Prog or not - a solution?
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55025
Printed Date: February 24 2025 at 13:50
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Topic: Prog or not - a solution?
Posted By: Delta Savant 13
Subject: Prog or not - a solution?
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 12:06
I just had this idea,  so I thought I would run it up the flagpole and see who salutes. In answer to the endless discussions of whether certain bands/artists are "prog" or not ( which I am, quite frankly, getting tired of!), I suggest that ALL bands are prog, but to varying degrees. For example, Yes would be 100% prog, and Madonna would be about 0.001% prog. The Who would be about 35% prog. So the arguments arise from the differing standards of the listeners, rather than the music. Thus someone who will not call anything with a prog level of less than 95% "prog" will not accept the Who, but someone else who gladly welcomes anyone with a prog level over 25% will certainly call them prog. But at the most fundamental level, EVERYTHING IS PROG. In light of this, when considering an artist for inclusion, we just poll the members on how prog they think it is (from 0 to 100 percent), and then compare the resulting number to a predetermined prog cutoff point of 40% or whatever.  Has anyone suggested something like this before?------------- ...and if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know. |
Replies:
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 12:12
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I would not give madonna 0.001% though. These days it seems prog is whatever you want it to be, I still like the term "Underground Rock"! ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 12:12
Or we could just come up with teams of people who know their stuff and
have them vote on each band that is considered for inclusion - reliable
people who are known by the site and are consistently active and
participative. Maybe have a few charts where we could track their
decisions as to votes on the band and if the band should be moved from
one subgenre to another. These people could also handle the artist
additions, add the discographies and write the bios for the bands. How about that? 
|
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 12:12
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This is what we do at Progfreak.com. All the users can submit genre and prog status information for the albums (level 0 to 10, which is the same as 0% to 100%). Albums with a level of 4 or 5 are labelled as "prog-related", anything below 4 is Non-Prog, anything with at least level 6 is labelled as "Prog". To make it a bit more interesting, we also offer two separate tags: progressive approach and prog by style, which you can use to show that something is progressive but not similar in style to the traditional prog bands (high progressive approach level, but low prog by style level) or that something is similar in style to the original prog bands, but not "truly" progressive (high prog by style level, but low progressive approach level). Sorry for plugging my website once more, but people keep asking about things that PF provides solutions for ...  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 12:15
I like it. I've seen it implemented on one site as well. |
King By-Tor wrote:Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 12:18
Well, it's a good solution!  |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 12:36
| ^ Thanks! I actually like both systems (collaborative approach vs. team oriented) ... most users will know me under my own user name (MikeEnRegalia), and that I helped to implement genre teams here at PA. I still like that approach, but especially from the perspective of normal users who have their own ideas about what is prog and what isn't, my website could be an interesting "experiment". Create an account and try to assign genre and progressiveness levels to your collection ... even by simply trying to do that you may gain some interesting insights into how difficult it can be. |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 12:39
Totally agree! |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 12:56
|
Good topic! And Mike, it would be remiss not to mention what you do at your site. I would've mentioned it if you hadn't. That said, percentages are hard to quantify, but it's a worthy and useful ambition. I know I'm moving from the scope/ aims of the topic somewhat, but I would say that all bands and musical artists/ composers are not so much Prog to an extent (which of course is short for Progressive Rock) since many are not at all rock, but that all are prog-related to some extent. So on a fundamental level not everything is Prog (progressive Rock) but all music is related to it to some extent (no matter how distant the relation). For instance, to use a composer rather than a band, Vivaldi's music has inspired and been used by proggers, so one could try to work out how related to Prog he is by his influence/ compositional similarities. A difficult task. Not that someone would suggest Vivaldi for inclusion under the current categories (though if he we had a non-rock influential bands/artists category, then he would be suitable). In regards to suggested bands for inclusion, I think the percentage idea is a neat way to think about it, but should be elaborated upon by determining specifics: what styles of progressive rock does it cross, which artists is it similar to... etc. I think it could be a useful accessory for justifying inclusion. People tend to think that way anyway in how we draw similarities even if percentages are not specified. I think such polls would be a good idea as an additional means to judge artists, and I do like the thought of thinking of ways that will get the members more involved in the process of evaluation, but it's no substitute for detailed analysis/ argument. And too often people vote without being familiar enough with the music, and it's important to have a very broad understanding and knowledge of progressive rock and music. Let's try a little experiment: what percentage would be awarded to this group? http://www.myspace.com/gaebolg - http://www.myspace.com/gaebolg EDITED for atrocious typos (I have type-O blood) |
Posted By: Delta Savant 13
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 13:11
 If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? I didn't want to bash the current system, much less discount all the work that the admins do. My point I guess was that arguments of whether a band was "prog" or not largely miss the point, because a lot of the elements that make up prog are common to all music (even a pop song requires a substantial amount of creativity; most people can't write one) so it is more a question of how prog a band is, rather than if it's prog. Especially when the argument is about Jimi Hendrix or The Who or bands like that. At least, that is my opinion.  ------------- ...and if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know. |
Posted By: Delta Savant 13
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 13:14
That sounds exactly like what I had in mind, except much more fleshed out  I will go check it out!------------- ...and if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 14:31
|
@Logan: I just listened to the first Gae Bolg track on the myspace page. My first impression would be: Progressive Approach: level 8/10, Prog by Style: level 4/10. It's obviously similar in style to Zeuhl to some extent, but I wouldn't even give Magma high rates on the prog by style scale, since I always thought of the whole Avant-Garde movement as something which happened in parallel to the classic prog movement. There are some similarities and quite some crossing-over, but stylistically Zeuhl is clearly a beast of its own - I'd give them level 6 on the prog by style scale at best. Also, let's not forget that most of that stuff (Gae Bolg) is not really based in Rock anymore, and that should be a key criterium for any prog *style*. So in a nutshell, I think that Gae Bolg is some kind of Progressive Avant-Garde Music, but at most related to the prog styles (by way of Zeuhl/Avant). @Delta Savant 13: I'd be glad if you checked it out and rated/tagged some albums. The whole system is quite stable, but the user interface could be improved ... I'm always getting around to it. |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 14:48
|
Earlier on a thread that disappeared quickly someone suggested that maybe the intelligencia of this site could put together a band by band list of what bands were really prog and what bands were not. I suppose it would look something like this...
king Crimson: 99%
Yes 98%
Radiohead 65%
Tool 50%
The monkees 06%
Madonna 00.01%
etc.
I am constantly surprised and amazed by our need to categorize and list and place bands in boxes. it's much like organizing our CD collection I suppose. I understand why someone would want to do it... But I understand even better why someone would not want to do it.
It was also suggested that only regular self appointed "contributors" to this site be put in control of this daunting task of deciding what bands were and were not prog, which of course is self defeating and unfair to those participants with minor vocabularies here on the forums. Some of these folks contribute buy purchasing Progressive rock CDs by the other folks who contribute by actually creating, making, and selling Progressive rock CDs.
I guess I just dont think that everything needs to be placed in neat little categories by the few,for the many! ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 15:35
That's impressive, Mike! Thanks. And I can see the advantages that thinking in terms of a Prog by style scale and Progressive approach. Not to go off-topic, but it's one I suggested for Avant Prog before and was keen on, but while avant garde (and Zeuhlish), not deemed Prog, but it generally falls under the NeoFolk "genre" (I've wondered if NeoFolk should be embraced under the Prog banner) --> http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Neofolk - http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Neofolk Incidentally, the "a Von Ludwig..." track has more obvious rock elements.I see how that two-tiered approach could really help with methodology here, especially when backed up as you have. I've said it before, but I really want to get into those features at your site, especially as I think they'd help me to become more focused / become more methodical. Generally-speaking: A problem I'd have with relying over-much on percentages here is that I think some people would vote too much based on pre-conceived biases based on limited knowledge. As an accessory, great, especially if it takes both of Mike's approaches into account, but we'd still need team's who understand their categories really well to really listen to the music, analyse, and make a decision. I'd like to use it for helping me to analyse/ look at music. If people used it as a good for their opinions, it could be wonderful. Right now few take an interest in the lesser-known suggestions to PA, and I would hope that it didn't just bolster more people giving input into and pushing for and against the bigger-name and more controversial acts but brought them into checking out new to them music. I feel there's already too much attention given to big names. If any understands me; not quite sure I understand myself -- lol..... EDIT: I could see a progOmeter (as it's been dubbed before in past discussions) being a more useful guide here for evaluation by members on the track and album level (it's important that a sufficient amount of the music is known, but then I feel that bands are better judged progwise on that level anyway) |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 15:37
|
Then again, if you guys find joy in this... Why should it bother me??? Carry on! I did not mean to spoil your party but felt compelled to chime in with my unsolicited opinion. ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 15:49
|
^ I don't see any problem with your post ... I guess we'll all carry on with what we're doing. BTW: The list you mentioned in your previous post is essentially what I'm doing at my website with the progressive approach tag. I just haven't implemented a page yet which displays a chart which is sorted by progressiveness instead of rating, but I'll probably expand the chart page in the next few weeks so that you can select different ranking criteria. @Logan: I'm glad that you like what I'm doing at PF. But I'd like to point out that I did not intend for tags and algorithms become the only criterium for judging bands. I consider tagging to be a helpful tool ... not more, not less. I'm also not always thinking of tags when I listen to music ... rather the reverse (I'm not thinking of tags and numbers at all while listening). Only after I've listened to something, I'm adding the album to the playlist at PF and try to submit some tags that might serve to describe the music. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: January 25 2009 at 20:14
I like the way this guy thinks |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: January 26 2009 at 01:17
i remember many heated debates on this subject for the last 3 years, everything is not prog - an album is either prog or it isn't prog - Yes is 100% prog, Madonna isn't prog , not even .001% 
when rating albums in reviews some wrongly give a prog related album 5 stars, "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive music ". surely it makes better sense to give Proto and Prog related a 4 star rating, "Excellent addition to any prog music collection " or 3 stars "Good, but non-essential "....simple, innit?
there are far too many sub-genres and pigeon-holes on this site as it is, any other system or "charts of progressiveness" (????
 ) , "tags and algorithms" (  ) would cause even more confusion  this always reminds me of that Robin Williams film "Dead Poets" where he is a teacher, analysing pieces of prose to a degree where the magic has gone from it and you just end up with "excremental" analysis - relax, have fun, enjoy the music and STOP THINKING!!
-------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
|
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: January 26 2009 at 08:31
I think your tag system in PF took control in my reviews, as you can notice..... and made me a PR |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: January 26 2009 at 09:43
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^ nice! @mystic fred: I know that for some people it's simply impossible to participate on my website because they resent numbers/percentages or algorithms completely. I used to complain about it, but I no longer do ... life is simply too short for that. Instead of trying to please everyone, I'll be happy to continue along my path, and be glad about anyone who follows. So, by all means, go back to listen to Genesis. Kidding aside: My guess is that you don't listen to too many modern bands, and that may very well be one of the reasons why you don't need tags. I've listened to about 150 albums from 2008 ... I'm not saying that everybody should, but I think that those who do follow modern prog (or indeed, any interesting music of the last 20+ years) might find tagging useful. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: January 26 2009 at 14:44
Well put Mr Fred sir. I can just see the arguments now - "I think Tool/Dream Theater/Radiohead (delete where inapplicable) are 67.38 % prog" "No they're not you  . Everyone knows they're only 63.39 recurring% prog because their first album isn't very prog bla bla bla". |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: January 27 2009 at 02:50
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Unless, that is, one of the more technically minded out there could develop some kind of a programme which could analyse music streams according to average song length (this to be modified according to their instrumental section ratio), their content of double necked guitars, Mellotrons and Hammond organs, divide this by the obscurity rating of the lyrics, add in some kind of "strange-musical-instrument" algorithm and finally include a filter to reduce the result the higher the Phil Collins influence (a curious clothing modifier could be manually added later in the case of a tie-break).
Thus: 1974 Genesis = 100% prog (lack of strange musical instruments being negated by the manual application of the curious clothing modifier) 1994 Genesis = 40% prog All we need now is a programmer with exactly the same music taste as me & we're sorted
------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: January 27 2009 at 06:52
| I'll start on it immediately, although I may need a more thorough spec for the curious clothing modifier. Is this just for animal-related headgear or does it cover plants and strange bubbly creatures as well? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 27 2009 at 07:00
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I don't know, I think mathematically speaking, some things are 0% prog and some things are worthy of negative values. See, even with the framework proposed, there is room for argument and disagreement.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: January 27 2009 at 08:23
Animal related headgear, plants, strange bubbly creatures... and Chris Squire:  -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Lev
Date Posted: February 03 2009 at 12:31
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First thing I noticed when discovering the site was how ridiculous some of the bands on here are. Nightwish....when the hell did they become prog? Too many bands getting a place on the site. Dragonforce'll be on next. ------------- 
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 03 2009 at 12:37
Wow ... talking about being pretentious and self-indulgent. I guess this happens when you go from a to b to c ... eventually you don't even know where you started as an artist. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |