Transatlantic - superb band, but those religious..
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63573
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Topic: Transatlantic - superb band, but those religious..
Posted By: mamboboy
Subject: Transatlantic - superb band, but those religious..
Date Posted: December 14 2009 at 17:29
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...lyrics put me off so, so much! Being an atheist it really makes me cringe to hear some of the lines. The 'Dancing with eternal glory , whirlwind' is probably the best (or worst) example of this. An epic 12 minute song, but it's all about God! "...and you're dancing with eternal glory, taking that step to another land. you are dancing with eternal glory, don't be afraid, go and take his hand"  It all really brings the album down a few levels to me, anyone else finding this? Or are most okay with it? I mean, I have nothing against Christian bands, but Transatlantic throw it right in your face in some songs... |
Replies:
Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: December 14 2009 at 17:30
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Oh god no. Not again. We have religion/atheism/pastafarianism/deism/paganism/troll threads for this purpose. (No offence intended to the poster, but we have a few thousand of these threads per day) |
Posted By: valravennz
Date Posted: December 14 2009 at 17:33
^ 
------------- 
"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence" - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: mamboboy
Date Posted: December 14 2009 at 17:35
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I'm not trolling or trying to stir up a religious argument at all, my friend. I apologies if it's brought up a lot here, but I was just wondering if it bothers anyone else. I'm more than happy to listen to Christian bands, but sometimes with Transatlantic I feel as though I'm listening to a band on God TV... |
Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: December 14 2009 at 17:37
No worries, if you want to talk about religious themes in prog, there are plenty of threads already made to serve that purpose. These just become troll-fests for those who like that kind of thing. |
mamboboy wrote:Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 14 2009 at 17:45
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Yep. Do a search on Neal Morse, and you will probably find 10 threads worth of folks who are turned off by his religious overtones. For the most part, his lyrics don't bother me too much. I take them for the positive message that they are trying to convey, even if the message doesn't agree with my own beliefs or lack thereof. ------------- 
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 14 2009 at 19:15
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I think the lyrics are the least of their problems. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: The Block
Date Posted: December 14 2009 at 19:25
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The lyrics might be about god but that is Neal Morse , it's his style. -------------  |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 02:57
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Mambo - look at my review for my alternative take on the lyrics.
Morse - in his lyrics in the Whirlwind, the last track I think, makes the same mistake all uneducated god-botherers make - that the Evolution of the third chimpanzee was "Chance" natural selection has nothing to do with chance.........We have got a Mormon Temple in Swinton, thus I have had quite a few interesting conversations with nice guys in sharp business suits, trouble is they just won't listen to reason.... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: Basíleia
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 11:38
I don't know why, but actually, I really like the lyrics on The Whrilwind... I generally can't stand Christian bands (that really áre Christian, of course!), although I am a Christian myself... With the Whirlwind, I kind of like it, hearing those cheesy, God-washed lyrics of Neal Morse... It makes me happy 
Joren
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 11:53
| I've never checked them out, but there's something to be said about a good prog instrumental, eh? |
Posted By: Morsenator
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 12:01
| I'm a fan and a Christian so I guess you may think I'm not very objective on this matter, but I must say that I like some lyrics of The Whirlwind quite a bit. Especially parts like "Rose Colored Glasses" and "On the Prowl" have some clever and good lyrics. And I seriously can't say that from all of Morse's albums (Lifeline comes first in mind). Anyway, I don't find Whirlwind particularly over-cliché-Christian (with possibly an exception of the last track). |
Posted By: miketheorganist
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 18:03
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What amazes me is that atheist prog fans get so offended by lyrics about God. What makes this any worse than any other topic? Why not just assign it to the realm of fantasy? You know, like, "What if there WERE such a being?" I mean, we can wonder about UFOs, ghosts, conspiracy theories, 2012, and have incomprehensible lyrics aplenty, but mention God and it's in the dumpster with it? I mean, if I can manage to listen to a fasntasy story about a lamb lying down on broadway, with slippermen, hairless hearts, etc., why can't you listen to fantasy story about a supreme being who loves people?
------------- A spirit with a vision is a dream with a mission! www.facebook.com/kineticelementband |
Posted By: Thkasabrk
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 19:50
Religious lyrics do not bother me. To me prog is a style of music that lends itself to any and all subject matter (as, I suppose, all types of music do.) If the music is good and the lyrics are at least halfway intelligent, I'll listen! 
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 19:55
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You don't like the lyrics. You post a thread stating how you don't like the lyrics. You waste my time by having me look at it. I'm sorry but starting a thread about EVERYTHING WE DON'T LIKE is just poor forum behavior. If you don't like it, so what? We don't care, buddy.  You're an atheist. I'm a Christian. I agree with Neal Morse. You don't. Get over it! Wow, I'm actually getting angry right now  -Jeff ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 20:02
Speaking as an atheist prog fan, I do not get offended by lyrics about God. I've mentioned this in another thread, I just don't like Christian lyrics that are "preachy". I'll admit an almost complete ignorance or Neil Morse's lyrics. I've just read enough opinions that I trust on here to say, thanks, but I'll pass. Huge fan of 70's Kansas, though. I think Kerry Livgren was most responsible for the religious themed lyrics back then, but they never impressed me as explicitly Christian (Epignosis will correct me if I'm mistaken). I think Nobody's Home came the closest to being eC. Jesus returning home to Earth to find we had wiped us all out. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 20:39
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I'm an atheist and a Transatlantic fan. Morse is entitled to his beliefs. It doesn't bother me that much. It doesn't offend me any more than prog bands singing about fairies or dragons, or the year 2112. Or metal bands singing about Satan. Since I don't believe in God, I don't believe in the devil, either. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 20:43
------------- |
Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 20:52
There would be no interesting discussion or opinions on this forum if we ignored negative aspects of a band. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 22:24
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As a person who is quite adept at divorcing himself from the lyrical content of a song (I bump the odd gangster rap album despite finding many of the values espoused completely wrong-headed) I can't say the religious aspect of The Whirlwind bothered me. No, what gets me is that it's an awful, soulless, all shiny wrapper and no actual candy album, an Emperor's New Clothes if ever there was one.
Possibly the best example of great musicians playing terrible music I've ever witnessed.
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 02:27
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I love how all the people putting down this thread are offended by the topic. Don't like it - don't read it. Let people make threads. Gawd. |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 06:44
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Religious people attempting to defend their irrational devotion to ideas that occured to (ignorant) pre-scientific bronze-age nomads.........
Who would have thought it eh? ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: Basíleia
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 09:54
What is the diference with praise-threads? They are all about what people like, or dislike, that doesn't matter. And why would we suddenly cáre if somebody were to post a thread stating he completely loves Genesis, when we don't care if sombody were to post a thread about hating Yes...?
 By the way, I like Transatlantic's lyrics in general...Neal Morse rules!!!
 |
Posted By: Nightshine
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 10:01
| It's great that I hated The Whirlwind and think it's the second-worst album of this year. This is one of the many reasons why I hated it so much. |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 10:50
This is the completely irrational belief that eating lasagna, spaghetti bolognese or fetucini alfredo can induce a state of consciousness which brings one closer to God. Smoking the above dishes is even better. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 11:17
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A lot of the reaction to Christian-influenced lyrics nowadays has to do with the role that Christianity has played on a socio-political level. The right-wing parties have aligned themselves with Christian beliefs, which is awful, because political sides are at such odds with each other that almost everyone has strong emotions against the other political alignment. In the 60's nobody cared when Bob Dylan wrote Christian songs - back then, it was just about peace and love and smoking some really good pot. Nowadays, it's associated with assassinating abortion doctors, throwing gays under the bus (ideologically and figuratively speaking), and demonizing liberal political beliefs. Neal Morse probably wants nothing to do with the political side of evangelical Christianity at all, but this is the cultural climate we're in now. It's hard for some people to get their head around something associated with the conservative political side in something as liberal as progressive rock music... just my $.02... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 11:49
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Jeff: he's not wasting your time by having you look at it, he hasn't even asked you to look it, it's more like if you really feel that you are wasting your time, then you're wasting your own time by looking at it (and as corollary, writing a post). The title is clear enough, and so reading the posts is easily avoided by those who don't like such topics (unless, like with admin, it's part of their responsibility to read). :p It's interesting to me, though, that we get so many posts lamenting Christian lyrics, as well as those posts that react to such lamentation, yet so little about pagan, atheistic, anti-Christian/ religion, satanic, non-Christian-religious etc. lyrics. When was the last time, for instance, that we saw a topic expressing disapproval for Matching Mole because of "God Song?" Now go play some Coven! lol ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Guitar1Jesse
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 12:06
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I just purchased my first Transatlantic album, SMPT:e, but haven't listened to it yet. I did not know that Transatlantic had religious lyrics. I'm not a Christian, but I do understand why people believe in it despite some obvious hypocrasies and contradictions. Actually, I envy religious people to a point. But anyway, it usually doesn't bother me a whole lot when lyrics have religious overtones (Shadow Gallery for example I can listen to all day long!) I am curious now about SMPT:e. I better go listen!
------------- Take a few minutes and listen to this! http://www.myspace.com/jlangmusic |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 12:29
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As someone who has in the past reacted adversely to christian lyrics, I find this kind of interesting. What I've discovered, for myself, is that if I just absorb the music and lyrics, without passing judgments but instead trying to feel the music and lyrics as the writer intended, then it really doesn't matter what the subject is. Morse used to write lyrics that meant absolutely nothing (according to interviews with him I read around the time of Day For Night, a few years before he was a born again). Now he writes about one particular subject dear to his heart. I get into that while the music is playing, and go back to my own world when it ends. On the whole I think organized religion is a relic of mankind's spiritual adolescence (or maybe even childhood) and needs to be cast off and evolved out of. But I find most of Morse's lyrics on the subject to be fairly interesting, or at worst tolerable. Certainly no worse than Tolkien inspired lyrics, or lyrics about satan (a fantasy creature who would not exist were it not for Christianity..........who, of course, borrowed the idea from older mythologies). Anyway, I don't find TA's lyrics to be very blatantly Christian, and only the last section of the Whirlwind do I find kind of tedious. But that actually has more to do with the music than the lyrics. The rest of the album I think is quite good and the lyrics are decent, if not particularly inspired. |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 12:50
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What is truly shocking is that Neal Morse is always under fire for his lyrics, and nobody seems to notice the truly atrocious lyrics we have all put up with for years. Take Asia's "One Step Closer", for example. "One Step closer, much closer than before". Really? If one step brings Mr. Wetton MUCH closer, it's safe to say he wasn't very far to begin with. Not much of an accomplishment that one step, then, is it? :-P Sorry, I'm in a weird mood. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 13:26
| Yeah it's just like in King Of Carrot Flowers by Neutral Milk Hotel, where he starts yelling out "Jesus Christ, I love you" again and again. I know he's having a serious spiritual moment and all but it's a bit too solemn and sacred for me. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 13:35
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Even though I'm an atheist, I really enjoy listening to the Neal Morse solo albums ... they're not that preachy except for a few passages, and I like the positivity. On the new Transatlantic album it puts me off occasionally, but I can still enjoy it - and I didn't notice any Christian tendency on the previous two albums.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 13:41
Asia is a joke we're largely all in on, while far fewer of us get the joke that is -. . .- .-.. / -- --- .-. ... . (I wrote it in Morse Code so as not to offend ).------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 13:43
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Further, we don't get that many complaints about Jon Anderson's almost incomprehensible new age lyrics (and I am a huge fan). Morse does not force Christianity down people's throats, and many of his lyrics apply even if you are an atheist. Universal love & etc is not confined to Christians. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 13:48
Neal Morse code? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 14:11
Though I know it doesn't need spelling out ( ), it's one Morse's code for another Morse who shall go Christian nameless (so as not to offend).------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 14:21
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Eh, I'm really not that familiar with Neil, but I like Steve a lot. Plus you don't get dosed with religion in his music unless you consider him to be a guitar God.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 17:42
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I've been moderately impressed with Transatlanticin the past, and the religious aspect of the lyrics hasn't bothered me at all (I also enjoy Nick Cave and Leonard Cohen, both of whom have written songs with explicitly christian lyrics). I'm not really into any of the parent bands, aside from Fish era Marillion, and I'm not much into neo prog either, but even so I'm a bit of a fan. SMPTe was a bit hit and miss for me, but Bridge Across Forever was a fine slice of retro prog and Duel With The Devil is a genuinely excellent old school prog epic, one of only two I've really rated in recent years (the other one being IQ's Harvest of Souls).
Having said all that, I've been disappointed by The Whirlwind so far, although I've only listened to it properly a couple of times. It's not so much the lyrics - although Neal Morse does seem to be proselytising more than on the previous two outings - it's more the feeling that there's about 40 - 45 minutes worth of good material spread rather thinly across 77 slightly incoherent minutes. A bit like Yes circa TFTO, they've rather overplayed their hand this time. It might grow on me, but I think it would have been better if they'd called it quits after their second album. ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: miketheorganist
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 18:35
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I too think Morse has gotten some complaints about his lyrics for along these lines simply because of the political climate, the mistaken belief that Christians want to "make a theocracy," and the hypocritical behavior of some high profile Christians. Whereas I believe Christianity is a spiritual journey and a state of mind guided by Scripture, it is a shame many Christians have made it into a "do as I say" ordinary religion. My sense is that Morse feels the same way and is just expressing the joy in his heart. While Christians I know would love to see America return to God (as the Founders stated, it was for a religious and moral people that the Constitution was intended, so that by most people "governing the self" out of a sense of responsibility to the Creator, a NON-intrusive government would be possible), NO rational Christian expects to force anyone into that direction, or wants the religious tenets encoded into law except so far as to reflect the sense of having "guard rails" so society doesn't drive off the cliff at the bend in the road. Our sense of right and wrong comes from the Judaeo-Christian moral code which ultimately derives from the Ten Commandments, and as I read them I can't help but wonder what a great world it would be if everyone followed them simply of their own free will. And as I said in another post, someone who finds God-lyrics objectionable can always just consider the subject matter to be a fantasy like some other stuff we listen to. Then he can enjoy the music again. Mike V. www.myspace.com/kineticelement ------------- A spirit with a vision is a dream with a mission! www.facebook.com/kineticelementband |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: December 17 2009 at 03:19
Is that right??? Actually the "Thou shalt not Kill" only actually applies to a jew killing a jew (or it did when it was laid down.....It's the old "you can't have morals without religion" bollox.....
Think before you tripe....I reckon  ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: dave-the-rave
Date Posted: December 17 2009 at 14:12
| I'm an atheist, but I rather like 'Dancing with Eternal Glory.' Even more controversially, I am really enjoying 'The Whirlwind' these past few weeks. Perhaps it IS candy, but it is bright, shiny, tasty candy. I don't think it's on par with "Gates of Delirium" or TFTO, but I kind of like how Transatlantic's music always feels happy, rather than serious. 35 years after first buying TFTO, I still listen to it fairly often. I don't think 'The Whirlwind' will live up to that, but I think it's great for a night of no-strings-attached aural fun. |
Posted By: TheCaptain
Date Posted: December 18 2009 at 16:12
Well said.
I would love to see your source on that claim. I can find nothing around the Ten Commandments in my version of the Bible that suggests that. And to be an utter pedant:  Now to address the actual topic of the thread. Yes, I too despise the lyrics in the final part of The Whirlwind. I normally have the lyrics wash over me while not comprehending them at all, but I can't do that in this case. There is so little musically happening when the lyrics first pop up, then they are repeated many times so you are forced to pay attention to them. All I can say is be glad they only pop up in the last song. ------------- Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal. |
Posted By: m2thek
Date Posted: December 19 2009 at 16:35
| I don't understand why it's any different than any other lyrical content. It's not like he's trying to convert you with they lyrics. It's a very powerful piece, because Morse is singing about something that really moves him. |
Posted By: MarcZRockSoul Blues
Date Posted: March 28 2010 at 13:37
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To Textbook,
The beauty of music is that it is purely subjective. If it works for you and touches your soul, then it fulfills it's promise and purpose. In my opinion (which is only important to me) I totally disagree with you regarding the quality of music on this Whirlwind album. I am a spiritual man, not a "religious" man and I have no problem with Neal Morse or anyone expressing their soul in whatever floats their boat.
The musicians in Transatlantic can turn tuning their respective instruments in to beautiful noise. I have yet to hear ANY songs from these four talents that is not worthy and beautiful in some way. I was not surprised to instantly love these songs the first time I heard them and with each listen as they become more familiar they just keep getting better. I am anxiously awaiting their show on 4/17/10 in Downey, CA. By then I will be able to sing along with the lyrics.
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Posted By: javier0889
Date Posted: March 28 2010 at 15:21
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Yes' Close to the Edge (song) is about searching for God. Tales From Topographic Oceans is about God and the Creation. Both are amazing prog pieces. What's the problem? Although I'm an atheist, I'm not bothered by this kind of things. It's their vision, and they have the right to believe in any God, as I have the right to be an atheist as well. If Neal Morse thinks God saved his life, good for him. He's happy with that. And I don't care, I think Spock's Beard and Transatlantic are just too good to stop listening to them only because I don't agree with Morse's beliefs. |
Posted By: Basíleia
Date Posted: March 28 2010 at 15:30
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Posted By: miketheorganist
Date Posted: March 28 2010 at 17:35
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Thank you Javier. After all, let's say God is just a fantasy. Is He any less a trip than Lord of the Rings? Seems to me if we can enjoy lyrics about other trips why not His? And besides, if this little excursion inspires the kind of incredible music we usually receive not only from TA but most prog bands, what's the problem? You said it very well. ------------- A spirit with a vision is a dream with a mission! www.facebook.com/kineticelementband |
Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: March 28 2010 at 18:01
Agreed. I actually enjoy "Dancing with Eternal Glory". |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 28 2010 at 18:05
I would be inclined to agree with you, but for one detail. The Lord of the Rings, or any kind of fantasy literature (mythology, fairy tales, and so on) have never been responsible for wars, or the death and persecution of millions of human beings, as any kind of organized religion throughout the ages unfortunately has. Mind you, I am an agnostic who respects the right of people to believe in what they want - as long as they do not try to force it down the throats of those who disagree with them. I don't agree with those militant atheists who get a kick out of insulting religious people, even when those people are anything but dangerous fanatics. However, I was born in Rome, raised in the Catholic faith, and know something about the history of the world - so I am aware of the negative role played by organized religion in the past as well as nowadays. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 28 2010 at 19:22
hahahhahha oh the horror ..someone who believes differently from you. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: March 28 2010 at 20:17
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^ more to the point "I love this music but the beliefs of the writer offend me so much i cannot listen." To me that speaks of being very closed minded and intolerant. There are very few things that I love that I would turn off to the beliefs of the writer with the possible following exceptions 1. Who advocates sexual intercourse with children and animals. especially violent 2. Who advocate violent crimes against women sexual or not 3. Who advocate violent crimes against anyone else not listed. 4. People who scam or steal from others using their innocence, trust, love and senility against them. (There are religious leaders and spokespeople who fall into this category but most don't including Neal Morse. I think there are far more politicians who fall into this camp) 5. Most Toby Kieth songs Other than that are you really insulted that Neal Morse puts an invitation in his songs to come to God? any more so than a religious person might have felt when Greg Lake wrote "and when the hour comes don't turn away. Face the light of day and do it your way"? Just let it go and enjoy the music. Oh to answer a point by Slarty earlier Kerry Livgren wrote about religious ideas in his early albums mostly about eastern religions ideas up until his conversion in 1979. It was after that even that his lyrics became overtly Christian in Nature and evangelical in thought. (Think Hold On, Crossfire) Kerry has learned over the years to make his lyrics less in your face and more introspective but undeniably about Christ. You can read his book Seeds of Change if you want his views on the subject.
------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 29 2010 at 00:32
The only snag is that Christian oriented lyrics ain't fantasy for those that write them i.e. there is a moral agenda at work. ------------- 
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 29 2010 at 00:52
I semi-agree; their w**ky, long-ass songs are a big problem. Probably has to do with having an ex-Speck's Beard member and a TFK member in the band. (Trewavas should at least try to minimize the masterbation as per Marillion's style). ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 29 2010 at 01:27
In fact there were like three such threads in two years. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: March 29 2010 at 01:30
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speech |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 29 2010 at 01:57
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^ I know ... I'm just saying. Apparently there's a lot of cranky people at PA lately, ready to knee-jerk for a large number of reasons.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: March 29 2010 at 02:40
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I suffer from complete lyric-deafness. Really, I hear the words, can even sing along with some albums but somehow I don't register the meaning of it. The result of too much Dio and Iron Maiden listening in my music-formative years I guess... So the lyrics didn't bother me a bit on the Whirlwind. Everything else did. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: March 29 2010 at 03:01
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^ ------------- http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: rod65
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 16:18
| My own take on the subject has nothing to do with the religious element per se. Like many other commenters on this thread, I believe that any idea can be put into music, and that prog is music that lends itself to ideas. Where I have difficulty with Whirlwind is in the lack of subtlety in the lyrics. The Christian element is present as an idea in both of their previous studio albums, but it never really hits you over the head: it is there if you listen for it, and the sensibility is there at all times, and helps to hold the music together in a way that I find most enjoyable. In Whirlwind, this is not the case for me. I might draw a comparison with Galleon, whose musicianship is excellent and whose ideas I generally tend to agree with, but to whose lyrics I can barely stand to listen to as they seem to have been written with a sledghammer. Same for Whirlwind. Any idea is fine, but the lyricist needs to have the right touch. In this case, unfortunately, Morse's hand was a little too heavy. |
Posted By: Medicine Melancholy
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 10:37
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Sorry for bumping an old thread, but I was listening to Transatlantic today and really wanted to comment on this. I think it's a bit much that people are pulling the "entitled to their beliefs" card while coming down like a ton of bricks on anyone who's offended by it. This is absurd. Even when I was Christian I never felt comfortable with largely Christian themes in music. A big part of the problem, again, is that it's got a very different significance to writing a song based on fantasy themes, the keyword here being fantasy, it's not something people make a religion out of generally. Even if that person is a bit of a nut and sort of believes in fairies and wizards, they would do so in a much more vague way in a similar way that a lot of songwriters write songs about vaguely spiritual themes. I didn't realise this was a mostly Christian themed album at first. What actually gave it away was just the overall sound and production - it sounded very Christian Rock to me. While there were some good tracks, the overall feel was a little obnoxious. I feel it could have benefited from a more oldschool production, filtered off high end, more reverb, etc. Some King Crimson stuff was pretty laid back, but it had a kind of ambience to it. Then some tracks with blatantly Christian lyrics came on, it was just too much for me. Yes, perhaps it's something that "Means a lot" to him, but it's something I'm personally uncomfortable with. The other thing that bothers me about "Christian" music is the anti-individualistic element to it. This isn't a cup of coffee, it's Jesus's cup of coffee. You can't appreciate something for what it is, nothing has any material or spiritual significance on it's own. Because of that it's hard to enjoy Christian music since it's generally not written in a way that's "about this, but also sort of about something else, it's about a general feeling really". Neal left Spock's Beard because God wanted him to do something else. What about what he wanted to do? Someone else is making up his mind for him... While a lot of atheists in this thread can still enjoy it for the overall positive feeling, I don't think it's something a non-Christian could ever get fully into. You can suck up the positivity, but "good vibes" aren't as simple to that, as different messages have different implications. Again, even without all the modern politicising and the near sociopathic nature of the religious right, there are still some underlying messages in "that" type of Christianity that bother me a lot. I think people are trying too hard to be progressive. I don't believe the way to get on is to ignore things like this and pretend they're not an issue - with the rather militant attitudes of some of the "tolerant" people in this thread, the proof is in the pudding. You're managing to get on better with Christians, but distancing yourself from others as a result. It's delusional not to acknowledge this. The lack of subtlety of the lyrics is of course the key. I don't have a problem with people working in vaguely Christian elements into an album if it's something important to them. I don't have a problem with most of Bob Dylan but I wouldn't listen to his specifically Christian music, because he can write music that doesn't sound as if it has to come from a Christian. Of course, anyone can write music about anything they like - but when I'm judging it on the basis of how much I like it, as others are doing in this thread, then the above applies. It does also feel a missed opportunity when a prog "Super group" like this is a bit of a waste for those of us not comfortable with the themes. While there is a positive feeling to Neal's music, as other people have said, there is something that lacks substance here. Religion can be like a drug, and drugs often give people a very temporary and shallow happiness. I don't believe it's quite the same case here, but I still think there is to a degree an artificial high. It's possible to write "spiritual" music with some real depth. Ever listen to a Dead Can Dance record? Listen to that, and compare it to Transatlantic or some modern Christian Rock like Hillsong stuff. The idea that it's "spiritual" is absolutely laughable. It's like some hippie meditating to Britney Spears. It's absurd, but cultural imperative tells us otherwise and again the more conservative elements of religion favour music that's about pretty spiritually void, it's all about the "Message" or something. What's good about the Dead Can Dance kind of spirituality, is that even full out atheists can appreciate it because it's falling back largely on old culture, fantasy and themes that can anyone can appreciate. Christian themes can mostly only be appreciated by Christians. This is one big reason why Christian Rock bothers me, why "The Whirlwind" bothers me. Even if I say "Okay, this is mostly for Christians and people who are more comfortable with Christian themes", it's bad as a spiritual record. Listening to old King Crimson records is a far more spiritual experience for me, the last track on the self titled especially. The friend that introduced me to this album does play in some kind of a Christian music act, but they take more after stuff like Dead Can Dance than Lincoln Brewster. And I can probably relate to that a lot more since it's not just shouting I LOVE YOU JESUS CHRIST, since the music itself isn't total toss and actually manages what it sets out to do. Overall what I really dislike is how militant people can get when people are uncomfortable with a particular theme, especially with Christianity. People are made out to be a****les or hipsters, which I think is very wrong and I strongly protest to the attitude in this thread. If a message like this makes people uncomfortable and hurts the music for them, that's their bag, maybe the band should have been more subtle, maybe not. But don't tell people what to think and then make it out like they're against other people's freedom of expression. |
Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 11:14
Kansas is my favorite band and I had no idea that that's what Nobody's Home was supposed to be about. A testament to Kerry Livgren's lyrical subtlety.  ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 12:08
Actually, "Nobody's Home" is about aliens. I'm not kidding. Lyrically, it's rather similar to "Watcher of the Skies." Point of Know Return (where one can hear this song) was released before Kerry Livgren became a Christian (in 1979). You will find lots of religious ideas in Livgren's lyrics before 1979, but none of these are explicitly Christian. His Christian lyrics can be found on Audio-Visions and onward (even his seemingly Christian lyrics on Monolith are not exactly Christian, because Livgren was exploring Uranita at the time). His best lyrics for me are on what I consider their best album, Somewhere to Elsewhere, and many of those songs are decidedly Christ-centric (and at the same time, not, because some of them have double meanings). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: John 6
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 12:35
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As long as the album isn't drenched in overtly religious lyrics, I'm not really bothered. Having it shoved in my face is a definite reason not to listen. I have all of Transatlantic's work, and think they are excellent, but I don't think Morse has gone over the top with the religious references, and as other forumites have mentioned, religion features heavily throughout most music genres, and never gets a second thought. ------------- Prog Is A Man's Best Friend. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 12:40
And here I was thinking your username referred to Jesus' bold claims about himself that made everyone but his disciples leave him.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: John 6
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 12:56
And here I was thinking your username referred to Jesus' bold claims about himself that made everyone but his disciples leave him. [/QUOTE]Me, religious!!?!! Each to their own, but I choose not to partake. Seen religion cause alot of the world's problems, and to fight in the name of religion is so hypocritical, therefore I stay out of such matters. ------------- Prog Is A Man's Best Friend. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 13:28
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I think you need to use a larger font in color...
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: John 6
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 14:30
Just thinking the same myself!! ------------- Prog Is A Man's Best Friend. |
Posted By: Mayhem.
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 14:39
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I know how you are feeling, sometimes a track can be really awesome, except for the lyrics :) On the other hand, awesome lyrics can really pull up a lesser song. Cheers ------------- Check out my Beatles blog at: http://withtheblogs.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: Harry Hood
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 17:04
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I'm an atheist and it doesn't offend me at all. To me it's no different from someone writing lyrics about Narnia or Zeus or whatever else. Just another source of fiction for lyric writers to take inspiration from. fact is, theres lots of crazy sh*t that happens in the Bible, and its in the public domain, so why not take those fictional stories and write songs about them. Plus, you can always put your own unique twist on them, like Roine Stolt did with "The Judas Kiss". A tale of Jesus' last days where he's being chased in the snow by wolves. Or "Supper's Ready" by Genesis. i don't even know what's going on in that song. But the religious imagery only serves to complement it's strangeness. So yeah, just chill out and enjoy it. If the music is awesome enough it should transcend whatever petty disagreements you have with their lyrics. ------------- 
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Posted By: Medicine Melancholy
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 19:04
It's vastly different. First off the obvious thing is that people don't BELIEVE in the Lord of the Rings, etc. it's been used as a source of fantasy. The second aspect of that is that they're not even singing about the Bible, they're singing about Jesus and how awesome he is. There are plenty of great songs that use the Bible as a sort of mythological inspiration. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJhVM930YXY&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJhVM930YXY&feature=related And again you are being really harsh on people who are made uncomfortable by it, "Petty disagreements". It's one thing if you're fine with it, but trying to guilt other people into being fine with is another thing.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 19:15
I sing about Jesus and how awesome he is. In fact, it's pretty much all I sing about. In fact, that's pretty much all the Bible is about. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Medicine Melancholy
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 19:18
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Really? Even the Old Testament? I think it's kind of silly to only ever sing about one thing personally... it's a big part of the problem I have with Christian Rock.
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Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 19:32
Yeah, I should have figured that one out. I'm rusty on my Kansas lore. I agree about the lyrical content of Somewhere to Elsewhere. Distant Vision is a really stellar example of that imo.------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 21:44
| I'm an apatheist who listens to gospel music because the singing is often excellent. Religious lyrics don't put me off. I dislike Transatlantic because I've rarely seen a band more in love with itself, not because of Morse's beliefs. |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 22:03
I'm a huge atheist, but I'm not bothered. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 22:05
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Current 93 has a lot of religious (Gnostic) lyrics, and they're not even on PA. What do you think about that?
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 22:07
"Distant Vision" is the first one to come to mind. On the one hand about Christopher Columbus, and on the other about a new Christian. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 22:10
Oh wow, yes. The Old Testament is all about Christ! That's one main reason I'm a believer. I would agree with you about singing about only one thing...but when there's so much to say about that one thing...so much so that a thousand songs would never cover it...I'm cool writing those tunes. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 22:16
| I can't be the only person who listens to Arabic music sometimes. That is routinely about Allah and Islam. But is anyone going to find that offensive or annoying? |
Posted By: 40footwolf
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 22:26
This has always been my viewpoint. I'm agnostic, but "The Chronicles of Narnia" aren't my favorite books because of the religious overtones-they're my favorite books because of the beautiful prose and rich world. I don't like Transatlantic, but the Christian lyrics have nothing to do with it(The BAD lyrics, on the other hand...).
------------- Heaven's made a cesspool of us all. |
Posted By: Medicine Melancholy
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 22:52
| I honestly think people here are trying far too hard to look "tolerant"... |
Posted By: 40footwolf
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 23:10
------------- Heaven's made a cesspool of us all. |
Posted By: Harry Hood
Date Posted: September 07 2010 at 01:01
You'd be surprised the sort of things you'd find on the internet. I once discovered a community of people who believed the Digital world in Digimon was real. I'm sure if you looked hard enough you'd find people who believe Middle Earth was real. People believe all sorts of crazy things. Just because Neal Morse happens to believe in some bearded man in the sky who loves him, and happens to write lyrics about it, doesn't really change anything about his talent as a songwriter. -------------
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Posted By: Medicine Melancholy
Date Posted: September 07 2010 at 09:13
I guess Transatlantic doesn't bother people like you since you're too busy being a complete and utter a****le to notice how grating the vocals are. Of course it's their problem if they're the ones that can't stand that people would be put off bands for singing about something that makes them uncomfortable, and insult them based on it. People like you are the worst you can get in any debate, and a reason why a lot of forums outright ban editing quotes, it's childish.
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Posted By: Medicine Melancholy
Date Posted: September 07 2010 at 09:14
There's a difference between fringe loons and an enormous culture. The connotations are completely different. Some of us don't feel comfortable with the concept of organised religion and mindlessly dedicating yourself to one individual at all.
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: September 07 2010 at 09:25
Sorry, but people like you are worse, when you have to resort to crude personal abuse in order to make a point, no matter how valid you might think it is. Careful, or the admins will be banning you  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Basíleia
Date Posted: September 07 2010 at 10:32
What the hell is your problem, dude?
Sure you can say, you don't like Transatlantic lyrics for the reasons you've mentioned, but don't get pissed, if a lot of people - both gnostic and agnostic - don't share your feelings in that thread. You are the one who "pushes" people into "admitting they don't like the lyrics either, because you can't have it that the people who'd agree with you aren't really reacting... ------------- Liefde heerse op Aarde Liebe herrsche auf Erden Love reign on Earth Amor regat Tellurem Que l'amour règne sur la Terre |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: September 07 2010 at 12:05
I usually defend religion these days, mainly because it has become somewhat trendy to criticize it, and I tend to be contrary by nature. 
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Posted By: Mr. Maestro
Date Posted: September 07 2010 at 14:16
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I myself am a Christian and a prog fan, and I find immense satisfaction in hearing Christ-themed lyrics in the context of progressive rock. I think Neal Morse's lyrics could sound a little more sophisticated (more Livgren-esque), but I'll take what I can get.
This thread will probably go on for another fifteen pages, at which point everybody will forget that it started as a discussion about TA and Neal Morse. ------------- "I am the one who crossed through space...or stayed where I was...or didn't exist in the first place...." |
Posted By: Basíleia
Date Posted: September 07 2010 at 14:24
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^ Haha, well, I think this thread will die out for a while and then will be read by some guy and the whole discussion starts all over again...and I don't think that's a bad thing, I guess, since, by then, a whole lot of new PA members will be here to share their thoughts on the matter ------------- Liefde heerse op Aarde Liebe herrsche auf Erden Love reign on Earth Amor regat Tellurem Que l'amour règne sur la Terre |
Posted By: 40footwolf
Date Posted: September 07 2010 at 14:42
------------- Heaven's made a cesspool of us all. |
Posted By: Basíleia
Date Posted: September 07 2010 at 14:53
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Ok, you are aware of the fact that it's not funny anymore, footwolf? -_-' ------------- Liefde heerse op Aarde Liebe herrsche auf Erden Love reign on Earth Amor regat Tellurem Que l'amour règne sur la Terre |
Posted By: 40footwolf
Date Posted: September 07 2010 at 15:00
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Yeah, I'll stop. Poor kid's likely to blow a blood vessel if I keep it up ------------- Heaven's made a cesspool of us all. |
Posted By: natewait
Date Posted: September 07 2010 at 15:12
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I don't understand why this is such a controversy. Why can't those who appreciate or tolerate Christian lyrics listen to them and those who don't appreciate or can't tolerate Christian lyrics not listen to them? A songwriter should be allowed to write about what moves them and for Neal Morse that is his religious beliefs. If you are offended, move on and listen to something that isn't offensive to you. I honestly would rather have Neal write about something that means something to him, then for him to try to appeal to the masses and not have as much conviction in his music. It is his emotional investment in his music and lyrics that makes him so great as an artist in my opinion. ------------- Please check out my Progressive Music Blog: http://leviathanprog.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - The Leviathan . |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 07 2010 at 15:32
You have to allow people to be who they are. If you don't like the lyrics, there are plenty other bands out there that you can enjoy and appreciate that speak your lingo and doesn't interfere with your very own inner state.
Please be tolerant pf people's abilities and desires. Specially in the arts. Without many of those artists speaking to you, in many places and countries, you have no voice whatsoever!
I, personally, do not buy something because of the lyrics or because it is that band or not. May I suggest a deep evaluation of your tastes in music? And .. no ... religion and "arts" do not mix very well and has a history of massive collusion! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: September 07 2010 at 19:34
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I'm also an atheist, but the religious lyrics don't really bother me. If you rally against stuff like that, you're just as bad as the Christians who like to rant and rave against every last piece of entertainment while labeling everything as "immoral." Music transcends ideology, especially when music that's as amazing as Transatlantic.
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Posted By: Harry Hood
Date Posted: September 08 2010 at 01:15
This. It's especially telling that all the different band members have seemingly completely different religious affiliations. Neal's a christian, Mike's jewish. Not sure what Roine is, I think he's stated that he's "spiritual" but doesn't affiliate with any particular religion. And yet they can all come together and write some great music. And I'm pretty sure they're not the only prog band where this is the case (see also Kansas, who have the fundmentalist Livgren and skeptic atheist Swalsh writing songs together).
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Posted By: Progfan1958
Date Posted: September 08 2010 at 06:34
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Enjoy the music and take the words as artistic expression, regardless of what they actually say. Yes, I know they can be important to people, but whether we agree or disagree with what's being said, the right to freely say things is very important. I know I don't agree with people who preach death and destruction, or blind worship , but they still have a right to express such opinions. You would hope people educate themselves enough to know right and truth from whatever you want to call the other options. Transatlantic is a truly enjoyable collaboration, as are the member artists individual home bands. Provocative or interesting words may be part of any musical creation, just as Roine's choice to play an A flat instead of an A natural may be. The end result may be dissonant or consonant, but it's still music, and you may like either option. ------------- Progfan1958 "Peace to you all" "La paix est avec vous" "Pax vobiscum" "Al salaam a'alaykum" "Vrede zij met u allen" "Shalom aleichem" |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 08 2010 at 12:43
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I agree that Transatlantic are an extremely talented bunch (although much of what they produce is tantamount to an affectionate homage to classic early 70's prog IMO) We can't really afford to get too picky about prog lyrics. After all, it's the fact that Morse's words actually make conventional narrative sense that makes our approval/disapproval of them possible in the first place. Given some of the cryptic and arcane verbal poo produced by Anderson, Sinfield, Gabriel, Lake et al over the years, we could be forgiven for thinking Christian oriented Prog is the only type capable of secular and unpretentious lyrics. Oh the hideous irony....that gorgeous hot sexy chick who moves with the grace of a panther (and the mind and vocab of a sunday school toddler)  -------------
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: September 08 2010 at 17:29
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In line with many others before me: if the lyrics are religious, let them be.
I'm not religious myself but I don't mind too much religious lyrics as long as they are not over the top. If played cleverly they can actually be interesting.
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