As you see I'm new here. I first found Muse-Wrapped  cuz I'm a huuuuge Walsh fan. One googling lead to another and viola, I found prog-archives as well. Both sites are killer IMHO and the forum here rocks. 

I'll be bach!

I would encourage everyone here to first get a full understanding of DRM's purposes. This may vary depending on who is using it. Sometimes even the artist or label gets to "customize the rules". 

There are huge marketing advantages for creators of music to use DRM as a "viral selling tool" and as a method to slow (and now track) piracy. For example, DRM is making it possible for us to ensure Steve Walsh is paid MORE for the track you bought. We can promote his upcoming album in ways not previously possible! We can also provide "pre-delivery of files"  (count down to a specific time and date) or add additional marketing impressions across other systems.

Are you aware that over 600 illegal downloads have already happened with the Magellan album? Well, those downloads were DRMed. We slowed the rate of theft by 98% and at the same time gave people the ability to demo the songs and choice to buy. Perfect balance. By the way, digital sales DO NOT erode physical CD sales, they actually increase them! Look it up. We've already proven this in the real world.

We have given you a very reasonable customer experience and user options, provided you good pricing and special access to music that would otherwise be unavailable. Our company has invested 7 digit money into preserving the future economic stability of this genre. Who else has stepped up in such a way? No one.

We will also bring many new exciting things forward that you are not even aware of yet. How about the benefit of the doubt here?

I too, misunderstood DRM a couple of years ago. It will offer countless more advantages as new digital music markets emerge. Question:

Do you leave your car unlocked or hand out your visa pin# to anyone? Of course not.

Why are you then asking artists like Steve Walsh, Kansas, and others to knowingly give away their music for free JUST so you can have your MP3? Experience shows that while you may be honest, many others are not. Buy his CD and make an mp3...viola you're there!

I am also very disappointed in some of the hypocrisy shown by certain people who claim to be fans of prog, yet they have absolutely no problem in stealing their favorite bands work. Trust me, I've got the proof. Not only are they stealing it, but some of them are the "actual sources" for others to use. How long can this go on? We'll work on a different sort of compression for this problem.

By the way, do you have any idea how "$&#*$ screwed the average "prog artist" really is? I'll bet you don't. How could you? Are you aware that the Magellan music you bought today represents the first time in my career where I benefited directly... not someone else first? 

Do you have the slightest idea what I went thru to make it? No way. It involved a hell of a lot more that writing and recording some music. 

Have you ever looked at the contracts of your fav bands? I've seen a ton of them. Have you asked yourself why a label (Musea) with over two decades of experience in selling this music would choose us as their EXCLUSIVE digital distributor? Again, think about it!

Our technology at http://hipsolve.com - http://hipsolve.com makes it possible for artists and labels to be paid directly to their own accounts in real time. Watch the flash presentation.

We have embarked on a long term project that will attempt to improve the future for progressive artists. We are even investing in exclusives.... just give us time.

I think I have little more credibility than most on this subject. Do you think I arrived at my conclusions by ignoring the last 15 years of my music career?

Do you think I've ever had a conversation with any of the worldclass musicians I've worked with over the years? Think about it. Why would we be putting so much behind this if it didn't make sense in the long term? We are in an evolution. Why trash that? Why not take the position of supporting the idea of  "spreading the influence and economy of progressive music" for a brighter future?

Say what you will, but I will defend musicians IP relentlessly. Did I mention that after we encode all the worlds progressive music, we will also promote it via a new music search engine that will be marketed to consumers outside the niche ? DRM is critical for the long term success of that project as well. Remember transactional efficiencies are vital. The more we streamline and offer micropayments solutions, the more the artist gets....get it? Inspired artists mean more music long term. I like music.

I think the point here is to promote progressive music to the world, right? How about becoming an evangelist instead of "one more road block for us to go around"? Don't get too committed to any one format. First, the music....the formats will come and go. If you rechannel your gripes you might even make a bigger difference to prog artists across the world than you realize!

By the way I've seen the soundscan reports for bands like DT, Tull and others. Don't steal their music...support them and buy it!

I am proud to be associated with Progarchives as we begin our evolution together.

Trent Gardner

General Manager

Muse-Wrapped Records,LLC

TrentGardner wrote: I would encourage everyone here to first get a full understanding of DRM's purposes. This may vary depending on who is using it. Sometimes even the artist or label gets to "customize the rules".  There are huge marketing advantages for creators of music to use DRM as a "viral selling tool" This is why I for one will never trust it. No matter who sells it. and as a method to slow (and now track) piracy. For example, DRM is making it possible for us to ensure Steve Walsh is paid MORE for the track you bought. We can promote his upcoming album in ways not previously possible! We can also provide "pre-delivery of files"  (count down to a specific time and date) or add additional marketing impressions across other systems. It's not all bad though - like anything Are you aware that over 600 illegal downloads have already happened with the Magellan album? Well, those downloads were DRMed. We slowed the rate of theft by 98% and at the same time gave people the ability to demo the songs and choice to buy. Perfect balance. By the way, digital sales DO NOT erode physical CD sales, they actually increase them! Look it up. We've already proven this in the real world. We have given you a very reasonable customer experience and user options, provided you good pricing and special access to music that would otherwise be unavailable. Our company has invested 7 digit money into preserving the future economic stability of this genre. Who else has stepped up in such a way? No one. We will also bring many new exciting things forward that you are not even aware of yet. How about the benefit of the doubt here? I too, misunderstood DRM a couple of years ago. It will offer countless more advantages as new digital music markets emerge. Question: Do you leave your car unlocked or hand out your visa pin# to anyone? Of course not. Why are you then asking artists like Steve Walsh, Kansas, and others to knowingly give away their music for free JUST so you can have your MP3? This is a very bad analogy. No-one expects artists to give away their work, but no-one buys stuff without having an inkling of what it is they're buying. Home taping did not kill music, as record sleeves used to threaten, and un-DRM'd mp3s have not killed it either. The music industry is just seeing dollars with wings, where before there were people exchanging music they had paid for, then buying more because they'd heard music they might not have heard otherwise. Experience shows that while you may be honest, many others are not. Buy his CD and make an mp3...viola you're there! You can be just as dishonest that way - viola, you can give a copy of the non-DRM'd mp3 to a friend... I am also very disappointed in some of the hypocrisy shown by certain people who claim to be fans of prog, yet they have absolutely no problem in stealing their favorite bands work. Trust me, I've got the proof. Not only are they stealing it, but some of them are the "actual sources" for others to use. How long can this go on? We'll work on a different sort of compression for this problem. Like I said, people like to hear it before they buy it. We don't like being called thieves, as we're not. People on ProgArchives buy music they like and ditch music they don't like. Great art talks and bullsh*t walks. By the way, do you have any idea how "$&#*$ screwed the average "prog artist" really is? I'll bet you don't. How could you? Are you aware that the Magellan music you bought today represents the first time in my career where I benefited directly... not someone else first?  Do you have the slightest idea what I went thru to make it? No way. It involved a hell of a lot more that writing and recording some music.  Have you ever looked at the contracts of your fav bands? I've seen a ton of them. Have you asked yourself why a label (Musea) with over two decades of experience in selling this music would choose us as their EXCLUSIVE digital distributor? Again, think about it! Our technology at http://hipsolve.com - http://hipsolve.com makes it possible for artists and labels to be paid directly to their own accounts in real time. Watch the flash presentation. We have embarked on a long term project that will attempt to improve the future for progressive artists. We are even investing in exclusives.... just give us time. I think I have little more credibility than most on this subject. Do you think I arrived at my conclusions by ignoring the last 15 years of my music career? Do you think I've ever had a conversation with any of the worldclass musicians I've worked with over the years? Think about it. Why would we be putting so much behind this if it didn't make sense in the long term? We are in an evolution. Why trash that? Why not take the position of supporting the idea of  "spreading the influence and economy of progressive music" for a brighter future? Say what you will, but I will defend musicians IP relentlessly. Did I mention that after we encode all the worlds progressive music, we will also promote it via a new music search engine that will be marketed to consumers outside the niche ? DRM is critical for the long term success of that project as well. Remember transactional efficiencies are vital. The more we streamline and offer micropayments solutions, the more the artist gets....get it? Inspired artists mean more music long term. I like music. I think the point here is to promote progressive music to the world, right? How about becoming an evangelist instead of "one more road block for us to go around"? Don't get too committed to any one format. First, the music....the formats will come and go. If you rechannel your gripes you might even make a bigger difference to prog artists across the world than you realize! By the way I've seen the soundscan reports for bands like DT, Tull and others. Don't steal their music...support them and buy it! I am proud to be associated with Progarchives as we begin our evolution together. Trent Gardner General Manager Muse-Wrapped Records,LLC

I like a lot of your ideas (generally those where I haven't inserted observations and comments), but taking the hard-line industry stance on "freebies" is not endearing - although I understand that it is business. It discourages me from wanting to know any more.

I think the industry should understand that a certain amount of palm-greasing should happen at levels other than the board of directors and CEOs; If we, the music punters, have a couple of free tracks from an album, and we like them, then there are more potential sales there than some exec telling us "This is really great, it sounds like ...".

...I'm like this with everyone - don't take this as representative of the feelings of the ProgArchives community at large unless they agree with me

I'll go one or two steps further than Cert...I don't really care for the attitude expressed in TG's post, and I won't be spending a cent on Muse-Wrapped, due solely to that one post. In fact, if my favorite band had an exclusive track on their site, I would go out of my way to obtain it through other means, just out of spite, and send a check to the band directly instead.

Is Magellan even any good? It's hard to believe someone who thinks like that could be responsible for music of any quality.

To Certif1ed, you wrote:

"Like I said, people like to hear it before they buy it. We don't like being called thieves, as we're not. People on ProgArchives buy music they like and ditch music they don't like. Great art talks and bullsh*t walks."

There's a 30-45 second sample of EVERY song of every ALBUM on the site that you can listen to as much as you want to without paying a nickel. No credit card or email address required.

Sounds fair enough to the artists and fans alike. What other merchandise is there in the world you can take home, use, copy, distribute, and even discard without paying for it first? Samples are good enough for me. If I'm not impressed with their samples I don't buy it so they'll have no right to complain...:)

James Lee wrote: I'll go one or two steps further than Cert...I don't really care for the attitude expressed in TG's post, and I won't be spending a cent on Muse-Wrapped, due solely to that one post. In fact, if my favorite band had an exclusive track on their site, I would go out of my way to obtain it through other means, just out of spite, and send a check to the band directly instead. Is Magellan even any good? It's hard to believe someone who thinks like that could be responsible for music of any quality.

I don't mean to sound like a shill for Muse-Wrapped or even Magellan, but the article I read in Billboard about Hipsolve and Muse-Wrapped made it clear they'll be targeting all types of music in the future, not just prog. I don't think they'll lose any sleep or money just because James Lee dissaproves.

Man Overboard wrote: 45-second-samples for prog?  Hah!

Good point!    I suppose the reality of server space kicked in. But 45 seconds is pretty good all things considered.

garrett wrote: James Lee wrote: I'll go one or two steps further than Cert...I don't really care for the attitude expressed in TG's post, and I won't be spending a cent on Muse-Wrapped, due solely to that one post. In fact, if my favorite band had an exclusive track on their site, I would go out of my way to obtain it through other means, just out of spite, and send a check to the band directly instead. Is Magellan even any good? It's hard to believe someone who thinks like that could be responsible for music of any quality. I don't mean to sound like a shill for Muse-Wrapped or even Magellan, but the article I read in Billboard about Hipsolve and Muse-Wrapped made it clear they'll be targeting all types of music in the future, not just prog. I don't think they'll lose any sleep or money just because James Lee dissaproves.

Nope, they probably won't. Welcome to the long dark WalMart of the soul.

Man Overboard wrote: I sent Trent an email regarding the situation.  Text is as follows: The thing is, I have an MP3 CD player, and I like to burn multiple albums to a single disc for travelling.  I'd like to include Symphony For A Misanthrope in my next compilation, and I'm well aware that I can do that by burning a CD, then ripping the audio in a traditional manner, *then* burning the final disc.  The problem with that is in sonic fidelity.  Recompressing compressed audio data results in low-quality audio.  Again, not the *worst* possible situation.

Maybe they should simply offer lossless audio formats to be downloaded (FLAC, or low compression OGG or even MP3, and others I don't remember). That should do the trick for you...

I have to say I agree with the concerns and suspicions of the collaborators on this one, and will take ManOverboard's point a bit further.  I dont think you are alone in that 'dork'-ish attitude to music, and you will find that most prog fans will legitimately own their current music collections, and will continue to buy CDs and Vinyl from reputable merchants on the basis of reviews and sample downloads from sites like this.

I think Mr Gardner has perhaps confused genuine music fans, such as the vast majority of contributors to these forums, with teenage quik-fixers who dont want to fork out $4 for Avril Lavigne's latest classic.  I understand his sentiments - the artist has a right to get paid - but believe me Trent, I doubt prog record sales are in jeopardy because of file-sharing software.  Perhaps the bands that you mention are not selling discs for other reasons...

Adopting such a righteous tone gets everyone's backs up (see above).  It was a mistake made (and SORELY regretted) by one Mr L. Ulrich a few years back, which resulted in staged Metallica-CD burning fests, and got them a reputation as money-grabbing corporatites.  

To be perfectly honest, I am quite happy with the way I discover music through reading reviews written by people who care, and through listening to sample TRACKS (not 45 sec samples - what would your sample be for Close To The Edge?  Or Tubular Bells?  Supper's Ready?)  

I have to say this method of discovery will remain the same, as will my purchase of such music through legitimate means.   

The DRM topic regarding Muse-Wrapped is one of the few debates that can actually be resolved by anyone interested in doing so. Just go to the site and check it out for yourselves. Give it a twirl, if you don't like it, great. If you do like, great. Everyone gets to decide for themselves and everyone will be right. At least this isn't one of those endless "Best 5 prog singers" type of topics.

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: To be perfectly honest, I am quite happy with the way I discover music through reading reviews written by people who care, and through listening to sample TRACKS (not 45 sec samples - what would your sample be for Close To The Edge?  Or Tubular Bells?  Supper's Ready?)   I have to say this method of discovery will remain the same, as will my purchase of such music through legitimate means.

With no Radio airplay how do you expect to hear them?  As for buying sample tracks(which is what I am guessing Muse is doing)  I would rather buy satellite radio which would at least give you a variety of music for a very low monthly price by comparison. I have purchased many copies of many records and CD 's over the years. For my favorite bands i have purchased multiple copies of the same package Ie Album, First CD release, Digital master Release, Digital Master release with bonus tracks etc.

garrett wrote: Man Overboard wrote: 45-second-samples for prog?  Hah!     Good point!    I suppose the reality of server space kicked in. But 45 seconds is pretty good all things considered.

Actually, 45 seconds doesn't give you a clue where a reasonable piece of prog is concerned.

It's not like pop music, where once you've heard the verse and chorus then that's it.

I'd like to go back to that deeply flawed analogy of giving everyone your PIN number, my point in which I thought might be contested:

Once I have a piece of music in recorded format, I can then record it to mp3 very easily - through analogue means if necessary - and circumvent any DRM with ease, then distribute said mp3 among my friends.

DRM is a pain in the arse - nothing more, nothing less. It makes the process of copying more of a chore, (except on Linux-enabled computers ), but cannot prevent it. In fact, it will more likely encourage it, as someone who has circumvented it will pass unDRM'ed copies among their friends, who don't want the bother either.

In short, it will stop people copying music in the same way the audio cassette did.

Garion81 wrote: [QUOTE=Wrath_of_Ninian] To be perfectly honest, I am quite happy with the way I discover music through reading reviews written by people who care, and through listening to sample TRACKS (not 45 sec samples - what would your sample be for Close To The Edge?  Or Tubular Bells?  Supper's Ready?)   I have to say this method of discovery will remain the same, as will my purchase of such music through legitimate means.

With no Radio airplay how do you expect to hear them?  As for buying sample tracks(which is what I am guessing Muse is doing)  I would rather buy satellite radio which would at least give you a variety of music for a very low monthly price by comparison. I have purchased many copies of many records and CD 's over the years. For my favorite bands i have purchased multiple copies of the same package Ie Album, First CD release, Digital master Release, Digital Master release with bonus tracks etc.

Sorry Garion, not really sure what you are getting at there.  What I meant was that I discover new music by listening to FREE sample tracks off Progarchives and reading the reviews of the albums.  I've been introduced to numerous new acts through these means, and have gone on to purchase many CDs (most recently Paatos and Genesis) which I now cherish. From what I gather, Muse-wrap offer 45-second samples of certain songs as a taster, and I was merely suggesting (as others did before me) that for prog rock music this is a nonsense.  I'm a bit worried that the new 'partnership' will see the end of Progarchives free samples in favour of Muse-Wrap's new pay-as-you-go system.

By the way, you can listen to prog digital stations via Progarchives too - no need to buy a digital radio.  Just download Realplayer for free and log on.  They're pretty good too. 

As I understand it, you can purchase downloads, without any packaging, with less quality and you are not able to (immediatly) do with the music what you want?

sounds like a bad deal to me.

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: Garion81 wrote: [QUOTE=Wrath_of_Ninian] To be perfectly honest, I am quite happy with the way I discover music through reading reviews written by people who care, and through listening to sample TRACKS (not 45 sec samples - what would your sample be for Close To The Edge?  Or Tubular Bells?  Supper's Ready?)   I have to say this method of discovery will remain the same, as will my purchase of such music through legitimate means.        With no Radio airplay how do you expect to hear them?  As for buying sample tracks(which is what I am guessing Muse is doing)  I would rather buy satellite radio which would at least give you a variety of music for a very low monthly price by comparison. I have purchased many copies of many records and CD 's over the years. For my favorite bands i have purchased multiple copies of the same package Ie Album, First CD release, Digital master Release, Digital Master release with bonus tracks etc.   Sorry Garion, not really sure what you are getting at there.  What I meant was that I discover new music by listening to FREE sample tracks off Progarchives and reading the reviews of the albums.  I've been introduced to numerous new acts through these means, and have gone on to purchase many CDs (most recently Paatos and Genesis) which I now cherish. From what I gather, Muse-wrap offer 45-second samples of certain songs as a taster, and I was merely suggesting (as others did before me) that for prog rock music this is a nonsense.  I'm a bit worried that the new 'partnership' will see the end of Progarchives free samples in favour of Muse-Wrap's new pay-as-you-go system. By the way, you can listen to prog digital stations via Progarchives too - no need to buy a digital radio.  Just download Realplayer for free and log on.  They're pretty good too.

Well I was agreeing with you on one hand and putting down the concept of paying for preview tracks on the other as it sounded like Muse was/is doing.  Your comment on the colaboration is valid along the same line.  I just didn't articulate the thought properly. 

I know about prog radio but you need to be near a computer to hear it (Streaming media is blocked at work).  I spend more time in my car where satellite radio would be an advantage.

James Lee wrote:   Is Magellan even any good? It's hard to believe someone who thinks like that could be responsible for music of any quality.

Though everyone has different tastes, check out the following musicians who thought Trent Gardner of Magellan was worth working with:

DREAM THEATER, (all members except Jordan Rudess)

Terry Bozzio (Frank Zappa, UK, etc, etc.)

Kerry Livgren (Kansas, Proto-Kaw)

Steve Walsh (Kansas)

Billy Sheehan (Mr. Big, Talas, Niacin)

Marty Friedman (Megadeth)

Steve Howe (Yes)

Virgil Donati (Steve Vai, Planet X)

James Murphy (Testament, Death)

Gary Wehrkamp (Shadow Gallery)

D.C. Cooper (Royal Hunt)

Bret Douglas (Cairo)

Derek Sherinian (former Dream Theater)

Pat Mastelotto (King Crimson)

Billy Greer (Kansas)

John Wetton (Asia, UK)

Michele Young (Glass Hammer, etc.)

Peter Banks (Genesis)

Geoff Downes (Yes, Asia)

Terry Brown (Rush producer)

The list goes on...

The above collaborations are facts, not opinions. Love Magellan or not, Trent G. must have something going for him.

Signed,

His mother...

garrett wrote: Signed, His mother...

  I like you already!

BTW: is muse-wrapped really out of business (as the other vendor claimed)? The website says some BS about "offline while we continue our evolution".

garrett wrote: As you see I'm new here. I first found Muse-Wrapped  cuz I'm a huuuuge Walsh fan. One googling lead to another and viola, I found prog-archives as well. Both sites are killer IMHO and the forum here rocks.  I'll be bach!

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