Pity ratings
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43234
Printed Date: February 23 2025 at 13:47
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Topic: Pity ratings
Posted By: Asphalt
Subject: Pity ratings
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 12:06
The subject, I'm sure, got across in many other threads, I'm just not sure it was the main subject of any. A lot of times we see an album that's not really bad - not a masterpiece either - that has a pretty bad rating (2, up to 3 stars). We know that doesn't mean much, while at the same time we realise higher ratings may attract more poeple to giving it a shot. A moral dillema appears: do we stick to our standards and rate it 3 or at most 4 stars and argument it, or do we hit the 5 stars button just to help it a little bit, to correct the injustice that has been made? 
P.S.: I know the "ratings in your heart are the only ones that matter" rethoric, so try to come up with a more on-topic approach to the issue. P.P.S.: Also, what's with the 5 star ratings for prog-related albums?  Isn't it progressive archive in the end? No matter how much you love an album, if it's simply not prog, then don't act as if it is.
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Replies:
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 12:11
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Ratings are very personal. The only thing I believe is that 5-star ratings should be EXTREMELY rare. 5 stars should MEAN something. Too many dish them out like candy to album after album by their favorite group, that's what drives me nuts. But answering your question, no, I don't rate to correct the injustices of others as a rule, I rate what I really think.
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 12:22
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I will answer your second question first. I have already stated numerous times that no one will ever force me to give less than five stars to ANY album I consider a masterpiece. If we have PP and PR, then either we change the definition of 'masterpiece of progressive music' and so on and so forth, or people will have to be left free to rate those albums as they see fit. Personally, I would see any attempt to force me to do otherwise as an unacceptable imposition. Distorting the rating of an album just because it's not prog (or fully prog, as it is the case of many PP/PR albums) is not serious. Moreover, it is the review that should state clearly that the album in question is not prog or only partly so. As to your first question, when I still wrote reviews, I only gave five stars to the albums I felt deserved them - certainly not to 'help' correct any injustice. If I gave 5 stars to CTTE, it is because I deem it a masterpiece, not to counteract any 1-star reviews. In any case, I have never been obsessed by the Top 100 and ratings in general, and for me reviewing and rating an album was just something I did for my pleasure and for the site's sake. Anyway, whenever I read reviews, I try to get as many opinions as possible, and then decide on my own. I have bought, and enjoy quite a lot, albums that have a rather low rating on PA. Of course I find 5-star reviews intriguing, but that doesn't mean I depend on them slavishly. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 12:47
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With 16,242 album titles listed here at last check, what constitutes "rare" or "extremely rare" anyway? 1% would be 162 albums. Is that extremely rare enough for you? 16 albums? Can a masterpiece have any flaws at all? Why only 5 stars to deal with when the compiled ratings go to two decimal places? For what it's worth, I don't think I've handed out any 1 star ratings, because if it's that poor, I see no need to waste my time rating or reviewing it. Perhaps I am a little too generous handing out the 5 star ratings. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 12:51
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There's no point in rating an album higher than you think it deserves just to give it a shot. Sure, everyone has their own opinion and naturally there's going to be a lot of differences of opinion but the system would be worthless if albums were getting overrated just to give the band in question a chance. With regard to five star ratings for Prog related albums, if they're Prog enough to be on the site then they're Prog enough for a five star rating if they deserve it I would say. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 13:07
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I haven't done too many reviews yet, but I do my ratings based on the guidelines of the website. I agree that based on the website's current guidelines a prog-related album should not be given 5 stars as a prog rock masterpiece unless the reviewer feels that that album is a prog rock masterpiece. Unfortunately, based on other guidelines on this site that should mean that that band should be in a prog category and not the prog related category. The reviewer is entitled to have their difference of opinion with this site in regards to whether they feel a particular band qualifies as prog rock versus prog related.
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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 13:19
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When I start rating I'll be doing a rating on the genre it is in. Otherwise a prog-metal masterpiece won't be liked by anyone who dislikes metal. Basically I'll just do whatever I feel the album truly deserves.
My favorite albums all fall around the 4 mark. I don't have a huge care for the albums that are so highly rated, I do like them, but I don't set them above some of the other stuff that has crap ratings. |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 13:52
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I do get a kick out of seeing an album that has only a couple of ratings, go from a below three to over a four because of what i gave it. Having said that i have to be true to myself and give it what i think it deserves.It is frustrating though to see some of the low ratings certain records have.As for the ratings, i think we are bound to the rating system here,i have given about 10% of my reviews 5 stars.To me that's 4.6-5 stars. I'm comfortable with that.If i feel it's 9 out of 10 i give it 4 stars,and will usually mention it's 4.5 stars. If like on the Gnosis site we rated out of 15 stars,i don't know if i'd have one 15 star record.If it was out of 10 i would probably have maybe 5% of my reviews being a 10. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 14:26
Well. here I go. Prior to writing reviews for progarchives I had never been able to read or even write if you can believe it  . Whenever I write a review though, I try to remain within the confines of the guidelines set out by the site. For example, as much as I like Jan Akkerman`s Aranjuez collaboration with Claus Ogerman, following the progarchives guidelines I gave it a 3 whereas if I was being emotional I would have given it a solid 5. One album I recently awarded 5 stars to was Kostarev Group`s Live@InProg2003 because I truly thought it was a prog masterpiece and that guys/girls into bands like Crimson ,Gentle Giant or Bill Bruford`d solo material would glean something from it`s brilliance. Which reminds me, I was just reading some reviews in Jazz Times last night and they don`t even rate their reviews. Rather, it`s left up to the reader to decide whether or not she/he wants to check out the particular album being reviewed. I actually prefer this method but until someone changes the rating procedure here I`ll stick with it. ( notice the political correctness in this post ).  .------------- |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 15:53
Ignoring the sarcasm  , my only point is that 5-star ratings should be rare, as we are instructed by the people who let us be reviewers here. In my mind I consider 5-star albums to be in the top 5-10 percent bracket although quantifying things is only a general rule. Remember, 3 means GOOD, and 4 stars is an AWESOME, excellent, outstanding album. That covers most albums you love and consider great. 5 star ones have to bring much more to the table, something once-in-a-lifetime, exquisite, groundbreaking, etc...The bar should be very high as the pop-up warning from the Admins says when you click on 5. How do they put it? Something like, "not every album you love is a masterpiece" or something like that. It's an important distinction for users of the site that 5-stars not be over-used, so they know when they see 5 stars that it really means something special, rather than just another album that Reviewer "x" happens to like. This is my interpretation of what the site wants from us, maybe I'm wrong. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Slartibartfast wrote:Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 16:01
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I'm very liberal with myself when it comes to ratings. I go with what my heart and mind tells me. That's why I have even given 5 stars to prog-related albums: those may not be 100% prog, but they are 100% masterpieces for me, and that's enough. I don't sweat when I have to give an album a 5 even if it's not a favorite, and the same for the opposite (KD the best example). I think it's my way of understanding things. When something is utterly atrocious for me, I have to say it. Yes, even in atrocious albums there's effort behind them, but I'm no qualifying that, I'm not giving my opinion on how much the band members slept or not during the recording. I just can give opinions on what I KNOW FOR SURE, and that is....what I feel about the album.
I go with my feelings. No ligical formulas or rules of thumb here.  ------------- 
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Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 16:05
One thing to keep in mind is that while ProgArchives is an outstanding authority on progressive music, they are not the only authority. There are bands listed as "Prog-related" here that are considered legitimate progressive music elsewhere; and there are bands that have been added to prog families here that some do not believe are worthy of the label.
And in the end I'll rate an album any way I see fit, and so will most other reviewers. The genre label here is only an opinion, not indisputable fact
 .------------- "Peace is the only battle worth waging." Albert Camus |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 16:26
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If I feel a PR album is a masterpiece I will rate it with 5 stars but... If the album in my opinion deserves 4.5 stars, it will be rounded up to five stars if it's prog, or rounded down to 4, if it's not prog. However that is not entirely exclusive case, because sometimes I will act differently. I am guided with my feelings, too.
I'm not giving out 5 stars like candy to a band because that's my favourite group; that group is my favourite because so many their albums deserve five stars!!  |
Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 16:34
| To me, 3 Stars is not a bad rating at all - in fact, it is a very good one. Even 2 stars doesn't (usually) mean the product is bad per se. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 20:53
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again... the ratings themselves are eye candy... it is the
review that counts...I've given one star to albums I liked... and
if I could be bothered to review them..I'd give 5 stars to albums which
are simply crap and completely overrated on this site. What I
think is reflected in my reivew.... how the albums stacks up in the
pantheon of prog is how I rank them. So in a nutshell the
rankings I give them are useless.. which is why I have given as many as
4 'scores' in a single review. I don't care where the albums are
ranked at all. I love all my Battiato albums... but I'd be crazy
to give most of them more than 2 or 3 stars because simply most prog
fans... will HATE them... they simply are not for everyone.. and not
essential prog albums. If I give it 5 stars..and some fool buys
it based on that.... and gets an album with no melody... no instrument
but a piano playing varations of the same chord for 20 minutes...
they should revoke my reviewing licence. I love it... but
most others will not. Is that fair then.. to give the album 5
stars.. no.. it is not.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 19:35
If you really think that non prog (or prog related) album IS a masterpiece, why not give it a 5 star rating? It's very absurd, and not a serious thing consider the 'proggynes' and reflect it on the rating. After all, it's music, you ought to judge the album AS IT IS. A long time ago, I made a thread about this issue, but I can't find it actually doing search.
Also, by the way you posted the question, it seems like only Prog albums can get 5 star ratings.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Barla/?chartstyle=LastfmMyspace">  
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Posted By: FruMp
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 01:57
It is prog archives but prog related artists are part of prog archives. It doesn't matter if it isn't prog, if it's prog related and it's good then I'm not going to hesitate to give it 4 or 5 stars, in my eyes I'm not rating prog related albums or non-prog albums from prog artists on their progressiveness, I'm rating them on how good the music is and how much recognition it deserves and I think that is as good a position as any in rating these types of albums. ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 06:16
Well, since prog related and proto prog are officially not prog, then I don't have a problem disregarding the explicit definition of a five star album and giving it a fiver if it's worthy relative to the other albums in that sub-genre. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 06:40
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what about bashing proto-prog/prog related albums just because they don't agree with them being included in here? i am one of those opposed to most recent inclusions but i certainly don't do so... it's unacceptable for bands like Black Sabbath to have only one album above 4 stars... to us, metalheads, albums like Master Of Reality, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Vol 4, Heaven And Hell, Headless Cross and Tyr are higher than the sky... ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: Casartelli
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 08:55
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Long time before I signed up to PA I already had my own database with albums being rated from 0.5 to 5.0 (stepsize 0.5). Most typical translation:
0.5 - 1.5: 1*
2.0 - 2.5: 2*
3.0: 3*
3.5 - 4.0: 4*
4.5 - 5.0: 5*
So a halfstar typically gets rounded up if above 3.0 and rounded down if under 3.0. This is to even out the ratings a bit, because by far most ratings would be in the 2.5 - 3.5 range. Exceptions (with 3.5 as an example):
- if I feel the 3.5 is really closer to 3.0 than to 4.0, it gets a 3.0
- if I already have a lot of 4*-reviews of the band in question, a 3.5 would quicker become a 3*
- I like clarke2001's point. I'd like to broaden it a bit: if I'm really tied between 3* and 4* I would try and step outside myself and judge the record's general value, contingently its general 'progressive' value. However, that's really the last priority because...
1) I think ratings should reflect my opinion rather than some kind of generally accepted politically correct opinion
2) I won't generally add or subtract stars because a record's progressive value would be different from its musical value in any other sense: the band is present in our beloved archives and that's really the only prog-benchmark to me here.
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Posted By: Casartelli
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 09:04
In other words: a proper average rating reflects the value a group of prog listeners adds to it rather than the prog value a group of prog listeners adds to it, which is a subtle difference (I hope at least).
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 12:59
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As prog as this website is, I'm still a MUSIC fan first, PROG fan second.... So if a prog-related album is a true masterpiece for me (like Muse's Absolution) I will give it a 5. -------------
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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: November 09 2007 at 21:33
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If we had a 10 point system, I could see 10's being rare. But its really hard not to get all excited about albums you like with only 5 options. And I agree with Slarti, 1 star albums are usually hard and a waste of time to review. I have very few 1's left in my collection, they end up in the yard sale or the used bin at Rasputin records. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: FruMp
Date Posted: November 10 2007 at 01:32
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I think the star system is prefect as it's reflective of the fact that music is subjective and a precise rating for music can't feasibly be justified for that reason also it would promote nitpicking. A half-star system would be good but at this stage it would be far too hard to implement as there are way way too many reviews on the site for it to be feasible now, the star system as it is works perfectly IMO. -------------
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Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 12:13
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I would never rate an album here because of its 'progginess' as long as it is here, it is considered to be prog or related, thus, no fuss... if Powerslave is a masterpiece (which it is) I will give it 5 stars it's unfair to give it 3 or 4 stars because it may not be a 'masterpiece of prog music'... |