Print Page | Close Window

Dream Theater and T. S, Eliot: An Essay

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Blogs
Forum Description: Blogs, Editorials, Original articles posted by members
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=46736
Printed Date: November 23 2024 at 17:37
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Dream Theater and T. S, Eliot: An Essay
Posted By: docsolar
Subject: Dream Theater and T. S, Eliot: An Essay
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 19:04
Hello all!

I wrote an essay putting T. S. Eliot's poem "The Waste Land" side-by-side with Dream Theater's track "Octavarium" on terms of theme, movements, and rising/falling action...I thought it would be of interest to the folks around here. Enjoy, and give feedback please! Thanks!

T. S. Eliot and Dream Theater: Echoing the Eternal Music

"Hm."

That's what my girlfriend thinks of progressive metal.

Dream Theater is a progressive metal band, specializing in abrupt key/tempo changes, a symphonic and sometimes bombastic tendency in their composition, melodic vocals, and individual member virtuosity. The five members of Dream Theater combine their disciplines (guitar, drums, vocals, keyboard, and bass guitar) to create a sometimes frantic, sometimes silky-smooth polyphonic frenzy. On their 2005 album Octavarium, Dream Theater trek farther along on the sonic trail they have blazed for themselves by composing a 24-minute epic of the same name. This piece consists of five movements of individual emotional quality that when presented as whole serve the listener with a five-course dinner of multi-faceted music.

"Was that all one song?"

Dream Theater is not unique in the attitude toward the suite to express a deeper, more elaborate sense of meaning. T. S. Eliot gave his definitive effort with "The Waste Land", also a five-movement piece that uses varied moods and themes to express a large-scale picture. The similarities between the two works do not stop here, however. "Octavarium" and "The Waste Land," on closer inspection, seem to be attempting an expression of similar states of humanity as a whole. Both Dream Theater's "octavarium" motif and T. S. Eliot's "wasteland" are literary devices used to express fatalism in regards to the human condition as it grows steadily toward empty repetition and efficiency through conformity. In this way, T. S. Eliot and Dream Theater similarly entrap their audience in their respective symbols for socialized humanity, the wasteland and the octavarium.

"The Waste Land's" impact when it was published in 1922 was considered phenomenal in part because it was an abstract poem that treated itself like a suite of music (Publishes 1). The work trades the traditional method of using concrete plot and/or themes for an abstract presentation of multiple symbols all working together to make one impression on the reader. As David Perkins, an English and American literature professor at Harvard writes of the "mad medley's" first fans, "admirers were challenged to account for their feeling of coherence in a poem without continuity of setting, style, speaking voice, or plot. The poem, they presently said, was organized like music" (Perkins 76).

The poem utilizes three main themes that reccur throughout the entire work to convey the concept of the wasteland: the theme of the "wasteland" itself (to represent the defeated, conformist state of humanity), the "water theme" (to represent salvation from the wasteland), and the metropolitan theme (to represent the masses who are stuck in the figurative wasteland). Perkins sees a similarity between the presentation of themes in "The Waste Land" and that of a post-Wagnerian suite: "As the themes return in a new context, they bring with them suggestions and associations from former contexts and become progressively denser nodes of connotation and feeling" (77).

Where T.S. Eliot's piece has a music-like effect, Dream Theater's "Octavarium" is, in fact, a piece of music. In the context of music, Dream Theater is allowed to convey themes on two levels: both lyrical themes and melodic motifs. Dream Theater's piece has three main melodic themes that reccur throughout: the main theme (presented early-on and touched back upon at the end), the melancholy theme (played initially by a solitary flute at the beginning of the first movement) and the optimistic theme (played first at the end of the second movement on Rudress' squeaky-clean synthesizer).

"Octavarium" deals with non-conformity to social norms with the lyrical symbol of the octavarium. The octavarium is a word which functions as a Latin neologism: "octave", meaning the concept of a musical octave, and "-arium", used to denote a place where something is held (Octavarium 1). The arrangement of notes on the eight-step musical scale has a bottom note, "1", and a top note, "8". The top "8" can be expressed as the "1" of a higher scale (the distance between 1 and 8 is called an octave), beginning the 8-step scale anew. This symbolic "octavarium" is used to describe the band's experience of being engulfed in their music careers and the human experience in general. Humanity, Dream Theater argues, suffers an inescapable, cyclic fate that has been predetermined for them by their society, just as the band personally feels trapped by their music careers (pressures from fans to produce output that meets their expectations, pressure to maintain an artistic and commerical level of success, etc.) The fate varies from person to person, but its universality does not.

The pieces go through similar cycles of emotion and theme. Both begin their first movements calmly: Dream Theater's introduction consists of a soft, atmospheric synthesizer playing chords beneath a melodic, seemingly wandering lap steel guitar lead, while Eliot's piece begins with sets of chant-like rhyming lines describing a melancholy spring scene. This rhythm, Perkins writes, "Seemed to be continuing in the eighth line with 'Summer surprised us'. But suddenly an altogether different voice was heard, that of Marie" (Perkins, 75-76). The pieces take a darker turn as Dream Theater's synthesizer gets spookier, corresponding with Eliot's turn from rhyme and rhythm into the haunting free-verse style that dominates the piece. The pieces proceed to unveil their main themes. In "Octavarium," it is presented with the main melodic theme, thundered in by the entire band sans vocals. In "The Waste Land," the line "What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish?" (33) introduces the desolation theme to the audience.

Octavarium proceeds in its first movement to introduce lyrics about the will to take a non-conformist stance toward social norms. The first words, sung over only a strumming acoustic guitar, emerge: "I never wanted to become someone like him so secure / Content to live each day just like the last." The lyrics first give a narrative of the protagonist's decision to pursue the life that is right for him before they tell of his subsequent desire to be like everyone else: "So suddenly / the only thing / I wanted / To become / To be someone just like him".

Eliot describes a theme of non-conformity by using his "metropolitan" theme to symbolize the will of the masses. In the poem, the narrator observes a huge crowd of people traveling across London Bridge. He then sees someone he recognizes on the bridge and begins to attempt a conversation of odd pleasantries from afar, but to no avail. The narrator ends up cursing his friend and giving up on the discourse at the end of the movement: "Hypocrite reader! –my double! –my brother!" (86).

These words usher the beginning of the second movement. Octavarium kicks in with the whole band in a funky, wandering groove that changes the scene from the protagonist's testimony of his non-conformist tendencies to a scene at a doctor's office. The protagonist asks the doctor to cure him "from a state of catatonic sleep", but in the end, the doctor provides no cure for him, despite his pleas for assistance: "Medicate me […] / can't you stop what's happening?"

Eliot changes his piece into a narrative at this point too, depicting at first a surreal scene with a woman who seems to be the speaker's significant other. She asks the narrator questions he cannot answer, eventually growing frustrated with his silence: "Do / You know nothing? Do you see nothing? Do you remember / Nothing?" (37). The scene then changes to an almost comical conversation between two housewives concerning one of the women's husbands returning from the military, and outlining the social expectancies of such a return: "he wants a good time / And if you don't give it him, there's others will" (39). Like Dream Theater's plea to the doctor, Eliot uses these and other situations as commentary on the social expectations people are burdened with.

Both artists go deeper into the heart of their message of entrapment in the third and fourth movements. At the end of Octavarium's second movement, the optimistic synthesizer lead kicks in, and the whole band intensifies as the piece increases tempo. This optimistic segment eventually darkens into the third movement's sinister wave of virtuosic, instrumental fury, which finally reaches a plateau as the vocalist begins the verses of the third movement. These verses are packed with references to Dream Theater's musical influences, which get interrupted by a refrain that narrates the band's entrapment in the octavarium (here, the term expresses the unavoidable influence of other musicians on their personal octavarium, their immersion in their life of music). The sentiment of this movement is culminated in the lines, "scream without a sound […] / stumbling all around / only to find I've come full circle".

The instrumental insanity resumes, as carefully orchestrated musical nonsense leads to the fourth movement, where the dangers of the Octavarium are expressed: "Tortured insanity, a smothering hell / try to escape but to no avail". The threat of entrapment makes itself universal with the lines, "When you finally start living, it becomes too late", and the threat turns into reality with the barked words, "Trapped inside this Octavarium".

Just as Dream Theater intensifies in these third and fourth movements, Eliot begins his third movement, called "The Fire Sermon", in which dark, often revolting images (like "A rat crept […] dragging its slimy belly on the bank") (41) give the reader a similar sense of danger. Although T. S. Eliot's constant literary allusion occurs throughout his piece, its use in this movement bears similarity to the allusory technique used by Dream Theater to describe their "full circle". In Eliot's fourth movement, he makes the threat of the wasteland a reality with his passage on the death of Phlebas, who dies by drowning. Phlebas' death is peculiar because he died at the hand of water, the object of desire of wanderers in the wasteland.

The pieces conclude in their fifth movements. The desert imagery becomes more prevalent in Eliot's narrative of wanderers in the geographical waste land. The narrator remarks, "If there were water we should stop and drink / Amongst the rock one cannot stop or think" and goes on to say of the wasteland, "Here one can neither stand nor lie nor sit" (47), relaying that the symbolic desolation stems from the absence of free will. The poem then takes a turn for optimism when a rain begins. This rain proves to be harmful, however, as cities are told to have disintegrated beneath it: "London Bridge is falling down falling down falling down," "the Prince of Aquitaine of the ruined tower" (51, 91). The crumbling of the cities of those who have conformed proclaims the wasteland as the victor in humanity's struggle against it.

Dream Theater's octavarium seems to come out on top at the end of their piece as well. The narrator admits to its triumph in the final movement by stating the phenomena's effects as fact, saying, "We move in circles […] / A perfect sphere, colliding with our fate / the story ends where it began."

The simultaneous defeat of humanity in both pieces at the hands of the octavarium and the wasteland echo each other in one last respect: their endings. After each piece's emotional surrender to the powers that be, they fade into a heartbeat: in "Octavarium," a throbbing, electronic pulse of the ending note fades the piece into silence, and in "The Waste Land," a repeated Sanskrit word ("Shantih", which means "the peace that passeth understanding") gives the poem a fade-out effect.

"Octavarium" and "The Waste Land" utilize impressionistic techniques to solidify abstract concepts in their audience's minds. Although "Octavarium" features very sophisticated composition and theme development, "The Waste Land" may more easily be interpreted as "high art" than the output of a metal band. As a Rhapsody.com music critic states,

"Dream Theater's 2005 release, their tenth full-length since the group formed in the mid-1980s, may boil down to synth-heavy, 12-sided-dice nerd metal, but that's not the worst thing in the world. There's always ritual murder, and you have to listen to something on the way to Laser Tag" (McGuirk 1).

Despite the conflict between progressive rock sympathizers and those with no taste, the pieces, for those who can appreciate both, are like-minded works that function as appeals to resist conformity aimed at the masses that consume them.



Works Cited

Dream Theater. "Octavarium." Octavarium. Atlantic, 2005.

"Eliot Publishes The Waste Land, 1922." DISCovering World History. Online ed. Detroit: Gale, 2003. Discovering Collection. Gale. Kirksville Sr High School. 14 Feb. 2008 <http://find.galegroup.com/>.

Eliot, T. S. "The Waste Land" and other Poems. Ed. Helen Vendler New York: Penguin, 1998.

McGuirk, Mike. Free Music: Octavarium by Dream Theater. Residence. 23 February 2008 <http://www .rhapsody.com/dreamtheater/octavarium>.

"Octavarium." Wikipedia. 21 February 2008. Residence. 23 February 2008. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Octavarium>

Perkins, David. "T. S. Eliot's The Waste Land: The Chief Example of Modernist Poetry." American Modernism. Ed. Scott Barbour. San Diego: Greenhaven, 2000. 72-81.




-------------



Replies:
Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 19:09
Was this just for fun? For class??

-------------





Posted By: mothershabooboo
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 21:59
Not bad my friend. Not bad at all. May I suggest next time to format it going through one work and then the other instead of at the same time? Just a thought. Other then that it was brilliant.


Posted By: Inverted
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 23:42
Good work, I hope that you got an A (if this was, indeed, for class). From this one essay, it is clear that you have a strong style and passion for writing. I encourage you to continue along in your scholarly jaunts. I know that this might be difficult, but when writing a similar essay in the future, I would include a bit more about what the music itself is doing. Furthermore, I would try to continue the girlfriend motif throughout the entire essay, and not just drop it.

Either way, excellent work. What level class is this?


-------------
Prog... It's good.


Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 02 2008 at 11:50
Oh my God!

Cheers, thumbs up, hail, \m/ Ò_Ó \m/, and all the possible salutations to you my good sir!


Posted By: Paulieg
Date Posted: March 08 2008 at 09:03
you suck


Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: March 08 2008 at 11:32
That was a great essay. You have a really good analysis and you apply each work to the other very well.

-------------
<font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]



Posted By: docsolar
Date Posted: March 09 2008 at 17:01
This essay was written for my high school English class (I'm a senior in HS)




-------------


Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: September 25 2008 at 16:48
Docsolar i have  read your essay and i liket it a lot, in fact i have read the Genesis Chapter and Verse book (you must have to read) and as far as i remember, some Genesis members, especially Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford are influence in the T.S. Eliot poem, when they along with Collins and Hackett wrote W and W.
 
Good essay!


-------------






Posted By: TRIFIVE5000
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 17:50

Dream Theater is an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States - American http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_metal - progressive metal band formed in 1985 under the name "Majesty" by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Myung - John Myung , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Petrucci - John Petrucci and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Portnoy - Mike Portnoy while they attended http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berklee_College_of_Music - Berklee College of Music in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston - Boston , before they dropped out to support the band. Though a number of lineup changes followed, the three original members remain today along with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_LaBrie - James LaBrie and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Rudess - Jordan Rudess .

Dream Theater has become a successful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock - progressive rock band, despite the drop in popularity of the genre since the mid-1970s. Although the band has had a few successful hits (notably " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pull_Me_Under - Pull Me Under " in the early 1990s, which received extensive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTV - MTV rotation), they have mostly stayed underground for their career, feeding off support from their fans.

The band is well known for the technical proficiency of its instrumentalists, who have won many awards from music instruction magazines. Dream Theater's members have collaborated with many other notable musicians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitarist - Guitarist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Petrucci - John Petrucci has been named as the third player on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G3_%28tour%29 - G3 tour six times, more than any other invited guitarist, following in the footsteps of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Johnson - Eric Johnson , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fripp - Robert Fripp , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yngwie_Malmsteen - Yngwie Malmsteen .

The band's highest selling album is the gold selling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Images_and_Words - Images and Words (1992), which reached #61 on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_200 - Billboard 200 charts. Both the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994 - 1994 release http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awake_%28Dream_Theater_album%29 - Awake and their http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002 - 2002 release http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Degrees_of_Inner_Turbulence - Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence also entered the charts at #32 and #46 respectively and received mostly positive reviews. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence also led to Dream Theater becoming the initial band reviewed in the Music Section of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entertainment_Weekly - Entertainment Weekly during its opening week of release, despite the magazine generally preferring more mainstream music. In 2007, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_Chaos - Systematic Chaos entered US Billboard 200 at #19 Dream Theater has sold over two million albums in the U.S and over 8 million albums and DVDs worldwide.

Formation (1985)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dream_theater_in_1985.jpg">Founding%20members%20%28from%20left%20to%20right%29%20John%20Myung,%20Mike%20Portnoy,%20and%20John%20Petrucci%20in%201985.
Founding members (from left to right) John Myung, Mike Portnoy, and John Petrucci in 1985.

Dream Theater was formed in September 1985 when guitarist John Petrucci and bassist John Myung decided to form a band in their spare time while studying at the Berklee College of Music. The pair came across drummer Mike Portnoy in one of Berklee's rehearsal rooms, where he was asked to join the band. The trio started off by covering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Maiden_%28band%29 - Iron Maiden and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_%28band%29 - Rush songs in the rehearsal rooms at Berklee.

Myung, Petrucci, and Portnoy settled on the name Majesty for their newly formed group. According to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Score_%28album%29 - The Score So Far… documentary, they were waiting in line for tickets to a Rush concert at the Berklee Performance Center while listening to the band on a boom box. Portnoy commented that the ending of the song " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastille_Day - Bastille Day " (from the album http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caress_of_Steel - Caress of Steel ) sounded "majestic." It was then decided that Majesty would be the band's name

The trio then set out to fill the remaining positions in the group. Petrucci asked his high school band-mate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Moore - Kevin Moore to play keyboards. After accepting the position, another friend from home, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Collins_%28singer%29 - Chris Collins , was recruited as lead vocalist after band members heard him sing a cover of "Queen of the Reich" by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queensr%C3%BFche - Queensrÿche During this time, Portnoy, Petrucci and Myung's hectic schedules forced them to abandon their studies to concentrate on their music, as they did not feel they could learn more in College. Moore also left his college, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_University_of_New_York_at_Fredonia - SUNY Fredonia , to concentrate on the band.



-------------
Living on a lighted stage
Approaches the unreal
For those who think and feel
In touch with some reality
Beyond the gilded cage!


Posted By: PetrucciPal
Date Posted: December 26 2008 at 19:38
This was really good! Gah, your girlfriend annoys me. lol some girls just don't understand the AMAZINGNESS of prog rock, and even Dream Theater. But other girls [like mahself] are completely in love with the music and can't seem to get enough of it. lol hope you got an A  ^_^

-------------
For the <3 of John Petrucci!


Posted By: 00ubermensch
Date Posted: June 01 2010 at 14:10

Great essay man- what assignment were you responding to? I wish my essay prompts were like this.



Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 01 2010 at 14:39
I once wrote one comparing The Waste Land to Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon.

-------------
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays


Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: June 01 2010 at 18:11
Interesting essay Thumbs Up

Well, I think you've imposed a (superfluous) conceptual unity on the Wasteland and also simplified the ideas a bit, particularly missing the ideas of hope/relief in the conclusion (hence the 'Shantih shantih shantih') - it's not exactly the 'and this is the way the world ends' of The Hollow Men, which is a truly pessimistic poem. I was reading a book on Four Quartets lately in which Eliot was quoted to have said that he didn't really worry about whether he understood everything when writing The Waste Land.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 15:28
Hi,
 
Quote
...

Octavarium proceeds in its first movement to introduce lyrics about the will to take a non-conformist stance toward social norms. The first words, sung over only a strumming acoustic guitar, emerge: "I never wanted to become someone like him so secure / Content to live each day just like the last." The lyrics first give a narrative of the protagonist's decision to pursue the life that is right for him before they tell of his subsequent desire to be like everyone else: "So suddenly / the only thing / I wanted / To become / To be someone just like him".

...
 
I think this is incorrect ... and the paragraph is trying to make a comment about "non-conformist" ... and the quote you give is ... the opposite, or suggesting the opposite ... "to be just like him" ... which is NOT (usually) a non-conformist stand in any way.


-------------
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 15:47
Originally posted by docsolar docsolar wrote:

This essay was written for my high school English class (I'm a senior in HS)

 
And a damn good job ... albeit I think that TS was writing more about the wasteland left behind the world war than he was about the theme of non-conformity, which is all that is left, when all else is dead and gone ... there is no "society" to conform to ... which is the point that is kinda missed all along.
 
TS's work, is not the easiest thing to discuss, and it is really easy to get lost in the generics of a lot of academic terminology that is not very good any more, and tends to dilute the strength of the work altogether ... no one writes because it is a symbol of the degeneration of the social conformity to ideals ... you write because there is something that you don't like that everyone does in your midst ... and that -- eventually -- gets lumped into some fuel for a fire to supposedly mean this and/or that ... and in general, that is 'AFTER" the fact, not during, or with (even!) the person that created it off their vision.
 
I like DT's work, on this one, even if some don't ... and many times, because they don't! ... why? ... because it takes guts, determination and a very special desire, to even consider writing and doing something like that ... and the band deserves the credit for doing it ... but how to make sense of it, and help us not get lost is another story ... and I'm not sure they need to slap us with a "meaning" ... since we're gonna develop our own anyway!
 
If this was a college paper, you would get nailed for the generalities, btw ... be aware of that.
 
Now let's see if you can re-write this, after all that ... this is good enough to be a rough draft for a senior in college!


-------------
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 16:02
I remember this essay which goes back as far as 2008 and I did not hear what the final outcome was. On a High School level, It perhaps deserves an A or at the least a B+ for the way it justifies the two texts as compared to one another and the command of the English language. I dont know what the criteria was but I assume that he clarifies the question well, as a stimulus, and it appears that the whole essay is his own work. If this were for college at the best i would give it a B, if it were for Uni it would not even get that. It needs more academic research.
 
One thing I would not do and that is use Wikipedia. It is an unreliable source and unprofessional. In fat I boycot Wikipedia for my students. If they need to use it I always tell them to use one more reliable source to back up and support their argument. The problem with Wikipedia is that it is written by anyone, rather than scholars who have some kind of research skills and the academic backing to support their ideas Wikipedia is easier for students so they use it but I would not pass an essay based solely on it. Thankfully the essay in question here is well supported with reliable sources and the in text references are well used and especially the quotes used give a powerful persuasive argument.  


-------------


Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 17:00
Originally posted by docsolar docsolar wrote:

This essay was written for my high school English class (I'm a senior in HS)


Very good work man!


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 18:55
Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:

One thing I would not do and that is use Wikipedia. It is an unreliable source and unprofessional. In fat I boycot Wikipedia for my students. If they need to use it I always tell them to use one more reliable source to back up and support their argument. The problem with Wikipedia is that it is written by anyone, rather than scholars who have some kind of research skills and the academic backing to support their ideas Wikipedia is easier for students so they use it but I would not pass an essay based solely on it. Thankfully the essay in question here is well supported with reliable sources and the in text references are well used and especially the quotes used give a powerful persuasive argument.  
 
The history is usually ok and the listings are usually ok ... but the write ups are far short, and one of the main reasons why I really think that we should "revamp" as much of our information here on PA, why ... because we are showing how useless the site can be in giving someone any kind of information on a scene, or an idea, or an artist.
 
Our information, is not good enough, and sometimes, it is ... LAZY. And when not lazy, it is not willing or capable of asking more meaningful questions in order to help raise the impression that our site can make ... and with all due respect, Wiki, does list links in the bottom, and in general you can check many of them ... but I still like the one calling Popol Vuh a Norwegian band!
 
It really says it all ... but we do the same thing here by spending too much time trashing/commenting/trolling in the board, instead of helping fix things ... but writing reviews of singles and EP's? I have to ask mom about that! And ... ohh, that was the Japanese single, not the American single!
 
When it comes to terminology and the use of it, I agree that it is not a good place, and I would not exactly rely on it, but then ... I can read a whole lot more about Incredible String Band on Wiki, than I ever will on PA (except one thread -- and even then it is not more complete as it could, and should -- because the writer is not aware of the theater side of things!)  ... because we have not taken the time, dedication, or make use of the folks that have the interest to help make a lot of artists more interesting and important ... up to and including ... the interviews that Toro does, which are ... unreal ... beyond description! But, NEVER quoted, or used in the writeups by any reviewer or person writing on this board! ... so how do you expect it to be better?
 
I can already see, and hear the krautrock folks upset at what I have written, which is what I have been saying for all the time I have been here ... but it has been ignored, and in many cases, folks saying that it's sh*t, and just me whining! But it tells you that the real interest to make it better is either totally scattered, or simply not there ... but passing up having that person as a part of a team? ... I'm blind ... I never see talent or abilities or knowledge ... and writing about something progressive? ... not likely! But my favorite solo and keyboard player ... ALL OVER IT BABY! ... what does that tell you? ... all of a sudden, Wiki has more credibility!


-------------
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: March 05 2011 at 01:25
""" YOU are right. It has merits but overall it is disallowed as a resource in most academic circles, including my own classes. Wiki is Icky. 

-------------


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 16:28
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I once wrote one comparing The Waste Land to Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon.
 
Ep ... we don't talk about those days a whole lot anymore ... yeah ... I remember all the colors ... and not knowing what day of the wek it was ...
 
Yeah ... waste land indeed!


-------------
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 12 2012 at 11:22
Hi,
 
You know, as I was checking this one out again, a thought entered my mind, and it was the famous line from the Prufrock song ... and the women come and go thinking of michelangelo ... and how so much of the stuff posted here on this board is just like that, and might even have a lot in common with Wasteland. All of Elliott is very Zen ... and this board is nowhere near most Zen with one exception ... it's open-ness to all posting and comments, even in the fun and whatever section.
 
I've always tried to keep the slopping and the nothing posting down to the minimum ... but seeing a band, any band ... that has done some reading, studying and has some appreciation for some of the literary works, yeah yeah ... some are over rated and all that ... but that's like thinking that rock music is any better progenitor of literary marks and works through our lifetimes ... and our history has been that the majority of it has been mostly commercial music and not enough of it has a whole lot of literary/artistic value to make it more valuable or interesting. But that's also like saying that no one else did anything ... which we know is not true and all of a sudden something else shows up we did not notice or take into account.
 
DSOTM, like some other works by PF, only show their level of education in school as much as a whole lot of others in Canterbury, and also how little education/schooling a lot of other London/NY?Paris?SF/LA scenes that became famous simply because of the numbers in those cities and what they sold, rather than any defined "value" otherwise. It also shows some of the humor that Robert Wyatt so lovingly displayed with his famous ABC ... which really was a retort to the high class snobs that were in front of his band (same place as PF later in "Tonite We All Love in London" ... btw!) ... to which he gave us his opinion of that stuffed up rich snobs and class! But you and I do not have to sit here and discuss the literary content in Jim Morrison's lyrics ... which are way above and beyond the majority of any rock band out there ever.
 
I can appreciate Iggy Pop these days just fine, but what he was doing 40 years ago, was not music at all ... but it was a rebelliousness that stands up well against the stodgy and full of it classical music crowd ... so it's nice to see that huge difference, way before Sid V showed up. I'm not sure it makes for a Wasteland, any more than it does "women come and go" ... but in the end, it's hard to not think that the value of the human experience is lessened simply because it is not compared to a literary academic value, and I reject that on concept altogether ... for ALL human experience is valuable regardless. And thus one of my integral parts of definition of music and the arts. Yes, there are preferences, but those have nothing to do with the "source" or the "work" ... all of which is valid regardless of what ones background is.
 
I'm going to re-read Wasteland ... and then reply more on this ... but it seems to me that the women's line is so much more like the folks that listen to DSOTM and their like for the "music" and the "guitar" ... and I wanna see how many fingers you can bring up of those folks that even know the lyrics! Even I don't! That would suggest something else subliminal that you and I find attractive, but putting a name or word on it ... is probably impossible. But then, how many folks here have read much of anything other than the Wiki's version of the Cliff Notes ... with bad information and links on top of it! And that would make TS Elliott and any other artist, or wroter, a total chump when it comes to most folks these days ... as evidenced by some of the stuff shown here. And I'm sure that none of us wants to be thought of as "chumps" ... yet there it is ... I don't know why I like it, but I like it and that makes it progressive. Now I can use the cookie cutter ... jagged guitar and what not ... yeah ... yeah ... yeah ...


-------------
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 21 2012 at 11:11
Here we go Ep and Doc ... this might be hard, as my point of view if from the writer, not from the outside or the fan ... please remember that as it makes a difference on what one thinks ... what the writer (or musician) sees is NOT the same thing that the audience thinks they see or understands ... you can draw conclusions and works on that theory, but it's not the same.
 
Ex: ... I wrote a scene in one screen play, from the bird's eye point of view ... you walk into that room, and when you pass the door there is a glass with a flower and it is in need of water.
 
I wrote that because it was "what I saw" in my mind's eye when I went in with a camera in front of me ... not because I wrote it, because I didn't! Well, let me tell you the frustration I felt ... the class spent two hours discussing that "symbol of death"  ... which for me was more a "symbol of life" ... the moment needed some more watering, or some life to bring it further up ... just like you do your garden, so to speak ... which was the allusion I stated with, btw (screenplay is at the Library of Congress btw).
 
Now you see the problem ... someone is "dictating to me" what it means ... and later an honorary academic in Italy that wrote many things on my dad, read the screenplay ... and said to me in a nice letter ... "why are you using personal symbols instead of readily acceptable universal symbols?"   Now you have another issue that as a creative person you have to define for yourself ... are you going to do (and be) the person you see and understand, or some idealistic vision of something else ... that is illusory at best?
 
....
 
The one thing I can tell you about Pink Floyd up to "The Wall", is that it is extremelly well defined and composed ... sometimes a bit pointed, but it's very nature is not pushy and it is quite "reflective" in the earlier days (Syd doesn't count) ... and in many ways ... quite a stream of consciousness in both lyrics and music ... that helped create something that we thought was cool and we loved it.
 
So, there is no doubt, in my mind, that all "Wasteland" is, is just a reflection of someone that sits on a river shore in London and lets his mind flow ... and that flow takes him many places, some we can relate to and some we don't because we did not study so many classics and so deeply. Your mind flows and goes every where. One minute it is this, next minute that, next minute Greece, next minute, your wife (that part definitly about a woman, if not Vivienne), and the difference? .. he wrote it down. There is really no rhyme or reason ... he just wrote it.
 
For me, Dark Side of the Moon, side one ... is almost a complete reflection ... and some of it is seen in the movie that was shown with the light show ... and I always thought that this was the real piece about Syd Barrett, not the one that came to be later ... why? ... check this thinking out.
 
Breathe in the Air -- nice opening, and basically telling you ... stop, slow down, take a deep breath, enjoy it, or as we used to say in those days ... take a toke and enjoy it ...
 
The next part is easier ... you run/run/faster and then you take flight ... that is in the little movie as it takes off for the clouds ... and guess what Syd did? ... he flew for the stars (Astronomy Domine/Interstellar Overdrive/that one song about watching the plane land upside down) ... and we see him take off ... a bit scared, but taking off nonetheless.
 
So here comes the next part. I call it the "memory" ... because the original version of Greatest Gig in the Sky was a bunch of priests sermonizing over each other including Syb Barrett saying some of his famous lines ... so he was doing this from the sky, now that he is gone ... and "not afraid of dying" ... and later the version became something else that still makes it, because the nymphs take you away ... or the angels ... depending on how stone you are ---- hehehe!
 
The whole "story" of side one is all a non stop movie ... and very "stream of consciousness" in that it makes for a story that is surreal, if you block it out that way ... young man taking a breater, but it turns out he had a stoke, or a nervous this or that, ends in the hospital and dreams of getting away ... but while you do that your body and mind still fight it all ... (which we all do, btw!) ... and then sees something else from a distance ...
 
Side 2 of the album is interesting and "Money" does not exactly fit the story ... but the rest of the album does.
 
So yeah ... to give credit where it is due, DSOTM is the rock version of "Wasteland" done by a poet not named "Elliot" but named "Pink Floyd" ... and this is how I see a lot of that music that we ended up calling "progressive" ... I don't find KC's first any less important or poetic than this album ... and I think that this is the valuable "artistic" insight into the folks our age that we are not giving them credit for ... they are as good as those writers, poets, composers or painters of another time ... and this is a different time, that's all.
 
It is a good comparison. There was another thread somewhere in this board comparing "The Lamb" to Burroughs that is also very good, btw, but more difficult ... Burroughs is not an easy discussion for a board that likes "fans" ... and I'm a member of the Magic Theater! Now I have to give the kid some credit and go read the Octovarium again ... and see what he was getting at. I would still give the kid an A for effort ... specially in high school ... that's impressive!
 
We need reviewers and writers like him to help this music become more important than just another hit!


-------------
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 14 2012 at 12:33
Hi,
 
I'm working on DT's lyrics right now, btw


-------------
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: April 14 2012 at 12:36
oh god no

-------------


Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: April 14 2012 at 12:38
Lolozaurs.

-------------


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 14 2012 at 14:04
Hi,
 
(Part 1)
 
The work you did is exceptional. My first post was basically about reading these things from the inside ... I see a movie in my head and that is what I write and I do not do anything except translate that visual with a phenomenon called "words" that hopefully you can understand. TS's piece is the same thing, and I liken his piece to the same structure as our dreams ... ie, none! There is no logic ... things just happen ... and in many ways, I wonder if this is really what Dream Theater was hoping to accomplish, probably because they did not want to play the same hit 132 times in the next 132 shows they did ... your very dream nature, or mine, or theirs, is not that repetitive at all ... it changes, and it has its own rhyme and reason. Or as Jean Luc Godard used to say ... it has a behinning, middle and an end, not necessarily in that order! ... which often throws us off the path of "logic".
 
Assuming that any poem, or piece of music is "logical" is a nice idea ... but it tends to invade and not reflect how it was put together many more times thatn we care to admit. There are a lot of bands, specially many of the progressive ones that we love that got to where they did by experimenting and doing unusual things in order to arrive at the place they are now, or got to later. That experience, has a logic of its own, that you might or might not be able to reflect at all, or ever put words on.
 
The social comment is a good one, but also a request by the band that they needed to feel much more independent than what fans were asking them to do. Yesterdays pee and pooh is gone, andthat's that ... but fans don't like that ... you only go to see Eric Clapton because you want to hear Layla once again ... and he might be sick and tired of it, but you don't care! I wanted that piece, so the show stunk because he didn't play it. And there is no artist out there, regardless of who he is, that wants to be a doll/reflection of who he/she is ... and yeah, both you and I would be rather pist off at those fans and tell them to go buy something else. You don't have another choice. Or as one band did at one time. They stopped playing and requested that one person be removed before they continuted playing. When that person was removed and they started, they got a massive ovation! Including me!
 
One thing ... looking at the numbers this and that ... is always fun, but not necessary and more often than not takes away from a lot more enjoyment and information that some verysimilitude to something as cyclical and usable as the musical staff and its octaves. But it would be fun at that point to use one half note for each piece so that they total an X number and what not. For all we know, it was not intentional and they had 5 pieces ... but it turned out that way, and I really think this might have been the little bit of "fun" that Dream Theater decided to have to entertain themselves a bit from what otherwise could be a very intense set of rehearsals and work to get the lyrics and the music down, so they could actually perform it.
  
Lastly, for my own tastes, this not only shows the insane musical ability and talent in this band, but also that they read and study lots of other things, enough to have a better idea as to what they can, or want to do. I have not really given a listen to a lot more of their work, but I do say it all the time ... SCORE is a fabulous, amazing and insane thing ... and only a handful of musicians will EVER attempt that to the scale that this band did ... that alone places them above and beyond a lot of bands out there ... but again ... the fans are not interested in the "people" ... just the hits! Now you know how Eric Clapton sometimes feels! Very bad! ... when he's not allowed to be a person!
 
(Part 2 has more line detail)


-------------
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 14 2012 at 14:13
Hi,
 
(Part 2)
 
Quote
... As David Perkins, an English and American literature professor at Harvard writes of the "mad medley's" first fans, "admirers were challenged to account for their feeling of coherence in a poem without continuity of setting, style, speaking voice, or plot. The poem, they presently said, was organized like music" (Perkins 76).... ... The poem utilizes three main themes that reccur throughout the entire work to convey the concept of the wasteland: the theme of the "wasteland" itself (to represent the defeated, conformist state of humanity), the "water theme" (to represent salvation from the wasteland), and the metropolitan theme (to represent the masses who are stuck in the figurative wasteland). ...
 
I would probably revisit these three themes. The water theme is more about the constant change and movement that is is about anything else. Where that water goes, and what it does and what it eventually accomplishes, we do not know until we see the end of it. Thus, "salvation" is not necessarily true, or possible, if in the end, the river dumps itself in the Atlantic Ocean and kills all the fish when it falls off in those falls! (hehehe Amazon river!). The other two are basically ok, although I would be wary of stating something like that ...
 
Quote
...
... "Octavarium" deals with non-conformity to social norms with the lyrical symbol of the octavarium. The octavarium is a word which functions as a Latin neologism: "octave", meaning the concept of a musical octave, and "-arium", used to denote a place where something is held (Octavarium 1). The arrangement of notes on the eight-step musical scale has a bottom note, "1", and a top note, "8". The top "8" can be expressed as the "1" of a higher scale (the distance between 1 and 8 is called an octave), beginning the 8-step scale anew ...
... The lyrics first give a narrative of the protagonist's decision to pursue the life that is right for him before they tell of his subsequent desire to be like everyone else: "So suddenly / the only thing / I wanted / To become / To be someone just like him"....
... The protagonist asks the doctor to cure him "from a state of catatonic sleep", but in the end, the doctor provides no cure for him, despite his pleas for assistance: "Medicate me […] / can't you stop what's happening?"...
... Dream Theater's octavarium seems to come out on top at the end of their piece as well. The narrator admits to its triumph in the final movement by stating the phenomena's effects as fact, saying, "We move in circles […] / A perfect sphere, colliding with our fate / the story ends where it began." ...
 
Not sure this is quite right or correct. The narrator of the poem, comes back to the beginning, more in his mind, than in the poem itself ... his mind is not happy meandering on these things, and in the end ... it doesn't matter ... you go home, eat dinner, watch a little tv and then go to bed, get up in the morning and go to work, and so on ... the cyclical nature of the whole day is really the issue, and the poem, in essence does the samem thing, and regardless of what it says and does, in the end ... it still comes back to the same thing ... almost like ... back to the same spot and ready for another moment in time that might, or might not, be a part of the poem, or the piece of music in question.
 
Quote
... "Octavarium" and "The Waste Land" utilize impressionistic techniques to solidify abstract concepts in their audience's minds ...
 
There is a tendency to think that just because you and I think of something that it is "impressionistic" to everyone else. Not necessarily. I maybe simply telling you a story ... and if you can relate to the wording, you will follow it regardless of how I state it. But, it might appear that I am NOT telling you a story, and am merely doing observations on something or other, and there really is no story on that to discuss ... and the only thing that would "attract" you to that would be if I did something unusual with it, or you came up with a theory that this piece went alongside the silent "Jazz Singer" or "Rin Tin Tin" (just being silly for silly's sakes!) in moods and attitudes, and you might ... MIGHT ... think that it means more than what I meant or intended because you saw it as something else that relates to your experience, not mine!
 
The use of the term is also ... dangerous, in some ways because the movement in the arts that caused that also suggested a very slanted and distorted view of reality, which in both of these cases and pieces that you are discussing is NOT the issue whatsoever.
 
Quote
... Despite the conflict between progressive rock sympathizers and those with no taste, the pieces, for those who can appreciate both, are like-minded works that function as appeals to resist conformity aimed at the masses that consume them ...
 
And this is very tough, because there is no artist, musician or painter out there that is trying to not be himself/herself with their very own expression and ability. In the end, there is a bit of the ho-hum attitude that it can all be reduced to A, or B, or C#, or F, or Gm and so on ... and for some people the music itself is "not alive", because they are seeing only the notes, and this could almost be considered a criticism of a lot of music schools that tend to evaluate music based on standards that have been there before --- instead of working to understand the "literature" and the "feeling" behind it that defines it as music in the first place. As I like to say, it's not about the "notes" as much as it is what these folks feel and wish to represent with their way of playing music and expressing themselves ...
 
The hard part, for a "public" place like this one is the last line of what you wrote. " that function as appeals to resist conformity aimed at the masses that consume them." ... and this is the same cyclical thing that the poem and the music talk about ... that is very difficult to get over and around. IF all you know is a top ten, you end up "conditioned" by it, and to it, and bound by its "conventions" and "styles" ... the end result of that is that you will eventually get bored because it's always the same thing, and it is human nature to give that up as soon as you get to that boredom stage. This is one of the main reasons why so much popular music comes and goes ... because too much of it is strictly attempting to wipe your thirst for "something" with a song, that more often than not has not a whole lot to say ... but you like it anyway. It is really important that we make a division and a call here ... that we not spend our time "judging" the very folks that like our work and want to buy it. However, as the saying goes, it is the artist's prorogative to make the statement, and this is the part that is difficult for "fans" and one of the reasons why some folks tend to prefer earlier works by this band, not a work that is so well defined BEYOND a simple song structure, meanign that the other stuff is easier to understand and relate to ... whereas this one is ... not eminently logical and easy to get!
 
Goodness ... I haven't written a "paper" in years ... good work. This was fun.
 
Next assignment please!


-------------
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 08:00
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


Next assignment please!

How about Zappa's Joe's Garage and the Twilight book series?


-------------


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 22 2012 at 22:34
Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


Next assignment please!

How about Zappa's Joe's Garage and the Twilight book series?

Not much of a connection there I'm sure ... Frank had enough vampires around him from record companies to some fans ... that he made many efforts to get rid of more than once!


-------------
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd. - http://www.webwiz.co.uk