Grateful Dead?
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Topic: Grateful Dead?
Posted By: 46and2
Subject: Grateful Dead?
Date Posted: December 31 2007 at 00:19
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I think i remember seeing a thread a while ago about how the dead wasn't 'progressive', but after hearing a pretty decent trajectory of their music (about a 3 hour show from the years 68 - 91), some of their stuff is just full blown psychedelic jamming. I know they had their ups and downs, given that they toured for almost 30 years straight, but i just wanted to hear people's thoughts on this band. also, if some of the dead's jams are to shaky for you, their is a 'cover' band called dark star orchestra who cover entire concerts setlist and change their equipment depending on the era they are covering. They honestly take the deads music to an entire new technical level. ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 31 2007 at 00:31
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as much as I love Jefferson Airplane.. they should have never been included here. As I much as I hate saying this.. because good music does not equal prog... since JA is here... no reason in the world other than 'sterotypes' and labels.. why the Dead shouldn't. in fact neither should be here... but can't have one.. and not the other. In fact.. it can be argued that the Dead were in fact more progressive.. than JA. wrong place for this thread by the way.... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: 46and2
Date Posted: December 31 2007 at 01:08
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sorry, wher should i have put this topic?
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Posted By: Erpland316
Date Posted: December 31 2007 at 01:55
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I know they probably dont get a lot of recognition around these parts but myself being a once antideadhead was completely turned around by the awesome sound of their music. Their sheer stability to remain a band for that long and never changing their sound due to the times is quite rare. For those are interested try: Blues for Allah, Europle 1972, Anthem of the Sun. Jerry Garcia (as well as the whole band) is/are quite amazing musicians. ------------- "Science is all metaphor"-Timothy Leary [IMG]http://freespace.virgin.net/martin.jones10/amonpic.jpg">[IMG]http://imagegen.last.fm/red/artists/Yeti316.gif"> |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: December 31 2007 at 02:41
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The dead are great at psychedelic jamming. I wouldn't call that prog, though. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: December 31 2007 at 07:47
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well, space/psychedelic is one sub-genre of prog
-------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: December 31 2007 at 08:42
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I borrowed a dozen Dead LPs from a friend, I'd never heard them and she was a big fan. The only thing I liked was the artwork on the sleeves. ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: December 31 2007 at 09:01
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Let me throw my petty two cents into this, if I was to rate the early psych/jam bands and their influence on the development of progressive rock I would rate them in this order;
1 Hendrix 2 Cream 3 Dead 4 Soft Machine 5 Santana 6 Allmans I don't think the Airplane contributed as much as any of those artists. Keep in mind by "influence" I am not referring to level of skill, but how many people they reached and changed with their music. |
Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: December 31 2007 at 10:20
| The Grateful Dead can be a very frustrating band. Sometimes they're brilliant with their extended Psychedelic jamming (admitedly not always) or their Country excursions and then they'll go and play the most dreary Rock n' Roll cover version you ever could hear like Johnny B Goode. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: December 31 2007 at 10:28
| Thread moved to correct section |
Posted By: nightlamp
Date Posted: January 02 2008 at 15:07
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The Dead were pretty dope, although their live harmony vocals were incredibly inconsistent, at times atrocious-- I guess it all depended on the amount of drugs in the collective bloodstream or something. I like their live recordings from '73-'75 the most; I think this is mostly because of Mickey Hart's absence. The Rhythm Devils have done some great stuff over the years, but Kreutzmann's looser, jazzier drumming in that particular time period is really fantastic... |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: January 03 2008 at 02:56
While that is certainly true, there is a difference between the jam band approach and something like Hawkwind. In addition, that was not the focus of the Grateful Dead in the way that you would it expect it to be for a band to be included as part of the genre. ELP strayed into ragtime now and then, yet we don't classify them as a ragtime band.
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BaldJean wrote:Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 03 2008 at 03:23
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on a good night they were the best live rock act in the world |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: January 03 2008 at 11:43
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They must have had an influence on many psychadelic and krautrock bands early on, but I don't think it's worth it to add them here...even though IMO they make more sense than many of the bands in PR. Either way, one of the greatest live acts ever, as Atavachron said...maybe on the same plane as The Who, Allman Bros, Cream... ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 03 2008 at 12:16
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I think David hit the nail on the head... on a good night... much has been made that on two of the biggest stages of those years... they didn't live up to that reputation.. can't see them being held in the same regard as some you mentioned there Jimmy. Their fame is as much for the fans and scene around them as the goods they delivered.. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: January 03 2008 at 15:09
| ^Micky has hit the nail on the head, IMHO. The band are as famous for that 'Deadhead' following as their music. I have 'Live Dead', 'Workingman's Dead', 'American Beauty' and 'Blues For Allah'. Although they have some moments I really like, this lot were not great with melodies, IMHO. Musically, they are a bit draggy at times, too, IMHO. 'Blues For Allah' is my favourite of those albums; arguably the closest they ever came to prog (some say 'Terrapin Station' too) but even then, not enough to be included here, IMHO. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 03 2008 at 18:12
and you James have hit the nail on the head... draggy is the best description for it... the Deadheads were silly twits escaping reality.. but it was the perfect music for dropping in... firing up a J and tuning out to the sounds of a band noodling away... and if reality escaped you for a bit... no problem... by the time you focus back in on the music..you have no worries mate.. you haven't missed a damn thing.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: January 03 2008 at 22:06
IMO, the best versions of Dark Star, The Eleven, Morning Dew, Truckin'...are neck-in-neck with The Allmans at Fillmore East and The Who at Leeds and Isle of Wight. I'll agree that they had a tendency to drag at times, but I'm talking about their peaks...there's some good stuff on the Dicks' Picks series (IMO the version of Dark Star on Live/Dead isn't the best one). I do get the feeling that you had to "be there" to get the full experience (no drug reference intended ), moreso than many other bands that translated better to the live album format. The thing I enjoy most is that you can hear loooong improvs from the live recordings and then hear American Beauty where the songs couldn't be tighter and more to-the-point. ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: January 03 2008 at 22:09
(ahhh...you're probably far too coherent for that). I wish we had more bands like the Dead now, or I mean...more shows like Dead shows , seems like we could use a bit of dropping out these days------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: January 04 2008 at 06:14
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Still no respect at the PA for the good ol' Gratfeful Dead....the Airplane and Phish are in, but the band that is the template for both remain out? We've heard the arguements against inclusion, like those points bluntly laid out by Micky earlier in this thread....but how can we exlude a band that's been so influential to progressive rock?
You can feel their imprint on the Krautrock and Canterbury scenes; they were right there at the beginning of space rock/psychadelia - practically invented it for Gawd's sakes; Jerry Garcia was doing jazz-fusion stuff before the term even existed! They were doing 45 minute Coltrane-inspired, free form covers of "Louie, Louie" back in '64.....in the era of the two and a half minute single and the art house folk scene, these guys were kicking down barriers and taking music in unheard of tangents. They were doing things with feedback and electronic devices in 1965 that Klaus Schulze and his crew were "pioneering" in 1970....no respect, man, no respect.
But I've beaten at this door before and have been told the same old "no room for folk-country jam bands" excuse. All I'd like to do is open more people up to the Dead....a great American progressive rock band....Styx? Rush? Kansas? Recycled prog. The Dead are the real things! ------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 04 2008 at 10:32
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Hi Intruder, I don't enjoy listening to the Dead but they were definitley one of the first in areas like free-improv and jazz-rock fusion.
I also agree with you about recycled copy cat bands from the mid-70s, especially when you consider progressive rock was profitable for a few years there, and most of those bands went pop when those profits dried up. I would be careful about naming specific bands though, because it will get those band's fan-boys out of the closet and the whole conversation will be de-railed. I still think there is some confusion about how progressive rock came to be. There are many who won't recognize that Hendrix was a huge influence on all the major originators of progressive rock, I have even heard him referred to as "just a blues artist". |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: January 04 2008 at 11:23
 but on topic: the early Dead/Warlocks stuff isn't well known by most people, or else they would be mentioned as one of the pioneering bands of the mid-sixties. Too bad there isn't any quality recordings of their formative material around the time Phil Lesh joined the band, supposedly they did some crazy things (like the avant-garde improvs and experimentations with feedback already mentioned) but I've never had the chance to hear it (...and that debut album sure isn't any indication as to where they'd been).------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 04 2008 at 16:12
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if you all feel strong enough about it.... talk to the admins about it... man alive... if they found JA to be worthy of PP... you all should have no problem showing the admins ..by making a case ..that they belong. As I said before... they are probably more worthy than JA... but not touching this since I think neither belong here. But I don't buy the idea that 'if x then y' doesn't apply... it does when talking about these kind of additions... if JA is here... then the Dead should be here... they were as influential.. if not more. My problem is simply that prog.. in those early days was an English.. an European movement... not as one that grew up on the left coast... this time and effort might be best served pushing the Velvet Underground who really did have an impact on prog... on those European artists. Extended jamming and psychedelia was exactly what prog was NOT about. The bare bones essense of prog is one thing. .and one thing only...structure. my two cents ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: January 04 2008 at 19:42
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Yeah, bad form - to make a point I belittled Styx, Rush and Kansas....I actually had "2112" on last night while cooking dinner and have been trying to track down the first Journey album ever since I sold my first copy a few years back. Sorry to offend, but such is my passion for the Dead. They were my first....you know, that gateway band that opens up all kids of doors. I've been a lurker on this site since its beginnings and have been introduced to so much great stuff. That's why I love the site....it opens eyes to bands/genres that had before been hidden. And I'd like to do the same with the Dead...it seems the fanbase is petrifiying into just what Micky mentioned....zoned out pothead music (nothing wrong with it if it's your thing). I'd love for Al DiMeola and Shakti McLaughlin fans to turn on to Jerry.....for Gong and Clearlight fans to see the kinship....for Ash Ra fans to freak out to one of those early Fillmore shows.
Now as for this, "The bare bones essense of prog is one thing. .and one thing only...structure." Well, I'm sure the majority would disagree with such a narrow view....and where would PA be if this were even remotely accurate? Amon Duul fans would disagee and, hell, so would Crismon fans (what the hell else were they doing with live shows in '69?)....to define prog as such would turn PA into a strictly symph and Italian prog site (and, though I love Genesis, I always wish they'd let Hackett loose during live shows...let him Jerry it up a bit....all those damn Genesis bootlegs I have sound exactly like the records, so I don't play 'em).
But, I hear you Marky....prog SEEMS to be a Brit/Euro thing, but where did those ideas come from? Free-jazz, maybe? Would the Stones/Beatles/Mayall be anywhere without Muddy Waters, Little Richard and Elmore James....the evolution is very clear and the Dead are right there at the heart. Still, I understand those who think the Dead don't belong.....they weren't ELP and the gap is obvious, but by turning over a few stones you'd see the connection....Emerson was highly influenced by modal jazz and that third wave movement, so was Jerry; Emerson saw his music as an electrified classical music fusion and Jerry understoon this dynamic as well (though he only dabbled in it in his later music with the Dead -Flood/Allah/Terrapin - but it always had its influence, if not so overt. I'm not trying to say that the Dead were a symophonic prog band, and if the site is solely for that type of music, then, yes, the Dead have not place here. But this site represents so much more....
BTW, did you ever hear get into side two of Jerry's first solo album? It could be mistaken for anyone from early Tangerine Dream to mid-70s Eno!
Sorry again for running down second generation American prog....but somehow I don't think Dennis DeYoung is losing any sleep over it. ------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 04 2008 at 19:59
well.... I'm going to bump an old Grateful Dead thread in the suggest new artists thread... have fun... you make good points... try to sell them to the admins for addition...and those who... won't agree with the idea of adding them. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: January 04 2008 at 20:37
What have you been smoking? Oh, wait, Deadhead. Enough said. ------------- 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 04 2008 at 20:58
he may be smoking something but he's also quite right I don't support their inclusion, but they were (barring Zappa as a solo artist) easily the most progressive U.S. rock band... |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: January 04 2008 at 23:38
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Haven't even scratched the surface when it comes to demonstrating the progressive nature of the Dead...it'd just take too long song....in concert they would cover numbers from Motown, trad folk and country, bop and post-bop jazz, gospel, Brit pop, jug band and bluegrass, blues, rockabilly....and then groove into "Space" by incorporating the whole stew into a forty minute improv. Progressive? Oh, yeah!
But, at heart, I don't really support their inclusion....I think they could only marginally be called prog rock, and only in the most literal sense of the term. Progressive, yes (in everything they ever did, even when they were covering Hank Williams tunes). Prog rock, probably not (they really didn't set out to make proggy albums.....though in the mid 70s they landed on it and moved on....it just didn't stick to them like the whole "psychadelic jazzy country-blues space rock" thing).
So, yeah, I understand why they're not here....but I just can't understand how Phish and the Airplane(man, I dig the Airplane, even their later boozy albums) are here and the Dead aren't....so I guess I AM for their inclusion....but I understand why they're not here....but I just can't understand how Phish and the Airplane...."wheel is turning and it can't slow down/can't go back and you can't stand still".
Now I'm going to dust off my copy of "Grand Illusion" and thrown it on the turntable, just to appease the Great Prog Spirit.
------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 00:48
*hopefully that made a litte sense....and now I'm confused to boot
 btw Micky, I forgot to say earlier, I hope that PA's first man and first lady had a good holiday season, hopefully '08 will be a good one, hang in there... ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 07:06
Where are the Grateful Dead influences in Pink Floyd's music? ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 07:14
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I think the Airplane got on here because a certain PA member campaigned very dilligently for their inclusion.
I think we all have an "x" and a "y" list, I know I do. There are certainly bands on here that I don't think belong and one's that should be added. Personally I'm more partial to bands that layed the groundwork for progressive rock to happen then bands that came a long later and copied an already established formula, but I try not to be too annoying about it out of respect for all the people who have put so much work into building this nice resource. |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 12:06
a lot of these bands had to have heard the acid tests and then Live/Dead, Anthem of the Sun, Aoxomoxoa. The live stuff was important for jam-based stuff and extending compostions, combining improv with compositions. But the studio albums were important too because The Dead were doing a lot of experimenting with recording techniques and sounds, etc. Albums like Dark Side of the Moon are known for the experimentation that bands like The Dead pioneered in the studio in the mid-late sixties. ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 15:03
I'm not sure if many (if any) UK musicians heard the acid tests, and I think Floyd's improvisations owe more to AMM than to the Dead. But, I'll give another listen to the Dead albums you've mentioned. ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 15:56
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Hey AB Negative, Who is AMM ? Probably someone I know but I am drawing a blank right now.
I would have thought Floyd's improvs would have been influenced by their regular gig mates; Soft Machine and Hendrix. Also maybe Vevet Underground or avant-garde composers. |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 21:47
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^that's probably true...I'm assuming there was a trickle down effect: bands like Soft Machine and definately Hendrix heard the Dead when they were doing something new and experimental...it's more about the novelty of long songs and weird effects than a direct compositional influence. ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 22:47
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I definitley agree with you, I don't listen to the Dead much, but they definitely deserve credit for being one of the first rock bands to really start expanding what a rock band could do.
Who knows who influenced who, due to the experimental nature of the times I'm sure a lot of people were willing to take some chances. I'm still trying to figure out who AMM is. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 04:12
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I think you're dancing around the really important question which is: is Jerry Garcia grateful now that he is dead?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 06:45
AMM was (and I think still is) a group playing totally improvised music. They played with the Floyd a couple of times (October 1966 and April 1967, both times with a Beatle in the audience). Their guitarist Keith Rowe's unconventional style was very influential on Syd Barrett's guitar playing (for example, using a Zippo lighter as a slide on See Emily Play).
------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 09:47
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Thanks for the info, I have books on Floyd and Soft Machine that probably mention them, seems like an interesting band that needs to be checked out. Does the AMM stand for anything?
There is a definite difference between Syd's sort of deconstuctionist approach to soloing than the more macho displays of jazz-rock technique that came from Ratledge and Hendrix. |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 11:00
It probably does but I've never been able to find out. ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: January 08 2008 at 15:30
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I've had another listen to Live/Dead, Anthem of the Sun and Aoxomoxoa. My opinion hasn't changed much. Live/Dead is the best of these three - Dark Star especially had a few interesting moments, and Feedback actually reminded me of AMM. I'll probably listen to Live/Dead again but there really wasn't anything on the other two albums that grabbed my attention. ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: nightlamp
Date Posted: January 08 2008 at 17:21
AMM stands for AMM; there's no documented explanation for those cryptic initials. I recall reading in an interview that the members of the group (Keith Rowe, Eddie Prevost, Lou Gare, Cornelius Cardew, John Tilbury) intentionally left the acronym undefined as a commentary of sorts on how the listener should approach the music. Two major influences on the group were John Cage and abstract expressionist art. Jackson Pollock's placement of his canvases on the floor directly influenced Rowe's "tabletop guitar" technique; the prepared piano techniques of Cage and others were among the catalysts for Rowe's experiments with preparing his guitar and using foreign objects to produce sound. Their early material is probably the best place to start; look for AMMusic or Live at the Crypt 1968. [/thread derail] |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 08 2008 at 19:49
| Yeah, now it sounds familiar. I have some Cardew stuff off of a radio show that probably included some AMM stuff. Back in the late 60s avant garde artists like Cardew would do gigs with experimental rock bands. There were also a few performers who had their feet in both worlds like Fred Frith and John Cale. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 09 2008 at 10:12
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The Dead has three albums which could be valid in PA had the "whole discography" policy not been in force. >> Wake Of The Flood, Blues For Allah and Terrapin Station.
C'm on micky, you were all for it
 if I rememlber it. And Jefferson Airplane is in proto-prog (mostly because they paved the way for many 70's traits by being "the first ones to "....) and dabbled in electronics back in 67, something that wouldn't fit the Dead. The two groups were vastly different, IMHO!! The Dead were definitely a jam band, something that only Casady and Kaukonen were friendly with in JA.
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |