm EST(re-runs Thursdays 3:00pm) @ Delicious Agony Progressive Rock Radio(http://www.deliciousagony.com) 
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Posted By: LandofLein
Date Posted: January 21 2010 at 17:13
| I've never liked them all that much, but of all the prog bands, I would have to say that their sound is the best example of what prog is, even with the excesses. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 21 2010 at 21:56
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hell yeah... ELP should be... and probably is somewhere... listed in the dictionary as.. Prog - see ELP for all the good points...and the bad. They sort are prog in a nutshell.... brilliant when focused on their game... a disaster and open season for critics when egos, talents, and the music are unrestrained by good taste. ELP's importance is fully recognized.... every joke ever made about prog was probably made with ELP in mind haha. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 21 2010 at 22:00
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^ said like someone who really knows a band (you sound like me talkin about Zep ) |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 21 2010 at 22:03
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hahhaha... you got that right
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Leftoverture
Date Posted: January 23 2010 at 10:14
| all I know is that if the rumors of Jimi wanting to be the 4th member of ELP back in the day before he died (thus HELP), then I dont see why people dont give them their due. I got into ELP because of the fact I heard that rumor when I was in my teenage Hendrix phase back in '93 |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 23 2010 at 10:31
Regardless of the ruse concocted by the press re the Hendrix lie I am glad you took the opportunity to explore the music of what is for me, the finest prog rock band of all time. period.stop.amen. Just for the record, before Carl Palmer supplemented EL, Keith and Greg auditioned Mitch Mitchell (from the Experience) but he arrived with a couple of gun-toting bodyguards in tow. As you would expect Messrs Lake and Emerson thought this could be a 'bit heavy' and hurriedly bid fond adieu to the drummer who departed with a comment to the effect that "Jimi would love to jam with you guys' That's all it was, a throwaway remark that the British press blew up into HELP. (the mooted jam session never even materialised) -------------
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Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: January 23 2010 at 13:16
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I never heard about them till I get here. But that's not my, nor their fault I suppose.
------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: Thyme Traveler
Date Posted: January 23 2010 at 23:00
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When they were good, they were very very good; when they were bad... Love Beach. Without disrespecting one of Prog's most revered and influential groups (and I do count myself as a fan), my thoughts are this... Some of the greatest bands in Prog (Pink Floyd, Yes, Camel, and especially Genesis) were much greater than the sum of their parts. With ELP, I never got that feeling. ELP was never ELP > E + L + P, but always ELP = E + L + P. ------------- Fire up the flux capacitor ! We're taking this Delorean through all four dimensions. What is the future of prog ? Genesis reunion ? I'm not telling!That could upset the thyme/space continuum. |
Posted By: Thyme Traveler
Date Posted: January 23 2010 at 23:02
Actually in some cases (Works, Love Beach, and especially the retched In the Hot Seat) ELP was much less than E + L + P ------------- Fire up the flux capacitor ! We're taking this Delorean through all four dimensions. What is the future of prog ? Genesis reunion ? I'm not telling!That could upset the thyme/space continuum. |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: January 24 2010 at 00:27
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ELP were cool from 1971-1973. After that they lost the plot. Emerson was too much of a show pony too. They wouldn't make my top 10 prog bands of the 70s because they only have 3 studio albums I really enjoy ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 24 2010 at 11:19
funny... I thought of you and your post this morning when Raff picked out LZ III and we listened to it. Lord knows I've heard the album a 1000 times, but so much so I hadn't listened to it in years, you sort of sink into the 'familiarity breeds contempt' routine. To where LZ offhandedly can be written off as 'hype' or style or substance... yet when you really listen... you recognize the brilliance of it. not to say ELP suffers that same kind of treatment... some people just hate that group. But again... that speaks volumes to me as to their import. As I noted once in my TFTO review.... prog is simply the merging of music and art... as with any work of art.. some will love it.. some will hate it. The more avant the nature of the work of art... the more passionate the feeling on either side. That is why ELP is the eptimome of prog.. they didn't play it safe.. make simple inoffensive GENERIC 'prog' that your grandmother can listen to... *cough... Camel*.. at least until she dozes off. ELP was high art that pushed peoples buttons. and exploded existing notions of what you could.. or should do with music... and keyboards especially.. and since keyboards and their use is one of HALLMARKS of prog. It is really silly to argue that their was really any more important group in prog than ELP. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 24 2010 at 11:28
To add to my hubby's already wonderful post , I'd like to remind people that high art can often be offensive to the so-called 'masses', or at the very least misunderstood by them. Nowadays, Ravel's "Bolero" is unanimously considered a masterpiece of classical music, but, when it was first performed (Paris, 1928), it seems a woman shouted, "he's mad!" - to which the composer replied that she had really understood the piece.
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Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: January 24 2010 at 13:20
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Seems like I'm lacking something here by not knowing them, huh ? Are they something like basic need for every progster then ? Are they the soil on which others should grow ? Are they the dish on which we can lay or food, as opposite to eat raw meat from bare floor ? Just say the word. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: January 24 2010 at 13:35
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Agree with both of you M & R. ELP did more to push the envelope in the early 70's than any other group. The obvious of course was the synthesizer but more important making Keyboard a lead instrument. Bringing classical music to an audience never exposed to it but more important was the Gershwin, Bernstien, the jazz and the honky tonk styles also never exposed. They brought the one side of album epic that was more than just big jam (Who do You Love, In-A-Gadda_Da-Vida). An expertly composed theme with concept that incorporated multiple time changes, symphonic layering and new instrumentation. To this, then 17 year old taking piano lessons, watching them on the BSS tour it totally changed what I thought music was and how all styles can be incorporated. It erased the this is this and this is that lines I had drawn in my head.
It is unfortunate that they lost momentum after 1974 but those albums in those years more than cemented their importance. Even still with the exception of The Hot Seat (did not originally come with the studio Pictures. That was actually released on the earlier Return of The Manticore Box set) I can find something good on every LP.
Oh one last thought about those years 70-74. They never lost site of the fact they were having fun and that they played rock and roll. ------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 24 2010 at 13:53
well said Brian ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 24 2010 at 20:36
Well, you should know them, but that doesn't meen that you have to like them. I guess you can get quiet a good idea about what they are with this thread. For me, they have some very good moments and some very annoying moments (but then, that's true of most bands I like). Perhaps you should just hear them and make your own judgement. |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: January 25 2010 at 02:33
It's true. Youtube will do. Anyway, it's annoying, how everyone's talking about them (NO, THIS ISN't ANNOYING) and I dont understand it at all (THIS IS). Don't misinterpret me please. I think I heard once Tarkus I suppose, but didn't hear its greatness, when compared to other classic bands I know. Let's try it again, hopefully it will not fade away. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 25 2010 at 02:40
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it may be that the Tark is best when heard early in one's prog journey, the magic captured forever |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: January 25 2010 at 02:45
I first heard Tarkus very early in my prog journey and it scared me off ELP for a long time For a couple of years they were "that weird armadillo band" even though I did enjoy parts of Karn Evil 9 when I heard it soon after Tarkus. ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA! 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 25 2010 at 02:53
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^ me too actually , but I heard it first at the age of about 9 (I liked that sci-fi cover!), so it wasn't till young adulthood that I realized how good it is |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: January 25 2010 at 04:02
That's it. I'm 21 now, so this experience wouldn't be nostalgia, but instead - more intelligent and "suspicious" close look on what's good about their music and what is not. That's somehow sad. If I had a chance, I could love them more then I would be able now. There's no denying. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 25 2010 at 21:59
You may already know that Prog usually requires repeated listening to unerstand what's going on and apreciate it, so you may just as well try again, and again, and again, until you are sure you do like them or not. I myself don't like many of their songs, and I don't like all of Tarkus, but some parts of it are uneniably amazing. |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: January 26 2010 at 04:08
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Nothing wrong with bombast. Just means they know what they are doing and do it all brilliantly - in concert. Even though there's bits I can live without (half of Works 1 and Lake's solo material) - I actually think Works 2 works better. But they do not have too many truly great albums. Since BSS there have been none. Not for 36 years has there been anything more than fairly half hearted efforts. They might have done a 90125 Yes / mainstream Genesis thing... but they did not so ELP kind of fall off the edge there. \ But the studio albums... they need classics and I'm afraid that opportunity (which always knocked) passed them by. It's not the axe hero thing either. Genesis - even with Hackett were not a guitar god band and the mainstream Genesis were hugely successful - no Hackett. ELP are and were a tremendous band, great musicians and some good related releases (their debut is unbelievably superb IMHO) but mainstream wise it's Karn Evil 9's radio extract and that's it for the mainstream. And for the devotee? Live albums (nearly as many as John Wetton) a-plenty. Some really good ones (and some dodgy disguised WBMFTTSTNE reissues), |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 26 2010 at 07:48
I don't know, I heard Karn Evil 9 first and got to Tarkus much later and maybe because of that I was able to appreciate that Tarkus is a better piece of composition (imo!). Great, great band though I tend to agree with those who said that they could have put out more great albums, I tend to recall great songs and moments instead. I think the guitar hero point is definitely valid and - to reignite an old debate
 - probably accounts for the increased following of Camel vis-a-vis ELP. |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: January 26 2010 at 12:27
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When listening to Tarkus keep in mind it was the first epic of its kind. It was released in 1971 way before Close to the Edge, Thick as Brick and Suppers Ready.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 26 2010 at 21:40
| Atom Heart Mother was released in 1970. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 26 2010 at 21:45
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AHM was a long piece of music.. an instrumental, a good excuse to get stoned..but not a prog 'epic' on order of the examples Brian mentioned with some kind of point to it. Otherwise we could drag In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida into the conversation haha. Long song... kick ass jam... but no prog 'epic'
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 26 2010 at 22:04
| For me AHM fits perfectly as an epic, and perhaps even prog (even if it's not got such complex structures). It is a perfectly cohesive piece of music, with repeated themes, and even the messy noisy part at the middle of the song serves it's purpose and (even though I don't like it so much) I wouldn't do without it when hearing the song. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 26 2010 at 22:05
| For me AHM fits perfectly as an epic, and perhaps even prog (even if it's not got such complex structures). It is a perfectly cohesive piece of music, with repeated themes, and even the messy noisy part at the middle of the song serves it's purpose and (even though I don't like it so much) I wouldn't do without it when hearing the song. |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: January 27 2010 at 00:04
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^ I disagree Tarkus is a completely orchestrated piece of music with far more structure and concept than AHM. Besides the fact that any of The Nice albums were far more prog that AHM in concept and execution. Pink Floyd at this point wasn't much more than a jam band. But more to the point how much of this album influenced the bands that came after it in the short term. Looking at the structure of the other pieces I mentioned I think it is pretty clear and it is not AHM. -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: January 27 2010 at 02:45
It does, that's right. But most of music I've been listening (prog music), didn't want repeated listens, only few. I of course will give them a chance. If this chance fails, I'll give more, I just wanted to say that it's not easy catch of my heart. I've talked about it with my girl and have to say that she also heart them once, but didn't remember much of their music. "A lot of solos & improvisations, maybe too much" she said. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: January 27 2010 at 03:56
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I don't actually like most ELP that I've heard, but the early stuff is undenably great prog.
My personal opinion is that most of The Nice output is far superior to any of the ELP material - but ELP are the influential ones, and carried on the tradition set by The Nice, taking the musical ideas to new and more ridiculous levels...
10/10 for effort in the early years, 0/10 for "Love Beach".  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Malve87
Date Posted: January 27 2010 at 05:21
That's Genesis...and Pink Floyd, too... Anyway ELP is not my favorite band, but I like them; you have to thank punk (  ) for today's ELP "reputation"...the fools... ------------- ] 
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Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: January 27 2010 at 05:24
At first (last year), I didn't like Gentle Giant. Now, I quite like them. I almost wanted to say: "Don't teach eagle to fly." ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 27 2010 at 06:36
I stongly disagree with that, PF's psychedelic music was the end of a compositional effort, contrary to jam and improvisation. I do agree with you on your main stand though, AHM and Tarkus do represent completely different stages of development for progressive rock (like adolescence and maturity). They can't really be part of the same discussion. |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: January 27 2010 at 19:33
Yeah. Punk failed to kill prog in 77 (despite what the media might tell you), but damn, it did kill the media's perception of prog. I still see Yes and ELP jabs in the mainstream music press... It is a big media beat-up, though. Prog didn't just vanish in 1977, as we all know here. It's just that public tastes and attitudes changed. They reverted to wanting to hear 2 or 3 minute songs, rather than epics. That said, the big stadium bands that punk wanted to kill off were still selling out huge tours in the late 70s. Zeppelin played to a massive crowd at Knebworth 79, right? Pink Floyd were still reeling them in. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 27 2010 at 19:50
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and Prog still gets a cold shoulder, at least in the write-ups and articles I read (granted they're usually by non-progophiles), with the winking and derisive 'humor' about an indulgent, inconsiderate form of music... you'd think by now things would've come around and the genre would get the appreciation it surely deserves - that some maverick in music journalism with the guts and insight to give credit where it's due would stand up - but no, it's still more than cool to Prog-bash, even with Genesis' HoF induction. So be it. Their loss. |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: January 27 2010 at 20:07
| ELP doesn't seem that unapproachable to me as many have said. It was definitely the first prog I ever heard and I was immediately drawn in. That being said, it was the first album, not that "welcome back my friends" garbage. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: January 28 2010 at 02:52
I stongly disagree with that, PF's psychedelic music was the end of a compositional effort, contrary to jam and improvisation. [/QUOTE] That is partly true;
Some of Pink Floyd's early work was kind of drafted, like an architectural blueprint (3 of the Floyd were architecture students, IIRC), and they created a framework containing pre-composed ideas - but improvised heavily around this structure.
That was the main difference between them and regular psychedelic bands - and, seemingly contradictorily why they sound so much like them too.  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Losendos
Date Posted: February 02 2010 at 00:23
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great band in their heyday but their fall was hard and they never got a second wind unlike Genesis Yes and Pink Floyd. Some how they got identified with all that was wrong with prog which is totally unfair even to being dubbed the second worst band of all time . Brain salad surgery must be one of the best ten prog albums of all time but even prog fans are divided about this band .
Some random thoughts ; I think in the end karma plays a hand in what one's legacy is . Maybe the Gods did not like the regular atheist tracks. ------------- How wonderful to be so profound |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: February 03 2010 at 19:21
| ELP are very well recognised, and deserving of every bit of attention they recieve, but what really irks me are some of the groups inspired by ELP, like Triumvirat, Latte e Miele, or even Le Orme and Triade and The Trip that somehow, with one thing or another, have tended to get lost in the shuffle. These groups have even made music better than ELP, and are really unrecognised-that is the real tragedy! |
Posted By: ProgressiveAttic
Date Posted: February 03 2010 at 19:59
What about Black Moon and to a lesser extent In The Hot Seat (its far far away from being their best but it contains some nice tunes + a spectacular version of Pictures at an Exhibition) ------------- Michael's Sonic Kaleidoscope Mondays 5:00pm EST(re-runs Thursdays 3:00pm) @ Delicious Agony Progressive Rock Radio(http://www.deliciousagony.com)
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Posted By: billsibb
Date Posted: February 04 2010 at 04:29
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Hello Prog Lovers,
This is a really interesting debate - and long overdue; as one old enough to cite a newly-formed ELP as my introduction to the genre I still say, to this day, they have never been surpassed in everything that is and was "prog". They were by no means the first prog band - the genre evolved slowly from the psych/art rock movement, but I think they were all that was prog and everything that entailed, and in my very humble opinion, everything else has been a poor imitation. There have been many bands of equal talent (or even better), particularly from other parts of Europe, but for me ELP=prog.
Thanks everyone for a great forum, and best wishes from one who was there! ------------- ".......nobody ever messed with the sherriff" |
Posted By: raindance
Date Posted: February 05 2010 at 04:53
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There where only three prog bands that were elevated to superstar status
1. PINK FLOYD
2 YES
3 ELP
Yes, they were very important to the prog genre
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Posted By: Losendos
Date Posted: February 05 2010 at 05:00
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genesis were superstars sold out wembley 4 days running.
Supertramp were also superstars
The moodies were superstars too
King Crimson are legends but that is somewhat different ------------- How wonderful to be so profound |
Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: February 05 2010 at 08:33
Genesis were popular in the 70s but not really top level superstars, that came more with their 1980s pop incarnation. Supertramp and the Moody Blues are more crossover bands and not strictly prog IMO. ELP really were huge in the early and mid-70s with only Yes rivalling them for global commercial success among prog bands. They were one of the four biggest grossing live acts in 1974 along with Led Zep et al and co-headlined the California Jam with Deep Purple. ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 13 2010 at 05:39
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If this helps, you all should know that Homer Simpson is a fan. There. I think this volumes about ELP's recognition. You can see it for yourselves here: http://%20www.wtso.net/movie/471-2111_Million_Dollar_Maybe.html - http:// www.wtso.net/movie/471-2111_Million_Dollar_Maybe.html The ELP moment is 3 minutes in and is so full of win  |
Posted By: clotomic
Date Posted: February 15 2010 at 00:40
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Excelente las respuestas que he leído en este foro.
El trío es sobriamente respetable y admirable. La magnitud del aporte a la evolución musical de ELP, y la manera fresca y virtuosa como lo han hecho es motivo incluso para un Premio Nobel... Sin embargo espero se haya comprendido que es difícil imaginar para ELP la popularidad de las "estrellas" mercadeadas por la "industria de la fama". Haría falta mayor educación de la sensibilidad musical. Inicié este foro por cierta nostalgia por esa "popularidad"... el reconocimiento mundial que ELP amerita. Ahora Keith recibe premio en Berlín! (Excellent responses I've read in this forum. The trio is soberly respectable and admirable. The magnitude of the contribution to the musical development of ELP and how fresh and virtuous as they have done it, is cause even for a Nobel Prize ... However I hope is understood that it is difficult imagine for ELP the popularity of the marketed "stars" by the "industry of fame". It would require more education of musical sensibility. I started this forum for a certain nostalgia for the "popularity" ... worldwide recognition that ELP requires. Now Keith receives award in Berlin!) Clotomic |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 15 2010 at 00:44
No-- that's Genesis as a pop band, not a prog one and Pink Floyd trandscends "prog" and even rock as one of most popular entities of all time |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 15 2010 at 02:29
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Great thread.I've been away for a while but good to be back.
ELP were a problematic band to say the least. I think most of the main points have been covered but I would say the reasons they are not considered to be as important as say Genesis or Yes are as follows:
a) ELP best music came in a short period -1970-1974.
b) ELP were not a musically consistent band like Pink Floyd. You have to accept their quirky side on tracks like Benny The Bouncer to really appreciate them.
c) They were not as intellectual as Floyd and Genesis so the lyrics seemed childish compared to those bands.
d)In 1977 music critics used them as an example of all that had gone wrong in music (although ELP brought this on themselves with the misguided Works Volume One).In affect their legacy was downgraded which is one reason I have an almost pathological hatred of music critics.Of course ELP fell off a cliff creatively from about that time but the albums they made between 1970 and 1974 still hold up and should be regarded as being as important as anything else from that time (IMO)
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