Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation

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Genesis Montreal

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41735
Printed Date: November 28 2024 at 03:53
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Topic: Genesis Montreal

Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Subject: Genesis Montreal
Date Posted: September 15 2007 at 11:50

They`re a symbol of excessive greed. And the sound was crap.

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Replies:

Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: September 15 2007 at 12:56

SO, WHY DID YOU GO TO SEE THEM??? Confused

Also, they didn't do it for the money. It's really clear they don't need it, don't you think so?
BTW, the critics of all the performances were very good! I'd give a lot to have the chance to see them!

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http://www.last.fm/user/Barla/?chartstyle=LastfmMyspace">

Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: September 15 2007 at 14:53

Because my friend got free tickets, my wife is out of town and I needed a good laugh last night. They are a pathetic band save for 3 albums which I actualy reviewed here. Check my reviews and you will see which albums I `m talking about.

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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 15 2007 at 20:56

Well seeing as one of your reviews is of a live album that is in effect a compilation album, that statement isnt all too clear. Wink

However I agree with your basic sentiment about the tour.

Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: September 16 2007 at 01:28

Why are you going to see a show if you don't like the group or their music ? You better stay at home. I saw people today at the prog.fest who was there yesterday at the Mtl Olympic Stadium. Everybody is agreed: it was a great show. 39,999 people liked this show and Vibration, you are the only one to have not like it.

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C'est la vie

Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: September 16 2007 at 06:14

So, the tour was not about money?

Why then did they charge £500 for front block tickets in the UK? £170 for the cheap seats??

Overheads? Why are their overheads larger than any other stadium band? Metallica didn't charge anything like that for their recent shows at Wembley Stadium. I saw REM two years ago for £40..

Not about money? mmm...

Posted By: activetopics
Date Posted: September 16 2007 at 21:56

Sell-outs :(

Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 10:46

Prog.Sylvie wrote:

Why are you going to see a show if you don't like the group or their music ? You better stay at home. I saw people today at the prog.fest who was there yesterday at the Mtl Olympic Stadium. Everybody is agreed: it was a great show. 39,999 people liked this show and Vibration, you are the only one to have not like it.

If you would have read down the whole thread you would have saw that I mentioned that I got

FREE TICKETS
And, if 39,999 people jumped off a cliff I don`t think I would be following them.

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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 11:11

Tony R wrote:

Well seeing as one of your reviews is of a live album that is in effect a compilation album, that statement isnt all too clear. Wink

However I agree with your basic sentiment about the tour.

Then I`ll clear it up. The Genesis live album from `73 is all you need from the band`s early period. I had written a review but wasn`t satified with it and deleted it and just haven`t gotten around to rewriting it.

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Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 11:27

Even if you had free ticket, you should have stay home, this way we would have avoyed all your negative impressions ( we don't need it), and you would not have spend some money on beer, and transportation...

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C'est la vie

Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 11:46

Prog.Sylvie wrote:

We snuck the bottle of scotch in and we took the Metro which costs only $2.75 each way which doesn`t break my bank. By the way, where`s your big review on this Montréal Prog Whatever you promised?

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Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 14:39

I am working also. I arrived at home at 1 a.m on monday morning, then I went back down town early the next morning in the court house. I have a motion to plead for a client. Let me check for the pictures and let me get back on earth a little before I write something about the prog.fest.

But don't you dare writing something negative about this festival`while you were not there ( I don't think so...).

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C'est la vie

Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 14:40

By the way, you can stay home drinking some scotch with your friends at home and listening to Genesis early record...

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C'est la vie

Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 14:55

Prog.Sylvie wrote:

By the way, you can stay home drinking some scotch with your friends at home and listening to Genesis early record...

I drink scotch with my dogs mostly.We were going to bring them to the Genesis concert too but decided against it because we didn`t think they would be allowed in without tickets.

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Posted By: Lucent
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 17:50

Notice how Phil Collins brutally raped Genesis's sound.

Anyone care to disagree?

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 18:05

Vibrationbaby wrote:

If you would have read down the whole thread you would have saw that I mentioned that I got

FREE TICKETS
And, if 39,999 people jumped off a cliff I don`t think I would be following them.

How about if you had free tickets & were looking for a laugh ? Wink

But again, as some here have noted, why bother going to a show that you know (or should know) you're going to hate. TO make a classic rock comparison - it's like going to see AC/DC & complain about how Brian Johnson is the ruin of the group. Now I'm assuming that you are conscious enough to realize what was to be played at said show. As prog.Sylvie mentions, their tour has been well reviewed, so their setlist (which has been posted here for various shows) is not a secret, and the composition of the group is well known too. So unless you had reason to believe that Pete & Stevie were going to show up, I wonder if you have a masochistic bent. In which case, why not take it out on yourself by becoming a Maple Leaf fan LOL

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 18:11

Lucent wrote:

Notice how Phil Collins brutally raped Genesis's sound.

Anyone care to disagree?

So far, from the reviews & the ticket sales, I would guess that most of the attendees would disagree.
P.S. Ever get disgusted when people throw around terms like Nazi when describing things they diagree with. It really just belittles their arguement. Re : Genesis, and this is something that I stated many times in the interminable Peter Vs Phil polls & threads - did you know that Phil has been a member of the group for a long time, stretching back to their so-called classic "prog" period. And that Mike Rutherford & Tony Banks do not seem put out by their band member's performance as you are. Of course, your opinion is yours to hold. But I figure part of it is due to a grudge you hold because the group continued to evolve in a way that you disapprove. Again, your opinion , and yours to hold. But the members of a musical group have the freedom to play what & how they please. After all, they have to play the music. And any self-respecting artist does it for that reason only.

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: Teh_Slippermenz
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 19:35

activetopics wrote:

Sell-outs. :(

Wrong. I wonder why people keep accusing them of being sell-outs. They DID NOT "sell-out". It was, as Phil Collins has said, just them growing up, listening to different things. Tony Banks is most likely the true controller of Genesis. If he didn't like what Phil wrote, he would have told him so, and Tony Banks would have decided what genre they would be in after Steve Hackett left. Steve's departure probably influenced them greatly in their change in sound, as I'm sure they felt that Steve's technique was one of the driving forces of their days with Peter Gabriel. (Anthony Phillips worked much in the same way I would suppose, not to mention he was the band's main songwriter. Anthony's departure meant they lost their creative drive, so they decided to try and take up the songwriting theirselves)

Anyway, I suppose my point is, they didn't sell out, they decided they were tired of progressive rock and wanted to do something different, and so they went with pop. And also: remember the planned Duke suite for the "Duke" album? Well, they scrapped it because they were worried that it would be compared to SUPPER'S READY. See, they wanted to get AWAY from The Musical Box, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, etc. etc. etc. So they changed their sound.

Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 09:36

I don't get what all the cries against Genesis 'selling out' are about. Led Zeppelin's one-off charity gig that is randomly allotted (25 million people have allegedly applied, too!) still costs £125, no matter what seat you end up with. That is a lot less fair, IMHO. At least you stood a better chance of getting a ticket with Genesis, for charity or not. And is it any more expensive than the similar non-charity gigs of other reformed acts like, say, The Police, Cream, Van Halen or even warhorses like The Rolling Stones?

I saw one of the gigs broadcast live to a UK cinema and loved it. For me, 'Mama', 'Domino' and 'Home By The Sea', which are (shock! horror!) 80s tracks were amongst the highlights of the set. But then I didn't go expecting to hear 'Supper's Ready', or to pick faults in their performance or to compare Phil Collins to Peter Gabriel. My top 3 Genesis tracks, 'Ripples', 'The Cinema Show' and 'In The Cage' were all represented in some way, too, so I was delighted. There was a much better balance than their was in some of their 80s and 90s sets, IMHO. Can't wait for the DVD and live album...

Even the less-than-prog-friendly Rolling Stone magazine gave one of the band's US shows a very positive review.

Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 10:05

Well, friday's concert was just great, I don't care what all those god-damn purists say. The concert started around 20h30 and ended at 23h00, without a break that is ! The guys still have it, still know how to play, and Collins knows how to take control of a crowd and please it. For me, highlights were Behind the Lines, Ripples, The drum duet leading into Los Endos, Firth of Fifth's instrumental section, Cinema Show's instrumental section, In the Cage, Mama, Domino and a very emotional rendition fro Collins on vocals during Hold on My heart (a crowd pleaser, huge positive reaction from the crowd).

To all you Collins bashers : just get out there and do better than him, if he is so sh*tty, or just shut the hell up once and for all, your narrow vision gets very, very tiresome.

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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio

Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 12:11

I second that Melomaniac

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C'est la vie

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 12:34

Melomaniac wrote:

To all you Collins bashers : just get out there and do better than him, if he is so sh*tty, or just shut the hell up once and for all, your narrow vision gets very, very tiresome.

Melomaniac, that's not our job, we are not proffesional musicians, sutrely we would do it worst, but this forum is to express your opinions, love or hate Phil Collins Genesis, in my case I hate it, that's why i wouldn't had gone even if I had the tickets for free, because I know I won't like the show.

BTW: I'm tired of listening people saying:

If you don't like Rap you are narrow minded
If you don't like Hip Hop, you are narrow minded
If you don't like Phil Collins Genesis, you are narrow minded.

WHY???????

Aren't we allowed to have our own taste and like or dislike what we want?

It's even worst in the case of ELP, there were lots of guys bashing them, but never read anybody saying "You are narrow minded if you don't like Love Beach"...Well most of the few who got angry and replied with hostility were banned.

So learn to live with it, people are here to express their opinion and more likely the vast majority of the members here don't like 3 men Genesis.

If I want to see Pop I go to see a Pop band not Genesis.

Iván

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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 12:36

Melomaniac wrote:

Well, friday's concert was just great, I don't care what all those god-damn purists say. The concert started around 20h30 and ended at 23h00, without a break that is ! The guys still have it, still know how to play, and Collins knows how to take control of a crowd and please it. For me, highlights were Behind the Lines, Ripples, The drum duet leading into Los Endos, Firth of Fifth's instrumental section, Cinema Show's instrumental section, In the Cage, Mama, Domino and a very emotional rendition fro Collins on vocals during Hold on My heart (a crowd pleaser, huge positive reaction from the crowd).

To all you Collins bashers : just get out there and do better than him, if he is so sh*tty, or just shut the hell up once and for all, your narrow vision gets very, very tiresome.

Sounds like they did manage to toss in some of their older tracks. And I'm glad to see they did songs like Domino as well.

By the way, I third your sentiment.

I've never been a big fan of the albums IT or WCD (although loved some songs from each - Domino, Fading Lights, DTLS), but all the Collins bashing is annoying and pointless. There were three members who made their 80's albums. And if you check out Bankstatement and Mike & Mechanics, it is apparent that Collins wasn't the only one interested in pop music. Ultimately, Genesis have always been a pop band to some extent. Yes, they did 10+ minute long songs, when it was popular to do so. They just went along with the times. Something they had to do to survive as a band. And while I'm not a fan of a lot of their poppier material, they still retained a lot of creativity within the band on at least some songs.

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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?

Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 12:49

^Exactly. When you look into the other members' solo careers, the Collins bashing doesn't hold up. And actually, it extends beyond Mike and the Mechanics and Bankstatement. It also should be remembered that Banks contributed stuff like 'Anything She Does' and 'Hold On My Heart' and Rutherford did dross like 'Taking It All Too Hard', 'Never A Time' and 'Way Of The World'.

It's not a question of narrowmindedness. If you dislike Collins-era Genesis, fine, nobody's gonna lose any sleep over it (there's no album I like in its entirety after 'Duke' myself). But repeating the same old 'Collins ruined Genesis' attitudes is really boring.

And on Progressive Ears, there's been a surprise amongst most members who saw the shows about how good they have been on this tour.

Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 12:55

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Melomaniac wrote:

To all you Collins bashers : just get out there and do better than him, if he is so sh*tty, or just shut the hell up once and for all, your narrow vision gets very, very tiresome.

BTW: I'm tired of listening people saying:

If you don't like Rap you are narrow minded
If you don't like Hip Hop, you are narrow minded
If you don't like Phil Collins Genesis, you are narrow minded.

WHY???????

Aren't we allowed to have our own taste and like or dislike what we want?

So learn to live with it, people are here to express their opinion and more likely the vast majority of the members here don't like 3 men Genesis.

If I want to see Pop I go to see a Pop band not Genesis.

Iván

Well, it was my opinion, I stand by it, though I could have used some diplomacy or delicacy, I will give you that.

See, the thing is I discovered Genesis when Mama came out, I was in my early teens (or pre-teens) and I still appreciate it for what it is : pop of very high quality. Later, when I discovered the older Genesis, I knew it was something very special, but different, not better or worse. Like I previously said a long while ago on this very forum, had Genesis changed their name to Collins, Banks, Rutherford, I bet they wouldn't get the bashing they get, yet the music would still be the same.

I know the majority of people on PA don't like the 3 man Genesis, but I also bet that there are quite a few in those people who won't admit they actually like it, because it is so uncool to like it in these forums.

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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 13:26

Melomaniac wrote:

Well, it was my opinion, I stand by it, though I could have used some diplomacy or delicacy, I will give you that.

There's no problem if you like 3 men Genesis or not, that's only personal taste.

In my case3 i started with 5 men Genesis so it's hard for me to accept the change, I'm also sure that if they changed their names nobody would even care about them because it's the name Genesis is a word that carries a lot of meaning as pioneers and one of the most respected Prog bands.

Most of us like other genres also but it's hard for us listening the band we once loved releasing albums like Invisible Touch or Shapes, but most of the hatred is caused by Phil himself, he spoke a lot of BS about Genesis, Prog and other respected bands when they were extremely popular and later tried to change his discourse when they were not popular anymore.

So his actions or words caused a logical reaction in the people who heard them talking about Progressive Rock bands as rotten apples that fell off the trees because Punk shake them or that he never liked what they did and even said once he felt embarrassed, but even worst than those words is listening today saying that The Lamb is his favorite album and he always loved Yes.

Now, I don’t believe anybody here will stop saying which band they love, the atmosphere promoted by owners and Administrators was always of freedom of speech, but I believe less that somebody who loves 3 men era will ever say they were crap.

Just to finish, I agree with the point that this thread seems absurd, because if you don’t like a band, you just don’t go, it’s a bit unfair to go to a concert you know you won’t like and then criticize it………If you knew you were not going to like it, just don’t go, or if you go, you shouldn’t start the thread because you already expected what you got for free.

Phil Collins came here and I preferred staying in a pub because I don’t like his music, I once criticized the Invisible Touch tour because it was my first Genesis concert and I expected something different, but if you know you’re going to hate something, avoid it.

But it's also wrong to ask people to shut up because you don't like what they say, here you come to listen what you like and what you don't like.

Iván

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Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 14:16

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Melomaniac wrote:

Well, it was my opinion, I stand by it, though I could have used some diplomacy or delicacy, I will give you that.

There's no problem if you like 3 men Genesis or not, that's only personal taste.

But it's also wrong to ask people to shut up because you don't like what they say, here you come to listen what you like and what you don't like.

Iván

People don't bash Neil Peart, and he said the following about all the pre Moving Pictures albums : "They are like kids drawings that hang on the refrigerator for too long, and I believe there is no need for these albums to still be listened to." And it was also he who provided the rap section in Roll the Bones, and his favorite Rush albums are Power Windows and Hold your Fire (all this info taken from the book Contents Under Pressure : 30 years of Rush at home and away). And we also know how they don't write complex prog epics, yet they never get flamed as Genesis are.

Now I'm not saying I like EVERY Genesis song from the 3 man version, some are just horrible, but they still managed to put out songs like Home by the Sea, Domino, The Brazilian, and the excellent Driving the Last Spike, Dreaming While you Sleep and Fading Lights from We Can't Dance. I believe it was their way of satisfying their prog leanings as well as trying to satisfy their long time fans.

Also, like I previously said, I should have used more delicacy in my statement and I apologize to people I may have offended.

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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio

Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 14:48

We don't want stopping people to express their opinions, but maybe sometimes we are fed up to read too much negative things on this board.

The problem with Vibration, is that he likes nothing and he likes to bash every shows, every festivals, Montreal and so on... Enough of this. This member should be shutted up and banned. We don't need this constant negativness on this forum. It's very sad, because everytime that I want to post something about a show or an event happening in Montreal, Vibration don't forget to post something negative about it and likes to bash everything even if usually he does not attend the event or the show...

Maybe it would be a good idea to get rid of him...

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C'est la vie

Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 14:52

Prog.Sylvie wrote:

We don't want stopping people to express their opinions, but maybe sometimes we are fed up to read too much negative things on this board.

Maybe it would be a good idea to get rid of him...

You can't help but feel sorry for him sometimes, he sounds like a frustrated old git from Toronto !!!

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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio

Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 15:08

Vibrationbaby wrote:

Prog.Sylvie wrote:

By the way, you can stay home drinking some scotch with your friends at home and listening to Genesis early record...

I drink scotch with my dogs mostly.

Who else would want your disagreable company anyway ?

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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio

Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 15:10

Melomaniac wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Melomaniac wrote:

Well, it was my opinion, I stand by it, though I could have used some diplomacy or delicacy, I will give you that.

There's no problem if you like 3 men Genesis or not, that's only personal taste.

But it's also wrong to ask people to shut up because you don't like what they say, here you come to listen what you like and what you don't like.

Iván

Also, like I previously said, I should have used more delicacy in my statement and I apologize to people I may have offended.

I'm in agreement with you Melomaniac. I think Phil tried to distance himself from the 'prog' tag and other bands because of the musical climate change, and it was the wrong move, IMHO. However, he's far from the only musician to do that. I've read Chris Cutler lay into prog bands in general and he doesn't get as much flak; it's always Phil which gets the most heat.

As for Phil liking Yes, he says in the recent Genesis book 'Chapter And Verse' that he loved the 'Close To The Edge' era but I don't get the impression that he liked much beyond that. And for the record, he speaks of VDGG in that book with real respect and admiration.

There is still a lot of excellent material on the 80s Genesis albums, yeah. I could honestly say there is not one Genesis album I won't defend in some way (I can scarcely think of many other bands that I accept every album of); 'Abacab' is maybe my least favourite but that has some good material that really came alive on concert recordings I have. I like some of the pop tunes too; 'That's All', 'Land Of Confusion', 'No Son Of Mine', 'Jesus He Knows Me' and 'Keep It Dark', to name a few, are much better than a lot of singles released in that era, IMHO.

Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 15:13

Glad to read I'm not the only one who thinks that way, Salmacis.

Have you read Chapter and Verse ?

I plan on getting it soon, must be a damn good read !

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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio

Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 15:16

I haven't bought it yet- it's quite costly- BUT it's a great book based on what I've read in it.

Posted By: Neil
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 15:17

Vibrationbaby wrote:

They`re a symbol of excessive greed. And the sound was crap.

Whilst I don't necessarily subscribe to the first statement I must confess that the last two times that I saw them the mix was pretty average. The last time was the "Calling All Stations" tour and I also wouldn't have gone if I hadn't had free tickets.

I do like some of the post Gabriel/Hackett stuff and whatever anyone says the remaining three musicians do have considerable writing and musical talent. I saw them at Knebworth in the early nineties and that was a good gig by any standards.

They do appear to have cultivated a bit of an image problem 'though; mostly I think down to some of the actions of Mr Collins. The ticket cost does seem excessive as well; especially considering that Rush are currently playing the UK for about £45 a ticket. Why did Genesis need well over £100 a ticket?

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When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory.

Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 15:21

Heavyfreight wrote:

Vibrationbaby wrote:

They`re a symbol of excessive greed. And the sound was crap.

Have you seen their live rig this time around ? Hell, it's bigger than anything U2 ever used, and I have heard though cannot confirm that there are at least two or three of these rigs traveling around, so that's a lot of money only for transportation, crew, venue rentals, etc,etc...

I saw both Rush and Genesis last week-end (what a blast I had) and there is no comparison between the two live rigs, so I think the ticket fee is somewhat justified, and I for one gladly paid it.

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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio

Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 18:58

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

If I want to see Pop I go to see a Pop band not Genesis.

Iván

hello Ivan.

I think you would be pleasantly surpised with the current setlist, they do a good job of representing each era and play the music with a lot of enthusiasm...Phil is really starting to get his old juice back when he goes behind the kit. Although the ticket prices are very high, many people rave about how great the show is (there was a good thread over on Progressive Ears about the tour), they three of them really seem to embrace the progressive songs as well as the pop stuff, so I'd atleast give the fella's a chance before writing off the tour like this. I haven't been able to see them, but I really wish I could....maybe if Pete comes around and they do the Lamb (I'm still crossing my fingers).

Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 19:06

salmacis wrote:

Melomaniac wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Melomaniac wrote:

Well, it was my opinion, I stand by it, though I could have used some diplomacy or delicacy, I will give you that.

There's no problem if you like 3 men Genesis or not, that's only personal taste.

But it's also wrong to ask people to shut up because you don't like what they say, here you come to listen what you like and what you don't like.

Iván

Also, like I previously said, I should have used more delicacy in my statement and I apologize to people I may have offended.

I agree also. I'm usually somewhat embarassed to admit that I can listen to every Genesis album and find strong points all around. I think the pop albums, "Shapes" in particular, are easy to write off for the change in direction and loss of grandeur, but then we're forgetting to see them for what they are: darn good pop albums. I second that they often sound better on live recordings; I've heard a recording or two from the Mama tour that really pack some heat: so I can definately say they cared about what they were doing then, it's not as if they were just fumbling about for the money and fame (which is what many Gabriel-era fans, "purists", will always believe).

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 21:55

jimmy_row wrote:

hello Ivan.

I seen it Jimmy, but honestly I can't styand a single post W&W track except the Brazilian, I don't care to see the excellent Jazz guitar player Daryl Stuermer making Hackett's parts and much less can't stand Collins voice.

I went to see the Invisible Touch toutr and they played some Prog stuff, it was equally disappointing, one of the two concerts I left befoptre it ended (the other one was Jon Anderson solo in Lima).

So no, that's not for me, I wouldn't go for free, but again I believe it0's absurd to go to a concert you know before that you won't like.

Iván

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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 01:51

yea the Invisible Touch tour wasn't exactly anything to write home about from what I've seen, nor was the dreadful We Can't Dance tour (now that I think about it, here's ONE Genesis album I have a hard time finding anything good about)...I think they're much better now than 20 years ago when they were pretending to hate prog to push their pop career (I mean, c'mon, you can play decent pop music AND acknowledge the brilliance of your past)...they have a much better feel for the old stuff these days, maybe a bit of nostalgia? But anyway, I understand if you don't like Phil's voice, there's some Gabriel songs that I really don't like to hear Phil sing (Dancing with the Moonlit Knight anyone?...good thing that didn't last long). No use going to a show you won't enjoy, even if the tickets are free - seems like someone is just trying to be difficult in that case.

Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 04:49

'We Can't Dance' is too long, IMHO. As a single album it would have been much better, as pretty much every one of those ballads on there is well below par.

I don't feel embarassed about admitting to liking some of the 3 man era albums. The irony of people saying how 'uncool' these 80s albums are is precious; even Genesis themselves admit they've hardly ever been fashionable at any point in their careers and prog as a genre is not cool, either. But do I care? Not a bit of it. 'Embarassed', 'guilty pleasures' and 'uncool' are terms I take no notice of!!

I will say though, Phil just couldn't sing 'Dancing With The Moonlit Knight', IMHO. Some of the Gabriel songs I thought he was brilliant with ('Carpet Crawlers', 'In The Cage' and yes, 'Supper's Ready') but this was not one of them.

Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 10:56

Prog.Sylvie wrote:

We don't want stopping people to express their opinions, but maybe sometimes we are fed up to read too much negative things on this board.

Maybe it would be a good idea to get rid of him...

OH NO ! Now she wants to prosecute me. Death sentence. Medieval torture.Firing squad. String my body up in the village square for all to see. I guess she hasn`t read the bio I wrote for Montréal band Octobre on this very site. Sylv check it out and feel stupid. I`ve also written a few other bios and am currently working on another one. I`ve also written over 150 reviews since Feb 2004 when I joined as one of the original core members. I don`t see any reviews by prog sylvie. At least I make contributions to progarchives with the precious little time I have to devote to it so maybe we should just get rid of you Smile

.

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Posted By: Kid-A
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 11:08

^ So what?, doesn't entitle you to act like an arsehole.

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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 11:21

Kid-A wrote:

^ So what?, doesn't entitle you to act like an arsehole.

I`m not acting like an arsehole look what she wrote. I was merely defending myself. These forums are not like the reality TV series Survivor where you get voted off the island.

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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 12:02

salmacis wrote:

'We Can't Dance' is too long, IMHO. As a single album it would have been much better, as pretty much every one of those ballads on there is well below par.

I agree about In the Cage and especially Carpet Crawlers...and to be honest, I think Phil did an excellent job with Supper's Ready, he almost outdoes Pete for "weirdness" on Willow Farm. In addition, song like I Know What I Like and Cinema Show sound almost as if they were made for Phil's singing style around 76/77.

Posted By: Heptade
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 13:02

BTW, I saw both Genesis and Rush (last night) in Toronto recently, and though I don't support high ticket prices (won't pay 'em), the Genesis show was much more elaborate, longer and just plain better. Of course, at the Rush show I had the worst seats in the house (still 60 bucks!) and didn't actually hear any bass guitar all night. Thanks, Air Canada Centre.

Anyway, the Rush show was fine, but Genesis was very entertaining. Perhaps entertaining's not enough for some, I guess...

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The world keeps spinning, people keep sinning
And all the rest is just bullsh*t
-Steve Kilbey

Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 14:50

It`s good to be back on track. To be quite honest I was playing a bit of a devil`s advocate when I started this thread just to get some discussion going. Also, I did enjoy myself at the show even though Genesis aren`t my favourite band. The sound in the big O that night was definitely flawed. They did play a good mix from the early years and the later Dead

years. Personally I prefer more intimate concert settings and think that the stage show was really blown out of proportion. A concert should be about the music first and foremost and this concert, in my opinion, was just too "showy".

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Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 14:53

Vibrationbaby wrote:

It`s good to be back on track. To be quite honest I was playing a bit of a devil`s advocate when I started this thread just to get some discussion going. Also, I did enjoy myself at the show even though Genesis aren`t my favourite band. The sound in the big O that night was definitely flawed. They did play a good mix from the early years and the later Dead

I agree about the flawed sound, but the Olympic Stadium being what it is... I was fortunate enough to be sitting right in front of the stage right column of speakers, so I didn't get too much echo, but it was weird to see people in the back clapping later than we did !!!

I also would have prefered a smaller setting that could have fitted in the Bell Centre and have two concerts there.

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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio

Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 14:56

Heptade wrote:

BTW, I saw both Genesis and Rush (last night) in Toronto recently, and though I don't support high ticket prices (won't pay 'em), the Genesis show was much more elaborate, longer and just plain better. Of course, at the Rush show I had the worst seats in the house (still 60 bucks!) and didn't actually hear any bass guitar all night. Thanks, Air Canada Centre.

Anyway, the Rush show was fine, but Genesis was very entertaining. Perhaps entertaining's not enough for some, I guess...

True enough, the bass was too low in the mix, but at least they fixed Lifeson's sound compared to all the other Rush shows I've seen. Before, if you didn' have plugs, Lifeson's notes had so much reverb and delay in them that the notes just rolled over one another ; this time he was the one who had the best sound... I also think the concert was the most guitar oriented concert I've seen from them, and it's about bloody time !

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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio

Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 15:30

We all agree with that; the sound would have been better at the Bell Center but on the other hand, it was a nice event to go back to this stadium. Genesis was never my favorite bands (ELP,PF and Yes at first...), but it was a real pleasure to see them playing old and new things, and to see Phil Collins in great shape and with a lot of energy.

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C'est la vie

Posted By: NutterAlert
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 15:32

^what a negative posting

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Proud to be an un-banned member since 2005

Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 16:01

This is not negative at all; Genesis was good even at the Olympic Stadium . Even my husband who did not want to go enjoyed this concert. Nothing negative there, au contraire...

About Genesis, I used to listen to this group in the seventies ( 1973 -1978), and after that we used to dance to this music.

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C'est la vie

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 21:43

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Melomaniac wrote:

To all you Collins bashers : just get out there and do better than him, if he is so sh*tty, or just shut the hell up once and for all, your narrow vision gets very, very tiresome.

BTW: I'm tired of listening people saying:

If you don't like Rap you are narrow minded
If you don't like Hip Hop, you are narrow minded
If you don't like Phil Collins Genesis, you are narrow minded.

WHY???????

Debrewguy wonders - Where in this thread has anyone posted anything of the sort ?

Aren't we allowed to have our own taste and like or dislike what we want?
DB again wonders - it is one thing to like & dislike what you want. It is another to go rampaging over the wall railing madly about how sacraligious or blasphemous a group's changing direction is. You may remember the general opinion that developed after one (actually many more than one) too many anti-Phil or peter vs phil threads & polls. To summarize - enough ! We get it that you hold a deep deep dislike (an understatement if ever there was one) for all things Phil, or rather post Peter. Please, we ask you , move on. You must have other things to occupy your time.

We won't shut up, we are here to express our opinions, even if you or me don't like it, i read people bashing Kansas because of one song, I gave my opinion and arguments but never asked the person to shut up, or told them "Go out there and try to sing better than Steve Walsh", because that's absurd, most of the members here are not musicians and even less get paid fortunes to do that..
DB retorts - Ah, but the question is, if you hate Genesis post Peter, why would you bother going to their concert only to dismiss it. I don't care for cricket, but I wouldn't go to a game only to denigrate the game or its' fans.

So learn to live with it, people are here to express their opinion and more likely the vast majority of the members here don't like 3 men Genesis.
DB asks - so the use of the "majority" opinion is acceptable when it suits our purposes, eh. Answer why the overwhelming albums sales of the Banks/Collins/Rutherford era group means nada to those who prefer Gabriel fans ?

BTWI II: As you notice, this is my first post here, because I also believe it's absurd to go to a concert of a band you don't like because the tickets are for free. I wouldn't had even worried to write here if it wasn't for this quote and the one saying "God-damned purists", I'm a purist and oproud of it.
DB - Do you mean elitist ? What is pure about preferring one era over another ? You do know that Peter wanted out for some time before he left. If you knew the exact time, would you be more of a purist by insisting that only the albums released before that were good ?

If I want to see Pop I go to see a Pop band not Genesis.
DB inquires - so then you agree that Genesis is not a pop group ... LOL

Iván

Ivan, the main problem as I see it, is that the Gabrielites are just happy to see an opportunity to vent once more their anger over the perceived treason that one of their favourite groups has committed. It makes one wonder if someone has confiscated their copy of Foxtrot or worse, banned any pre-75 Genesis album from being listened to. I prefer by a long shot the Bon Scott era AC/DC. I bear no grudge against folks or friends who prefer Brian Johnson. But then, (and I have used this comment before) I have a life. So to post an entry on a thread concerning a concert that I went to knowing that I would hate it from the get go, simply indicates that I should find better reasons to go out drinking. Like maybe, going to a country music club, or better, the local pub, where anyone can access the juke box & annoy me personally, eh.
IF Vibrationbaby had gone there with an open-mind, expecting to enjoy the concert, and found it wanting, that would be fair comment. But why bother criticizing something you don't like to begin with. You're not reviewing the actual concert, just repeating a previously held & well known view. So the review is not about the event, but rather just a selfish way of attracting attention to oneself.
Now let's hope he doesn't waste his time attending other entertainment events that he despises. 'Cause he could likely use some alone time to think & write about things he enjoys & would like to share with others.

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 21:46

Vibrationbaby wrote:

Prog.Sylvie wrote:

We don't want stopping people to express their opinions, but maybe sometimes we are fed up to read too much negative things on this board.

Maybe it would be a good idea to get rid of him...

VB baby, emphasis on the baby part, when you get a chance, change your diapers, call your local AA group & read your posts when you're sober. Your behaviour reminds me of another high ranking member of this site who I eventually found out had his/her fingers rapped on occasion for their "opinions".

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 23:33

debrewguy wrote:

[Debrewguy wonders - Where in this thread has anyone posted anything of the sort ?

Yes, as a fact that was the only reason why I entered to this thread tha ihad ignored since the start.

To all you Collins bashers : just get out there and do better than him, if he is so sh*tty, or just shut the hell up once and for all, your narrow vision gets very, very tiresome.

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41735&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41735&PN=1

Already after my post Melomaniac has accepted as a gentleman he was rude, I don't get why you start with the issue again

DB again wonders - it is one thing to like & dislike what you want. It is another to go rampaging over the wall railing madly about how sacraligious or blasphemous a group's changing direction is. You may remember the general opinion that developed after one (actually many more than one) too many anti-Phil or peter vs phil threads & polls. To summarize - enough ! We get it that you hold a deep deep dislike (an understatement if ever there was one) for all things Phil, or rather post Peter. Please, we ask you , move on. You must have other things to occupy your time.

I haven't done this in this thread, it's no secret i don't like 3 men Genesis, but I never wrote a single post about this tour in this thread, only replied to a determined post that i considered aggressive.

But for no reason I would stop posting my opinios, if you don't like them, don't read them.

DB retorts - Ah, but the question is, if you hate Genesis post Peter, why would you bother going to their concert only to dismiss it. I don't care for cricket, but I wouldn't go to a game only to denigrate the game or its' fans.

If you read my posts I wrote this three times before you are doing it:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

.

Iván

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Just to finish, I agree with the point that this thread seems absurd, because if you don’t like a band, you just don’t go, it’s a bit unfair to go to a concert you know you won’t like and then criticize it………If you knew you were not going to like it, just don’t go, or if you go, you shouldn’t start the thread because you already expected what you got for free.

Iván

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

So no, that's not for me, I wouldn't go for free, but again I believe it's absurd to go to a concert you know before that you won't like.

Iván

So again, I don't understand why you quote me unless you have not been followuing the thread, because WHAT YOU HAVE SAID IN THIS POST, I SAID IT THREE TIMES BEFORE YOU.

DB - and by that you mean ...

That usually when you mention you don't like Rap Hip Hop or Collins Genesis, the "narrow minded" qualification appears, but when people writes against a Prog band, nobody except the fans say something, but never have read the arrow minded phrase.

DB asks - so the use of the "majority" opinion is acceptable when it suits our purposes, eh. Answer why the overwhelming albums sales of the Banks/Collins/Rutherford era group means nada to those who prefer Gabriel fans ?

I don't say if it's acceptable or not, but it's a fact that in a prog site, most people will like Gabriel era more, not saying is better or worst, but if you write in a Prog Forum, you must get used to this dislike for Collins 3 men era, and I know it because i participate in several Prog Forums and it happens all the time.

DB - Do you mean elitist ? What is pure about preferring one era over another ? You do know that Peter wanted out for some time before he left. If you knew the exact time, would you be more of a purist by insisting that only the albums released before that were good ?

For God's sake read the quote you are replying to:

I wrote:

BTWI II: As you notice, this is my first post here, because I also believe it's absurd to go to a concert of a band you don't like because the tickets are for free. I wouldn't had even worried to write here if it wasn't for this quote and the one saying "God-damned purists", I'm a purist and proud of it.

I was supporting the position of those who believe it's unfair to go to a concert even when they know they will hate iot and then dare to criticize.

And yes i'm a purist, not an elitist, if I buy albums from a Prog band I expect prog not of..If I buy an album from a Pop band I expect pop not Jazz.

What's wrong with that?

DB inquires - so then you agree that Genesis is not a pop group ... LOL

I admit Genesis was a prog band during the Gabriel era and the first two Collins albums, after that they turned into a Pop band, I don't admiit they are not POP, I'm saying I wouldn't go to see them, because I expect something different of Genesis than the Pop they did during the tree men era.

Iván

In first place, i find the terms Gabrielites and Phiistines absurd and childish, I'm, a Genesis fan of the Prog era, that includes two Collins albums.

Yes, i don't like the way Genesis took after W&W, and I will say it as many times as I'm asked, I omitted this thread because i thought it was absurd until somebody used a phrase I found aggressive.

I prefer by a long shot the Bon Scott era AC/DC. I bear no grudge against folks or friends who prefer Brian Johnson. But then, (and I have used this comment before) I have a life.

And???? Have i wrote something against people who like Collins era, i respect their taste even when I don't share it.

So to post an entry on a thread concerning a concert that I went to knowing that I would hate it from the get go, simply indicates that I should find better reasons to go out drinking. Like maybe, going to a country music club, or better, the local pub, where anyone can access the juke box & annoy me personally, eh.

I have proved that I said that three times, and i even used the drinking example including my local Pub (which BTW plays only clasic Rock):

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Phil Collins came here and I preferred staying in a pub because I don’t like his music,

Iván

So please, read the whole thread before replying, I said the exact things you wanted to here before you even joined the thread

IF Vibrationbaby had gone there with an open-mind, expecting to enjoy the concert, and found it wanting, that would be fair comment. But why bother criticizing something you don't like to begin with. You're not reviewing the actual concert, just repeating a previously held & well known view. So the review is not about the event, but rather just a selfish way of attracting attention to oneself.

I said this same thing three times in this thread and quoted myself, please read all the thread before replying.

Now let's hope he doesn't waste his time attending other entertainment events that he despises. 'Cause he could likely use some alone time to think & write about things he enjoys & would like to share with others.

I don't agree completely with this statement, because we should feel free to talk about the things we don't like as well as the things we like.

Of course and for the fourth time in this thread I don't agree with a person who goes to a concert he knows he won't like just to criticize it later.

Iván
[/QUOTE]

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Posted By: White Shadow
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 23:45

Lucent wrote:

Notice how Phil Collins brutally raped Genesis's sound.

Anyone care to disagree?

notice how you don't know what you're talking about because they wrote as a team. And also take a good notice how Phil Collins is 100X better of a musician than you ever will be.

Care to disagree?

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[signature]

Posted By: White Shadow
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 23:49

Teh_Slippermenz wrote:

activetopics wrote:

Sell-outs. :(

Yes!!!!!!! Someone who has intelligence!!!!!!!! It was Tony's band. What Tony wanted Tony got. Why doesn't anybody else realize this. I agree on your other statements as well.

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[signature]

Posted By: White Shadow
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 00:04

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Melomaniac wrote:

To all you Collins bashers : just get out there and do better than him, if he is so sh*tty, or just shut the hell up once and for all, your narrow vision gets very, very tiresome.

BTW: I'm tired of listening people saying:

If you don't like Rap you are narrow minded
If you don't like Hip Hop, you are narrow minded
If you don't like Phil Collins Genesis, you are narrow minded.

WHY???????

Aren't we allowed to have our own taste and like or dislike what we want?

So learn to live with it, people are here to express their opinion and more likely the vast majority of the members here don't like 3 men Genesis.

If I want to see Pop I go to see a Pop band not Genesis.

Iván

I agree that you like what you like and there's nothing wrong with not liking something. However, and I'm not a psychologist, but I think you want to hate Phil Collins' music. You can't stand that they went in another direction and therefore, want to condemn it as crap. I know you're older than me and have been listening to prog longer than me, but I wish you would take two hours of your time. Clear your mind of "Supper's Ready" and "Firth of Fifth" and just listen to some later stuff. Forget there ever was a band "Genesis", just listen. There are some really good songs, particularly on "Duke" and "ATTWT". After that it is more specific songs I like rather than albums but even so, I think it is worth it. I doubt this will change your perspective and you might not even read this, but I think you're missing out. BTW, the tour was unbelievable. There was more prog than pop and the pop was good pop, even though you stated you don't like their pop. C'mon, "Ripples", "Carpet Crawlers", "Los Endos" was mind-blowing, "Firth of Fifth", "I Know What I Like", "Cinema Show", "Afterglow", and "In the Cage". Also, as a sidenote, I have to say I'm ashamed to be from Boston (US). Everybody left right in the middle of the Carpet Crawlers because Phil said it was the last song. At least 15-20% of the people were pouring out and my friends and I were pissed.

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[signature]

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 00:24

White Shadow wrote:

I agree that you like what you like and there's nothing wrong with not liking something.

There we agree.

However, and I'm not a psychologist, but I think you want to hate Phil Collins' music. You can't stand that they went in another direction and therefore, want to condemn it as crap.

I don't want to hate anything, I wopuld be stupid to limit the albums i have to listen, believe me, i bought ATTW3 and Duke the nmorning they were released without listening them....Do you think I bought the albums because I wanted to hate them?

I was school student who lived on tips of my parents, so it would be silly to buy an album wanting to hate it.

It's simply that I know what I like.

BTW: I haven't used the word crap.

I know you're older than me and have been listening to prog longer than me, but I wish you would take two hours of your time. Clear your mind of "Supper's Ready" and "Firth of Fifth" and just listen to some later stuff. Forget there ever was a band "Genesis", just listen. There are some really good songs, particularly on "Duke" and "ATTWT".

Do you believe I haven't dione this being a Genesis fan?

Do you believe i wasn't emotioned when some friends told me that EWe Can't dance was a return to the roorts or rthat Mama was a Prog masterpiece?

I got them all and listened carefully the albums and i don't like them, as simple as that.

After that it is more specific songs I like rather than albums but even so, I think it is worth it. I doubt this will change your perspective and you might not even read this, but I think you're missing out.

I already did it and my opinion haven't changed, i don't like 3 men Genesis and i don't think i hjave lost anything, by the contrary i could expend my money in albums of new bands that i love.

BTW, the tour was unbelievable. There was more prog than pop and the pop was good pop, even though you stated you don't like their pop. C'mon, "Ripples", "Carpet Crawlers", "Los Endos" was mind-blowing, "Firth of Fifth", "I Know What I Like", "Cinema Show", "Afterglow", and "In the Cage".

Firth of Fifth without Hackett doing his solo is not worth IMHO, never liked i Know what i Like, not even by Peter.

Afterglow or Ripples are not among my favorites.

The instrumental section of Cinnema Show is incredible, or at least it was in Second's Out, but Phil's voice kills it for me.

So you got your reply, I'm familiar with all Genesis eras, I don't use to talk about something I haven't listened carefully.

Also, as a sidenote, I have to say I'm ashamed to be from Boston (US). Everybody left right in the middle of the Carpet Crawlers because Phil said it was the last song. At least 15-20% of the people were pouring out and my friends and I were pissed.

Well, I left the Invisible Touch Tour concert when i heard the theme song, so I don't judge people who don't like Carpet Crawlers, it's just a matter of taste.

Cheers

Iván

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Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 00:36

Poor Ivan !

The joys of communication !

As always, this kind of conversation gets out of hand, but as I read it now, I find it hilarious !!!

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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 02:13

Melomaniac wrote:

Poor Ivan !

The joys of communication !

As always, this kind of conversation gets out of hand, but as I read it now, I find it hilarious !!!

No problem Melomaniac, when somebody replies to WHAT I HAVE SAID there is no problem.

But when somebody replies you without even having the care to read the thread or your post, this really piss me.

Seems like Debrewguy just wanted tro make his post and used my post repeating everything I had said several times before and without even looking how the thread evolved.

Iván

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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 10:33

Why don`t you people read down the threads before you post. I wrote this yesterday. I might be a bit crazy but I certainly wouldn`t have wasted my time if I really didn`t want to see the bloody Genesis show.

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Posted By: Lucent
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 17:03

White Shadow wrote:

Lucent wrote:

Notice how Phil Collins brutally raped Genesis's sound.

Anyone care to disagree?

notice how you don't know what you're talking about because they wrote as a team. And also take a good notice how Phil Collins is 100X better of a musician than you ever will be.

Care to disagree?

Because your opinion matters.

Posted By: White Shadow
Date Posted: September 22 2007 at 20:49

Lucent wrote:

White Shadow wrote:

Lucent wrote:

Notice how Phil Collins brutally raped Genesis's sound.

Anyone care to disagree?

notice how you don't know what you're talking about because they wrote as a team. And also take a good notice how Phil Collins is 100X better of a musician than you ever will be.

Care to disagree?

Because your opinion matters.

What opinion? Do you actually think you're a better musician than Phil Collins? It would have been one thing if you said they went in a pop direction while Phil was the frontman. But to say what you said was not necessary at all. All you did was repeat what countless people before have said and it wasn't even accurate. And what you first stated was an opinion! And then you ask people to disagree and when they do you say "Like anyone cares...". That's real intelligent

.

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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: September 22 2007 at 20:53

Lucent wrote:

Notice how Phil Collins brutally raped Genesis's sound.

Anyone care to disagree?

Did Genesis' sound give consent? 'Cause then it's not really rape...

(And why do you pass off everyone else's opinions as irrelevant? The point of forums is to share your opinions!)

Posted By: White Shadow
Date Posted: September 22 2007 at 21:02

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

White Shadow wrote:

I agree that you like what you like and there's nothing wrong with not liking something.

There we agree.

However, and I'm not a psychologist, but I think you want to hate Phil Collins' music. You can't stand that they went in another direction and therefore, want to condemn it as crap.

Obviously you're not going to admit it, all I meant is I find it hard to believe that you hate something that in my mind is great. It wasn't an insult or a "personal attack" as they say on PA.

I was school student who lived on tips of my parents, so it would be silly to buy an album wanting to hate it.

It's simply that I know what I like.

BTW: I haven't used the word crap. i didn't mean that you did.

Do you believe I haven't dione this being a Genesis fan?

Do you believe i wasn't emotioned when some friends told me that EWe Can't dance was a return to the roorts or rthat Mama was a Prog masterpiece?

I got them all and listened carefully the albums and i don't like them, as simple as that.

I already did it and my opinion haven't changed, i don't like 3 men Genesis and i don't think i hjave lost anything, by the contrary i could expend my money in albums of new bands that i love. well i am sorry you feel this way. I guess, like i said before, that I can't believe that someone with the same love of Genesis can listen to "Duke's Travels", "Cul-De-Sac", "Deep in the Motherlode", and "The Lady Lies" (to name some) and dislike it.

I don't like Phil Collins voice or Daryl Stuermer doing Hackett parts. i heard In the Cage by Phil and simply hate it, IMO it lacks of emotion, he was never abble to transmit the claustrophobia and the fear Rael felt when trapped in the cage. I disagree. I think Daryl does a great job. Hackett is my favorite guitarist but I am very happy that I got to see Daryl. I also love Phil's voice.

Firth of Fifth without Hackett doing his solo is not worth IMHO, never liked i Know what i Like, not even by Peter.

Afterglow or Ripples are not among my favorites. that's sad. I love them. Ripples was my favorite at the show.

The instrumental section of Cinnema Show is incredible, or at least it was in Second's Out, but Phil's voice kills it for me. They only played the instrumental section.

So you got your reply, I'm familiar with all Genesis eras, I don't use to talk about something I haven't listened carefully.Once again, you don't have to get defensive. It wasn't an attack. I never accused you of not knowing what you talk about.

Well, I left the Invisible Touch Tour concert when i heard the theme song, so I don't judge people who don't like Carpet Crawlers, it's just a matter of taste.

Well, you've heard "Invisible Touch" before and knew what it was.

Cheers

Iván

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[signature]

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 22 2007 at 21:37

White Shadow wrote:

Ivan's reply in bold black

Ivan wrote before:

I don't want to hate anything, I would be stupid to limit the albums i have to listen, believe me, i bought ATTW3 and Duke the nmorning they were released without listening them....Do you think I bought the albums because I wanted to hate them?

Obviously you're not going to admit it, all I meant is I find it hard to believe that you hate something that in my mind is great. It wasn't an insult or a "personal attack" as they say on PA.

So you believe i spent my last penny buying a couple albums because I wanted to hate them???? Hey pal, I proved a lot of times I'm not an idiot and that would be an act of an idiot.
So you find hard to believe that anybody can dislike what you find great? What kind of arrogant statement is this?

BTW: I haven't used the word crap. i didn't mean that you did.

Yes you did:

White Shadow wrote:

You can't stand that they went in another direction and therefore, want to condemn it as crap..

I believe I have better memory than you

well i am sorry you feel this way. I guess, like i said before, that I can't believe that someone with the same love of Genesis can listen to "Duke's Travels", "Cul-De-Sac", "Deep in the Motherlode", and "The Lady Lies" (to name some) and dislike it.

Why? Is your taste the master rule we all must follow? Are you the owner of the only valid taste in the world?

90% of the world doesn't like Prog, and I love it, why couldn't I believe that?

I don't like three men Genesis because my taste is different to your's...Is this so hard to believe?

I disagree. I think Daryl does a great job. Hackett is my favorite guitarist but I am very happy that I got to see Daryl. I also love Phil's voice.

I like Daryl playing Jazz (His work with Ponty is outstanding), but he can't handle with the atmospheric sound Heckett created and i can't stand Phil's voice.

that's sad. I love them. Ripples was my favorite at the show.

Never could stand that track, too much glucose.

They only played the instrumental section.

Yes, but without Bruford, and even when i like Chester's performance normally, I wouldn't go to a concert for the fragment of one track.

Once again, you don't have to get defensive. It wasn't an attack. I never accused you of not knowing what you talk about.

Again, it seemes like you did when you asked me to listen trackls that I have listened thousands ogf times, but offence not taken.

Well, you've heard "Invisible Touch" before and knew what it was.

Not correct, I live in Perú where albums used to take months to reach after their official release (In those days there was no Internet for the public). I reached USA and read about the concert the same day, there were no tickets but i had my Peruvian Press credential and the organizers allowed to enter and even gave me a preferential place.

So I had not heard Invisible Touch before the show, in the other case I would simply not gone.

Iván

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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 22 2007 at 22:45

Quick note to Ivan (YES, I can actually be brief at times, or try)
I should have explained that some of my retorts were mostly aimed at a certain VB, whose posts I really found , er ... lost when it came to their logic, or maybe they were soaked in a certain liquid.
So while we do cross word swords every now & then, I figure you wouldn't just buy an album or go to a concert knowing beforehand that it would be something you would abhor. Good take on your Genesis preferences. At least they are based on the group's music & not the group's personel. Thumbs%20Up

By the way, I do see Genesis as being the same "band" all the way through, but changes in the line-up & musical orientation understandably left some "old" fans disappointed. I just feel that sometimes some, emphasis on the SOME, take it way too personally.
P.S. the terms Gabrielites & Philistines were just too obvious to not use in the interminable Phil vs Peter debates that used to (over) populate these pages.

-------------
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: White Shadow
Date Posted: September 23 2007 at 09:33

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

White Shadow wrote:

Ivan's reply in bold black

Ivan wrote before:

Obviously you're not going to admit it, all I meant is I find it hard to believe that you hate something that in my mind is great. It wasn't an insult or a "personal attack" as they say on PA.

So you believe i spent my last penny buying a couple albums because I wanted to hate them???? Hey pal, I proved a lot of times I'm not an idiot and that would be an act of an idiot.
So you find hard to believe that anybody can dislike what you find great? What kind of arrogant statement is this?

I believe I just explained why I said that. Where did I say you were an idiot? And how is that arrogant? If you loved something so much and felt it was genius, and someone with similar music tastes, not just anybody, felt the direct opposite, you wouldn't be surprised? I never said you had to like it. I said you should relisten because I think it's worth it. You're the one attacking me.

BTW: I haven't used the word crap. i didn't mean that you did.

Yes you did:

White Shadow wrote:

You can't stand that they went in another direction and therefore, want to condemn it as crap..

I believe I have better memory than you I knew I said it. It isn't a matter of having a better memory. I still never said that "you called it crap". I just used the word as a general term for what bad music means.

Why? Is your taste the master rule we all must follow? Are you the owner of the only valid taste in the world? No offense, but you're not a very nice person. I said I feel an emotion of sadness that someone can't enjoy something as I do and you try to turn it around and make me look arrogant.

90% of the world doesn't like Prog, and I love it, why couldn't I believe that?We have similar music tastes. Do you really think I'd ask a random person why they don't like Duke.

I don't like three men Genesis because my taste is different to your's...Is this so hard to believe? Uhm, our taste is similar, that's the whole point.

I disagree. I think Daryl does a great job. Hackett is my favorite guitarist but I am very happy that I got to see Daryl. I also love Phil's voice.

I like Daryl playing Jazz (His work with Ponty is outstanding), but he can't handle with the atmospheric sound Heckett created and i can't stand Phil's voice.I know, you said that. That's why I said I disagree.

that's sad. I love them. Ripples was my favorite at the show.

Never could stand that track, too much glucose.

They only played the instrumental section.

Yes, but without Bruford, and even when i like Chester's performance normally, I wouldn't go to a concert for the fragment of one track.

Once again, you don't have to get defensive. It wasn't an attack. I never accused you of not knowing what you talk about.

Again, it seemes like you did when you asked me to listen trackls that I have listened thousands ogf times, but offence not taken. I wouldn't have percieved that as an attack if someone said that to me. At no point did I insult you or question your knowledge. I said I think you should relisten because there is some great stuff on it.

Well, you've heard "Invisible Touch" before and knew what it was.

So I had not heard Invisible Touch before the show, in the other case I would simply not gone.well a few people leaving is different from a few hundred people leaving. I didn't get up at songs I don't like. I sat through "Invisisble Touch" out of love and respect.

Iván

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[signature]

Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: September 23 2007 at 11:38

debrewguy wrote:

Quick note to Ivan (YES, I can actually be brief at times, or try)
I should have explained that some of my retorts were mostly aimed at a certain VB, whose posts I really found , er ... lost when it came to their logic, or maybe they were soaked in a certain liquid.
So while we do cross word swords every now & then, I figure you wouldn't just buy an album or go to a concert knowing beforehand that it would be something you would abhor. Good take on your Genesis preferences. At least they are based on the group's music & not the group's personel. Thumbs%20Up

Well you`re not exactly full of logic yourself. I wish you morons would stop attacking me just because I don`t like the stupid band. And you obviously are one of those who haven`t read down the whole thread.

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Posted By: KeleCableII
Date Posted: September 23 2007 at 14:10

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but don't forget Peter Gabriel would go on to write Sledgehammer. I prefer 80s Genesis to 80s Gabriel by a longshot.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 23 2007 at 18:25

White Shadow wrote:

You didn't said I am as idiot and I never evem implied you said it, but this sucesion of replies iindicate so:

Ivan wrote before:

I don't want to hate anything, I would be stupid to limit the albums i have to listen, believe me, i bought ATTW3 and Duke thenmorning they were released without listening them....Do you think I bought the albums because I wanted to hate them?

Obviously you're not going to admit it,

I knew I said it. It isn't a matter of having a better memory. I still never said that "you called it crap". I just used the word as a general term for what bad music means.

Please White Shadow, read what you said:

Originally posted by White Shadow

You can't stand that they went in another direction and therefore, want to condemn it as crap..

No offense, but you're not a very nice person. I said I feel an emotion of sadness that someone can't enjoy something as I do and you try to turn it around and make me look arrogant.

Please pal you need to express your ideas better, you said:

all I meant is I find it hard to believe that you hate something that in my mind is great..

This statement is 100% arrogant, you later tried to change it, mask it, but you simply can't understand why doesn't everybody likes what you find great, you don't mention that we share tastes or anything you just stated plain and simply that you find it great and you can't ubnderstand why don't all the rest of the world likes it.

The first tiime you said it sounded very arrogant, but again I can't read your mind.

We have similar music tastes. Do you really think I'd ask a random person why they don't like Duke.

Probably a POP fan will accept Duke easier than an old school Propghead, remember that two tracks from this album reached the Billboard Anual Chart:

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:aifuxqu5ldhe~T30 - Billboard Albums

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:aifuxqu5ldhe~T31 - Billboard Singles

GRAMMY Awards

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:aifuxqu5ldhe~T31I">Year Sort%20Order

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:aifuxqu5ldhe~T31C">Single

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:aifuxqu5ldhe~T31E">Chart

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:aifuxqu5ldhe~T31B">Pe

1980

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=50:wzfqxzu0ldde~T"> Listen%20Now!

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:wzfqxzu0ldde - Misunderstanding

Pop Singles

1980

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=50:dzfwxzu0ldde~T"> Listen%20Now!

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:dzfwxzu0ldde - Turn It On Again

Pop Singles

So it would be easier to accept by a POP fan. and it's not a matter of popyularity exclusively, it'sn a matter of sound, IMHO Duke is a Pop album with some proggy tracks.

Uhm, our taste is similar, that's the whole point.

We don't have similar taste in what it matters to three men Genesis, why is it so hard to understand? Most progheads love King Crimson, except ITCOTCK and Red I can't understand a single one, I don't like RIO, we all have different taste.

I know, you said that. That's why I said I disagree.

At last you get it, we can disagree, it's not so hard to accept.

I wouldn't have percieved that as an attack if someone said that to me. At no point did I insult you or question your knowledge. I said I think you should relisten because there is some great stuff on it.

Understand it, you can make me relisten them one million times, i will still hate their music...IT'S MY TASTE, ACCEPT IT!

well a few people leaving is different from a few hundred people leaving. I didn't get up at songs I don't like. I sat through "Invisisble Touch" out of love and respect.

Iván

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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: September 23 2007 at 18:42

Shakespeare wrote:

Lucent wrote:

Notice how Phil Collins brutally raped Genesis's sound.

Anyone care to disagree?

Did Genesis' sound give consent? 'Cause then it's not really rape...

(And why do you pass off everyone else's opinions as irrelevant? The point of forums is to share your opinions!)

-------------
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 14:47

Vibrationbaby wrote:

Read the whole thread ? That would leave me with too little time to write my overlong posts LOL

P.S. I believe (from my admittedly incomplete reading of the various posts) that the gist of the flak that you have received is not about the fact that you hate Genesis. Just that you bothered to go to a concert that you knew beforehand you were going to hate. A show by a group, that in your estimation, has lost all claim to its' past glory. Free tickets or not, is there really nothing else that you could have done that you might have found enjoyable ?

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 14:54

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Melomaniac wrote:

Poor Ivan !

The joys of communication !

As always, this kind of conversation gets out of hand, but as I read it now, I find it hilarious !!!

No problem Melomaniac, when somebody replies to WHAT I HAVE SAID there is no problem.

But when somebody replies you without even having the care to read the thread or your post, this really piss me.

Seems like Debrewguy just wanted tro make his post and used my post repeating everything I had said several times before and without even looking how the thread evolved.

Iván

True to a point, Ivan. Some posts are overlooked if they seem repetitious. Some turn me off very quickly & so I don't even bother to get through the whole thing.
And as with any means of communication, sometimes we miss things or assume certain "facts".
As for your above post, I'm not sure if you are saying that I repeated what you had said, or that I just used your words to set up mine.

-------------
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 15:46

debrewguy wrote:

True to a point, Ivan. Some posts are overlooked if they seem repetitious. Some turn me off very quickly & so I don't even bother to get through the whole thing.
And as with any means of communication, sometimes we miss things or assume certain "facts".

As for your above post, I'm not sure if you are saying that I repeated what you had said, or that I just used your words to set up mine.

It means I weas intrigued becausde in a previous post you replied me:

In other words you replied to my post and even quoted my post (Despite i stated that I didn't agreed with the first post of this thread and even when my feelings about 3 men Genesis are very similar to VB's), but then you accept you didn't aimend your words towards me.

It was really strange, if I want to say something to VB, I would quote his post, but not your post, seemed that you replied to my post witthout having even read it.

But stranger things happen.

Don't worry, Peter vs Phil threads will always be heated.

Iván

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Posted By: White Shadow
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 16:21

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

White Shadow wrote:

You didn't said I am as idiot and I never evem implied you said it, but this sucesion of replies iindicate so: well the same goes for when I used the word "crap". exact same thing. and i don't see how the succession of replies points to me accusing you of being an idiot.

Ivan wrote before:

I don't want to hate anything, I would be stupid to limit the albums i have to listen, believe me, i bought ATTW3 and Duke thenmorning they were released without listening them....Do you think I bought the albums because I wanted to hate them?

Obviously you're not going to admit it,

read your previous post and link it with this one, if you say i buty the Genesis albums just because I want to hate them and I say that would be an idiot's act and you insist in the same point, well, the conclusion is obvious.I didn't say that. You said that part about buying them. You're putting words in my mouth. I meant You want to hate it because it's popular. I didn't mean that you consciously want to hate it. It meant you're obviously not going to admit or even KNOW it. That's why I said I'm no psychologist. You're right, I didn't do a good job of wording.

I knew I said it. It isn't a matter of having a better memory. I still never said that "you called it crap". I just used the word as a general term for what bad music means.

Please White Shadow, read what you said:

Originally posted by White Shadow

You can't stand that they went in another direction and therefore, want to condemn it as crap..

Crap is a very specific term and a word i very rarely use, if you say i condemn them as crap, I have to believe you mean it...... I can't read your mind to make a psychological analysis to know what you meant. I know what I said (why do I have to repeat myself), But I never said you used the word crap. And I don't see why you would not understand this the last time I said it.

No offense, but you're not a very nice person. I said I feel an emotion of sadness that someone can't enjoy something as I do and you try to turn it around and make me look arrogant.

Please pal you need to express your ideas better, you said:

all I meant is I find it hard to believe that you hate something that in my mind is great..

The first tiime you said it sounded very arrogant, but again I can't read your mind. I didn't try to mask it. I tried to explain what I meant. you understood it wrong and I still don't think it is arrogant. I love something and and you hate it. I said you should relisten. You took that quote out of context and it still isn't that arrogant on its own. I wouldn't have said that to someone who wasn't a Genesis prog fan.

We have similar music tastes. Do you really think I'd ask a random person why they don't like Duke.

Probably a POP fan will accept Duke easier than an old school Propghead, remember that two tracks from this album reached the Billboard Anual Chart:

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:aifuxqu5ldhe~T30 - Billboard Albums

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:aifuxqu5ldhe~T31 - Billboard Singles

GRAMMY Awards

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:aifuxqu5ldhe~T31I">Year Sort%20Order

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:aifuxqu5ldhe~T31C">Single

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:aifuxqu5ldhe~T31E">Chart

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:aifuxqu5ldhe~T31B">Pe

1980

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=50:wzfqxzu0ldde~T"> Listen%20Now!

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:wzfqxzu0ldde - Misunderstanding

Pop Singles

1980

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=50:dzfwxzu0ldde~T"> Listen%20Now!

http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:dzfwxzu0ldde - Turn It On Again

Pop Singles

So it would be easier to accept by a POP fan. and it's not a matter of popyularity exclusively, it'sn a matter of sound, IMHO Duke is a Pop album with some proggy tracks.i think it's the other way around. I think it is their last album you can dub "prog" as a whole. And popularity doesn't matter at all. I might get agitated but I would never judge music on its popularity.

Uhm, our taste is similar, that's the whole point.

it has everything to do with three man genesis. If you like W&W, I don't understand why you, not only dislike, but HATE ATTWT and Duke. You never said you didn't care for it or it was weak. You said you hated it. That was the whole point of my original message. Maybe I could word my posts better but you took what was meant to be a friendly post into semantics argument. This hasn't even been about music.

I know, you said that. That's why I said I disagree.

At last you get it, we can disagree, it's not so hard to accept. I never said we couldn't disagree. I think I disagreed with you in one of my firsts posts on this thread.

Understand it, you can make me relisten them one million times, i will still hate their music...IT'S MY TASTE, ACCEPT IT! What has that got to do with what I said above? Where I typed in green isn't telling you to listen to it again. It is explaining my original post. You didn't have to tell me you hate it for the third time. I understood that after you first reply. and I do accept it. My original point was that you should relisten. All you had to say was I have given them many a fair listen and that wouldn've been the end but you made it into a big deal and got wicked defensive over nothing.

well a few people leaving is different from a few hundred people leaving. I didn't get up at songs I don't like. I sat through "Invisisble Touch" out of love and respect.

The people who left were probably Pop era fans who don't have a clue about Carpet Crawlers, i'm ready to accept that, it's not a problem, they won't stay for something they don't like as I didn't stayed to listen music I hate. They didn't even listen to it. They started to leave after Phil said "this is the last song and it is an old one". And the magnitude of people was sad. It was like a mass migration to the exit. That's what bothered me.

Iván

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[signature]

Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 18:27

Ivan ends his Geneisis life at W&W and that is fine mine ends at Duke. I am still going to go see them for three reasons one My Girfriend has never seen them and two they are still better than many bands playing and three I love going to the Hollywood Bowl.

-------------

"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"

Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 18:30

From now on, can everyone put a legend at the beginning of your reply posts, saying IVAN = BLUE, WHITE SHADOW = GREEN, et cetera. Makes it much easier to follow (especially if the reader didn't read the first few posts, only this newest one).

Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 18:33

The Doctor wrote:

Shakespeare wrote:

Lucent wrote:

Notice how Phil Collins brutally raped Genesis's sound.

Anyone care to disagree?

Did Genesis' sound give consent? 'Cause then it's not really rape...

(And why do you pass off everyone else's opinions as irrelevant? The point of forums is to share your opinions!)

Why thank you, Doc. From you, this means a lot. Normally when you quote me, you twist my words and make me seem almost as perverted at you! Tongue

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 20:40

Shakespeare wrote:

From now on, can everyone put a legend at the beginning of your reply posts, saying IVAN = BLUE, WHITE SHADOW = GREEN, et cetera. Makes it much easier to follow (especially if the reader didn't read the first few posts, only this newest one).

I figure that the posts of mine that people like best are the ones written in white. Shocked

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 22:00

White Shadow wrote:

well the same goes for when I used the word "crap". exact same thing. and i don't see how the succession of replies points to me accusing you of being an idiot.

If yu need a second post to explain what you said in the first one, there are two options:

You weren't clear enough, and for that reason my interpretation could had been correct
You changed your first position after having noticed what you said first,

You used the word crap, you accused me of qualifying Three men Genesis as Crap...my interpretation was natural.

I didn't say that. You said that part about buying them. You're putting words in my mouth. I meant You want to hate it because it's popular. I didn't mean that you consciously want to hate it. It meant you're obviously not going to admit or even KNOW it. That's why I said I'm no psychologist. You're right, I didn't do a good job of wording.

Again changing your statement pal? I never mentioned i dislike Genesis because they became popular, i said I dislike them because IMHO they were bland POP, this doesn't mean bland POP is good or bad, I simply don't like it.

Please don't try to analyze me, I was there in the 70's I bought ATTW3 the same morning it was released without even had listened a song, I saw their involution, that's the only reason I dislike it...I know what I like and I know what I dislike.

I know what I said (why do I have to repeat myself), But I never said you used the word crap.

For God's sake, can you even read what you said?

Originally posted by White Shadow

You can't stand that they went in another direction and therefore, want to condemn it as crap..

Read what YOU WROTE, IT'S A TEXTUAL QUOTE, you accused me of condemening them as crap.

And I don't see why you would not understand this the last time I said it.

Because I quoted you repeatedly and you clearly said I considered them crap...READ WHAT YOU WRITE!

I didn't try to mask it. I tried to explain what I meant. you understood it wrong and I still don't think it is arrogant. I love something and and you hate it.

You want the whole quote?

Obviously you're not going to admit it, all I meant is I find it hard to believe that you hate something that in my mind is great. It wasn't an insult or a "personal attack" as they say on PA. I find it hard to believe that you hate something that in my mind is great..

Literal quote word by word, nothing out of context, you clearly say you can't understand how can people like what for you is great...THAT'S ARROGANT.

I said you should relisten. You took that quote out of context and it still isn't that arrogant on its own. I wouldn't have said that to someone who wasn't a Genesis prog fan.

You weren't here when this albums where released, i was lisytening Genesis since W/W was released, I know their evolution.

.i think it's the other way around. I think it is their last album you can dub "prog" as a whole. And popularity doesn't matter at all. I might get agitated but I would never judge music on its popularity.

Neither do I EXCLUSIVELY, but an album that makes hit singles for Bilboard, is most surely Pop, most likely the vocalist and frontman gives terrible opinions about Prog in those days, but at the end my impression is the one I follow for in first place.

Again you can't understand why i don't like ATTW3 and Duke? Here are some reasons:

Because W&W has Eleventh Earl of mar, One for the Vine, All ion a mouse night, Blood on the Rooftops, etc all great Prog tracks and only one track I don't like at all called Your Own Special Way, while I don't care for a single ATTW3 track except maybe "Deep in the Motherlode"
Because W&W had Steve Hackett adding the most fabulous atmospheres while ATTW3 has nothing that renminds me to the classic Genesis and Mike Rutherford making awful guitar parts.
Because W&W is a return to the roots even with powerful lyrics aster the transitionl ATOTT which is my least favorite Prog Genesis album and the next albums are blander thanm i could expect from Genesis.

No, the dislike came later, after i listened it three consecutive times found it weak and poppy.

I never said we couldn't disagree. I think I disagreed with you in one of my firsts posts on this thread.

Yes, because you can't understand how somebody doesn't like whjat you find great.

What has that got to do with what I said above? Where I typed in green isn't telling you to listen to it again. It is explaining my original post. You didn't have to tell me you hate it for the third time. I understood that after you first reply. and I do accept it. My original point was that you should relisten. All you had to say was I have given them many a fair listen and that wouldn've been the end but you made it into a big deal and got wicked defensive over nothing.

That's what i said, but you aren't able to understand why i don't like it and you forget what you have written before.

They didn't even listen to it. They started to leave after Phil said "this is the last song and it is an old one". And the magnitude of people was sad. It was like a mass migration to the exit. That's what bothered me.

Well, it doesn't surprise or bothers me a bit, the audience that goes to a tour without Gabriel and Hacklett is audience that doesn't like old struff.

Iván

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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 01:21

^^God I wish I had that much free time

Posted By: White Shadow
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 20:53

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

White Shadow wrote:

well the same goes for when I used the word "crap". exact same thing. and i don't see how the succession of replies points to me accusing you of being an idiot.

If yu need a second post to explain what you said in the first one, there are two options:

You weren't clear enough, and for that reason my interpretation could had been correct
You changed your first position after having noticed what you said first,

You used the word crap, you accused me of qualifying Three men Genesis as Crap...my interpretation was natural.

ATTWT isn't even close to being a bland pop album.. It is far more progressive than pop. One little love song was a hit and you abandon the whole thing? And I didn't change it. The additions on to my original statement are just going into depth so you can understand it.

I know what I said (why do I have to repeat myself), But I never said you used the word crap.

For God's sake, can you even read what you said? Can't YOU read what I've said.

Originally posted by White Shadow

You can't stand that they went in another direction and therefore, want to condemn it as crap..

Read what YOU WROTE, IT'S A TEXTUAL QUOTE, you accused me of condemening them as crap. I never denied that I said you think it's crap. You havn't been saying "I don't think it's crap, I just don't like it", you've been saying "I never used the word "crap"" and all of been saying back is basically what you said in the last post. That is why I said "exact same thing". I never implied you used the word, but your posts seem to indicate that those are your feelings.

And I don't see why you would not understand this the last time I said it.

Because I quoted you repeatedly and you clearly said I considered them crap...READ WHAT YOU WRITE! For the fourth time I think, I did. Why don't YOU read what you write.

I didn't try to mask it. I tried to explain what I meant. you understood it wrong and I still don't think it is arrogant. I love something and and you hate it.

You want the whole quote?

Literal quote word by word, nothing out of context, you clearly say you can't understand how can people* like what for you is great...THAT'S ARROGANT. No, I said YOU, SPECIFICALLY YOU, not *people in general. That's what my last three posts have been about. You like ATOTT and W&W and I don't think ATTWT is that different. That's why I don;t understand. That's the point of my posts that say "similar music tastes", and "but you like W&W". BTW, a full quote doesn't show the whole picture, for the whole argument is involved in the meaning of the quote. I have explained that quote numerous times but you don't mention those replies because it helps your argument if that is the only quote people see. I haven't made an attemt to change it. I didn't edit it. It is what I said it is, it is not arrogant. At no point did I say I have "the only valid taste". I can see how on it's own, it could be percieved as arrogant but I've explained it. You just seem to ignore those explanations. Again, we both like Genesis. I like ATTWT and Duke and other songs scattered throughout their pop albums and feel there are strong connections and similarities on these with earlier stuff. You hate it. I didn't understand (or couldn't believe) why we both like "A", I like "B"(the word "something" in the quote doesn't mean everything. In fact, it didn't entail anything other than the later Genesis stuff Iike ATTWT and Duke. I didn;t mean I wouldn't understand if you dislike music I find great. It rather equals "B" which equals later Genesis stuff like ATTWT and Duke) and think it is similar to "A" but you hate "B". That is what I meant. I can be arrogant and close-minded sometimes but I admit it when I am. I believe everyone's entitled to their opinion and wouldn't try to force someone to like something. I didn't say "you're stupid for not liking later Genesis". I said you should relisten because it would be worth it. I understood you're reply and I haven't asked you a second time to relisten.

I said (as "in the past")you should relisten. You took that quote out of context and it still isn't that arrogant on its own. I wouldn't have said that to someone who wasn't a Genesis prog fan.

I don't need to relisten, I was listening Genesis 14 years before you were born, this doesn't make me better or worst, but I heard everything Genesis released thousand of times, despite they are my favorite band from Trespass to W&W, I'm more interested in listening new stuff today rather than loosing my time and money in albums of Pop bnands i know i don't like..GET IT THROUGH YOUR SKULL. you don't need to repeat yourself. I understood five posts ago. I was merely explaining previous posts. I wasn't telling you to relisten again.

You weren't here when this albums where released, i was lisytening Genesis since W/W was released, I know their evolution.Oh, because I definitely haven't heard every album and am unable to see their evolution just because I wasn't alive. I guess if you weren't alive when albums were released it is impossible to put them together and see the development over their course. I see your point now, if you listen to it when it was released, it sounds different than later on.

Just because something is popular, it isn't necessarily pop. Pop might be short for popular but it is more considered a genre with qualifications that musically, have nothing to do with album sales, although there is obviously a correlation between pop and high album sales. and I don't believe ATTWT belongs in this genre at all and Duke is still more prog than pop.

Again you can't understand why i don't like ATTW3 and Duke? Here are some reasons:

Because W&W has Eleventh Earl of mar, One for the Vine, All ion a mouse night, Blood on the Rooftops, etc all great Prog tracks and only one track I don't like at all called Your Own Special Way, while I don't care for a single ATTW3 track except maybe "Deep in the Motherlode"
Because W&W had Steve Hackett adding the most fabulous atmospheres while ATTW3 has nothing that renminds me to the classic Genesis and Mike Rutherford making awful guitar parts.
Because W&W is a return to the roots even with powerful lyrics aster the transitionl ATOTT which is my least favorite Prog Genesis album and the next albums are blander thanm i could expect from Genesis.

"Down and Out", "Burning Rope", "Deep in the Motherlode", "The Lady Lies", "Cul-De-Sac", and "Duke's Travels" are all great progressive songs, if you just wanna list good prog songs off these albums.

Try to understand something, ATTW3 was the first Genesis album ever released in Prú with a very short number of copies, I woke up at 6:00 am (despite I was on vacations) to get my copy...Do you think i did all that just because I wanted to hate the album? You already said this. But, No I think you did that because you were expecting "ATOTT", which is unfair to expect every time. And who's changing comments now? Who's got the bad memory now? What was it I said you want to hate? I believe I said "Phil Collins music" .ATTWT was not mentioned at all in that statement or how you bought it "without listening to it". It was a statement about how I think you have a prejudice against Phil Collins' music because it is popular and you're upset that it is different from early Genesis. Whether I'm right or wrong can't be proven because it would be a subconscious thing.

No, the dislike came later, after i listened it three consecutive times found it weak and poppy. Difference of opinion on it being weak and I don't think it is poppy at all.

I never said we couldn't disagree. I think I disagreed with you in one of my firsts posts on this thread.

Yes, because you can't understand how somebody doesn't like whjat you find great. Again, you're distorting that quote's meaning to discredit me. And I believe we disagreed on Daryl's playing for them and Phil's voice. "
[I don't like Phil Collins voice or Daryl Stuermer doing Hackett parts. i heard In the Cage by Phil and simply hate it, IMO it lacks of emotion, he was never abble to transmit the claustrophobia and the fear Rael felt when trapped in the cage. I disagree. I think Daryl does a great job. Hackett is my favorite guitarist but I am very happy that I got to see Daryl. I also love Phil's voice."]Remember?

That's what i said, but you aren't able to understand why i don't like it and you forget what you have written before. No, I remember what I've written before and I understood why you don't like it. That's why I said "I understood that after you first reply. and I do accept it"

Well, it doesn't surprise or bothers me a bit, the audience that goes to a tour without Gabriel and Hacklett is audience that doesn't like old struff.

You're wrong. Remeber you said you don't talk about things you don't know about? Well, the above reply is an assumption and a generalization, pal, and you weren't there. there were a lot of prog fans there. I talked to a guy who saw them in the tour when they recorded "Seconds Out". I also talked to two guys about Yes and King Crimson and another guy complimented me on my ATOTT shirt I bought.

Iván

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 22:01

Ok, it's a waste of time, you will keep changing and over explaining everything you said before.

Will only make a couple notes and that's all:

Oh, because I definitely haven't heard every album and am unable to see their evolution just because I wasn't alive.

If you haven't heard every album they released you're definetely not capable of understanding their eviolution completely, that's a fact.

I guess if you weren't alive when albums were released it is impossible to put them together and see the development over their course. I see your point now, if you listen to it when it was released, it sounds different than later on.

If you listen all their albums you are able to understand the evolution, but you have admitted in the last quote you have not even heard all their albums.

There's something called reading, I'm member not only of PA but 5 or 6 Prog more sites and I read the opinions of most of the people there, it's logical to assume the vast majority is formed by three men era Genesis.

Now use your logic:

1.- The people left when Phil anounced it was an old song...ergo, we're talking about Pop Genesis fans, the Prog fans went to listen OLD tracks mostly.

2.- No old timer Genesis fan would leave in Carpet Crawlers after listening the whole concert.

That's all for me here, good luck pal, we will meet again in another thread but not in this one, it's getting boring.

Iván

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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 22:10

what a lovely array of colors...

Posted By: progcabaretdoll
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 06:26

KeleCableII wrote:

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but don't forget Peter Gabriel would go on to write Sledgehammer. I prefer 80s Genesis to 80s Gabriel by a longshot.

SLEDGEHAMMER is a fun, fun, fun pop song!!

Posted By: Zargus
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 12:47

Atavachron wrote:

what a lovely array of colors...

It'sss.... psychedelic!

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Posted By: Floydian42
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 18:05

progcabaretdoll wrote:

KeleCableII wrote:

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but don't forget Peter Gabriel would go on to write Sledgehammer. I prefer 80s Genesis to 80s Gabriel by a longshot.

SLEDGEHAMMER is a fun, fun, fun pop song!!

But Gabriel also wrote Family Snapshot and Here comes the Flood, which IMO blows anything 80's Genesis did out of the water.

Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 18:14

Floydian42 wrote:

progcabaretdoll wrote:

KeleCableII wrote:

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but don't forget Peter Gabriel would go on to write Sledgehammer. I prefer 80s Genesis to 80s Gabriel by a longshot.

SLEDGEHAMMER is a fun, fun, fun pop song!!

But Gabriel also wrote Family Snapshot and Here comes the Flood, which IMO blows anything 80's Genesis did out of the water.

And let us not forget, in recent years, the Gabe has returned to a wholesome, progressive, lush sound, whereas Genesis is still deep in their pop nowadays.

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 18:26

Shakespeare wrote:

Floydian42 wrote:

progcabaretdoll wrote:

KeleCableII wrote:

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but don't forget Peter Gabriel would go on to write Sledgehammer. I prefer 80s Genesis to 80s Gabriel by a longshot.

SLEDGEHAMMER is a fun, fun, fun pop song!!

But Gabriel also wrote Family Snapshot and Here comes the Flood, which IMO blows anything 80's Genesis did out of the water.

And let us not forget, in recent years, the Gabe has returned to a wholesome, progressive, lush sound, whereas Genesis is still deep in their pop nowadays.

Let's see,post Gabriel gems ... what can we mention - Ripples ( A favourite of Hackett), Dance on a Volcano, Turn it on Again, Abacab, Home by the Sea/Second Home by the Sea, That's All (among my top 5 Genesis songs from either era), Mama, Land of Confusion, Jesus he Know Me.
Was the 80s Genesis more "pop" than 80s Gabriel ? Certainly, Gabriel maintained a more serious persona in his music. But on balance, both followed a more mainstream approach to the compositions.

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: White Shadow
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 18:26

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Ok, it's a waste of time, you will keep changing and over explaining everything you said before.

how did I change it? Once again you just say the same thing over and ignore what I say,Will only make a couple notes and that's all:

Oh, because I definitely haven't heard every album and am unable to see their evolution just because I wasn't alive.

If you haven't heard every album they released you're definetely not capable of understanding their eviolution completely, that's a fact.that was sarcasm. I was saying "because I wasn't alive when they were released, I was stopped from hearing every album". It was part of the same statement as the one below. It was clearly sarcastic.

If you listen all their albums you are able to understand the evolution, but you have admitted in the last quote you have not even heard all their albums. again, it was sarcasm, I have heard every album.

BTW: Yes an album might sound different if you listened when released, because you are part of the cultural and historical moment, that's why some albums don't pass the test of time, they were OK in their natural context, but sound outdated when listened out of that context.how would it sound different? I might not get some things because I'm out of the context but I don't think I've ran into that problem yet and anyway, I could still judge it, musically. Albums don;t stand the test of time because they don't remain popular. That has to do with popularity and nothing to do with the music on the album.

Now use your logic:

1.- The people left when Phil anounced it was an old song...ergo, we're talking about Pop Genesis fans, the Prog fans went to listen OLD tracks mostly. I said 15-20% (which is still a good amount) but last time I checked, that was not "vast majority".

2.- No old timer Genesis fan would leave in Carpet Crawlers after listening the whole concert.The majority was still there. It's not like the whole audience left, it was just a sad sight to see a large amount, or any amount for that matter leave like that.

3.- There's an historical perspective, the album Three Sides Live originally had 4 live sides, the fourth one was Prog and the producers had to delete that last side and release one sopecially for North America with a studio side that contauined songs as Paperlate, because very few people that listened Genesis on those years cared for Gabriel era, as a fact many of them didn't even knew gabrioel was ever a Genesis member.could you tell me the relevency of that? I don't understand your point. Besides, I don't believe you could find that album with "paperlate" in 2007. The one I bought was with the prog side 4.

You talked with two or three guys, yes cool, but that's not the target audience of this gig, wait until they make a meeting with Gabriel and Hacklett and then you will see a Prog Genesis audience that wouldn't ever leave before Carpet Crawlers.how can you say that? did you see the set list? There was more prog than pop. And for God's sake, they originally WANTED to get together with Peter and Steve and play the LAMB IN ITS ENTIRETY.

That's all for me here, good luck pal, we will meet again in another thread but not in this one, it's getting boring. sorry i haven't been entertaining you.

Iván

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Posted By: Zargus
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 20:52

Time to sum up this thread..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM&mode=related&search - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM&mode=related&search =

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Posted By: White Shadow
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 22:07

Zargus wrote:

Time to sum up this thread..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM&mode=related&search - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM&mode=related&search =

funny

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 23:14

Done with this thread, a waste of time and a waste of valluable bandwith, If I have to analyze what is sarcasm, what yoiu didn't ment6 to say what was a mistake, etc,...Then there is no point.

Well, only one small thing:

how would it sound different? I might not get some things because I'm out of the context but I don't think I've ran into that problem yet and anyway, I could still judge it, musically. Albums don;t stand the test of time because they don't remain popular. That has to do with popularity and nothing to do with the music on the album.

First, try to use a color we all can read.

Most important, an album doesn't pass the test of time not because it looses popularity, that's absurd, an album doesn't pass the test of time because it sounds out of time, outdated.

Selling England by the Pound was never popular, but still sounds fresh, Invisible Touch is far more popular, modern and sounds totally ouut of time.

Meet teh Beatles would make no effect today in people, it's totally outdated while Abbey Road sounds fresh and both were equally popular in their moment, the first Beatles album didn't pass the test of time.

BTW: Yes music sounds different TO THE LISTENER, if you had listened In a Gadda Da Vida when released it could sounded as a prog masterpiece with it's 11 minutes organ solo but if you listen it now and after having listened real Prog bands, you would notice it's barely Prog.

Ok that's all

Iván

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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 12:49

I need to be insulted. I haven`t been insulted for a while. Come at me. Give me your worst ya weeds. By the way I actually have every single Genesis album including Spot The Pigeon. So I`ve actually given these guys MONEY.

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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 16:18

Vibrationbaby wrote:

I need to be insulted. I haven`t been insulted for a while. Come at me. Give me your worst ya weeds. By the way I actually have every single Genesis album including Spot The Pigeon. So I`ve actually given these guys MONEY.

Equal shares for all, or a little less for the drummer ...

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: Squonk_hunter
Date Posted: December 10 2007 at 00:10

I didn't get a chance to see them but, from the videos that I have seen and the songs they played I believe they did pretty well. They managed to play what I thought were more of the "prog friendly" songs than the pop ones. Songs like Ripples, Carpet Crawl, Dominoes, Cage/Afterglow and Home by the sea. And bringing back I know what I like was a nice touch.

Posted By: Teh_Slippermenz
Date Posted: December 10 2007 at 01:20

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

...The audience that goes to a tour without Gabriel and Hacklett is audience that doesn't like old struff.

Iván

I must disagree, for I was there, DISGUSTED when some of the people filed out during Crawlers, but there were some people who stayed and one even sang along.

True, most of the people who were there were Collins\Genesis fans (I facepalmed when I saw a guy in a Phil Collins t-shirt, but saw nothing of a Gabriel or Hackett t-shirt...meh, at least the Collins shirt had a nice design?), but not ALL old fans hate the newer material. (Although I admit, as a fan of Gabriel-era\early Collins-era Genesis, that I don't like anything past "Abacab". Wait...I guess I do, but only one or two songs. They DID get weaker after Abacab...I was sad when I took another listen to a copy of "We Can't Dance" that I have. The end of it was the middle of the EIGHT YEAR LONG "Fading Lights")

Also, I have some evidence they they retained their progressive roots well into the 80s:

1. Dodo/Lurker. This may have been something they may have even recorded with GABRIEL, had they survived with him into the 80s. No, I'm kidding. Still progressive, though. It's way ahead of the rest of the album, and Phil's deep vocals are great on this track. Besides, they couldn't run around doing "Selling England by the Pound" all of their lives, this change was good.

2. Who Dunnit? That's right. It's a JOKE song, put on the album because Atlantic Records told Genesis to. However, this isn't Z0MG NUMBAR WAN HIT material. It is indeed prog, EXPERIMENTAL prog. I'll admit that what came after (Man on the Corner...) is awful, and prog's mortal enemy.

3. Second Home by the Sea. OK, not Z0MG PROG LIKE TEH MUSICAL BOX, but prog enough. It showed that Genesis still had it in them to do good, progressive instrumentals. The rest of the album besides the first "By the Sea" and "Mama" is crap. I hate the rest of the album, I'll admit that.

4. Domino. Kind of feels like they're throwing a bone, but it's a progressive pop SUITE. They hadn't done a suite since "Supper's Ready" in 1972. It's 10:42, and it's a gem amongst the rest of the mediocre, Phil Collins-esque (In Too Deep) songs.

5. Duke. The infamous lost Genesis suite. THEY DROPPED IT BECAUSE THEY FEARED COMPARISONS TO SR! THAT'S how much they wanted to get away from that kind of thing. They didn't sell out, they were just tired of playing the same old crap (well, it's not crap, but...) over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. However, the suite WAS performed in concert.

6. Duke's Travels. Arguably their best instrumental. Tracks like these are the reason I don't regard ATTW3 as highly as "Duke", unfortunately. The awesome reprise of "Guide Vocal" at the end, with Tony Banks's synthesizers, has to be the best moment of the song.

7. Duke's End. I don't know, I think this qualifies as PROG. This is the end of the "Duke" suite: "Behind the Lines", "Duchess", "Guide Vocal", "Turn it on Again", "Duke's Travels" and "Duke's End", this is an energetic reprise of BtL, giving the album that bookend theme that was on SEBTP and ATOTT.

Posted By: Teh_Slippermenz
Date Posted: December 10 2007 at 01:24

progcabaretdoll wrote:

KeleCableII wrote:

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but don't forget Peter Gabriel would go on to write Sledgehammer. I prefer 80s Genesis to 80s Gabriel by a longshot.

SLEDGEHAMMER is a fun, fun, fun pop song!!

*facepalm*

It's not that good, it's decent, but he's an alternative rock (of sorts) musician, not a pop musician. Sure, he's had a couple of good run-ins with pop rock, but his experimental stuff is far better.

Although, I don't hate Gabriel in the 80s. SAN JACINTO? LEAD A NORMAL LIFE? MERCY STREET? HELLO??

BTW, I always thought "Us" > "So". More artistic than "So" IMO. "So" was his sell-out album save for "Red Rain" and "Mercy Street". Maybe the couple of songs at the end as well.

Posted By: Teh_Slippermenz
Date Posted: December 10 2007 at 01:29

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

[QUOTE=White Shadow]

Again you can't understand why i don't like ATTW3 and Duke? Here are some reasons:

Because W&W has Eleventh Earl of mar, One for the Vine, All ion a mouse night, Blood on the Rooftops, etc all great Prog tracks and only one track I don't like at all called Your Own Special Way, while I don't care for a single ATTW3 track except maybe "Deep in the Motherlode"
Because W&W had Steve Hackett adding the most fabulous atmospheres while ATTW3 has nothing that renminds me to the classic Genesis and Mike Rutherford making awful guitar parts.
Because W&W is a return to the roots even with powerful lyrics aster the transitionl ATOTT which is my least favorite Prog Genesis album and the next albums are blander thanm i could expect from Genesis.

I'm going to have to agree here. ATTW3 was sort of weak. But I disagree on "Your Own Special Way", it's a hell of a lot better than "More Fool Me", and it's still sort of progressive, I don't remember too many other ballads like that until the 80s. Also, Steve Hackett's version with Paul Carrack is actually a lot better. Although, ATTW3 has a couple of good songs, for instance, "Down and Out", "Follow You Follow Me" (laugh while you can, it's got a good synthesizer solo), and "Deep in the Motherlode". Especially the latter. Also, maybe "Many Too Many", as it seems to be the last use of the Mellotron by Genesis.