Musical Education of Prog Greats
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Forum Name: General Music Discussions
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48537
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Topic: Musical Education of Prog Greats
Posted By: Wuschel
Subject: Musical Education of Prog Greats
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 05:25
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Hi, some time ago someone in this forum said that one of the major differences between classical music and prog is that classical composers learned all the stuff about music theory and really know what they are doing, while prog musicians compose their music just by ear. Is this really the case? Are their any prog musicians, who are known to have studied music composition? |
Replies:
Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 06:56
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I would of thought most of them would exspecially the fusion bands,but saying that i dont think i could name to many. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 08:22
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Swiss-born Patrick Moraz certainly studied composition: it took him just a few hours to write a minimoog solo in Bachian style for "To Be Over" (not that Bach ever owned a minimoog), and the final track of THE STORY OF I has him performing (on mellotrons) a pastiche of late-romantic symphonic music.
I'm pretty sure Dave Stewart and other musicians associated with Egg / Hatfield and the North / National Health had studied music; otherwise they could never have come up with such superb (ocasionally rather academic) arrangements. The main composers for Discus, the superb Indonesian avant-garde AND symphonic prog band, studied music, both in their home country and in the U.S. No doubt there are many more examples. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 09:51
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The list of prog muscians who have studied music composition would be a pretty big list I'd imagine.
Slightly off topic, but as you said about prog rockers composing by ear, even myself (I don't play strictly prog, I play a lot of styles) like to compose music without the aid of an instrument, relying on what I've learnt from studying theory and of course using pitch memory to compose music, from rock, metal, prog and even my own pieces in the Baroque style. Of course I can still go back to composing with an instrument and "by ear" as well. ------------- 
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 10:25
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Good ole Rick Wakeman came out of the conservatory, Royal Academy of Music and I am sure that an inordinate amount have come from that kind of environment, especially the keyboardists. Violinists Jobson and Way are from the music school environment. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 10:49
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Studying composition and studying music theory or performance are a bit different in terms of exactly what courses one takes, but here's a short list of a few of the greats who studied music at the university or conservatory level. I am not certain of their primary focus (theory, composition, or performance), nor whether all actually graduated, bit all these certainly had the benefit of university music training. Rick Wakeman Kerry Minnear Keith Emerson Patrick Moraz Eddie Jobson Trevor Rabin Geoff Downes Tomas Bodin Tony Levin Steve Morse Jordan Rudess John Pretucci John Myung Mike Portnoy Keving Moore Chris Buzby Thijs van Leer Dave Bainbridge ton scherpenzeel Pim koopman It might be kind of cool if the thread starter could keep tabs through all the posts and compile a list in the first post of all we come up with. It is certain to be fairly lengthy. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 06:25
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I do believe more got their education of the road, paying their dues. Eddie Jobson has been mentioned above - however, he cites his year with Frank Zappa as like being at university. And I think of major in-demand drummers such as Simon Phillips and Gary Husband playing originally in dance bands (Simon is Sid Phillips' son) - as did (the somewhat forgotten) Ric Parnell - again his fathewr's dance band. Andy Summers in his autobiography reveals that Robert Fripp replaced him in a Bournemouth dance band. And a question I've asked for a very long time, in the cases of Jon Lord and Keith Emerson how much was it a combination of honing one's skills on the road and doing part-time/distance learning study - their orchestral pieces suggest some development from academic exercises in advanced musical theory? Then the numbers of drummers who have undergone part-time education at musical college - e.g. Carl Palmer - and I must mentioned Brian Bennett, best known for playing drums with the Shadows for the last 45 years - but also played timps in one classical orchestra and then also played drums in Georgie Fame's Blue Fames band mid 60's. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Wuschel
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 07:02
| What about Tony Banks? Did he compose pieces like Apocalypse and Firth of Fifth without knowing about music theory? |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 08:42
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I'm sure Eddie probably did learn a lot working for 'ol Frank at "Pottymouth U", but you can also be sure as eggs is eggs that Frank would never have hired him in the first place if he hadn't been able to read, play AND understand the music Frank was putting in front of him. His music education got him the job. You can learn a lot of music theory from simply taking piano (or other music) lessons from the right teacher and I think the connection between studying theory and composing is often overstated. Tony Banks certainly knows a fair amount of basic theory, you can't play what he plays without it, but it is doubtful that he uses much applied theory in the act of composition. He brought in an outside person to do the orchestration for his classical album "Seven" because he didn't feel he had the skills in that area due to his lack of education (Malmsteen did the same on his orchestral album). Having a good understanding of chords and rhythm and a willingness to experiment to see what sounds good is the majority of what Tony had going for him. Music Theory helps you understand WHY certain chords are often used together or HOW a particular scale is put together. It is not , as it is often misunderstood, a set of rules for composing music. In its most simple definition, music theory explains what composers have done in the past. It can never tell them (with the exception of extreme dullard composers and serialism which is not really under discussion here) what they should, or what they are allowed to do in the future. I think the thread starter is more interested in with respect to prog rock is the study of composition rather than theory. To compose music the theory "required" of a prog-rocker is pretty rudimentary (sophomore level is more than enough). Chops and creativity will take you farther than extensive knowledge of theory. What is more important is the willingness to experiment and the instrumental skill to actually play one's good ideas. Most of those on the list I put up were PERFORMANCE majors. They went to music school to become classical concert pianists and discovered prog rock by accident. Take a couple of years of music theory, you'll never regret it (except at exam time), but don't count on it to make you into a composer. |
Posted By: Wuschel
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 09:58
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Jean Michel Jarre studied Harmony and counterpoint at the conservatory. Ryuichi Sakamoto (from YMO) studied composition , electronic and ethnic music. btw.: Does anybody know a good website about music theory? I would like to learn more about modulations and counterpoint. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 12:58
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I know that Danny Carey studied jazz-drums at university level, which probably explains why he's so frickin brilliant.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: fishsquire
Date Posted: May 26 2008 at 20:03
| Composing on paper never did it for me. I studied theory for about two years and understood it well. I have never enjoyed using it, however. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 27 2008 at 02:57
That's a difficult question to answer, without knowing where you are at the moment!
You can Google modulations - there are only so many ways of changing key within a piece.
Counterpoint is more tricky - you can spend years at university studying it, and never finish.
It's an art, while modulations are just technique. If you're really into counterpoint, you can simply write as much as possible, and enjoy how the voices all work together - and examine scores to see how other composers did it. Bach is always a good bet for some stunning examples - but I must admit to a preference for Handel and Vivaldi.
You studied it for 2 whole years and understand it well?
You must be a direct descendent of Mozart!
Composing on paper is HARD and for REAL musicians  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Wuschel wrote: