Church group to protest funeral
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Topic: Church group to protest funeral
Posted By: debrewguy
Subject: Church group to protest funeral
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 11:53
By ROB NAY
The Winnipeg Sun A fundamentalist church group from the U.S. has announced it plans
to picket the funeral of Tim McLean Jr. in Winnipeg, declaring, "God is
punishing Canada."
"People are absolutely outraged about it," said Doug Mitchell, a friend of McLean's for about seven years.
Led by pastor Fred Phelps, the Westboro Baptist Church from
Kansas issued a release saying they would picket McLean's funeral this
weekend.
Phelps' daughter, Shirley Phelps-Roper, said about seven church members
are expected to come to Winnipeg. "What we're doing is trying to
connect dots," Phelps-Roper told the Winnipeg Sun last night. "We're
trying to get you to see that your rebellion against the standards of
God, your disobedience to the commandments -- your idols, your false
gods, your filthy ways have brought wrath upon your head."
The group has held pickets and protested on issues throughout
Canada and the U.S., commonly with only a small handful of people in
attendance.
In 1999, the group burned a Canadian flag and protested in
Ottawa following the Supreme Court ruling which ordered Ontario to
include same-sex couples in the definition of spouse.
The church has also developed a reputation for not always
following through on protests. "If it's not a hoax, then they're
morally deranged," said Arthur Schafer, director of the University of
Manitoba's Centre for Professional and Applied Ethics.
Mitchell said he and other friends are disturbed by the
church's plans. He said he hopes members of the church don't attend the
funeral for his friend who was murdered and decapitated aboard a
Greyhound bus last week.
"When it comes to the (Westboro) Baptist Church, they don't
even deserve to be on the same page as Tim McLean. He was too great a
guy," said Mitchell.
WHAT WOULD JESUS DO ! And why don't people like Idiot Phelps suffer these sort of crimes instead of a seemingly good person like Mr Mclean ?
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Replies:
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 12:12
The Westboro "Church" is a hate cult, pretty much the lowest form of human being I can conceive of. They regularly protest military funerals in this country, like it's bad enough having lost a loved one in the war and you have to deal with these assholes.
EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION: I'm not the most religious person, but PLEASE do not in any way connect these evil, evil people with Christianity - they are a deranged cult led by a man who by any definition is insane, I would be happy if they followed the example of the Nike-shoe wearing cult and all killed themselves.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 12:21
This acts were declared illegal in several USA states, Canada should make the same thing, this bigots deserve no respect.
Something has to be done to stop this fanatics, according to WBC God hates everybody except them, it's time to stop abuse of Freedom of Speech by this animals (with the pardon of animals).
Iván
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 12:42
What I want to know is how scum like Phelps can stomach worshiping a God that cohorts with criminals.
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 12:52
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
This acts were declared illegal in several USA states, Canada should make the same thing, this bigots deserve no respect.
Something has to be done to stop this fanatics, according to WBC God hates everybody except them, it's time to stop abuse of Freedom of Speech by this animals (with the pardon of animals).
Iván |
I completely disagree. Not only does it make them martyrs to their supporters, it suggests that the government's job is to protect the feelings of its citizens. While that arguably works on places like progarchives, in real life, where there are far greater consequences, it gives the government too much power to censor what it doesn't like, however well-meaning its intentions.
A far better response would be to simply stop paying them any attentions. It works with kids pulling attention stunts, and it will work with these overgrown babies as well.
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 12:55
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
This acts were declared illegal in several USA states
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In addition, these acts are prohibited by the federal government at Arlington National Cemetery and other national cemeteries.
H.R. 5037, the "Respect for America's Fallen Heroes Act," which
prohibits certain demonstrations at cemeteries under the control of the
National Cemetery Administration and at Arlington National Cemetery, and
provides for punishment of such demonstrations as misdemeanors.
This was signed into law 2 years ago.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 13:25
Pnoom! wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
This acts were declared illegal in several USA states, Canada should make the same thing, this bigots deserve no respect.
Something has to be done to stop this fanatics, according to WBC God hates everybody except them, it's time to stop abuse of Freedom of Speech by this animals (with the pardon of animals).
Iván |
I completely disagree. Not only does it make them martyrs to their supporters, it suggests that the government's job is to protect the feelings of its citizens. While that arguably works on places like progarchives, in real life, where there are far greater consequences, it gives the government too much power to censor what it doesn't like, however well-meaning its intentions.
A far better response would be to simply stop paying them any attentions. It works with kids pulling attention stunts, and it will work with these overgrown babies as well.
|
In this case I agree with Mr. Pnoom!. If there's one really good about the US is the total freedom of speech (or apparent at least).
Fanatism is on its way out. And so, thank God , is religion. It will take years, decades, centuries. I'll not be here. But one day religion will be but a bad memory for the human race. For religion carries the seed of fanatism. Fanatism carries the seed of hate. Hate, on the other hand, has never had such a good ally in history as religion.
Surely, there are great people who are religious. I respect them. But there's still a label there. One day there will be NO labels. And at least ONE reason for humankind's division will dissappear.
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 13:28
John Lennon..................dead
MLK..................................dead
Fred Phelps....................alive
when will somebody kill this motherf**ker?
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 13:30
Yeah, we've all heard about WBC, and we're all already outraged, blah blah blah
stonebeard wrote:
John Lennon..................deadMLK..................................deadFred Phelps....................alivewhen will somebody kill this motherf**ker?
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You're not helping. Celebrating anyone's death makes you an asshole, even if the person who died was an asshole.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 13:38
I was glad when Jesse Helms slumped off this mortal coil, and I'll be pleased when Phelps does too. These people don't deserve reverence in life, nor in death.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 13:45
Henry Plainview wrote:
Yeah, we've all heard about WBC, and we're all already outraged, blah blah blah
stonebeard wrote:
John Lennon..................deadMLK..................................deadFred Phelps....................alivewhen will somebody kill this motherf**ker?
| You're not helping. Celebrating anyone's death makes you an asshole, even if the person who died was an asshole. |
Yes... let's mourn Mr Phelp's death (when it arrives)... it will makes us better human beings...
...in the meantime, I hope that sorry piece of utter garbage can mourn ONE human being's death... just ONE....
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 13:46
The T wrote:
Pnoom! wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
This acts were declared illegal in several USA states, Canada should make the same thing, this bigots deserve no respect.
Something has to be done to stop this fanatics, according to WBC God hates everybody except them, it's time to stop abuse of Freedom of Speech by this animals (with the pardon of animals).
Iván |
I completely disagree. Not only does it make them martyrs to their supporters, it suggests that the government's job is to protect the feelings of its citizens. While that arguably works on places like progarchives, in real life, where there are far greater consequences, it gives the government too much power to censor what it doesn't like, however well-meaning its intentions.
A far better response would be to simply stop paying them any attentions. It works with kids pulling attention stunts, and it will work with these overgrown babies as well.
|
In this case I agree with Mr. Pnoom!. If there's one really good about the US is the total freedom of speech (or apparent at least).
Fanatism is on its way out. And so, thank God , is religion. It will take years, decades, centuries. I'll not be here. But one day religion will be but a bad memory for the human race. For religion carries the seed of fanatism. Fanatism carries the seed of hate. Hate, on the other hand, has never had such a good ally in history as religion.
Surely, there are great people who are religious. I respect them. But there's still a label there. One day there will be NO labels. And at least ONE reason for humankind's division will dissappear. |
Now, the freedom of speech part...can agree, in good spirit.
But about the religion...nay. Religion doesn't means fanatism. Misunderstood religion means fanatism. And fanatism, carring the seed of hate, is no longer a religion on its right path.
That being said, I'm surprised I'm responding to this, but I guess I'm mostly an areligious person who respect religion.
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 13:57
Henry Plainview wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
John Lennon..................deadMLK..................................deadFred Phelps....................alivewhen will somebody kill this motherf**ker?
|
You're not helping. Celebrating anyone's death makes you an asshole, even if the person who died was an asshole. |
While I agree in the case of Fred Phelps, who is little more than a nuisance, does your statement, which implies a complete absence of exceptions, include, say, Hitler? Or, to use a more relevant, still living, example, Osama bin Laden?
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 14:00
The T wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
Yeah, we've all heard about WBC, and we're all already outraged, blah blah blah
stonebeard wrote:
John Lennon..................deadMLK..................................deadFred Phelps....................alivewhen will somebody kill this motherf**ker?
| You're not helping. Celebrating anyone's death makes you an asshole, even if the person who died was an asshole. |
Yes... let's mourn Mr Phelp's death (when it arrives)... it will makes us better human beings...
...in the meantime, I hope that sorry piece of utter garbage can mourn ONE human being's death... just ONE.... |
I didn't say you have to mourn him. Just don't be an asshole.
I am reasonably sure that Mr. Phelps has felt sad about the death of another human being. Do you honestly think he is such a monster that he doesn't even feel for people closely to him and/or his "cause"?
The T wrote:
Fanatism is on its way out. And so, thank God, is religion. It will take years, decades, centuries. I'll not be here. But one day religion will be but a bad memory for the human race. For religion carries the seed of fanatism. Fanatism carries the seed of hate. Hate, on the other hand, has never had such a good ally in history as religion.
Surely, there are great people who are religious. I respect them. But there's still a label there. One day there will be NO labels. And at least ONE reason for humankind's division will dissappear. |
Haha, no, I'm sorry Mr. Secular Humanist, but religion is never going to die and your utopia will never be realized. For one, because it's a utopia and is therefore impossible. One world one love is hippie nonsense, even though it would be very nice if it were true. There is much debate whether or not religion is making a "comeback", but it's obvious that your mind-viruses are hear to stay. Science will never be able to explain everything.
And the common "religion is the source of many/all of our problems" is greatly flawed. We are the source of our problems.
stonebeard wrote:
I was glad when Jesse Helms slumped off this mortal coil, and I'll be pleased when Phelps does too. These people don't deserve reverence in life, nor in death. |
Like this. You are an asshole. He may have been a bully and a bigot, but he was a senator, not a brutal dictator. Now this is the internet, so I don't really care, just letting you know.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 14:09
lol aggressive moralism itt and elsewhere
these people just abuse free speech as a shield in that if anyone tries to stop their protest they can attempt to sue for suppression or somesuch.
edit: I mean that this is their primary intent - to make money from suing people who stand in their way.
------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 14:22
laplace wrote:
lol aggressive moralism itt and elsewhere
these people just abuse free speech as a shield in that if anyone tries to stop their protest they can attempt to sue for suppression or somesuch.
edit: I mean that this is their primary intent - to make money from suing people who stand in their way. |
And by making us angry, they are succeeding. They're really good trolls.
Pnoom! wrote:
While I agree in the case of Fred Phelps, who is little more than a nuisance, does your statement, which implies a complete absence of exceptions, include, say, Hitler? Or, to use a more relevant, still living, example, Osama bin Laden?
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GODWIN'S LAW WOOHOO! Yes, I would include them. Celebrate that they have been brought to justice, and celebrate that they can't hurt anyone else, but celebrating their death crosses the line, no matter how much of a monster they were. Now, emotionally it's hard to avoid being happy when Stalin, Hilter, Pol Pot, etc. die, and I understand that. But I still find it hard to justify, and it's impossible to justify once you cross out of mass murderer territory.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 14:25
Henry Plainview wrote:
The T wrote:
Fanatism is on its way out. And so, thank God, is religion. It will take years, decades, centuries. I'll not be here. But one day religion will be but a bad memory for the human race. For religion carries the seed of fanatism. Fanatism carries the seed of hate. Hate, on the other hand, has never had such a good ally in history as religion.
Surely, there are great people who are religious. I respect them. But there's still a label there. One day there will be NO labels. And at least ONE reason for humankind's division will dissappear. |
Haha, no, I'm sorry Mr. Secular Humanist, but religion is never going to die and your utopia will never be realized. For one, because it's a utopia and is therefore impossible. One world one love is hippie nonsense, even though it would be very nice if it were true. There is much debate whether or not religion is making a "comeback", but it's obvious that your mind-viruses are hear to stay. Science will never be able to explain everything. |
WARNING: STRAW MAN ALERT!
A world without religion is no more a utopia than a world with. Read his post again before you tell him he's speaking nonsense.
And the science vs. religion is just completely irrelevant (not to mention wrong). By definition science can explain everything (if God exists, he/she/it is a part of science). What you meant to say, I'm sure, is that scientists can't explain everything, since obviously they can't. However, they can explain quite a lot, and the more they can explain, the smaller a "leap of faith" (to use the term so often bandied about by creationists regarding the more specific topic of evolution) it is to trust that conventional scientific theories are correct and that religion is not (or, presumably, that Religion is if science someday starts supporting that).
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 14:31
Henry Plainview wrote:
Pnoom! wrote:
While I agree in the case of Fred Phelps, who is little more than a nuisance, does your statement, which implies a complete absence of exceptions, include, say, Hitler? Or, to use a more relevant, still living, example, Osama bin Laden?
|
GODWIN'S LAW WOOHOO! Yes, I would include them. Celebrate that they have been brought to justice, and celebrate that they can't hurt anyone else, but celebrating their death crosses the line, no matter how much of a monster they were. Now, emotionally it's hard to avoid being happy when Stalin, Hilter, Pol Pot, etc. die, and I understand that. But I still find it hard to justify, and it's impossible to justify once you cross out of mass murderer territory. |
First off, stop being overly aggressive, it's a surefire way to get this thread closed and end what could be useful discussion (and has been so far).
Second, I think you misused Godwin's Law, since this wasn't really a Hitler analogy at all. It was a valid example designed to probe the extent to which you applied your statement.
Third, dealing with what you actually said now, I actually agree.
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 14:36
Pnoom! wrote:
WARNING: STRAW MAN ALERT!
A world without religion is no more a utopia than a world with. Read his post again before you tell him he's speaking nonsense.
And the science vs. religion is just completely irrelevant (not to mention wrong). By definition science can explain everything (if God exists, he/she/it is a part of science). What you meant to say, I'm sure, is that scientists can't explain everything, since obviously they can't. However, they can explain quite a lot, and the more they can explain, the smaller a "leap of faith" (to use the term so often bandied about by creationists regarding the more specific topic of evolution) it is to trust that conventional scientific theories are correct and that religion is not (or, presumably, that Religion is if science someday starts supporting that).
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Pssh, what's an internet argument without strawmen? ;-)
Anyway I agree with you.
Pnoom! wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
Pnoom! wrote:
While I agree in the case of Fred Phelps, who is little more than a nuisance, does your statement, which implies a complete absence of exceptions, include, say, Hitler? Or, to use a more relevant, still living, example, Osama bin Laden?
|
GODWIN'S LAW WOOHOO! Yes, I would include them. Celebrate that they have been brought to justice, and celebrate that they can't hurt anyone else, but celebrating their death crosses the line, no matter how much of a monster they were. Now, emotionally it's hard to avoid being happy when Stalin, Hilter, Pol Pot, etc. die, and I understand that. But I still find it hard to justify, and it's impossible to justify once you cross out of mass murderer territory. |
First off, stop being overly aggressive, it's a surefire way to get this thread closed and end what could be useful discussion (and has been so far).
Second, I think you misused Godwin's Law, since this wasn't really a Hitler analogy at all. It was a valid example designed to probe the extent to which you applied your statement.
Third, dealing with what you actually said now, I actually agree.
|
Godwin's law applies to any mention of Hilter, I think. :P But otherwise I agree with you again. <3 It's probably because we both like Zorn--great minds think alike. <3 ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 14:39
Henry Plainview wrote:
Haha, no, I'm sorry Mr. Secular Humanist, but religion is never going to die and your utopia will never be realized. For one, because it's a utopia and is therefore impossible. One world one love is hippie nonsense, even though it would be very nice if it were true. There is much debate whether or not religion is making a "comeback", but it's obvious that your mind-viruses are hear to stay. Science will never be able to explain everything.
And the common "religion is the source of many/all of our problems" is greatly flawed. We are the source of our problems.
|
Oh no, Mr Conservative Non-Humanist (we're throwing labels around, aren't we?), I'm not talking about a world of hippie love (I'm not a hippie by the way, Mr. Conservative -again, we're throwing labels around, aren't we?-). I know it's impossible. Just to erradicate ONE problem, helps, though. We still will have money and the human need for power (which also lies behind religion) to cause enough chaos and destruction...
It's not an utopia by the way. It's perfectly realizable. Religion itself is a BELIEF based on... well, evidence it is NOT. It is a FAITH. Religion in itself is quite improbable, yet it exists. Eradicating it will take centuries, again (be happy, Mr. Religious -again, we're throwing labels around, aren't we-, you won't be around to see it. )
Science, by defintion, CAN explain everything. All that has to happen is for SCIENTIST to discover evidence. Oh, I forgot, the world is flat, and anybody who says it's round is wrong because science cannot explain everything...
The same as with the world being round and millions of other scientific explanations, one day we will be able to explain god. Or maybe not. But fear not. You and I won't be here. The mind-viruses (that's an accurate descrption... ) are here to stay... for a while.
Of course, you're right saying that religion is not the cause of all problems, but WE are. True. But we invented religion. Therefore, your argument proves the point.
EDIT: By the way, if those "labels" don't apply to you, which may well be, I'd suggest you also think before throwing labels at the air, Mr Zorn-lover (this label you have approved yourself I think)
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:01
:D
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:03
I sort of don't get why you're offended by "secular humanist", T....which of those words wouldn't apply to your stated philosophies?
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:11
Henry Plainview wrote:
Pnoom! wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
Pnoom! wrote:
While I agree in the case of Fred Phelps, who is little more than a nuisance, does your statement, which implies a complete absence of exceptions, include, say, Hitler? Or, to use a more relevant, still living, example, Osama bin Laden?
|
GODWIN'S LAW WOOHOO! Yes, I would include them. Celebrate that they have been brought to justice, and celebrate that they can't hurt anyone else, but celebrating their death crosses the line, no matter how much of a monster they were. Now, emotionally it's hard to avoid being happy when Stalin, Hilter, Pol Pot, etc. die, and I understand that. But I still find it hard to justify, and it's impossible to justify once you cross out of mass murderer territory. |
First off, stop being overly aggressive, it's a surefire way to get this thread closed and end what could be useful discussion (and has been so far).
Second, I think you misused Godwin's Law, since this wasn't really a Hitler analogy at all. It was a valid example designed to probe the extent to which you applied your statement.
Third, dealing with what you actually said now, I actually agree.
|
Godwin's law applies to any mention of Hilter, I think. :P But otherwise I agree with you again. <3 It's probably because we both like Zorn--great minds think alike. <3 |
Probably about the Zorn.
Anyway, re Godwin's law, here's what wikipedia has to say:
Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law#cite_note-GL_FAQ-0 - [1] is an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adage - adage formulated by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Godwin - Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law#cite_note-canonical_version-1 - [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law#cite_note-WiredMCM-2 - [3]
"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a caution
against the use of inflammatory rhetoric or exaggerated comparisons,
and is often conflated with fallacious arguments of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum - reductio ad Hitlerum form. |
So, while Godwin's Law itself is applicable, the implications of bringing it up don't exactly fit my example.
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:13
Henry Plainview wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
I was glad when Jesse Helms slumped off this mortal coil, and I'll be pleased when Phelps does too. These people don't deserve reverence in life, nor in death. |
Like this. You are an asshole. He may have been a bully and a bigot, but he was a senator, not a brutal dictator. Now this is the internet, so I don't really care, just letting you know. |
Well, you're a douchebag. It's fun to throw around names isn't it?
I find this honestly f**ked up. A guy goes around saying "Death to fags" and other truly hateful things, and what, do you want me to go put flowers on his grave when he dies?
Since when must we honor someone's death regardless of what their deeds in life dictate their legacy should be. I'm not very religious, so I don't see death as a very sacred thing. A guy dies. Big f**king deal. If they did truly honorable thing in life, let's commemorate his life. If he did despicable things in life, I may not drive down to wherever he's buried to piss on his grave, but I likely won't stay quiet about it.
I support freedom of speech within reason, and the kind of sh*t this guy does is beyond reason IMO, but since it's still going on, it's despicable. I'm content to let him do this stuff if courts say it's constitutionally protected (though if I attended a funeral where it was immediately effecting me, I dunno if I could hold myself back) but that is not to say I would take a moment to smile and think the karma of the world is somewhat more aligned if I go on digg one morning and see that someone put a bullet in his head.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:26
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:33
stonebeard wrote:
Well, you're a douchebag. It's fun to throw around names isn't it?
I find this honestly f**ked up. A guy goes around saying "Death to fags" and other truly hateful things, and what, do you want me to go put flowers on his grave when he dies?
Since when must we honor someone's death regardless of what their deeds in life dictate their legacy should be. |
In the interest of fairness, you're using a straw man argument, too.
I'm not very religious, so I don't see death as a very sacred thing. A guy dies. Big f**king deal. If they did truly honorable thing in life, let's commemorate his life. If he did despicable things in life, I may not drive down to wherever he's buried to piss on his grave, but I likely won't stay quiet about it. |
I agree with this, though we differ on what not "stay[ing] quiet about it" means.
I support freedom of speech within reason |
Who defines reason? If history shows anything, the government is terrible at determing what constitutes reason.
and the kind of sh*t this guy does is beyond reason IMO, but since it's still going on, it's despicable. |
I personally agree that it's despicable and a horrendous abuse of free speech, but I just don't see any way of closing the loophole without compromising all free speech.
I'm content to let him do this stuff if courts say it's constitutionally protected (though if I attended a funeral where it was immediately effecting me, I dunno if I could hold myself back) but that is not to say I would take a moment to smile and think the karma of the world is somewhat more aligned if I go on digg one morning and see that someone put a bullet in his head.
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Personally, you should hold yourself back if only because your attacking him lends credence to his cause and makes him a victim. Earns him sympathy.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:33
politics and PA's..... just like reality and prog purists.. .they don't mix.....
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:37
NaturalScience wrote:
I sort of don't get why you're offended by "secular humanist", T....which of those words wouldn't apply to your stated philosophies? |
I'm not really offended... As I have tried to show in my reply, I'm just a little bothered. You know, I may actually BE a "Secular humanist"... but I'm not THAT. It doesn't define me, as labels don't define anybody... So throwing labels around is, even if they actually fit, a little rude. You're basically defining one person in one/two words. And, as maybe the labels I threw around prove, they may not even apply! So it's better to be careful... lest a real offense be taken...
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:41
Pnoom! wrote:
So, while Godwin's Law itself is applicable, the implications of bringing it up don't exactly fit my example. |
You are correct in this instance, and you are both a scholar and a gentleman.
micky wrote:
politics and PA's..... just like reality and prog purists.. .they don't mix..... |
micky, have I told you recently how much I love you?
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:42
Obviously Phelps is a douche, but the best option is to just ignore him. Without media attention they are nothing.
It is not the place of the government to determine what can or cannot be said in a non-violent demonstration.
Saying that people shouldn't be allowed to say they hate people is the same as making the argument that musicians shouldn't be allowed to be overly sexual in their music or say naughty words. Either way it's censorship.
The bottom line is, as long as assholes get attention, they will continue to be assholes. Passing laws against them is really a victory for their cause.
------------- http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic
ALTAIC
"Oceans Down You'll Lie"
coming soon
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:43
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:44
Shh!! Quiet down you two... Mr Phelps might be listening....
-------------
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:45
GoldenSpiral wrote:
Obviously Phelps is a douche, but the best option is to just ignore him. Without media attention they are nothing. |
Exactly, this is not a difficult concept to understand.
stonebeard wrote:
do you want me to go put flowers on his grave when he dies? |
No, I never said anything like that.
if I go on digg one morning |
Digg is not a good website.
NaturalScience wrote:
IBTL! |
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
|
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:48
GoldenSpiral wrote:
Obviously Phelps is a douche, but the best option is to just ignore him. Without media attention they are nothing.
It is not the place of the government to determine what can or cannot be said in a non-violent demonstration.
Saying that people shouldn't be allowed to say they hate people is the same as making the argument that musicians shouldn't be allowed to be overly sexual in their music or say naughty words. Either way it's censorship.
The bottom line is, as long as assholes get attention, they will continue to be assholes. Passing laws against them is really a victory for their cause. |
Absolutely perfect post.
|
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:50
ITT: Henry Plainview has short term memory problems and posts things twice.
|
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:50
Stop it! We're already in the sh*t and we've gotta go on! Argue more, pansies!
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:51
stonebeard wrote:
Stop it! We're already in the sh*t and we've gotta go on! Argue more, pansies!
|
UR A JURK UR RONG ABUT EERTHVIGN EEVR WHI DONT U CROL INN AN WHOLE AN DI ID CEBRELETA UR DETH!
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:53
The T wrote:
Shh!! Quiet down you two... Mr Phelps might be listening.... |
He's a big prog fan. I hear he likes Torman Maxt.
Pnoom! wrote:
ITT: Henry Plainview has short term memory problems and posts things twice. |
My love for micky distracted me, and rather than waiting for the page to load and error out five more times, I decided to err on expressing my sapphire bullets of pure love love twice.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:54
Pnoom! wrote:
GoldenSpiral wrote:
Obviously Phelps is a douche, but the best option is to just ignore him. Without media attention they are nothing.
It is not the place of the government to determine what can or cannot be said in a non-violent demonstration.
Saying that people shouldn't be allowed to say they hate people is the same as making the argument that musicians shouldn't be allowed to be overly sexual in their music or say naughty words. Either way it's censorship.
The bottom line is, as long as assholes get attention, they will continue to be assholes. Passing laws against them is really a victory for their cause. |
Absolutely perfect post.
|
I concur.
But I still want the Phelps b*****d to rot in hell and burn in its fire for eternity... (contradiction intended)...
-------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:55
Henry Plainview wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
do you want me to go put flowers on his grave when he dies? |
No, I never said anything like that. |
I was more or less asking that question, because you never really gave a solid position on it, other than calling me an asshole (and since we're tossing around fallacies like a philosopher Johnny Appleseed, ad hominem, sucka!)
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
|
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 15:56
debrewguy wrote:
By ROB NAY
The Winnipeg Sun A fundamentalist church group from the U.S. has announced it plans
to picket the funeral of Tim McLean Jr. in Winnipeg, declaring, "God is
punishing Canada."
"
|
The MOMENT I read that line I knew who was responsible for this. All Im saying is, I'm tired of this guy and am not even gunna give this nut the satisfaction of acknowledging this act.
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 16:03
I didn't say you have to mourn him. Just don't be an asshole. |
He posted that pretty early, seems pretty clear to me (since he did at
least previously define what he meant by being an asshole).
It seems everybody in this thread should read others' posts at least twice before responding to them.
|
Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 16:07
The T wrote:
We still will have money and the human need for power (which also lies behind religion) to cause enough chaos and destruction...
Not sure if either money or power (the inherent need for which I question) is the "cause" of the human situation, which complexity is of the highest magnitude whence not easily nor likely deducible from one such cause.
Science, by defintion, CAN explain everything.
This sounds doctrinaire to me. Of course, science is our only known (and probably is) method for a reliable determination of knowledge. However, to suggest that it "can explain everything" without providing evidence for this assertion is to employ dogma in a manner which rivals that of the most vulgar of theists.
All that has to happen is for SCIENTIST to discover evidence. Oh, I forgot, the world is flat, and anybody who says it's round is wrong because science cannot explain everything...
Talk about straw men.
In any case, and with relevance to the topic, while indeed Phelps' actions are in poor taste, it is, in my opinion, inaccurate to suggest that those actions "abuse" the principle of free speech: quite the contrary, that principle, if it is to have any nontrivial function at all, is so constructed as to protect speech that the majority may not like, or even despise.
|
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 16:11
Science, by defintion, CAN explain everything. |
This
sounds doctrinaire to me. Of course, science is our only known (and
probably is) method for a reliable determination of knowledge.
However, to suggest that it "can explain everything" without providing
evidence for this assertion is to employ dogma in a manner which rivals
that of the most vulgar of theists. |
webster's dictionary wrote:
knowledge covering general truths of the
operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through
scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world. |
So, by definition, science covers anything related to how the universe works. Thus, science itself CAN and DOES explain everything, even if the study of science cannot.
|
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 16:16
Pnoom! wrote:
I didn't say you have to mourn him. Just don't be an asshole. |
He posted that pretty early, seems pretty clear to me (since he did at
least previously define what he meant by being an asshole).
It seems everybody in this thread should read others' posts at least twice before responding to them.
|
That's true, but I say that position seems perplexing to me. If being glad that someone like Phelps dies constitutes being an asshole, then I'd assume being sad Phelps died (unless, you were a loving family member or something) is either strange or really being an asshole. Only one option seemingly remains, which is being indifferent, and I guess we're all somewhat indifferent, because it's not like we had dinner with the guy, but I believe expecting indifference on this matter could be comparable but probably less extreme than expecting indifference on a polarizing matter like abortion.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
|
Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 16:30
Haven't you heard? Only the good die young. Or in America, only the
good die. Have you ever seen a person interviewed on a newscast
talking about a dead person say "He was an asshole?" No. They are
always the best person who ever lived in the history of mankind. Maybe
this guy will will break the trend.
------------- Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 16:32
@ Stonie:
Well what I think HP was saying (and what I myself would say) is that,
while you should celebrate the positive aspects of the death (as in,
celebrate that people will no longer have their grief doubled by his
antics), but don't celebrate the death itself. A very subtle
distinction, to be sure, and one with much the same effect as just
celebrating his death, but there is a difference. Most people can't
(or maybe just don't) separate the two, but, again, they are
different.
johnobvious wrote:
Haven't you heard? Only the good die young. Or in America, only the
good die. Have you ever seen a person interviewed on a newscast
talking about a dead person say "He was an asshole?" No. They are
always the best person who ever lived in the history of mankind. Maybe
this guy will will break the trend.
|
You clearly didn't watch Fox News' "tribute" to Kurt Vonnegut after he died.
|
Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 16:36
Pnoom! wrote:
webster's dictionary wrote:
knowledge covering general truths of the
operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through
scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world.
|
So, by definition, science covers anything related to how the universe works. Thus, science itself CAN and DOES explain everything, even if the study of science cannot.
|
Observe that the qualification in the definiens restricts such knowledge (itself a term for which its definition remains controversial) probable through empirical means. Surely it is not difficult to think of common examples for which the scientific method is not (presently, at least) conducive. So, it is trivial to conclude from the definition (if it is accepted at all, and for brevity here I will accept it) that the intention of science is to explain everything within the physical universe. However, this in no way advances the argument that science can explain those phenomena, nor does it approach any proof that science does explain everything, a claim that would not be taken seriously by any non-marginal subset of the scientific community. Also, I'm not sure if the distinction between "science" and "study of science" is either relevant to the discussion or meaningful in general; but I leave that as an exercise to the reader.
In the interest of clarity, I should note that my argument is neither an assault on science nor a defense of religion, but rather an attempt at precise specification of what is, in fact, science.
|
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 16:39
Science provides us with a method of understanding what is observed in the universe - nothing more, nothing less.
|
Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 16:49
NaturalScience wrote:
Science provides us with a method of understanding what is observed in the universe - nothing more, nothing less.
|
Not exactly. As science has no agency it can't "provide" anything.
However, if you replace the phrase "provides us with" with "is", then
we'll agree on the definition. Perhaps.
|
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 16:54
WinterLight wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
Science provides us with a method of understanding what is observed in the universe - nothing more, nothing less.
|
Not exactly. As science has no agency it can't "provide" anything.
However, if you replace the phrase "provides us with" with "is", then
we'll agree on the definition. Perhaps.
|
Yeesh, you are the king of semantics. That said, I agree with your proposed modification.
|
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 16:56
Yes, this science debate is irrelevant to the thread.
|
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 19:41
Ya know, I'm just hoping a mourner walks up to one of those guys, clocks' em, then gets off by claiming the group trespassed at a private event. Ii can see the "offender" getting their legal bill paid by donations, and I think there would be an outside chance that Canadian Jurisprudence might even find a way to deliver a not guilty verdict by way of saying the victim asked for it. This is based on good ol' hockey justice
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 20:01
debrewguy wrote:
Ya know, I'm just hoping a mourner walks up to one of those guys, clocks' em, then gets off by claiming the group trespassed at a private event. Ii can see the "offender" getting their legal bill paid by donations, and I think there would be an outside chance that Canadian Jurisprudence might even find a way to deliver a not guilty verdict by way of saying the victim asked for it. This is based on good ol' hockey justice
|
Even if they didn't get off they should clearly get the minimum sentence/penalty because that is a perfect example of a crime comitted in an "extreme state of mind."
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 20:34
Pnoom! wrote:
I completely disagree. Not only does it make them martyrs to their supporters, it suggests that the government's job is to protect the feelings of its citizens. While that arguably works on places like progarchives, in real life, where there are far greater consequences, it gives the government too much power to censor what it doesn't like, however well-meaning its intentions.
A far better response would be to simply stop paying them any attentions. It works with kids pulling attention stunts, and it will work with these overgrown babies as well.
|
I disagree with you Pnoom, if you are a father grieving for your son who has been dacapitated for being gay, the last thng you need is a bunch of fanatics dancing and shouting he deserved it.
A few days ago on another Prog forum I'm member, we started a debate about freedom of speech, and I took the part of proving how freedom of speech is being abused, the only thing in which we all agreed is that all rights must be protected and that Freedom of Speech is not more important than other rights.:
Is Freedom of Speech a Limit to other Freedoms and Rights?
(...)
All civil, personal and natural rights are important, if we have to limit one to protect the rest, lets do it; Freedom of Speech works, but it's time to limit it a bit in order to protect the integral rights and lives of citizens
It's the moment to give all rights the same range and place limits to this carnival of real or imaginary news protected by an abusive and misunderstood Freedom of Speech.
Freedom of Speech but with limits to the indiscriminate abuse.
Iván
|
This people are desecrating victims, soldiers who died defending their country (Even if you don't agree with the war, the soldiers are not guilty of what politicians do), innocent people who's only crime is not having the same sexual orientation as you and me.
Isn't the right to privacy or the right to act according to your religion and bury a person withtout being harrassed as important as the right to express hate??????
The Indiana General Assemby is not banning the protests of this lunatic, it's only giving a restriction order that prohibits them to protest in a range of 500 feetfrom the cemetery.
They can protest as much as they want a block and a half from the cemetery, but not disturb a RELIGIOUS CEREMONY IN HONOR OF A DEAD PERSON..
If something is not done, something ugly will happemn, the victims families are asking for the help of the Patriot Guard Riders and you don't need to be a wiard to know one of this days there will be problems.
It's in the hands of the Governments to stop this.
Iván
-------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 21:04
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The Indiana General Assemby is not banning the protests of this lunatic, it's only giving a restriction order that prohibits them to protest in a range of 500 feetfrom the cemetery. |
Yeah Indiana!
However, this can't be the best way. It's the same as allowing the protests at the Democratic National Committee...but only in free speech zones cages hundreds of yards away from where it could have any impact. You cannot have freedom of speech if you can only practice it in ever-increasingly limited spaces.
But we're getting too far from common sense here. As you pointed out, these cretinous slime yell and picket bereaved families in fragile states, and we expect them to be able to take this situation fairly and stoically as few humans could? They are abusing their right in the name of hatred, and I'm not above saying they should not have that right. Perhaps banning their freedom in these situations would be a slippery slope, perhaps not. Death, it seems, is very sacred, more so than your average herding of the people lest they make their representatives a little uncomfortable as they elect their bullsh*t nominee.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
|
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 21:14
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I disagree with you Pnoom, if you are a father grieving for your son who has been dacapitated for being gay, the last thng you need is a bunch of fanatics dancing and shouting he deserved it. |
This is an appeal to emotion and doesn't really belong in deciding what constitutes free speech abuse.
This people are desecrating victims, soldiers who died defending their country (Even if you don't agree with the war, the soldiers are not guilty of what politicians do), innocent people who's only crime is not having the same sexual orientation as you and me.
Isn't the right to privacy or the right to act according to your religion and bury a person withtout being harrassed as important as the right to express hate?????? |
It is indeed equally important which is why I don't think the picketers should be allowed to disrupt the service, because your rights only apply to the extent they don't encroach on those of others.
The Indiana General Assemby is not banning the protests of this lunatic, it's only giving a restriction order that prohibits them to protest in a range of 500 feetfrom the cemetery.
They can protest as much as they want a block and a half from the cemetery, but not disturb a RELIGIOUS CEREMONY IN HONOR OF A DEAD PERSON. |
But this is different from banning the pickets outright, which is all I opposed.
If something is not done, something ugly will happemn, the victims families are asking for the help of the Patriot Guard Riders and you don't need to be a wiard to know one of this days there will be problems.
It's in the hands of the Governments to stop this.
Iván |
Here again I disagree. If people cannot control themselves and think rationally even in grief, then they need to face the consequences of that inability. So long as one side allows cool heads to prevail (obviously the mourners), everything remains calm. If they don't... well, attacking the picketers is just as wrong as attacking someone for their religious views. They're both examples of attacks due to ideologies, and what the particular ideologies are really doesn't matter. It's not the job of the government to protect people from their own tempers. The 500 foot boundary preserves the rights of the mourners, anything else is excessive.
|
Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 21:20
Although I think that Phelps' beliefs are idiotic, I also maintain that he should have the right to articulate them. However, it seems like petulant kinderspiel to suggest that we possess the right to not have our feelings hurt or our sensibilities offended. A fortiori it is hypocrisy to eulogize free speech and then to deny its practice (at least if the practice of such privilege is to have any meaning).
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 21:23
stonebeard wrote:
Perhaps banning their freedom in these situations would be a slippery slope, perhaps not. Death, it seems, is very sacred, more so than your average herding of the people lest they make their representatives a little uncomfortable as they elect their bullsh*t nominee.
|
Just think in this way:
- A funeral is normally a RELIGIOUS event.
- The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion
- This people are DISTURBING A RELIGIOUS EVENT
So..........Which right must be protected? Both have Constitutional protection and the same rank.
So in this case the Judge must protect the ones that are acting peacefully, not those who disrupt in a religious event to disturb the believers.
It's simple, the right of a person ends where it enters in conflict with the right of another person.
And to make this right stronger, the preamble of the Constitution clearly says:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#WELFARE - Welfare , and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
How in hell can the Government guatantee domestic tranquility and promote General Welfare if a family can't bury a relative who died defending this Constitution or simply the funesral of a good citizen?
BTW: Caadian Constitution accepts limits to this rights:
So they shouldn't have a problem stoping this mailto:b@stards - b@stards .
Iván.
-------------
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 21:23
WinterLight wrote:
Although I think that Phelps' beliefs are idiotic, I also maintain that he should have the right to articulate them. However, it seems like petulant kinderspiel to suggest that we possess the right to not have our feelings hurt or our sensibilities offended. A fortiori it is hypocrisy to eulogize free speech and then to deny its practice (at least if the practice of such privilege is to have any meaning).
|
That is exactly true.
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 21:28
WinterLight wrote:
Although I think that Phelps' beliefs are idiotic, I also maintain that he should have the right to articulate them. However, it seems like petulant kinderspiel to suggest that we possess the right to not have our feelings hurt or our sensibilities offended. A fortiori it is hypocrisy to eulogize free speech and then to deny its practice (at least if the practice of such privilege is to have any meaning).
|
Just answer me something:
What can a judge do, when the Constitutional right of of one group enters in conflict with the Constitutional right of another group?
- Which one must you protect?
- The ones of thjose who are acting peacefully
- Or those who are abusing their right?
There must be a limit to anything.
Here in Perú for example, when the terrorists killed people, there were some newspapers celebrating the killings and promoting terrorist acts, the state had to balance and created a new crime "Apología del Terrorismo" Apology of terrorism, anybody who promoted a terrorist act by any mean would be subject of penal law.
This newspapers stopped, later was proved that some of this panflets sent encoded messages to the terrorists hidden in the news.
Dramatic situations need drastic measures.
Iván
-------------
|
Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 21:38
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
What can a judge do, when the Constitutional right of of one group enters in conflict with the Constitutional right of another group?
Not sure if there is a de facto conflict of Constitutional rights.
- Which one must you protect?
- The ones of thjose who are acting peacefully
- Or those who are abusing their right?
That one group is "abusing their right" hasn't been established; it's merely been assumed.
Dramatic situations need drastic measures.
I disagree. Taking "drastic measures" nullifies the purpose of having principles at all, i.e. we adopt certain standards when no crisis is at hand in order to facilitate rational decision making.
|
|
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 21:39
Pnoom! wrote:
The Indiana General Assemby is not banning the protests of this lunatic, it's only giving a restriction order that prohibits them to protest in a range of 500 feetfrom the cemetery.
They can protest as much as they want a block and a half from the cemetery, but not disturb a RELIGIOUS CEREMONY IN HONOR OF A DEAD PERSON. |
But this is different from banning the pickets outright, which is all I opposed.
|
AFAIK, most of the funeral laws I've heard of simply place a type of "restraining order" on the protesters, that they must stay x ft. away for some prescribed amount of time before, during, and after the service. Most states are probably aware that outright bans simply couldn't pass constitutional muster.
There are those who are more ardent defenders of free speech than I could be who oppose even these laws - they view such restrictions as unconstitutional, much like the "free speech zones" set up during national party conventions (viz., the Republican convention in 2004). Of course in today's society completely unrestricted assembly doesn't seem to be possible anyway; there's always a permit to be obtained and a lot of protests seem to be cordoned off or isolated in some way. It's why I find it bizarrely ironic when I hear Americans decry similar free speech zones in Beijing for the Olympics.
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 21:43
WinterLight wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
What can a judge do, when the Constitutional right of of one group enters in conflict with the Constitutional right of another group?
Not sure if there is a de facto conflict of Constitutional rights.
Yes there is, the protestors are not allowing the family of the dead person to have a peacefull RELIGIOUS ceremony....That's a conflict.
- Which one must you protect?
- The ones of thjose who are acting peacefully
- Or those who are abusing their right?
That one group is "abusing their right" hasn't been established; it's merely been assumed.
Phelps followers are disturbing a peaceful religious ceremony, while the faily of the dead person have not oirrupted in a ceremony of Phelps "Church"
Dramatic situations need drastic measures.
I disagree. Taking "drastic measures" nullifies the purpose of having principles at all, i.e. we adopt certain standards when no crisis is at hand in order to facilitate rational decision making.
Yes there's a situation of crisis, two groups in conflict will generate a riot, and I believed HATE CRIMES are tipified.
Iván
|
|
-------------
|
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 21:54
NaturalScience wrote:
Pnoom! wrote:
The Indiana General Assemby is not banning the protests of this lunatic, it's only giving a restriction order that prohibits them to protest in a range of 500 feetfrom the cemetery.
They can protest as much as they want a block and a half from the cemetery, but not disturb a RELIGIOUS CEREMONY IN HONOR OF A DEAD PERSON. |
But this is different from banning the pickets outright, which is all I opposed.
|
AFAIK, most of the funeral laws I've heard of simply place a type of "restraining order" on the protesters, that they must stay x ft. away for some prescribed amount of time before, during, and after the service. Most states are probably aware that outright bans simply couldn't pass constitutional muster.
There are those who are more ardent defenders of free speech than I could be who oppose even these laws - they view such restrictions as unconstitutional, much like the "free speech zones" set up during national party conventions (viz., the Republican convention in 2004). Of course in today's society completely unrestricted assembly doesn't seem to be possible anyway; there's always a permit to be obtained and a lot of protests seem to be cordoned off or isolated in some way. It's why I find it bizarrely ironic when I hear Americans decry similar free speech zones in Beijing for the Olympics.
|
The slight difference though is that provoking people enduring grief is likely to create extreme states of mind that lead to irrational actional, and thus is directly disturbing the peace. Free speech cages at the olympics or political rallies can't really claim this.
|
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 22:14
Pnoom! wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
Pnoom! wrote:
The Indiana General Assemby is not banning the protests of this lunatic, it's only giving a restriction order that prohibits them to protest in a range of 500 feetfrom the cemetery.
They can protest as much as they want a block and a half from the cemetery, but not disturb a RELIGIOUS CEREMONY IN HONOR OF A DEAD PERSON. |
But this is different from banning the pickets outright, which is all I opposed.
|
AFAIK, most of the funeral laws I've heard of simply place a type of "restraining order" on the protesters, that they must stay x ft. away for some prescribed amount of time before, during, and after the service. Most states are probably aware that outright bans simply couldn't pass constitutional muster.
There are those who are more ardent defenders of free speech than I could be who oppose even these laws - they view such restrictions as unconstitutional, much like the "free speech zones" set up during national party conventions (viz., the Republican convention in 2004). Of course in today's society completely unrestricted assembly doesn't seem to be possible anyway; there's always a permit to be obtained and a lot of protests seem to be cordoned off or isolated in some way. It's why I find it bizarrely ironic when I hear Americans decry similar free speech zones in Beijing for the Olympics.
|
The slight difference though is that provoking people enduring grief is likely to create extreme states of mind that lead to irrational actional, and thus is directly disturbing the peace. Free speech cages at the olympics or political rallies can't really claim this.
|
Ever try to drive in Washington during the World Bank meetings? Those protests pretty much shut down Foggy Bottom - making life a hell for people just trying to go about their business.
|
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 22:17
Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 22:23
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Not sure if there is a de facto conflict of Constitutional rights.
Yes there is, the protestors are not allowing the family of the dead person to have a peacefull RELIGIOUS ceremony....That's a conflict. I know nearly nothing about Canadian law; however, it's difficult to imagine that any nation could make such an intangible guarantee as the right to a "peaceful ceremony."
***
That one group is "abusing their right" hasn't been established; it's merely been assumed.
Phelps followers are disturbing a peaceful religious ceremony, while the faily of the dead person have not oirrupted in a ceremony of Phelps "Church"
Civil rights aren't necessarily premised on fairness. Should the government mandate that all of Winnipeg wear a black armband so as to honor the deceased, and of course, not offend its loved ones? Furthermore, there's no need to surround "church" with quotation marks, as that's what it really is (his organization is no less inane than other religious ones, but this is besides the point).
***
Dramatic situations need drastic measures. I disagree. Taking "drastic measures" nullifies the purpose of having principles at all, i.e. we adopt certain standards when no crisis is at hand in order to facilitate rational decision making.
Yes there's a situation of crisis, two groups in conflict will generate a riot, and I believed HATE CRIMES are tipified. If the two groups have the moral integrity of spoiled children, then maybe their collective paucity of discipline could evolve a "riot". But, still, the notion of hate crimes is a modern absurdity: for it is nothing more than subjecting thought to the penal code.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 22:39
WinterLight wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I know nearly nothing about Canadian law; however, it's difficult to imagine that any nation could make such an intangible guarantee as the right to a "peaceful ceremony." ***
That one group is "abusing their right" hasn't been established; it's merely been assumed.
Every country guarantees free excercise of RELIGION
Furthermore, there's no need to surround "church" with quotation marks, as that's what it really is (his organization is no less inane than other religious ones, but this is besides the point).
I believe yes, they have been classified as hate group, I don't believe an institution that promotes hate is a Church..
Iván
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 23:12
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Every country guarantees free excercise of RELIGION
Every country? It's doubtful that North Korea allows such religious freedom. But we don't even to leave this part of the globe to encounter restrictions on the "free exercise of religion." For Utah to join the Union, it had to forbid polygamy, which of course is a restriction on the practice of Mormonism.
...I don't believe an institution that promotes hate is a Church.
Fine. Then no institution qualifies as a church: religion inheres separatism, xenophobia, and hate (despite its capacity to promote sometimes the dual characteristics).
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 23:28
WinterLight wrote:
Every country? It's doubtful that North Korea allows such religious freedom. But we don't even to leave this part of the globe to encounter restrictions on the "free exercise of religion." For Utah to join the Union, it had to forbid polygamy, which of course is a restriction on the practice of Mormonism.
You are going to the other extreme, that's another case.
BTW: Poligammy attempts against the USA laws, not even a religion has the right to infringe the laws
Fine. Then no institution qualifies as a church: religion inheres separatism, xenophobia, and hate (despite its capacity to promote sometimes the dual characteristics).
Not every Church is separatist and sexist.
Iván
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 23:39
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Every country? It's doubtful that North Korea allows such religious freedom. But we don't even to leave this part of the globe to encounter restrictions on the "free exercise of religion." For Utah to join the Union, it had to forbid polygamy, which of course is a restriction on the practice of Mormonism.
You are going to the other extreme, that's another case. How is it extreme? Many thousands practice polygamy by religious mandate. You asserted that "every" nation guarantees the exercise of religious beliefs. But that just isn't so.
BTW: Poligammy attempts against the USA laws, not even a religion has the right to infringe the laws
But those laws restrict religious practice, no?
Not every Church is separatist and sexist.
I can't think of any counterexamples, can you?
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 00:28
WinterLight wrote:
How is it extreme? Many thousands practice polygamy by religious mandate. You asserted that "every" nation guarantees the exercise of religious beliefs. But that just isn't so.
Ok, we are talking about countries with a democratic traditions, there will always be totalitarian Governments, but freedom of religion isn't the worst problem in those countries, they don't have freedom of speech, reunion, free elections, right to a fair trial, etc.
Most surely they wouldn’t have problems with Phelps, they would simply shoot a person who attempts against the burial of one of the Revolutionary heroes.
But those laws restrict religious practice, no?
No, polygamy is hardly a religious practice; it's like saying Christian and Jewish religions allow slavery because it's mentioned in the Bible.
Many religions including Judaism allowed polygamy, but this religions had to adapt their USES to the laws of the countries.
BTW: There’s a difference in admitting polygamy and being a religious practice.
I can't think of any counterexamples, can you?
Of course every religion believes they are the chosen ones, but not every religion attack people, goes to a funeral or claims everybody except them are doom.
I know you won't believe it, but since the Vatican II Council, the Catholic Church admits salvation outside the Church, also Buddhism is against any form of religious discrimination, some Christian Churches are pretty advanced in rights issues.
And as them there are others.
Iván
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 00:56
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
No, polygamy is hardly a religious practice; it's like saying Christian and Jewish religions allow slavery because it's mentioned in the Bible.
The Church generally supports the status quo, be it slavery or marital norms.
Many religions including Judaism allowed polygamy, but this religions had to adapt their USES to the laws of the countries.
No argument here. My point is that such adaptation is a matter of restriction, no matter which way you interpret it.
BTW: There’s a difference in admitting polygamy and being a religious practice.
Of course. But in the case of Mormonism it is a religious practice.
Of course every religion believes they are the chosen ones, but not every religion attack people, goes to a funeral or claims everybody except them are doom.
I can't think of one religion the practitioners of which have not persecuted some group during some era. I'm not implying that all members of a particular religion behave this way all the time, but merely that such behavior occurs, and occurs rather ecumenically.
I know you won't believe it, but since the Vatican II Council, the Catholic Church admits salvation outside the Church,
But liberation theology, as well as other themes of the Vatican II, is considered controversial amongst Catholics (outside of Central and South America).
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 01:05
WinterLight wrote:
No argument here. My point is that such adaptation is a matter of restriction, no matter which way you interpret it
So...If a religion allows human sacrifices and the law bans this acts.....Is this a restriction?
I can't think of one religion the practitioners of which have not persecuted some group during some era. I'm not implying that all members of a particular religion behave this way all the time, but merely that such behavior occurs, and occurs rather ecumenically.
Times change, and religions also, could you imagine 30 years ago about sins against environment?
But liberation theology, as well as other themes of the Vatican II, is considered controversial amongst Catholics (outside of Central and South America).
Thanks for helping me make my point...Theology of Liberation may be controversial, as a fact I don't agree with it, because it's materialist and diminishes the importance of the divinity of Christ (Gustavo Gutierrez, founder of the Libetration Theology was my teacher in the University and we had some disagreements in class), but the Vatican has not excomunicated any priest or Bishop for being part of the theology............Times have changed, and the religions are more open to changes, at least some of them.
Being open minded doesn't mean you have to agree with everything, an issue can be controversial, but as long as people agree to disagree, it's OK.
Iván
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 08:14
I support their right to be total jerks, however I think we should also have the right to throw bricks at them , perhaps from a specified distance. What they do goes so much against the teachings of Jesus that the hypocrisy is breathtaking. If there is a God and if there is a hell, then surely there's a special place reserved for them where they will spend eternity being cornholed by overly endowed demons.
Some further thoughts. I drive by a women's clinic on the way in to work. This clinic performs abortions in addition to basic gynecological services. As contemptible as I find to harass women who are just going in for service or are needing an abortion, at least what they are doing is protest. What Fred and crew are doing is not protest, it's harassment and therefore not protected free speech.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 09:39
WinterLight wrote:
Fine. Then no institution qualifies as a church: religion inheres separatism, xenophobia, and hate (despite its capacity to promote sometimes the dual characteristics).
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So, as my wife and I were raised Catholic, we must be xenophobic sociopaths, right?
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Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 10:46
GoldenSpiral and Micky has already summed up what I think about the subject of this thread and of the thread itself.
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 10:56
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
No argument here. My point is that such adaptation is a matter of restriction, no matter which way you interpret it
So...If a religion allows human sacrifices and the law bans this acts.....Is this a restriction?
Yes, it is a restriction, but a justifiable one. This isn't a difficult concept.
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 11:03
NaturalScience wrote:
Fine. Then no institution qualifies as a church: religion inheres separatism, xenophobia, and hate (despite its capacity to promote sometimes the dual characteristics).
So, as my wife and I were raised Catholic, we must be xenophobic sociopaths, right?
Don't be obtuse. I used the term "religion" not "religious people" to underscore those specified tendencies in religious doctrine. It is a trivial observation to point out that the laity (and often the clergy) don't always adhere completely to orthodoxy.
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 12:51
WinterLight wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
Fine. Then no institution qualifies as a church: religion inheres separatism, xenophobia, and hate (despite its capacity to promote sometimes the dual characteristics).
So, as my wife and I were raised Catholic, we must be xenophobic sociopaths, right?
Don't be obtuse. I used the term "religion" not "religious people" to underscore those specified tendencies in religious doctrine. It is a trivial observation to point out that the laity (and often the clergy) don't always adhere completely to orthodoxy.
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I'd appreciate you dialing down the condescension, if you don't mind.
What I'm asking is I have never observed those properties you ascribe to any religion transmitted at all in the religious observances I've attended. Surely the dogma or doctrine containing xenophobia and hate would be propagated at these official services, wouldn't it?
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 16:22
NaturalScience wrote:
I'd appreciate you dialing down the condescension, if you don't mind.
Not condescension, but rather a tone appropriate in response to sarcastic baiting.
What I'm asking is I have never observed those properties you ascribe to any religion transmitted at all in the religious observances I've attended. Surely the dogma or doctrine containing xenophobia and hate would be propagated at these official services, wouldn't it?
Again, the answer is clear. Such principles need not be articulated explicitly in any official context, but rather they are understood through the related processes of internalization and separation. Also note that I never claimed that the practitioners of a particular religion adopt all or even some of the doctrines fundamental to their religion, only that religion (and to generalize still further, any belief system) is prone to social ossification--one need not probe the literature too deeply to uncover a plethora of such historical examples.
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 16:39
WinterLight wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
I'd appreciate you dialing down the condescension, if you don't mind.
Not condescension, but rather a tone appropriate in response to sarcastic baiting.
Unfortunately, I'm not an automaton, and your statement pushed a button. Then I realized this is all just anonymous intellectual w**kery on the internet, so I'll continue in that detached vein.
What I'm asking is I have never observed those properties you ascribe to any religion transmitted at all in the religious observances I've attended. Surely the dogma or doctrine containing xenophobia and hate would be propagated at these official services, wouldn't it?
Again, the answer is clear. Such principles need not be articulated explicitly in any official context, but rather they are understood through the related processes of internalization and separation.
I need clarification on "internalization and separation". In particular, if we may let's focus on the word hate. Your contention is that I, as a follower of religion, would somehow come to understand (through an unclear mechanism, possibly implication, subtext, etc.) hatred of something - but I gained no such understanding at any of the religious functions I attended. And though indeed you claim (correctly) that not all practitioners adopt all or even some doctrines, wouldn't I have to observe or somehow be aware of a doctrine in order to adopt or reject it?
Also note that I never claimed that the practitioners of a particular religion adopt all or even some of the doctrines fundamental to their religion, only that religion (and to generalize still further, any belief system) is prone to social ossification--one need not probe the literature too deeply to uncover a plethora of such historical examples.
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 18:03
NaturalScience wrote:
I need clarification on "internalization and separation".
If one wants to be part of a particular group (religious or otherwise), then at some point that individual must internalize, partially or completely, the values, beliefs, principles, etc. of that group. Of course, this process may or not may not be consciously or explicitly pursued. Once the individual internalizes the requisite doctrines, he has in effect separated himself from other social currents. In religion, this is formally acknowledged through certain rituals--one example from the Abrahamic species is circumcision (the Torah is ladened with many others), another, from Christianity in particular, is reception of the sacrament of communion.
In particular, if we may let's focus on the word hate. Your contention is that I, as a follower of religion, would somehow come to understand (through an unclear mechanism, possibly implication, subtext, etc.) hatred of something - but I gained no such understanding at any of the religious functions I attended.
I didn't suggest that a person necessarily would acquire such an understanding. Membership to any ideologically premised organization is symptomatic of present contempt for those who reject that ideology. To perceive the accuracy of this claim, one need only look to the adolescent melodrama that so characterizes the history of Protestantism.
And though indeed you claim (correctly) that not all practitioners adopt all or even some doctrines, wouldn't I have to observe or somehow be aware of a doctrine in order to adopt or reject it?
Again, one has already internalized the principles of the organization to which one seeks membership. It's analogous to the situation faced by polemical writers: they find that the majority of those who read their work are those already persuaded by its arguments.
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 22:44
Folks, all I wanted to point out is the blindness, the ignorance of extremists to the harm, the damage that they do their cause, and most importantly (Like I give a f**k about stupid causes) the disregard for the pain they cause the innocent victim. Protest abortion rights. Hey, that's your consititutional right to express your opposition. Harass, and endanger those who, for whatever personal reason, have opted for that painful choice, and you're putting your cause ahead of other peoples' real difficult situations. If you feel that Canukhistan, I mean Canada, has strayed from your view point of what your opinion of what your version of a Supreme being that you choose to personify as a God (whew, out of breath from trying to isolate the identity or belief of a select few) , might be, well , that is your interpretation, and you certainly should be able to follow up on those "understandings" (strange, how the ancient Israelites originally described 'god" as being unknowable or beyond human understanding ). But to intrude on a private ceremony, whether it be of grievance or joy, is too much. Heck , our Canadian minister of Public Safety, Stockwell Day, he of the creationist believing quarter of Christianity, had even ordered the border guards to watch out for these misguided souls and refuse them entry into our country. And even more, er ... ironic is not the word, but the slightly more sane wing of the Westboro Church has advised those who would picket the funeral that they might consider not going through with their initial plans for fear of their safety.
I don't care if an extremist is Christiam, Islamic, Right Wing Evangelical, Left wing environmental, Elitist snob or whatever. I have gone from youthful idealism to middle aged pragmatism. Fighting the good fight while harming many who you would argue you are saving is no longer acceptable. Period. I previously mentioned my Country's hockey attitude. Meaning, that if you act in an un-acceptable manner, the "refs" might not get you, but the other team will. Andyou'll find out that the "refs" may look the other way, knowing that you brought it upon yourself. Proudly, I read of a Canadian Internet petition that has so far amassed 700 plus signatures to form an "honour" guard around the funeral to keep the "picketers" at bay. But, I bow to my base animal instincts, and say, that any man that is willing to disrespect his fellow brother/sister in this way, is worthy of ending up with a "hockey" smile for his efforts. Free Speech, yes ... but expect that some freedoms will meet with a reasonable and acceptable revulsion to your lack of good sense and human kindness. Or , in a typical Canadian hockey metaphor, if you're going in the corners with your elbows up and stick in the air, don't expect the other guy to coddle and hug you in the corner, eh. And if you feel the price to pay is fair, don't complain about missing your two front teeth, OK, eh.
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 23:28
debrewguy wrote:
Folks, all I wanted to point out is the blindness, the ignorance of extremists to the harm, the damage that they do their cause, and most importantly (Like I give a f**k about stupid causes) the disregard for the pain they cause the innocent victim. Protest abortion rights. Hey, that's your consititutional right to express your opposition. Harass, and endanger those who, for whatever personal reason, have opted for that painful choice, and you're putting your cause ahead of other peoples' real difficult situations. If you feel that Canukhistan, I mean Canada, has strayed from your view point of what your opinion of what your version of a Supreme being that you choose to personify as a God (whew, out of breath from trying to isolate the identity or belief of a select few) , might be, well , that is your interpretation, and you certainly should be able to follow up on those "understandings" (strange, how the ancient Israelites originally described 'god" as being unknowable or beyond human understanding ). But to intrude on a private ceremony, whether it be of grievance or joy, is too much. Heck , our Canadian minister of Public Safety, Stockwell Day, he of the creationist believing quarter of Christianity, had even ordered the border guards to watch out for these misguided souls and refuse them entry into our country. And even more, er ... ironic is not the word, but the slightly more sane wing of the Westboro Church has advised those who would picket the funeral that they might consider not going through with their initial plans for fear of their safety.
I don't care if an extremist is Christiam, Islamic, Right Wing Evangelical, Left wing environmental, Elitist snob or whatever. I have gone from youthful idealism to middle aged pragmatism. Fighting the good fight while harming many who you would argue you are saving is no longer acceptable. Period. I previously mentioned my Country's hockey attitude. Meaning, that if you act in an un-acceptable manner, the "refs" might not get you, but the other team will. Andyou'll find out that the "refs" may look the other way, knowing that you brought it upon yourself. Proudly, I read of a Canadian Internet petition that has so far amassed 700 plus signatures to form an "honour" guard around the funeral to keep the "picketers" at bay. But, I bow to my base animal instincts, and say, that any man that is willing to disrespect his fellow brother/sister in this way, is worthy of ending up with a "hockey" smile for his efforts. Free Speech, yes ... but expect that some freedoms will meet with a reasonable and acceptable revulsion to your lack of good sense and human kindness. Or , in a typical Canadian hockey metaphor, if you're going in the corners with your elbows up and stick in the air, don't expect the other guy to coddle and hug you in the corner, eh. And if you feel the price to pay is fair, don't complain about missing your two front teeth, OK, eh.
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Amen brother!!!!!
Trying to force other people to follow your beliefs, is the most stupid thing to do, I wouldn't care if they loose the 4 front teeth.
Iván
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Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 08:41
debrewguy wrote:
Folks, all I wanted to point out is the blindness, the ignorance of extremists to the harm, the damage that they do their cause, and most importantly (Like I give a f**k about stupid causes) the disregard for the pain they cause the innocent victim. Protest abortion rights. Hey, that's your consititutional right to express your opposition. Harass, and endanger those who, for whatever personal reason, have opted for that painful choice, and you're putting your cause ahead of other peoples' real difficult situations. I
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Oh I almost start to cry...
What a pathetic drivel. But Massmurderer Morgenthaler has an Order of Canada...
Unborn children don't deserve human kindness according to this secular liberal mob, than wants to bully on everyone their rubbish.
At that really doesn't matter, that completely peaceful pro life activists suffer much more violence and death threats from Ecuador to Austria than reported by the politically correct media.
Anyway this thread deserves to sink to the depth of the forums, and I won't give a flying Mellotron what some dozen ignorant forum warriors think of me, so I certainly won't come back to this topic.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 09:17
Norbert wrote:
.
At that really doesn't matter, that completely peaceful pro life activists suffer much more violence and death threats from Ecuador to Austria than reported by the politically correct media.
Anyway this thread deserves to sink to the depth of the forums, and I won't give a flying Mellotron what some dozen ignorant forum warriors think of me, so I certainly won't come back to this topic.
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oh and I ALMOST start to cry... boo boo..
the problem is one...you all are not peaceful... and two.. have your priorities in the completely wrong spot. Protecting life is all well and good... for you all though... it stops when they are born and children are thrown to the wolves of a very harsh and cruel world. Read this article.. .and tell me where your so called pro-life activists... your compassion... your church was....
http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article750838.ece - http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article750838.ece
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 10:06
micky wrote:
Norbert wrote:
.
At that really doesn't matter, that completely peaceful pro life activists suffer much more violence and death threats from Ecuador to Austria than reported by the politically correct media.
Anyway this thread deserves to sink to the depth of the forums, and I won't give a flying Mellotron what some dozen ignorant forum warriors think of me, so I certainly won't come back to this topic.
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oh and I ALMOST start to cry... boo boo..
the problem is one...you all are not peaceful... and two.. have your priorities in the completely wrong spot. Protecting life is all well and good... for you all though... it stops when they are born and children are thrown to the wolves of a very harsh and cruel world. Read this article.. .and tell me where your so called pro-life activists... your compassion... your church was....
http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article750838.ece - http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article750838.ece
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To be fair, that child abuse was not apparently done by a religious extremist. However... http://philobiblon.co.uk/?p=1198 - http://philobiblon.co.uk/?p=1198 http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-2945510/The-Fundamentals-of-Extremism-the.html - http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-2945510/The-Fundamentals-of-Extremism-the.html http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1374/is_5_63/ai_107897342 - http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1374/is_5_63/ai_107897342
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 10:13
Slartibartfast wrote:
micky wrote:
Norbert wrote:
.
At that really doesn't matter, that completely peaceful pro life activists suffer much more violence and death threats from Ecuador to Austria than reported by the politically correct media.
Anyway this thread deserves to sink to the depth of the forums, and I won't give a flying Mellotron what some dozen ignorant forum warriors think of me, so I certainly won't come back to this topic.
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oh and I ALMOST start to cry... boo boo..
the problem is one...you all are not peaceful... and two.. have your priorities in the completely wrong spot. Protecting life is all well and good... for you all though... it stops when they are born and children are thrown to the wolves of a very harsh and cruel world. Read this article.. .and tell me where your so called pro-life activists... your compassion... your church was....
http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article750838.ece - http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article750838.ece
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To be fair, that child abuse was not apparently done by a religious extremist. However... http://philobiblon.co.uk/?p=1198 - http://philobiblon.co.uk/?p=1198 http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-2945510/The-Fundamentals-of-Extremism-the.html - http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-2945510/The-Fundamentals-of-Extremism-the.html http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1374/is_5_63/ai_107897342 - http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1374/is_5_63/ai_107897342
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never intended to say it was... my point was... pro-life is not a part-time job.. and caring, taking care of human life does not stop after birth. Instead of worrying about prevented unwanted births.. .why do those people not see the suffering going on on those that HAVE been born and invest the same amount of time and resourses on these children. That is what sort of burns my ass. And why.. though the thought of abortion makes me SICK.. it is still perferable if a parent is not ready or willing to undertake the INCREDIBLE amount of dedication it takes to raise a child in a loving and supporive enviroment. Do these pro-lifers.. the church step in to clean up the mess when mere kids fail to be up to the challenge of being a parent. Of course they don't.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 10:15
I was about to add that your point was not lost on me, though. My links actually back you up.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 10:18
taking a looksie Brian.. I got sucked into this thread by the double whammy of finding that article this morning then seeing Norberts post.. normally I like to stay out of these threads.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 10:50
"Whoever we are Wherever were from We shoulda noticed by now Our behavior is dumb And if our chances Expect to improve Its gonna take a lot more Than tryin to remove The other race Or the other whatever From the face Of the planet altogether"
...
"You cant run a country By a book of religion Not by a heap Or a lump or a smidgeon Of foolish rules Of ancient date Designed to make You all feel great While you fold, spindle And mutilate Those unbelievers From a neighboring state" To arms! to arms! Hooray! thats great Two legs aint bad Unless theres a crate They ship the parts To mama in For souvenirs: two ears (get down!) Not his, not hers, (but what the hey? ) The good book says: (it gotta be that way!) But their book says: Revenge the crusades... With whips n chains n hand grenades... Two arms? two arms? Have another and another Our God says: There aint no other! Our God says Its all okay! Our God says This is the way!
It says in the book: Burn n destroy... n repent, n redeem n revenge, n deploy n rumble thee forth To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side cause they dont go for whats in the book n that makes em bad So verily we must choppeth them up And stompeth them down Or rent a nice french bomb To poof them out of existance While leaving their real estate just where we need it To use again For temples in which to praise our god (cause he can really take care of business!)
And when his humble tv servant With humble white hair And humble glasses And a nice brown suit And maybe a blond wife who takes phone calls Tells us our God says Its okay to do this stuff Then we gotta do it, cause if we dont do it, We aint gwine up to hebbin! (depending on which book youre using at the Time...cant use theirs... it dont work ...its all lies...gotta use mine...) Aint that right? Thats what they say Every night... Every day... Hey, we cant really be dumb If were just following gods orders Hey, lets get serious... God knows what hes doin He wrote this book here An the book says: He made us all to be just like him, So... If were dumb... Then God is dumb... (an maybe even a little ugly on the side)" Frank Zappa
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 11:34
Norbert wrote:
Unborn children don't deserve human kindness according to this secular liberal mob, than wants to bully on everyone their rubbish.
Have you even read this thread? I've defended here this group's right to free speech despite my fundamental disagreement with the content of that speech. Moreover, to unify a diverse group of individuals under the dubious penumbra of "secular liberal mob" is to blind oneself to any nuances or differences in thought and opinion; indeed, it is rather likely that these "secular liberals" (not sure what this right-wing argot denotes, but I'm sure that it has nothing to do with secularism or liberalism, at least in the classical sense) agree on very little--my posts provide a ready example of this.
At that really doesn't matter, that completely peaceful pro life activists suffer much more violence and death threats from Ecuador to Austria than reported by the politically correct media.
Some evidence is in order. In any case, even if what you claim is true, the tendency is not historically unique: since we haven't given genuine credence to democratic principles, we often persecute minority opinions.
Anyway this thread deserves to sink to the depth of the forums, and I won't give a flying Mellotron what some dozen ignorant forum warriors think of me, so I certainly won't come back to this topic.
Indeed, all those who don't share your carefully constructed Weltanschauung are ipso facto ignorami of the first order.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 12:16
Norbert wrote:
Oh I almost start to cry...
What a pathetic drivel. But Massmurderer Morgenthaler has an Order of Canada...
Unborn children don't deserve human kindness according to this secular liberal mob, than wants to bully on everyone their rubbish.
At that really doesn't matter, that completely peaceful pro life activists suffer much more violence and death threats from Ecuador to Austria than reported by the politically correct media.
Anyway this thread deserves to sink to the depth of the forums, and I won't give a flying Mellotron what some dozen ignorant forum warriors think of me, so I certainly won't come back to this topic.
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As a fact, I'm against abortion except in the case of rape, therapreutical (Mother's life is first) and in the case the phoetus suffers from a terminal decease as Tay Sachs (The baby won't live and will die in terrible pain).
I also consider an aberration to award Morgenthaler with the Order of Canada in such a conflictive issue.
But the peaceful work done by 1,000 pro-life supporters, is ruined by one criminal who blows an abortion clinic or kills a doctor in name of life.
I've also known about cases in which this "peaceful" protestors attack, insult , harrass or even threaten women who are going to have a legal abortion.
I may not agree with a law, but I have to accept it.
Until this people don't break any tie with violent groups, they will receive criticism.
Iván
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 13:42
Odd that this is turning into an abortion discussion thread. It's supposed to be about that nut job, Fred Phelps and crew.
Something related in the news lately, pharmacists who are refusing to sell contraceptives on religious grounds. Anyone want to share opinions on that one? Personally, I think their licenses should be yanked.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 13:47
Slartibartfast wrote:
Odd that this is turning into an abortion discussion thread. It's supposed to be about that nut job, Fred Phelps and crew.
Something related in the news lately, pharmacists who are refusing to sell contraceptives on religious grounds. Anyone want to share opinions on that one? Personally, I think their licenses should be yanked.
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[/discussion]
(in other words, I agree)
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 14:03
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
As a fact, I'm against abortion except in the case of rape, therapreutical (Mother's life is first) and in the case the phoetus suffers from a terminal decease as Tay Sachs (The baby won't live and will die in terrible pain). |
At the risk of derailing this thread, I'll say this much about abortion: it shouldn't be a legal matter as it is inherently a private matter. While I have particular albeit vague misgivings about abortion, I have little doubt in the Constitutional right to privacy, the principle on which the US Supreme Court based its decision on Roe v. Wade. Even a modicum of respect for the classical liberal tradition should influence one to accept this view despite one's own moral conception of the matter.
Slartibartfast wrote:
Something
related in the news lately, pharmacists who are refusing to sell
contraceptives on religious grounds. Anyone want to share opinions on
that one? Personally, I think their licenses should be yanked.
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Agreed. While they're certainly entitled to hold the belief that contraception is immoral (personally, I disagree with that view but my opinion is irrelevant), they are remiss in their professional obligations to refuse disbursement of legally prescribed medication. Moreover, I think that it also interferes with the right to privacy, although it is not a governmental matter.
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 14:15
Agnosticism rocks, guys! Believing in a interactive god is ok and only slightly less reasonable than something like deism or agnosticism, imo, but to hold steadfast in a believe like atheism or any solid religion is...well...silly. A lot of atheists are perhaps agnostic but who don't choose to wallow in uncertainty forever, It seems hard for me to believe most atheists are more sure there isn't a god than they are sure they don't know there is a god. But to take the bible literally, after all of its translations and history, and without Jesus coming back to make sure we still believe in him....is just silly.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 19:01
WinterLight wrote:
At the risk of derailing this thread, I'll say this much about abortion: it shouldn't be a legal matter as it is inherently a private matter. While I have particular albeit vague misgivings about abortion, I have little doubt in the Constitutional right to privacy, the principle on which the US Supreme Court based its decision on Roe v. Wade. Even a modicum of respect for the classical liberal tradition should influence one to accept this view despite one's own moral conception of the matter.
Slartibartfast wrote:
Something related in the news lately, pharmacists who are refusing to sell contraceptives on religious grounds. Anyone want to share opinions on that one? Personally, I think their licenses should be yanked.
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Agreed. While they're certainly entitled to hold the belief that contraception is immoral (personally, I disagree with that view but my opinion is irrelevant), they are remiss in their professional obligations to refuse disbursement of legally prescribed medication. Moreover, I think that it also interferes with the right to privacy, although it is not a governmental matter.
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Agreed. 100%. You see Wintelight, when you give an opinion instead of picking on mine, I actually agree with you!
Oh... And to the "Norbert" guy.... after that very informed post of yours, I saw the mention of MY coun try in there... care to show the evidence little guy? Or you just picked Ecuador because it sounded third-world and "junglish"? Well, coming from somebody who expresses his poor ideas as poorly as you, I shoud actually laugh...
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