Can Retro Prog be Progressive?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53332
Printed Date: February 05 2025 at 18:48
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Can Retro Prog be Progressive?
Posted By: Failcore
Subject: Can Retro Prog be Progressive?
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 14:26
| In general, we would think of these as mutually exclusionary sets. However, it seems to me that there are some albums which while borrowing heavily from a 70s style, end up with something completely new, different, and interesting. Thoughts? |
Replies:
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 14:38
|
In my opinion it can't. Or probably I have not heard those albums you mention. Which are they? |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 14:41
|
I would consider White Willow's Storm Season to be both retro and progressive. Its not something that I could easily quantify but I definitely get the fealing that its borowing a fair bit from the classic period whilst adding something very new.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
|
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 16:03
|
I kinda got that feeling from listening to Anglagard back in the days... so I guess it can be achieved
------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
|
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 16:19
|
Any music can be progressive in what ever frame work it is written in. Saying writing in a style popular in the 70's can't be new or progressive is like saying you can't write new music in a classical style it is all retro.
------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 16:26
damn spiffy. Even people's precious Kayo Dot could e called retro for their similarities (at times) to King Crimson |
Garion81 wrote:Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 16:29
|
Again, Progressive Rock has absolutely no relation with progress or evolution, a band can play in the style of Procol Harum, and still be part of the PROGRESSIVE ROCK movement.
The term Retro Prog is absurd IMO, or must a genre live 2 years and be forgotten? Why can't a genre live 40 or 100 years, why must we change at the Speed of MTV and Billboard?
Baroque Music existed from 1600 to 1750 more or less, and nobody called a composer playing in Baroque style in 1700 a Retro Musician, why must genres live only a couple of years?
This is not pop where you have to be new in order to exist, this is Prog where people buy The Lamb or CttE 40 years after their release.
Iván ------------- 
|
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 16:31
Damn Ivan- twice in one day I agree wholeheartedly with you. I'm looking for snow!  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 16:48
Here it won't, it has never snowed in Lima.
 But that's logic, the Romans (after Hippocrates) said "Ars Longa, Vita Brevis" (Art is for ever, life is short), music should be timeless, but the music industry in the last 50 or 60 years has changed that.
They want genres that sell millions fast and survive short time, so people will buy more and more of a new artist 5 or 6 times a year.
Prog is unprofitable for them, sells not too much in the first years, but keep selling a decent number of copies in 20 or 30 years....That's what they don't want, so their tactic is selling us the story of fashion and being cool, you are cool if you listen the music that is fashion today.
Pop on the other hand sells millions in the first months and not too much after that, so as soon as an artist stops selling millions, he is forced to change style or simply his contract is cancelled, because they need a new artist with a new sound that will sell millions.
They create a new sound, a new name for an old genre, or whatever they want, so a new artist will sell millions for a few months.
The funny thing is that if a new genre or sound doesn't has success, they create a "Retro Fashion" so they can sell their old crap again, kids start listening old albums and dressing as in the 80's or 90's, all is business.
Why should we live according to their parameters?
While peope keep buying and talking about Yes, Genesis, ELP, Kansas, etc, the genre is alive, something that doesn't happen in POP of course, hardly somebody talk about Michael Jaxckson today.
We are for the art, not for the business, so our rules are different
Iván -------------
|
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 17:02
|
^ Hammer head firmly on the nail again Ivan'
The only things that Michael Jackson is mentioned for has nothing to do with his music.
-------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 17:03
 I think I just saw the first flake (and I live in Orlando).I would add, though, that I think there are some non-prog bands that have a timeless quality. Here in the Southern United States (and elsewhere), Lynyrd Skynyrd has a legacy, for instance. I was talking to my wife about country music just yesterday after seeing Taylor Swift on TV. I enjoy older country music like Johnny Cash, The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, and John Anderson (not Jon Anderson  ), but I've noticed that since about 1992 or thereabouts, virtually all mainstream country is now "pop-country," and it follows the same trends you just described.Hell, even fashion works that way. Why oh why have the clothing trends from the 1980s suddenly reappeared in malls across America? Because companies can make money off a youth too ignorant to realize they look stupid wearing the stuff. Timeless music, regardless of the genre (but most especially in the various categories of progressive rock), will sound fresh nearly every time you listen to it. Seriously, how many times can one listen to The Backstreet Boys without wanting to smash the CD into smithereens? (I think the answer is once, but that's just me) ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 17:11
 ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 17:18
|
I vote to ban the genre name "Progressive Rock" entirely. It confuses people. It's all art-rock, and some of it is experimental. There are new classical composers out there, even though, by definition, classical means old. Geez, it must be headache over that on the classical music forums... Just another brain-bender to throw in: Rock music was a new form of music, when "progressive" came along and fused it with elements of the much older genres of jazz and classical...So, by the nit-picky, literal linguistic interpretations that are often used to deny bands with retro flavors their "prog" monicker, it could be argued that "progressive rock" should have been called "regressive rock" from the start... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 17:36
I remember on another forum saying "I like Late Romantic/Early Modern composers) such as......
A guy laughed (with smileys) he said LITERALLY: "How can a composition of the late 1800's or early 1900's be modern?"
Of course I had to explain him the meaning of the term modern in classical music.
But the truth is that most terms are inaccurate or at least inaccurate after a few years, but if we try to change them, we will faill, being that once spread a term can't be changed.
Iván
BTW: Epigniosis, I agree with you, trascendence is not exclusive of Prog, even quality POP albums like RUMORS or Rock ones as E Pluribus Funk have passed the time test. -------------
|
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 17:46
|
Part of the problem is that there's hipster sub-clique of prog-fans for whom it is very fashionable to disrespect bands who have things in common with 70's prog...So, all these questions of whether neo- or retro- is in fact prog or not aren't really people interested in being accurate historians/librarians of the genre, but tend more to be people looking for some recognition that their taste is somehow more legitimate than others...
------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 17:48
That's a very good point. We prog heads are very much elitists after all  And all you who say we aren't are in denial |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 17:52
I, alone, am completely immune to any kind of elitism. I am completely above that.  ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 18:04
Let's see how you react to.... prog is overrated, catchy choruses are where you need to be at. The Jonas brothers are amazing
|
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 18:09
 |
Posted By: splyu
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 18:11
While I generally agree with what you (Ivan) are saying, this is simply not true. Michael Jackson is an artist extraordinaire, and I know plenty of people who acknowledge that. His least successful album, 2001's Invincible, has sold 10 million copies according to Wikipedia, which is a lot by today's standards. Once he releases his new album, it will again sell in huge quantities, and I predict it will be more successful than Invincible. |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 18:16
I am so elitely non-elite that I can agree with everything you just said, but I must correct one thing...The Jonas Brothers are not merely amazing...they are (sigh)...dreamy... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 18:18
 Okay, jplanet wins |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 18:21
|
Rock on King By Tor!!!!!!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!! ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 20:08
My thoughts exactly. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 20:50
That's my point...Genesis doesn't require tio release a new album, as a fact the original lineup has not released an album since 1974, but still theyre albums are well sold (I proved that with statistics I'm too lazy to find again).
But Michael Jackson needs to release a new album to come back to popularity, his albums are designed to have a fast success and a fast decline, that's the structure.
BTW: I believe he's anything but a extraordinaire artist, his voice is less than mediocre (IMO) and his albums are mainly a product of marketing and visual effects on videos. I believe his time is over, this is another world and he has no chance.
But again, that's my opinion.
Iván
OK, lets go with the evidence:
Amazon represents 1.25 % of the world sales of albums, statitistically is more than a valid percentage to know how popular is an album today (All original recordings on CD, not remastered or bonus tracks):
None of this albums should have dreamed to beat Thriller on it's day, but now, they pass over it. -------------
|
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 22:04
|
I'm not that wedded to any genre term, but the term 'retro-prog' - or some equivalent - is useful to distinguish those prog bands who primarily recreate the ambience of the 1970s from those prog bands who, as their primary goal, look to extend musical boundaries. Please, I beg you, note what I said. I'm not wedded to any specific term. If 'retro-prog' offends you, don't use it. If it offends you, I won't use it. By 'retro' I mean 'looking back'. Perhaps we could call it 'looking-back prog'. Call it what you will, but having listened to a great deal of prog music it seems to me we do need a way of distinguishing Wobbler from Kayo Dot. Both are prog, but their intentions seem to me to be quite different. I will call you, Ivan, on your assessment of Michael Jackson. Your opinion of his talent is fair enough - I personally consider him one of the most gifted artists of his generation, but that's also only an opinion - but your assessment of the longevity of his sound and his albums is, I think, a little harsh. 'Thriller' has sold perhaps as many as 100 million copies. On an annual basis it still outsells virtually any prog album, including new releases. It's selling over 130,000 copies a year in the US alone. We take black musicians at the top of the charts for granted now, but 'Thriller' broke the ceiling for black artists. Jackson achieved higher royalty rates and changed the way the industry functioned, to the benefit of ALL recording artists. The album is still receiving accolades and awards 25 years after it was issued. As for the notion that Jackson's success is based on marketing and videos, well, I can do no more that remind you that radio and TV wouldn't play his material because he was black. 'Off The Wall', his equally good 1979 album, received comparatively little airplay and recognistion. The head of CBS records had to threaten MTV in order to get airplay for Jackson. Michael Jackson succeeded in the teeth of prejudice. Oh, and by the way, Ivan, the last Genesis album by the original lineup was in 1969, surely. |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 22:04
|
Wow, a million posts. I sort of straddle the fence here. one the hand, if the music is a carbon copy of what has been done before it, it's not all that progressive. Some bands like Spock's Beard fall into this trap, though I think Spock's mixing things up enough to still be a good listen. Some bands I would are retro-prog but not regressive would be Fromuz, Anekdoten, Beardfish, Magellan (circa Test of Wills), and Anglagard. Some that sort of walk the line would be like Spock's Beard, Neal Morse, Proto-Kaw, Transatlantic, Savatage, Dream Theater, and Ayreon. Some that are completely on the regressive side would be Marillion, Pendragon(sans latest album), The Flower Kings, Cryptic Vision, Alan Morse, and Tempest. I can still enjoy some of the regressive bands, but they would be much better if they actually made some "progress." |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 22:47
-------------
|
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 23:06
|
Source for the Jackson material, including his struggle for airplay: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Randy_Taraborrelli - Taraborrelli, J. Randy (2004). The Magic and the Madness. Terra Alta, WV: Headline. Go argue with Taraborelli. And Gabriel era Genesis sells nothing like Thriller, sorry. Using Amazon.com is false sampling, as the sample is biased. Many record shops don't stock early Genesis albums, so people buy them from Amazon, whereas Thriller is in virtually every store. I'd hardly call 130,000 units a year in the U.S. 'the floor'. And I don't buy the argument that prog isn't old enough to have a retro movement. We're seeing retro clothes from the 80s, and that's younger than prog. So it's clearly POSSIBLE. The question is whether you want to admit to it. Are artists deliberately invoking the sounds of the 70s prog giants or not? If they are, how should this music be referred to in contrast to bands 'making progress'? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 23:11
|
*Getting popcorn*
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 23:15
| Heh, it does get a bit like that. One of these days I'll get the last word in ... |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 14 2008 at 23:35
-------------
|
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 00:22
|
Am I reading you right? Are you saying that Jackson is racist because he's trying to be white? I think it's quite the opposite: maybe he was trying to be white because white people were more successful. And perhaps Taraborelli ought to have interviewed you - all that prejudice - some of which still exists - could have been magicked away. Oh yes, there's still prejudice out there. The US south-east supported Kerry more than they did Obama four years later, against the trend of the rest of the country. As for statistics, Ivan, I teach survey questionnaires and sampling strategies to post-graduate students. You simply can't use Amazon sales as a reliable guide to total sales. I explained why. It has NOTHING to do with sample size and EVERYTHING to do with the inherent bias in the sample. If you don't get that, perhaps you ought to check your statistics. And you're confused about what I said, as often seems to happen. I didn't say anything about 130,000 being a sample size. I said Thriller sells 130,000 a year. That's not a sample, that's a report from the publisher. I have no idea what you mean with your 26 billion argument. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 00:50
-------------
|
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 01:35
|
Bias, Ivan. If you use Amazon as a sample, you must be assured that shoppers at Amazon are a representative cross-section of the record-buying public. Given the widespread availability of Thriller through normal retail channels, people are less likely to purchase it on Amazon. Therefore extrapolating Amazon sales figures to represent the buying habits of the total population is statistically unacceptable. I certainly wouldn't pass any student who presented me a research project in which they argued that Amazon figures were a reliable indicator of total sales - especially when comparing two records (say Thriller and SEBTP) with what may be different levels of availability. So 1.25% of world sales is certainly a valid statistical percentage upon which to base conclusions - if and only if you can eliminate the bias inherent in the sample. In this case you can't. I can vouch for this, as I know what my own novel sales are, and how many sales I make through Amazon. I certainly don't sell anything like the percentage I ought to through Amazon. There are sound reasons of statistical bias for this. Does this help you understand statistical issues? Estimated sales figures for Thriller are relatively easy to unearth. In 2003 USA Today reported: 'Jackson's most successful album, 1982's Thriller, has had a respectable shelf life. It has sold 26 million copies and is second to the Eagles' Their Greatest Hits 1971-1975 in top-selling domestic albums. It sold 248,000 copies in 2001, 163,000 in 2002 and 172,000 so far this year' (http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-11-24-jackson-finances_x.htm). That 26 million copies is US domestic sales, and I suspect the annual figures are also US domestic figures. By contrast SEBTP has only sold 500,000 IN TOTAL in the USA. Wikipedia reports 'Still popular today, Thriller sells an estimated 130,000 copies in the US per year; it reached number two in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Pop_Catalog_Albums - US Catalog charts in February 2003 and number 39 in the UK in March 2007. My memory suggested this was based on chart reports, and it may well be, but there's no proof. I'd be more inclined to trust the USA Today figures, which are somewhat higher. You can choose to disregard these numbers if you wish, but if you do, I'd wonder about the motivation. By contrast, SEBTP has sold a total of around 5 million world-wide, if various web sites are to be believed. Given most of those sales would have happened in the 70s, to have sold 130,000 per annum since 1980 would mean it would have only sold 1,360,000 in the 1970s. I seriously doubt, therefore, that SEBTP is outselling Thriller! You'll note that I'm not from the USA either. But to say that Michael Jackson never suffered from racism is simply to ignore the evidence. Read the Wikipedia article and follow the references. And to say that Jackson is a racist who hates his own colour is certainly claiming more knowledge that you could possibly possess. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thriller_%28album%29#cite_note-The_Ultimate_Collection_Booklet-33 - |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 01:36
| Right. It's half-time and I'm serving oranges. Anyone? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 02:14
-------------
|
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 04:51
| Will Ivan have the last word? Stay tuned ... |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 04:54
| Actually, I think the spectators have packed up their gear and gone home. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 04:56
|
^That would be about right, yes |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 06:22
By the time you wrote that, even Ivan had packed his things and gone to sleep, only awake at...lets see....6 am...because I'm having insomnia after a couple of nightmers of Michael Jackson singing "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight"
Well, back to bed.
Ivñan -------------
|
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 06:50
Even Rush called be called Retro for the heavy blues rock stuff they had in their sound  We're equal now Mike! MWAHAHA. Betcha you didn't see that coming from a mile away |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 07:04
|
But anyway, let me put in a more serious 2 cents worth to this discussion. Retro prog can be prog rock. Prog and Progressive are two different terms really. Retro prog can be prog, but not 'progressive' in the true sense of the word. If music that was actually progressive was 'prog' we would have a very different set of bands in the PA database. Bands like Black Sabbath would be considered progressive instead of prog related just for an example. Prog and progressive rock can mean the same thing if we are talking about it in the same context. But when we are talking about music that is 'progressing' music, we are using another defintiion, the 'more usual' definition as such. Everyday I listen to bands with retro elements in them, and arguably, probably almost all, if not all music today is in someway 'retro' depending on how deeply we are willing to breakdown the music and analyse it and look for things that have been done already. It's more a case of, and a question of, to what extent is something 'retro' prog? |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 07:30
|
In fact, I'm not done yet Now for the bigger crunch coming up: Prepare to have your faces melted off and put in a pot to be cooked i.e post with more musically academic content warning Non-musicians, be warned Well, okay, it's not that bad. What is considered progressive? Let's discuss some musical devices that have been used for quite a while in music's history. Let's take counter and polyphony for instance. Two musical devices favored by many of the Baroque era composers. Now, let's take these into a more modern context. Say if a prog rock band, hypothetically speaking and thinking more along late 60s/early 70s for the first time, uses counterpoint and polyphony in their music. Is it progressive? (in the sense of actual progression, not in terms of it being 'prog rock') Or is it just 'retro? These devices have been used for hundreds of years before the people in x band have been born. One side of the argument says "What is new about this? Bach was all over it by the 1700s at least, if not even earlier, and chances are, people used these musical devices before him". If we choose to look at it from a more historical point of view, and take all music, not just rock, into account, then, nothing was really innovated, hence it's retro really. But now, let's leave music before 1965 out often equation, and better yet, let's pretend classical music in the vein of the Baroque style or whatever, is not being written at all. What we have now, is progression, in the true definition of the word. We have seen someone incorporate elements in rock music never done before. And then we have the first guys started to take it to another level and use Fifth Species counterpoint instead of merely just the first species, for the first time etc. Still, progression is happening And now, we can apply this to other later periods of prog music (although we no longer need to say it's necessarily about counterpoint or polyphony anymore, it can be a whole multitude of things, like other musical devices, genre mish-mashing etc). Let's prog metal for example. Retro if we view as metal and elements we consider prog already having been done. Progressive if we recognize metal was never played in such a complex way before. So, it's a matter of perspective/what angle we approach it, the historical context we chose to see it in, and even more I can't be bothered to think of at the top of my head as I really need sleep. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 07:46
|
Not that I wish to jump head first into this melee, I just want to point out (from the sidelines!) that I go to lots of record stores, in many different cities and states, and I think I've only ever seen Selling England by the Pound about three or four times, including the time I bought it. Most of the Genesis I see is the post-Hackett material.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 10:07
That´s just your way of seeing things. And from what I understand you don´t really listen to more experimental or non symphonic/neo bands, so it´s obvious you will think that way. ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?"
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 12:47
| Retro can be Prog (noun), but retro (regressive) is not progressive (adjective). I find "retro" a useful term to describe music that sounds like it is of, harkens back to, a past era/ time. I commonly say, "it has a retro aesthetic" or "it has retro elements" when evaluating music. |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 13:32
As simple as that , retro prog sounds progressive but it suffers from stagnation. And stagnation is not a main characteristic of prog rock.
But to some of us (the younger ones) it's great for a band that had it's prime more than 35 years ago to release an album that reminds us of it's days of old. (VDGG)
Besides there ain't a perfect "progressive" band King Crimson produced great music in the 80's 90's and 00's but it was formulaic. one formula in the 80's other different later.
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 13:40
Of course it is my way of seeing things, would be at least silly to pretend I express your opinions or the opinions of other person appart than me.
But seems by the reaction of the posters, that my opinion has some supporters.
Please refresh my memory:
Otherwise I don't see how you pretend to know what I listen or what I don't listen. Of course you haven't checked the bands I added, out of the 150 (More or less), the vast majority is non Symphonic. As a fact I have recently added or in process of addition, 5 bands from your country (Factor Burzaco - Avant/RIO; Andres Ruiz - Eclectic; Antihéroe - Jazz Fusion; Panza - Rio - Crossover; UBU - Prog Folk) which maybe you haven't even heard, none of them Symphonic. Probably you have checked my reviews....But wait, out of my last 20 reviews, only 5 are Symphonic and 4 are Avant - RIO. So please. if you don't know what I listen or not or what are my motivations, don't try to guess. Now back to the point, if you believe my opinion is wrong, What is your solution? Maybe sending a PM to the members of Glass Hammer, Magenta, Spock's Beard, Anekdoten, Par Lindh Project, Anglagard, Anton Roolaart, Iacintus, Shadow Circus (You can find John Fontana as JPlanet in this forum), etc, and tell them "Hey you better start exploring or we will remove you from Prog Archives because I decided you are not progressive". I never said that Prog must not evolve, I said a band may or may not evolve and still be part of the Progressive Rock genre. Iván -------------
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 13:47
| In defence of Matias, he did say "from what I understand...." |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 13:49
Please, when you will get it..Progressive Rock is the name of a musical genre, as Modern is the name of music from 1820 to 1899.
There will be many more contemporary composers, but Wagner or Chopin or Dvorak will always be MODERN MUSICIANS, even in the XXX Century, because MODERN IS JUST A NAME.
In the same way Progressive Rock is just a term, call it Art Rock or whatever but a band that was part of the Progressive Rock genre in 1971, will be a Progressive Rock band in 2099.
There's not a genre or sub-genre called Regressive or retro Prog, only progressive Rock, and things wion't change, because you can't change history
Is this so hard to understand?
Iván -------------
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 13:50
But from where he understands?
That's a wiold guess only, and a wild guess used to reach a conclusion.
Ivñan -------------
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 14:15
| I can't say why he got that specific impression -- I won't speak for him -- and I know you listen to more than symph, and symph related music. Yes, it's an assumption that leads to an invalid conclusion. I think it was poorly phrased. It might have been stated as "Assuming you prefer symph and symph-related bands when it comes to Prog, rather than experimental, avant garde bands, then it is not surprising that you think this way because...." |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 14:17
I take my hat for your diplomatic abbilities Mister Henry Kissinger Logan 
Iván -------------
|
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 14:34
I can guess. Your motivations are to be right and be heard. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 14:39
Wonderful, what a breath of fresh air. Thanks, Iván!
 I agree, but still I'm just thinking about Ed Macan, who says in his book about progressive rock two things that stick in my head:
- that progressive rock has used most of its possibilities between 1970 - 1975, and that there are only a few creative bands which give the genre some extra mileage, and nothing more
- that any music exists through a relation within society; I wonder if it's just the record companies who are guilty of making prog obscure (and DJ's/ music critics), or, on top of that, is modern man just easily bored?
Still, I agree, because I do see the need for a lot of people to stay with the genre, explore it further, listen to it over and over again. Like me. Seems like a more natural thing. Prog should be fresh until 2130, and a neo prog revival should come about 100 years later
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 14:39
No, my motivations are to debate in search for the closest approach to truth, through research not guessing.
Iván -------------
|
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 14:47
Really? There wasn't a genre or sub-genre called crossover prog until recently. We're changing history at this site all the time. If we want to have a genre called retro-prog, then we will. For the record, I do NOT want such a genre. I think the word 'retro' applies to an attitude, not a genre. But shouting the same argument time and again doesn't make it right, Ivan. There's an established genre called retro-rock, in which artists evoke the rock of the 1970s. I personally think - as do some others here - that some contemporary prog bands do this too. It's a way of referring to a broad group of artists, to distinguish them from other contemporary prog artists who are pushing musical boundaries. I'm still yet to hear an ARGUMENT against this idea, just some repeated assertions. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 15:16
-------------
|
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 15:17
Hey, hey- note the smiley!  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: OzzProg
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 17:44
|
Well, I didn't read every post, so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet; Your question answers itself. If it is in fact "Retro Prog", it is of course progressive. Many say Retro Prog just copies the old stuff, therefore being Regressive. However, even though they use the old formula for music, these bands bring lots of progressive elements to the table. A notable band, that is a prime example of this, is Beardfish. They sounds like 70's prog, the Retro aspect of Retro Prog, but Beardfish brings all sorts of new stuff, that is completely progressive to the rock genre (I can't point any single point of their music that makes them progressive, its just a completely unique and new style.) So in my opinion Beardfish = Retro Prog. (Now, DUH! there are tons of more bands that do this, Beardfish just leaped forward in my mind) However, there are a lot of bands that are just Retro 70's rockers, which create good music that sounds like 70's, but does not introduce anything new, therefore Not being progressive. A good example of a band like this (for me) is Spock's Beard, which sounds like poppy 70's prog. I still like them, but I don't think they are terribly progressive. OzzProg! -------------  |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 19:26
| ^ absolutely. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 19:42
As for your arguments: 1) I didn't refer to neo-prog, I referred to crossover prog. That sub-genre wasn't created for an emerging new style, but as a different category to encompass existing music. That's changing history. If we do that, we could also do retro-prog. I repeat, I don't think we should, but we could. 2) No contradiction at all. I said that others had made up a genre called retro-rock, and said that I think 'retro' applies to an attitude, not a genre. I don't see any contradiction, just a disagreement. Others think there should be a genre called retro-rock, while I think retro-rock is an attitude to making music. So: I think it's an attitude, others think it's a genre. Clear? One is what I think, the other is what some others think. 3. Is there a genre called retro rock? Amazon seems to think so: http://www.amazon.com/Best-Neo-Punk-Retro-Rock/lm/XEYKD0KF53U1. VH1.com seems to think so: http://shop.vh1.com/Retro-Rock_stcVVcatId424123VVviewcat.htm. Last FM seems to think so: http://www.last.fm/group/Retro+rock. As for defined parameters, we'd better not start insisting on agreed definitions as proof of existence, otherwise prog rock will be ruled out too! 4. I don't buy your argument that prog was created to be timeless for a moment. It was a fashion like any other, in my opinion. That it's now out of fashion ought to be clear to everyone. Being a hippie is out of fashion, but there are a few out there still wearing the beads and cheesecloth shirts. Same with prog. It's still out there and going strong, but it's no longer the trendsetter it was 35 years ago. Of course prog is not dead, and you make a logical error in asserting that something can only be 'retro' if it is dead. Not so. But it is out of fashion, and so any recreation must by definition be retro. I absolutely agree with your definition of retro, and would argue that the prog revival is retro by that definition. So thanks for taking the time to make some arguments. Can retro be progressive? Yes. Is it a negative term? I don't think so. Just my opinion. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 20:25
-------------
|
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 15 2008 at 23:15
*Ran out of popcorn...* *Searching for Goobers on the floor* ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 16 2008 at 00:10
| Hey, I just want to see if it's possible for someone else to have the last word. Consider it a social experiment. |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: November 16 2008 at 01:50
|
Humans are a while loop. while(others==wrong) { printf("I am right\n"); } I sincerely hope there are some engineers here to get this joke :P. |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: November 16 2008 at 02:21
if(music=="popular"){ return "claim it is unoriginal"; } else { return "call it progressive"; } :-P ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 16 2008 at 02:40
|
I'm not an engineer, but I used to do fortran programming. I'd add a defensive/aggressive 'if then else' subroutine to that one, Deathrabbit. Laughter's essential in the midst of such a serious debate. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 16 2008 at 04:56
*is sad cos everyone seems to have just ignored my posts completely *
|
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 16 2008 at 13:08
Want some popcorn? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 16 2008 at 18:51
No. You'll never beat a lawyer, even if the reason assists you Russselk. Ivan will never lose a debate on this website. ------------- 
|
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 16 2008 at 18:55
|
ahhhhh... oh yes he can. The infamous Fragile debate bro'. MIcky took him.. round about the 20th page when the site changed the release date to the correct one It just takes one as stubborn as him.. and has his patience. ahhh.. good times... that is what hooked me on the site.. Ivan had invited me over here like a couple of weeks earlier. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 16 2008 at 19:25
taking it one level deeper (especially for fans of Douglas R. Hofstadter's Godel, Escher & Bach): the test of intelligence is knowing when a recursive loop has entered an infinite regress. As Russell points out - you need an escape clause to break-out of the loop. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: November 17 2008 at 00:53
|
I deliberately left out the inductive step to showcase the perpetual nature of argumentativeness. I could do this: void argue() { argue(); } :P |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: November 17 2008 at 01:02
|
Just a little sly addition to Deathrabbit's function:: int argue() { argue(); return null; } ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: November 17 2008 at 03:26
Do you know, I couldn't have put this better myself. ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Q6
Date Posted: November 17 2008 at 10:19
|
Are genres not there just to help collation? They don't affect the song, the band or the listener. They just help people find the song, the band or listener. So genres are names we follow to find that which we like. Does it matter that we use the same name as long as it is descriptive? Cold / chilly / bitter out / freezing..., all I know is it means wear a jumper? Neo prog, retro prog, metal prog etc? These mean..., "hiphop/europop/house etc not found here", so I may just have a wander and see what I can find..., ------------- http://www.paulcusick.co.uk - www.paulcusick.co.uk |
Posted By: AlanD
Date Posted: November 17 2008 at 11:29
|
For me, the most interesting artists of all are those that attempt to confound genre classification (eg Beatles, Stackridge, XTC) - it's a path that I conciously follow with my own composition and recording, imagination can lead you towards personal progress and some extraordinary places. Discovery is the name of the game...forget sales. ------------- AlanD |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: November 18 2008 at 15:35
|
I just read all the previous posts, and have come to a definite conclusion: I have way too much free time That, and I sure do love me some of that retro-prog goodness  |
Posted By: Scratchy
Date Posted: November 20 2008 at 06:33
|
I think progressive rock should have two elements to have full credibility to the form:- A true progressive rock musician would naturely have both these elements within his mindset. It has been mentioned above that prog doesn't need pop music's need to keep on re-inventing To reply to the original question.Retro prog does progress due to its natural flow,but I don't
think most prog listeners appreciate it that much because it does not push the boundaries of music. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 20 2008 at 08:56
What specific piece of music does 'Retropolis' copy almost note for note? I think you have completely overstated your case. This is why so-called 'retro' prog has a bad name among some people. Not even STARCASTLE recreate YES albums almost note for note. They wrote original compositions but tried to sound like YES. Most 'retro' prog bands simply use the sounds of the classic 70s prog bands as one of their inspirations. There's no copying at all. Arguments like yours are why the term 'retro' has people annoyed. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 20 2008 at 08:59
|
Edit: duplicate post. |