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Winston Churchill was black

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Topic: Winston Churchill was black
Posted By: chopper
Subject: Winston Churchill was black
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 11:17
In a test for a new quiz programme, Teddy Sheringham's girlfriend was asked who Winston Churchill was. She replied "Wasn't he the first black president of the USA? Well, there's a statue of him near me and it's black". LOL

Hilarious, but I also find it a bit scary that there are adults in this country who don't know about one of our greatest leaders.



Replies:
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 11:18
yay history and culture!

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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 11:42

Apparently a history survey was done among English schoolchildren recently and they knew more about the existence of Hitler than Churchill - kids!!Confused



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Prog Archives Tour Van


Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 12:08
That's sad, but not unusual.
 
I encountered plenty of woeful, almost unbelievable ignorance of the world, and history, when I taught in high schools: "The United States is a European country. So is Jamaica...." "Hitler died of AIDS, right sir? No? Are you talking about Hitler the First, or Hitler the Second?" "What side was Canada on in WW2, sir?" "Was Canada in World War One?" "Did you fight in World War One, sir? He was serious -- opinions as to when WW1 occurred ranged from 200 years ago, to practically yesterday. (That was in the middle of a history course called "Canada in World War One") Can't name three European countries (That was an entire -- geography -- class of "bright" grade nine kids.)
 
It was kind of funny, and made for some "amusing" anecdotes, but it was mainly depressing, and made me fear for the future.
 
I still regularly encounter this at the post-secondary level. 25 years old, and never heard of Stalin. Never heard of Napoleon....  The lessons of the past, and knowledge of the wider world are all too often completely absent.
 
Parents, please play an active role in your children's broader education: surround them with books (fiction and non-fiction) and magazines on a wide variety of subject matter, have awareness and input into what they watch on TV, travel as a family, and talk to your kids -- try to explain the news, and the world, for their sake, and the sake of the future.
 
Turn off the damned TV, chatroom & I-pod sometimes! Foster greater AWARENESS.
 
Value education, and model that valuing of education! (It doesn't just happen in school!) Education is for life, and a life-long process. I believe that ready access to technology in the developed world is a decidedly double-edged sword -- we have produced a generation that expects endless entertainment, and instant gratification via shallow materialism and fashion.
 
Many here will choose not to read this post, when they see that it is more than a sentence or two long....Unhappy
 
(They lack the ability, the patience, and the desire -- thinking and reaching understanding is an effort, and takes time. Effort is "boring.")


-------------
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.


Posted By: Dreamer
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 12:29

^^^ Smart words peter! I agree with you.



Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 12:38
Some classics there right enough Peter.
 
On a similar theme, do you think television is making it harder to differentiate reality from virtual reality. I'm thinking for example of an excellent dinosaur drama on TV at the moment. It's done is a similar was to Jurassic Park, but as a documentary. Mammoths are seen mixing with elephants. The elephants are real of course, and the mammoths are computer generated, but you can't tell that by watching it. The commentary makes it sound like the whole thing is genuine too.
 
It's great to watch, but is it confusing the next generation?


Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 12:56
Originally posted by Peter Rideout Peter Rideout wrote:

That's sad, but not unusual.
 
I encountered plenty of woeful, almost unbelievable ignorance of the world, and history, when I taught in high schools: "The United States is a European country. So is Jamaica...." "Hitler died of AIDS, right sir? No? Are you talking about Hitler the First, or Hitler the Second?" "What side was Canada on in WW2, sir?" "Was Canada in World War One?" "Did you fight in World War One, sir? He was serious -- opinions as to when WW1 occurred ranged from 200 years ago, to practically yesterday. (That was in the middle of a history course called "Canada in World War One") Can't name three European countries (That was an entire -- geography -- class of "bright" grade nine kids.)


But sir, learning is boring! WinkLOL

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just said, Peter.  I may not have got the best education, but I am glad I had a good grounding, from both school and my family.

I'm actually rather keen on learning myself, I just wish I had been more privvy to this when I was younger.

Infact, like your good self, I fear intelligence is slowly disappearing from the world.  Maybe it's just me?  But children and teenagers these days have no social skills whatsoever.  I mean, they can talk about girls/boys, cars, sport, beer and suchlike, but they cannot talk about actual meaningful conversations, because they either feel that kind of discussion should be left to the classroom, or they find it boring.  The attention span of youngsters nowadays is much smaller than I believe it used to be, it's such a shame.

Also, like you, I feel Television and even (oh no!) the Internet, is depriving the modern generation from learning even the basics of life!

I look back at the Victorian era and see many of the then public school boys used to read for their degrees, as well as being taught as well.  They weren't so spoon fed as they are today and they had a will to learn.

Times have changed and I am not sure they have changed for the better.  Infact, I'll stick my neck out and say they've changed for the worse.


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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 13:54
LOLLOL

but also Cry


Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 14:00
Henry Ford famously said "History is bunk...", but i firmly believe the mistakes of the past can be learnt for the future. Most people i know fall into two camps - those that don't care or don't want to know what happened in the past, or how we got here, and those that must know...thankfully i fall into the latter category, i can't bear not knowing what went before !!
 
 
 
 


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Prog Archives Tour Van


Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 14:25

It seems that most people are not only ignorant, but PROUD of it - even SMUG about it.

Willful ignorance will be the end of the human race as we know it.

 



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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken


Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 14:40

I see that Mr Rideout is the voice of reason here. The ongoing depredation of our sociaty is one of the sadest and scariest worries for the future.



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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005



Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 14:40
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Some classics there right enough Peter.
 
On a similar theme, do you think television is making it harder to differentiate reality from virtual reality. I'm thinking for example of an excellent dinosaur drama on TV at the moment. It's done is a similar was to Jurassic Park, but as a documentary. Mammoths are seen mixing with elephants. The elephants are real of course, and the mammoths are computer generated, but you can't tell that by watching it. The commentary makes it sound like the whole thing is genuine too.
 
It's great to watch, but is it confusing the next generation?
 
Actually, I find that program rather fake (especially the CGI) and have stopped watching it.


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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005



Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 15:33
Originally posted by Dreamer Dreamer wrote:

^^^ Smart words peter! I agree with you.

Thank you!
 
But... 
 
ShockedYou may say you're a "Dreamer," but you're not the only one....
 
                                               V
 
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=1507 - Dreamer Senior Member
Senior Member
March 13 2005 240 Today http://www.progarchives.com/forum/pm_buddy_list.asp?name=Dreamer">Add to Buddy List http://www.progarchives.com/forum/search_form.asp?USR=Dreamer">Search for other posts by Dreamer
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=1523 - dreamer7 Newbie
Newbie
March 16 2005 2 January 26 2006 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/pm_buddy_list.asp?name=dreamer7">Add to Buddy List http://www.progarchives.com/forum/search_form.asp?USR=dreamer7">Search for other posts by dreamer7
 
Wink!


-------------
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.


Posted By: Dreamer
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 16:02
oh uh, an imoster, it must be! Doesn't matter, we could do with a few more dreamers here and there.


Posted By: Minimalist777
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 16:25
Yupp its especially frustrating being part of that generation. It seems like nobody can talk about anything but sex, drugs and rock n roll (not even good rock, just crap like Green Day ugh)

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WWOSD?
What Would OliverStoned Do?


Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 16:38
Our President, Lula, visited Bush Jr and said something about the conditions of life of many Brazilian blacks. Bush became surprised and asked Lula: "Are there blacks in Brazil?".Confused - this is not a joke, it really happened!
 
The amount of mistakes about my country is unbelievable and surprising since we are 5th in area and population and 9th in terms of GNP. Cry
 
- I thought only natives and monkeys lived in Brazil.
 
- How do you feel living in Rio de Janeiro in the middle of the Amazon Forest?
 
- I like the way Brazilians speak Spanish...
 
- I once visited your capital, Buenos Aires.
 
- All Brazilians live in favelas; all women are whore and all men are pimps!
 
- You cannot be a Brazilian, you're white!!!
 
- I'd like to go to Brazil and hunt lions and elephants there... Shocked
 
 


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Guigo

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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 16:42
I once heard from a friend of an interview with a member of "New Kids On the Block" way back in the '80s and he didn't know where England was!

Maybe it's an urban legend, but I somehow think it could be true.  I'll try and find out.


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Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 16:45
Originally posted by Atkingani Atkingani wrote:

Our President, Lula, visited Bush Jr and said something about the conditions of life of many Brazilian blacks. Bush became surprised and asked Lula: "Are there blacks in Brazil?".Confused - this is not a joke, it really happened!
 
The amount of mistakes about my country is unbelievable and surprising since we are 5th in area and population and 9th in terms of GNP. Cry
 
- I thought only natives and monkeys lived in Brazil.
 
- How do you feel living in Rio de Janeiro in the middle of the Amazon Forest?
 
- I like the way Brazilians speak Spanish...
 
- I once visited your capital, Buenos Aires.
 
- All Brazilians live in favelas; all women are whore and all men are pimps!
 
- You cannot be a Brazilian, you're white!!!
 
- I'd like to go to Brazil and hunt lions and elephants there... Shocked
 
 


LOL All that's priceless, but sad too. Dead

I'm not suprised about the Bush comment. LOL




Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 17:00
Well... lets see
2 years of preschool
1 year of kindergarten
8 years of gradeschool
4 years of high school
1 year of college and counting...

Never once learned about:
The Vietnam War
The Gulf War
Iran Contra
The Constitution
The Cuban Missile Crisis

It seems that the schools love spending time on the civil war WWI & WWII and ancient civilizations. You usually get to around 1945 near the end of the year and by that time you'll be lucky if you learned anything new. I never actually touched on the Constitution of the United States until the last year of high school where we briefly touched on it in a college level class that you had to pay extra for. A good 10 years of my life was wasted picking out adjectives and verbs in sentences and trying to multiply two digit numbers. The standard 8 grades should be condensed into 4 and high school from 4 to 2 with an emphasis on math and science. 80% of the material taught in schools is repeated from the first grade. Angry



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Posted By: WaywardSon
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 17:01

I think a lot of people think of Brazil as "A developing country" or "A third world country". I actually hate both those terms.

How does one  define what " a developed first world country" really is?


Posted By: Dreamer
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 17:02
Originally posted by Minimalist777 Minimalist777 wrote:

Yupp its especially frustrating being part of that generation. It seems like nobody can talk about anything but sex, drugs and rock n roll (not even good rock, just crap like Green Day ugh)
 
Ahh I'm relieved to hear I'm not the only one suffering. This days I try to stay out of this never ending "rebel" conversations, and when I can I attempt to start talking about something concrete, which isn't that often it always leaves half the people silent and confused, and the talk ends rather quickly...
When I told my freind I find this kind of talks repetitive and quite boring, and want to talk about something about more interesting and complicated, a bit less shallow please, he says "you take life way too serious man."  I feel a bit trapped.
AngryAngryAngry


Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 17:06
Originally posted by Hierophant Hierophant wrote:

Well... lets see
2 years of preschool
1 year of kindergarten
8 years of gradeschool
4 years of high school
1 year of college and counting...

Never once learned about:
The Vietnam War
Iran Contra
The Gulf War
Iran Contra
The Constitution
The Cuban Missile Crisis

It seems that the schools love spending time on the civil war WWI & WWII and ancient civilizations. You usually get to around 1945 near the end of the year and by that time you'll be lucky if you learned anything new. I never actually touched on the Constitution of the United States until the last year of high school where we briefly touched on it in a college level class that you had to pay extra for. A good 10 years of my life was wasted picking out adjectives and verbs in sentences and trying to multiply two digit numbers. The standard 8 grades should be condensed into 4 and high school from 4 to 2 with an emphasis on math and science. 80% of the material taught in schools is repeated from the first grade. Angry



In my classes we usually stopped learning about stuff past 1955, due to "class time restraints." If we didn't spend 3 weeks learning about the Puritains favorite farming patterns, we might learn something timely. Confused


Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 17:09
We got as far as the Cold War and the Cuban Missle Crisis, but it wasn't covered in great depth though.

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 17:13
In the early 80'ds I leved in USA for a couple of years, before Shinning Path existed, few people knew about my country and that's incredible being a part of the whole America (In those days we studied America as a whole coontinent).
 
The really good ones I remember are:
 
1.- I got backstage pass for a non Prog good concert (Will not mention the band) and the lead singer was talking with me and saoid Ahh Perú....Cocaine and Macchu Picchu, it was depressing, this band had toured in Siuth America and only had heard those references.
 
2.- A girl I met in a party told me literally: "You are from Perú, great, I know your country, I was playing risk the other day and it's one of the 4 nations of South America. Dead
 
3.- Anothe girl asked me if I was ashamed of my country because I was wearing Occidental clothes instead of the native outfit as those cute Africans from the university.
 
For God's sake, is that the level of USA school system?
 
Iván


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Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 17:16
The American school system is, for the lack of a better term, f**ked up.
There are high school students who don't even know where Iraq is or even the Middle East.
DeadCry



Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 17:26
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

In the early 80'ds I leved in USA for a couple of years, before Shinning Path existed, few people knew about my country and that's incredible being a part of the whole America (In those days we studied America as a whole coontinent).
 
The really good ones I remember are:
 
1.- I got backstage pass for a non Prog good concert (Will not mention the band) and the lead singer was talking with me and saoid Ahh Perú....Cocaine and Macchu Picchu, it was depressing, this band had toured in Siuth America and only had heard those references.
 
2.- A girl I met in a party told me literally: "You are from Perú, great, I know your country, I was playing risk the other day and it's one of the 4 nations of South America. Dead
 
3.- Anothe girl asked me if I was ashamed of my country because I was wearing Occidental clothes instead of the native outfit as those cute Africans from the university.
 
For God's sake, is that the level of USA school system?
 
Iván


Those %&*#ing non prog bands - you never know who you're dealing with Wink


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Posted By: darksinger
Date Posted: September 02 2006 at 22:45
Originally posted by Peter Rideout Peter Rideout wrote:

That's sad, but not unusual.
 
 Can't name three European countries (That was an entire -- geography -- class of "bright" grade nine kids.)
 
 
norway, Germany and Fenwick are three, right? Wink


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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 00:22
Is that Fenwick pronounced Fen Wick or Fennick?

It makes a difference you know! WinkLOL


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Posted By: Falling Flower
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 07:59

I never heard a history teacher of me mention Winston Churchill in class.

In fact I never even learned alot about WW1 or WW2 in school.
 
My history teacher actually was suprised that I mentioned Churchill in a paper called "My idols in history" I had to do because I forgot my history book and was just reading in class.
 
I think I actually learned more that day by not paying attention and reading about the psychology of human cruelty then I would've learned if I did pay attention Tongue


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Tool makes the butterflies in my tumybox go woooooooosh


Posted By: darksinger
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 08:14
Originally posted by Falling Flower Falling Flower wrote:

I never heard a history teacher of me mention Winston Churchill in class.

In fact I never even learned alot about WW1 or WW2 in school.
 
My history teacher actually was suprised that I mentioned Churchill in a paper called "My idols in history" I had to do because I forgot my history book and was just reading in class.
 
I think I actually learned more that day by not paying attention and reading about the psychology of human cruelty then I would've learned if I did pay attention Tongue
 
you did not learn much on ww1 or ww2 and you are still better off than most kids over here. it's not the teachers so much as it is the utter lack of responsibility and accountibility that children have.


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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 09:18
Originally posted by Dreamer Dreamer wrote:

Originally posted by Minimalist777 Minimalist777 wrote:

Yupp its especially frustrating being part of that generation. It seems like nobody can talk about anything but sex, drugs and rock n roll (not even good rock, just crap like Green Day ugh)

 

Ahh I'm relieved to hear I'm not the only one suffering. This days I try to stay out of this never ending "rebel" conversations, and when I can I attempt to start talking about something concrete, which isn't that often it always leaves half the people silent and confused, and the talk ends rather quickly...

When I told my freind I find this kind of talks repetitive and quite boring, and want to talk about something about more interesting and complicated, a bit less shallow please, he says "you take life way too serious man."  I feel a bit trapped.

[IMG]height=17 alt=Angry src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>[IMG]height=17 alt=Angry src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>[IMG]height=17 alt=Angry src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>

    
Anyone who believes that the concerns about the American Education System are exagerated should read this thread:
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28070&KW= - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28070&KW=

I am not blaming Brian,because nobody has ever explained to him why history is important....


Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 13:03
Originally posted by Falling Flower Falling Flower wrote:

I never heard a history teacher of me mention Winston Churchill in class.

In fact I never even learned alot about WW1 or WW2 in school.
 
My history teacher actually was suprised that I mentioned Churchill in a paper called "My idols in history" I had to do because I forgot my history book and was just reading in class.
 
I think I actually learned more that day by not paying attention and reading about the psychology of human cruelty then I would've learned if I did pay attention Tongue
 
Yes, FF, extra (beyond what the school requires) reading is essential. Bravo!Clap
 

As I stressed, education and a basic knowledge of history and the world are not just acquired in school.

(In prior generations, the grandparents were usually an integral and respected part of the family, so their direct knowledge of the past, and their hard-earned wisdom could be passed on. Families talked.)

Still, there is no substitute for an at-home exposure to a wide variety of reading material, and the necessary love of books has to be ingrained, AT HOME, prior to entry into kindergarten. Small children -- I would start at 2-3 months -- should be read to daily. Also, real parent-child conversation about the world, and how we got where we are, is fundamental.

Obviously, having educated (not just formally educated) parents helps in a huge way -- if the parent is educated, inquiring and knowledgeable (i.e., values knowledge), the child will likely become so as well.

The family, and LIFE itself is a "classroom," and you don't leave it until you die. Schools can't teach everything (least of all fundamental morals and attitudes), and that essential love of reading and thirst for knowledge has to be ingrained AT HOME. The child who was never (or rarely) read to prior to kindergarten will almost certainly never catch up, and will be doomed to a life of academic mediocrity, failure, ignorance of their world, and the past that shaped it, and continues to shape it. With a stunted, limited vocabulary come limited thought processes, insufficient problem-solving skills, and an inability to really, effectively communicate. With poor communication comes poor relationships (divorce, single parenthood, etc.), and from poor relationships come dysfunctional children -- the vicious cycle perpetuates itself.

However, just because someone was raised in a non-educational, non-communicative environment does not mean he or she is necessarily doomed to failure and the inability to have a working relationship (not just spousal relationships either -- life is made of relationships, of many kinds). It is tough, requires hard work and willpower, but one can choose to reject perpetual victim hood, and raise oneself up, to break the cycle. (That's the field I work in, and yes, doctors do come from ghettos too! Sometimes even one good role model, mentor or inspiration -- it could be a person, a book, a philosophy, a religion, etc. -- can make the difference, and tip the balance.)

If you are content with welfare, blaming your parents and teachers, disrespecting all authority and age-won wisdom and mental achievement (and disrespecting YOURSELF) however, don't expect your children to be any different. They learn the attitudes and morals they see modeled at home, and this happens by age four, and prior to entry into the school system.

If I do well in a game of Trivial Pursuit, 95% of my success is NOT due to my having done well in school, or even having gone to university (as a disgruntled opponent once maintained). No, my breadth of knowledge beyond my immediate vocation and first-hand experience comes from a life of reading, and learning, very early on, that knowledge is valuable, "power," attractive, and even "cool." It's good to be able to speak well and with some insight on a wide range of topics, and people notice this. Those who disrespect knowledge and the well-spoken disrespect themselves. Being around the educated or thoughtful makes them uncomfortable (they see themselves as distinctly lacking, in comparison to the other, and this forced self-knowledge is unwelcome, and causes pain), so they lash out, say "I don't wanna know" or "it's irrelevant to me" or "you think too much."

(I imagine they have trouble looking themselves in the eye when they shave, or apply their makeup.)

Do you call policemen "pigs" in front of your kids, curse and swear in front of them, tell them "don't take any sh*t from your teachers" (someone told me that's what she tells her kids), and call the educated "pencil pushers?" Do you tell yourself that all that educated people know is books, that they don't know sh*t about "life," or the "streets," that what they know "don't matter?" (Yes, they have lived, loved, experienced pain and -- temporary -- failure too. You don't know their past, and education is not just "handed' to someone, or gained in school.)

If you never try, you'll certainly never succeed. True, lasting happiness with yourself (and the respect of others you respect) does not come from a bigger paycheck, a flashy car, big biceps, a boob job, the latest computer toys, another beer, a big CD collection, or even a high forum post count. It comes from knowing that you've pushed yourself to your potential (whatever that is -- it could be as a mechanic, carpenter, minister, teacher or fisherman), and knowing that whatever you choose to do, you choose to do it well -- or not at all. At least you tried!

Have you subscribed to National Geographic (etc.) yet? Are there any maps on your rec room wall? Any books beside all those CDs and DVDs? Did you read a book (or five) this summer? Did you read to your toddler last night?

 
Embarrassed Sorry to have written so much, but this is a subject very near and dear to my heart -- I genuinely care. Perhaps, in some small way, I will have helped or inspired someone. This is the hope that keeps me going. Education is the only answer to the world's woes -- or so I firmly believe. We have to start using those great big brains we have.Stern Smile
 
Smile P.S: Here's a very good book, BTW -- it's quite readable, endlessly intriguing, and will teach you a heck of a lot, and all while entertaining you:
 


-------------
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.


Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 13:18
And for those fearing Mathematics, I recommend to start here (adults & children):
 
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393309347?v=glance - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393309347?v=glance
http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/backlist/030934.htm - http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/backlist/030934.htm
http://math.cofc.edu/kasman/MATHFICT/mfview.php?callnumber=mf63 - http://math.cofc.edu/kasman/MATHFICT/mfview.php?callnumber=mf63
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Counted - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Counted
 
"The Man Who Counted", what a book!!!Clap


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Guigo

~~~~~~


Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 13:49
Originally posted by Atkingani Atkingani wrote:

And for those fearing Mathematics, I recommend to start here (adults & children):
 
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393309347?v=glance - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393309347?v=glance
http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/backlist/030934.htm - http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/backlist/030934.htm
http://math.cofc.edu/kasman/MATHFICT/mfview.php?callnumber=mf63 - http://math.cofc.edu/kasman/MATHFICT/mfview.php?callnumber=mf63
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Counted - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Counted
 
"The Man Who Counted", what a book!!!Clap
Thanks Guigo -- that book looks great!Big smile
I will order one for my kids and I!
 
 
BTW, the Bryson book is very funny, as well, and it covers the origins of the earth and life, geology, science, astronomy, histories of pioneering scientists, mathematicians, etc -- nearly everything, as the title says! It's really terrific, and would appeal to just about anyone (that is Bryson's major talent -- he can make you read, laugh, and care about stuff you may have thought you'd never grasp, or be interested in).
 
A must read!
 


-------------
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.


Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 14:03
Peter: Clap

Again, I wholeheartedly agree with your wise words.

When growing up, my parents never swore or said bad things about people.  Even now they do not swear and I most certainly have never sworn in front of them.  It may sound strange to people, but I seriously believe it helped my own personal upbringing.  I used to also read Janet and John (or was it Peter and Jane?) books when I was first beginning my intrepid quest of learning to read.  I believe (although I cannot remember) that my parents also read to me as a toddler.

My parents are working class and my family have never been materialistic in any way and they still do not crave the latest gadgets and mindless rubbish that we get forced on us in the media.

They also never went to University or College, yet both of my parents can read and write and are intelligent individuals.

They have good morals and that is what they ingrained into me, money is not an issue, University education is not an issue either.  Good parents are the most important aspect for new borns through to the day you leave this mortal coil.


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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 15:01
One of the few advantages of living in a third world country is that we know we are not the center of the world so we study everything on the contrary USA knows they are the cebnter of the world so their schools only worry about their history and geography, the rest of the world doesn't matters.
 
You can go to a school in a "Pueblo Joven" (Young Towns is a fancy name for ghettos) and every kid will know at least all the countries of America, Europe and Africa (Well since the fall of the USSR Government so many countries have been created that I doubt even the teachers know all), we study Universal Story and we know about the Egyptians, Roman Empire, the Middle Age and even about the cuban misssile crisis (I reached Watergate because I ended school in 1980).
 
In private schools it's even better, I was forced to study logics, Philosophy and Ethics, Peruvian History, Peruvian and Universal Literature and even Religion, of course this doesn't help too much in a poor country because many doctors and lawyers are driving cabs because there is not enough work but at least people leaves school with a general idea of the world.
 
When I studied in USA I thought it would be much more challenging but honestly it was the contrary, except in Math which is a bit more advanced because our math teachers suck (they only care and boast about the natural talents and don't worry about simple mortals as us that passed Maths with a bt of luck and a 12 or 11 grade -Our grade system goes from 0 to 20-).
 
Iván
 


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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 15:28
 
considering Bill Bryson's book (a short history of nearly everything) I am waiting for a follow-up. "A comprehensive history of nearly nothing"


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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT


Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 15:36
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Peter: Clap

Again, I wholeheartedly agree with your wise words.

When growing up, my parents never swore or said bad things about people.  Even now they do not swear and I most certainly have never sworn in front of them.  It may sound strange to people, but I seriously believe it helped my own personal upbringing.  I used to also read Janet and John (or was it Peter and Jane?) books when I was first beginning my intreped quest of learning to read.  I believe (although I cannot remember) that my parents also read to me as a toddler.

My parents are working class and my family have never been materialistic in any way and they still do not crave the latest gadgets and mindless rubbish that we get forced on us in the media.

They also never went to University or College, yet both of my parents can read and write and are intelligent individuals.

They have good morals and that is what they ingrained into me, money is not an issue, University education is not an issue either.  Good parents are the most important aspect for new borns through to the day you leave this mortal coil.
Right on, Geck0!
 
Parents are the most important "teachers" (they give us our core morals, self esteem and attitudes), and you (and your spouse) are by far the most important role model your child will ever have. Don't expect your child's school teachers to teach your child right from wrong -- morality is ingrained (or not) in the critical first few years of life.
 
And yes, being "educated," informed or wise need not have anything to do with formal schooling.
(Though obviously, in this material world, formal & post-secondary education is of vast -- and increasing -- importance, and school can impart valuable knowledge and insight, and hone many -- pre-existing -- aspects of your personality. Sadly, for some, it may also be the first place they encounter a positive, supportive role model.
 
I can respect and admire people from all walks of life -- from the person who fixes my car, the surgeon who saves my life, to the musician who adds poetry and beauty to my world. Hard-won ability, experience and wisdom -- from whatever source -- merits respect.


-------------
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.


Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 15:44
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

  Good parents are the most important aspect for new borns through to the day you leave this mortal coil.
 
"The only thing the world needs is for each child to grow up in happiness." -- Chief Dan George
 
 
 
You need a license to have a dog....Ermm


-------------
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.


Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 15:53
Originally posted by tuxon tuxon wrote:

 
considering Bill Bryson's book (a short history of nearly everything) I am waiting for a follow-up. "A comprehensive history of nearly nothing"
 
You just wrote it. LOL
 
Or you could just print out all 4,391,686,284 pages of the collected insights, deep thoughts, witty repartee and stimulating intellectual exchanges of the Velvet Room....Ermm
 
(Ah, the art of modern conversation and correspondence!) Confused
 
cya Wink


-------------
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.


Posted By: Borealis
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 20:53
^ Velvet Room posters haven't come here yet. Do they feel concerned, or it's too boring ?... Ermm 
 
 
 
we have produced a generation that expects endless entertainment, and instant gratification via shallow materialism and fashion.
 
Right on, Peter. What I am the most affraid is not the lack of interest in history (of course, there's a minimum requiered! Nothing in the example posted above should be accepted! You know, not everyone should or has interest in that...), its more about no desire of evolving, growing up spiritually or intellectually. Some said all they can talk about is beer, girl, rock'n'roll and ect... NO, they can't even do that! They says absolutely abything constructive, just throw up a couple of easy cliché all the time and share them with people that think the same too! It's just the 'I get a work, fund a familly, I die' thing. That's ALL.
 
In Québec's CEJEP (two-three year long school we usually enter at 17), There's is Philosophy class. We are one of the few place in the world that have the oppotunity of having philosophy classes at this low age. And I love those classes! But well, I am of the the very few that doesn't hate it! That make me crazy of seeing them... No one listen, they all are tired and frustrated and fix the clock so the class end. And I won't says what I hear from them... so stupid...
 
But, isn't this what the governement wants? Dumb workers that keeps their machines running without asking a question, or wanting an answer?


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Vive le Québec libre!...


Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 22:38
Originally posted by Borealis Borealis wrote:

 
In Québec's CEJEP (two-three year long school we usually enter at 17), There's is Philosophy class. We are one of the few place in the world that have the oppotunity of having philosophy classes at this low age. And I love those classes! But well, I am of the the very few that doesn't hate it! That make me crazy of seeing them... No one listen, they all are tired and frustrated and fix the clock so the class end. And I won't says what I hear from them... so stupid...
 
But, isn't this what the governement wants? Dumb workers that keeps their machines running without asking a question, or wanting an answer?
 
Well, I'm not really anti-democratic, or anti capitalist (though I'm more socialist than many of our American friends might like), but the system certainly has its evils. (I think it was it Churchill that said "democracy is a terrible system, but it's the best one we have.") Capitalism needs the working, ignorant, unprotesting poor (much like tobacco companies need addicts, oil companies need vans and SUVs, and drug companies need disease -- there is mega $$$ in treating cancer and AIDS, but obviously much less in permanently eradicating them), and they grease the wheels of the military-industrial war machine, too.
 
To quote (VDGG) Peter Hammill's Lemmings:
 
Yes, I know it's
out of control, out of control:
greasy machinery slides on the rails,
young minds and bodies on steel spokes impaled.
Cogs tearing bones, cogs tearing bones;
iron-throated monsters are forcing the screams,
mind and machinery box-press the dreams.

 

Ermm'Twas ever thus, at least since Caesar provided "bread and circuses" to endear himself to the masses.

Billy Bragg sings:
 
"You keep buying these things but you don't need them
But
as long as you're comfortable it feels like freedom

My American friends don't know what to do
But they'll wait a long time for a Beverley Hills coup

War! What is it good for
It's good for business"
 
("North Sea Bubble")

 

Who was in Tianamen Square, pushing for rights and change? University students -- the educated, who had learned of the outside world, history, and philosophy.

Who was used to scatter, squash and slaughter those students? A peasant army -- uneducated former farm boys and urban poor from the outer provinces.
 
Students in France... Teachers in Mexico.... the informed are dangerous to the staus quo!
 
Opressive power structures fear an educated, informed population -- with good reason.
 
Change (living wages, health care, etc) is not good for the shareholders and the "bottom line."
As Doctor Martin Luther King Jr knew only too well, rights, freedoms and priviledges are not simply given to anyone -- they are painfully earned through blood, suffering and sacrifice. Corporations and governments (much the same people) change how they do business (salads at MacDonald's, tuna that does not lead to the needless slaughter of dolphins, unbleached paper towels, paper from hemp, etc.) only when an educated population -- their customers -- demand, with their dollars, that they do so. (Do you think the popularity of "Supersize Me" had nothing to do with the sudden appearance of low-fat menu choices at Ronald MacDonald land?)  We make the change happen when we stop silently (like placid, dumb sheep, or lemmings) swallowing their lies, buying their poisons, or voting for their bloated, corrupt, oil and weapons company-owning politicians.

 

In the meantime, however, the more people who say "I don't wanna know" or "it doesn't affect me" or "the school didn't teach me right," or "there's nothing I can do" the better THEY like it! Why listen to the news when you can listen to your MP3 player, and spend all day bleating "chatting" about nothing on the web? 

It is said that "ignorance is bliss" -- but that bliss is not reserved for the ignorant, but for those with a vested interest in perpetuating mass ignorance.
 
Stupidity kills.
 
Survivor. American Idol. "Reality" TV. Bigger cars. Win a makeover. Lottery tickets. Cheaper gas for the long weekend....
 
Heads in the sand = skulls in the desert sand. 
 
Same old "bread and circuses" -- too bad for the gladiators....Stern Smile


-------------
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.


Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: September 03 2006 at 23:14
Originally posted by Borealis Borealis wrote:

^ Velvet Room posters haven't come here yet. Do they feel concerned, or it's too boring ?... Ermm 


I think you'll find I did! WinkLOL

Look on the first page.


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Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: September 04 2006 at 00:51
To be frank, I doubt that generally people have become more stupid or ignorant. As I see it there's always been a ratio of knowledgable to ignorant people and this has remained constant, but because of increasing populations and an increasingly globalised media we are exposed to more ignorance. That doesn't mean that there hasn't been an increase in intelligent, knowedgable people as well, though.

I think every generation thinks the younger one shows declining morals, intelligence etc.


Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: September 04 2006 at 07:45
There isn't a great deal I can add here which hasn't already been covered eloquently by Peter & James, particularly regarding the lack of books (yes - proper physical paper & ink books) actually being read these days.

In my opinion, one quality missing in a large proportion of modern youth is respect; both for others, and increasingly for oneself. This may or may not be the case, but I feel respect can be directly linked to the lack of discipline at school and, more importantly, at home - I am not referring here to physical discipline such as corporal punishment but instilling the qualities of self control & common courtesy; these two qualities lead (in my humble opinion) to respect, both for oneself and for others. Remember - if you don't respect yourself, you cannot expect others to respect you - long ago, some bearded proto-hippy said we should treat others as we'd like to be treated ourselves - not a bad philosophy, eh?

Mind you, they did nail the poor bugger to a tree for saying it, though

-------------

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: September 04 2006 at 08:44
I can understand people not learning about Churchill at school (as far as I remember I only did up to WWI at my school) but to get to adulthood (a) not knowing that Churchill is our most famous PM and (b) believing the US has had a black president called Winston Churchill just beggars belief. Not to mention the fact that she thought he was black because his statue was black!


Posted By: Dreamer
Date Posted: September 05 2006 at 08:32
There are people in my class who don't know the difference between left and right wing... They're almost at a voting age, and they're complete ignorants! It's actually embarassing to hear them asking the teacher to explain..Dead


Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: September 05 2006 at 12:27
Originally posted by Dreamer Dreamer wrote:

There are people in my class who don't know the difference between left and right wing...


Living in a country evidently ruled by different levels of middle management, it's becoming increasingly difficult to tell the difference here, too
    

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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 05 2006 at 12:41
Public education in the United States is a failed system.*

That being said, my wife and I moved into an area of Pennsylvania that supposedly has a very good public school system.  What my son (and subsequent siblings to be named later) doesn't learn in the school we'll teach him ourselves.  I have strong views about what kids should be learning, and at what pace, particularly in mathematics and science (because I've chosen a career in these fields).  The bottom line is children could be challenged a lot more and be learning at a faster pace than the one set by current school curricula.  Parental involvement in childhood education is critical.

* Statistics in the form of test scores actually show the United States educates its children quite well compared to the rest of the world until about age 10, after which there is a marked decline such that by the time they are 18, they are significiantly behind.


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 05 2006 at 13:31
I do find it sad  just how little people know about history/geography.
 
 I was able to name every US president, while one friend of mine knew like 5 (obviously Washington and Lincoln  and also George W Bush and Bill Clinton) AngryCry
 
 


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 05 2006 at 13:50
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I do find it sad  just how little people know about history/geography.
 
 I was able to name every US president, while one friend of mine knew like 5 (obviously Washington and Lincoln  and also George W Bush and Bill Clinton) AngryCry
 
 
 
I bet very few USA kids believe that Nixon was the only President involved in an impeachment, some will remeber that Clinton was at the border and almost none will know about Andrew Johnson
 
If you ask the which Presidents were assasinated during their period most of them will aswer Kennedy and Lincoln, I doubt many know about James Garfield (Probably will belñieve he was the first cat President LOL) and William Mc Kinley.
 
Ask them and you'll know it's truth.
 
Iván
 
 


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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 05 2006 at 13:57
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
I bet very few USA kids believe that Nixon was the only President involved in an impeachment, some will remeber that Clinton was at the border and almost none will know about Andrew Johnson 
 


Clinton was impeached, as was Andrew Johnson.  The Senate voted in both cases not to remove them from office.  Nixon resigned before the impeachment proceedings in the House were concluded, therefore he was technically not impeached.


Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 05 2006 at 14:07
I don't know whether it will be of any comfort to people like Peter or the others who are appalled at the utter lack of learning of the younger generations, but I feel I have to relate what happened to me just yesterday morning, while I was travelling on a regional train from Calabria to Naples. Three girls were sitting right opposite me, and they were going to Rome to take an entry test in order to study at university. They were revising and doing sample tests... My goodness, their ignorance was absolutely appalling, and they were not teenagers anymore! They really had no clue about lots of important cultural events in Italian and European history - and this is Europe, for heaven's sake, not to mention a country that is prone to the habit of turning up its nose at other, 'newer' countries (as I often saw when living in Finland). How very, very sad...Cry


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 05 2006 at 17:12
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
I bet very few USA kids believe that Nixon was the only President involved in an impeachment, some will remeber that Clinton was at the border and almost none will know about Andrew Johnson 
 


Clinton was impeached, as was Andrew Johnson.  The Senate voted in both cases not to remove them from office.  Nixon resigned before the impeachment proceedings in the House were concluded, therefore he was technically not impeached.
 
That's why I said Impeachment procedures and not impeached.
 
Precisely I mentioned the impeachment and Assasination of Presidents because I made my first degree thesis about Removal and Vacancy of the President and one of te Constitutions I used to refer to a Presidential Government was oprecisely USA.
 
In Nixon's case the impeachment procedures stated, but he resigned if an anticipate pardon was granted to him to avoid the voting and sure removal plus probable imprisonment, something that was accepted to avoid a worst scandal.
 
But this is something that every school student in USA should know, this is your country.
 
Your quote was precise.
 
Iván
 
 


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Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: September 05 2006 at 18:03
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Originally posted by Dreamer Dreamer wrote:

There are people in my class who don't know the difference between left and right wing...


Living in a country evidently ruled by different levels of middle management, it's becoming increasingly difficult to tell the difference here, too
    
Well one has an elephant, one a donkey. Other than that they are interchangeable.


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 05 2006 at 23:35
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
I bet very few USA kids believe that Nixon was the only President involved in an impeachment, some will remeber that Clinton was at the border and almost none will know about Andrew Johnson 
 


Clinton was impeached, as was Andrew Johnson.  The Senate voted in both cases not to remove them from office.  Nixon resigned before the impeachment proceedings in the House were concluded, therefore he was technically not impeached.
 
That's why I said Impeachment procedures and not impeached.
 
Precisely I mentioned the impeachment and Assasination of Presidents because I made my first degree thesis about Removal and Vacancy of the President and one of te Constitutions I used to refer to a Presidential Government was oprecisely USA.
 
In Nixon's case the impeachment procedures stated, but he resigned if an anticipate pardon was granted to him to avoid the voting and sure removal plus probable imprisonment, something that was accepted to avoid a worst scandal.
 
But this is something that every school student in USA should know, this is your country.
 
Your quote was precise.
 
Iván
 
 


I have no doubt you know much more about US History than a good majority of the high school graduates in this country.


Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 05 2006 at 23:39
I can tell you that our high school focuses much more on 20th-21st century American History, not 18th-19th Century. We hit the big issues like The Revoutionary War, the War of 1812, The Civil War and so on, but fact such as the impeachment of Andrew Jackson are considered rather inconsequential at the high school level.

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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 05 2006 at 23:54
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

 
I have no doubt you know much more about US History than a good majority of the high school graduates in this country.
 
It's not me Natural Science, the only advantage to leave in a country like Perú (Well there are a lot bit not for the majorities), is that we have to learn from the rest of the world, so our education system (That is far from good except in private schools) tries to give a view of the rest of the world and most Peruvians see USA as the center of the world.
 
I'm sure every Latin American kid knows that Washington is the capital of USA but how many USA students know that Lima, Quito and La Paz are the capitals of Perú, Ecuador and Bolivia?
 
The problem of USA school system is that you are in fact the most powerful nation and the education system doesn't care about many things like hitory of the resyt of the world or even your own history.
 
Being a bit more humble will allow students to learn more about the rest of the world.
 
Iván


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Posted By: The Lost Chord
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 00:06
I KNEW he was black, i knew it

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"Only the sun knew why"


Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 01:17
Originally posted by The Lost Chord The Lost Chord wrote:

I KNEW he was black, i knew it
 
Off course he was black, but he wasn't the president of the US, he was first lady after Margaret Tatcher in the UK.
 
silly boy
 
 


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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT


Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 01:31

Since we have established that our great hero and former Prime Minister Winston Churchill was black (incidentally his mother was from the United States), and former PM  Maggie Thatcher was a woman (subject for discussion) when are the USA or USSR  going to have a black or female President? Wink 

 
 


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Prog Archives Tour Van


Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 01:35
Well if Arnie becomes the next President, he'll be saying "I'll be black"!

Oops! Embarrassed

Unless Condi suddenly decides to run for President, I cannot see it happening.


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Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 01:37
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

[QUOTE=NaturalScience]
 
I have no doubt you know much more about US History than a good majority of the high school graduates in this country.
[QUOTE]
 
It's not me Natural Science, the only advantage to leave in a country like Perú (Well there are a lot bit not for the majorities), is that we have to learn from the rest of the world, so our education system (That is far from good except in private schools) tries to give a view of the rest of the world and most Peruvians see USA as the center of the world.
 
I'm sure every Latin American kid knows that Washington is the capital of USA but how many USA students know that Lima, Quito and La Paz are the capitals of Perú, Ecuador and Bolivia?
 
The problem of USA school system is that you are in fact the most powerful nation and the education system doesn't care about many things like hitory of the resyt of the world or even your own history.
 
Being a bit more humble will allow students to learn more about the rest of the world.
 
Iván
Interesting enough, my first year of Spanish in high school was spent on memmorizing the entire Spanish speaking world. We had to memorize the founding dates too.


Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 02:04
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Well if Arnie becomes the next President, he'll be saying "I'll be black"!Oops! Unless Condi suddenly decides to run for President, I cannot see it happening.


He can't be president.

You have to have been born here to be able to run for office.Naturalized US citizens don't count.
    

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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 02:07
I know that, but I think he's hoping on some rule change, as I'm pretty sure he would love to be President.

Not that I'd hope the voting US citizens would vote him (I hope).

It's likely it could be Hillary Clinton though...


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Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 02:10
Hillary would be an interesting president. I'm just putting that out there.


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 14:28
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

I know that, but I think he's hoping on some rule change, as I'm pretty sure he would love to be President.

Not that I'd hope the voting US citizens would vote him (I hope).

It's likely it could be Hillary Clinton though...


"some rule change" would mean amending the Constitution - as you Brits would say, "not bloody likely".

As for Hillary, she will be the first woman to run for President (in a major party, at least - don't know if some woman affiliated with a fringe party ever tried to run), but I have my doubts about her victory.


Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 15:09
Originally posted by The Lost Chord The Lost Chord wrote:

I KNEW he was black, i knew it
 
Well, he was called Winston and Adolf Hitler hated him - there is some evidence to support the argument, especially as Bill Clinton referred to himself as the 'first black president of the USA' without any noticeable irony Wink.


-------------
'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom




Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 20:20
Reminds me of a skit I saw on Jay Leno.....of him asking random people questions.
 
Q: WHat president freed the slaves?
A: JFK
 
Q: What Ocean is Los Angeles on?
A: The Atlantic
 
Q: What is Mt. Rushmore
A: ISnt it that mountain that blows up?
 
Q: What presidents are on Mt. Rushmore?
A: George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and.... Gerald Ford
 
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
 


Posted By: darksinger
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 12:10
Originally posted by Borealis Borealis wrote:

^ Velvet Room posters haven't come here yet. Do they feel concerned, or it's too boring ?... Ermm 
 
 
 
we have produced a generation that expects endless entertainment, and instant gratification via shallow materialism and fashion.
 
Right on, Peter. What I am the most affraid is not the lack of interest in history (of course, there's a minimum requiered! Nothing in the example posted above should be accepted! You know, not everyone should or has interest in that...), its more about no desire of evolving, growing up spiritually or intellectually. Some said all they can talk about is beer, girl, rock'n'roll and ect... NO, they can't even do that! They says absolutely abything constructive, just throw up a couple of easy cliché all the time and share them with people that think the same too! It's just the 'I get a work, fund a familly, I die' thing. That's ALL.
 
In Québec's CEJEP (two-three year long school we usually enter at 17), There's is Philosophy class. We are one of the few place in the world that have the oppotunity of having philosophy classes at this low age. And I love those classes! But well, I am of the the very few that doesn't hate it! That make me crazy of seeing them... No one listen, they all are tired and frustrated and fix the clock so the class end. And I won't says what I hear from them... so stupid...
 
But, isn't this what the governement wants? Dumb workers that keeps their machines running without asking a question, or wanting an answer?
 
 
ummm...


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Posted By: darksinger
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 12:13
Originally posted by king of Siam king of Siam wrote:

Hillary would be an interesting president. I'm just putting that out there.
 
what would be interesting is a debate between the hildabeest and Ann Coulter. not to see where they stand or on what issues they agree, but just to see how soon it is before they trash the set trying to kill each other.


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Posted By: darksinger
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 12:17
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

 
I have no doubt you know much more about US History than a good majority of the high school graduates in this country.
 
It's not me Natural Science, the only advantage to leave in a country like Perú (Well there are a lot bit not for the majorities), is that we have to learn from the rest of the world, so our education system (That is far from good except in private schools) tries to give a view of the rest of the world and most Peruvians see USA as the center of the world.
 
I'm sure every Latin American kid knows that Washington is the capital of USA but how many USA students know that Lima, Quito and La Paz are the capitals of Perú, Ecuador and Bolivia?
 
The problem of USA school system is that you are in fact the most powerful nation and the education system doesn't care about many things like hitory of the resyt of the world or even your own history.
 
Being a bit more humble will allow students to learn more about the rest of the world.
 
Iván
 
I know enough about world history to know France can only win wars if led by delusional teenage girls and/or foreigners...I also know blowing up a civilian activist ship in the harbour of another sovereign country is construed as a "French military victory", as is the creation of the European Economic Community...


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Posted By: Rosescar
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 12:24
Originally posted by Hierophant Hierophant wrote:

Well... lets see
2 years of preschool
1 year of kindergarten
8 years of gradeschool
4 years of high school
1 year of college and counting...

Never once learned about:
The Vietnam War
The Gulf War
Iran Contra
The Constitution
The Cuban Missile Crisis

It seems that the schools love spending time on the civil war WWI & WWII and ancient civilizations. You usually get to around 1945 near the end of the year and by that time you'll be lucky if you learned anything new. I never actually touched on the Constitution of the United States until the last year of high school where we briefly touched on it in a college level class that you had to pay extra for. A good 10 years of my life was wasted picking out adjectives and verbs in sentences and trying to multiply two digit numbers. The standard 8 grades should be condensed into 4 and high school from 4 to 2 with an emphasis on math and science. 80% of the material taught in schools is repeated from the first grade. Angry


This goes for me, too. I especially hate the terrible emphasis on World War II; especially as a Dutchman, it's really almost all the history you get. I don't know why the hell World War I started - I'm supposed to learn that this schoolyear, and this is my second-to-last schoolyear o_o;; What's even worse is that I don't actually know why WWII started either.

As for the intelligence going down... I'm very much afraid so at certain moments. Not so much the marks of my classmates go down, but they're... culturally deprived. I think only me and maybe two others in my class know that Bach is not actually classical music - though, one of the good things is that some people atleast pretend they're very smart and distinguished.


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http://www.soundclick.com/rosescar/ - My music!

"THE AUDIENCE WERE generally drugged. (In Holland, always)." - Robert Fripp


Posted By: darksinger
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 12:52
Originally posted by Rosescar Rosescar wrote:

Originally posted by Hierophant Hierophant wrote:

Well... lets see
2 years of preschool
1 year of kindergarten
8 years of gradeschool
4 years of high school
1 year of college and counting...

Never once learned about:
The Vietnam War
The Gulf War
Iran Contra
The Constitution
The Cuban Missile Crisis

It seems that the schools love spending time on the civil war WWI & WWII and ancient civilizations. You usually get to around 1945 near the end of the year and by that time you'll be lucky if you learned anything new. I never actually touched on the Constitution of the United States until the last year of high school where we briefly touched on it in a college level class that you had to pay extra for. A good 10 years of my life was wasted picking out adjectives and verbs in sentences and trying to multiply two digit numbers. The standard 8 grades should be condensed into 4 and high school from 4 to 2 with an emphasis on math and science. 80% of the material taught in schools is repeated from the first grade. Angry


This goes for me, too. I especially hate the terrible emphasis on World War II; especially as a Dutchman, it's really almost all the history you get. I don't know why the hell World War I started - I'm supposed to learn that this schoolyear, and this is my second-to-last schoolyear o_o;; What's even worse is that I don't actually know why WWII started either.

As for the intelligence going down... I'm very much afraid so at certain moments. Not so much the marks of my classmates go down, but they're... culturally deprived. I think only me and maybe two others in my class know that Bach is not actually classical music - though, one of the good things is that some people atleast pretend they're very smart and distinguished.
 
World War One started as a result, famously, of an assassination of a Prince.
 
World War Two started because of a silly little homicidal maniac named Adolph Hitler and his notion he'd like to own the world.
 
Of the two, the real "world" war was WW2-most of WW1, or the Great War, was confined primarily to Europe.
 
The Gulf War initially was a dispute over oil drilling rights between Iraq and Kuwait, which the UUSA and the UN said had to be solved by them and Saddam Hussein interpreted that as "Go and destroy Kuwait".
 
The Vietnam War and The Korean War were conflagrations that were part of the Cold war actually, as was the Soviet-Afghanistan War. the Cuban Missile Crisis was actually this: The USA had built missile bases in Turkey or some place on the Caspian Sea (I think it was the Caspian) within site of the vacation area of I think it was Kruschev (sp?). The USSR, known for its sense of humour, decided to build missile bases in Cuba as a response, not realising the Kennedys were a couple of potential homicidal maniacs (unlike Teddy, who actually is). Eventually, an agreement would be reached that the USA would remove the offending missile bases and the Russians ceased building theirs in Cuba, but the whole thing was spun to look like Kennedy stopped this whole unistigated event by the USSR.


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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 12:55

My history teacher was great, but as said before...we didnt go over alot of stuff.

WWII we covered in one day, Korea in....20 minutes
Hell, the 1960's on was basically a 3 day blur. Luckilly he inspired me to actually want and do research outside the class on all that stuff.


Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 13:02
Actually, that Prince was Archduke Franz Ferdinand and he was shot by a Serbian man, Gavrilo Princip, in the city of Sarajevo (then in Bosnia).  Princip was a member of Young Bosnia.

Now, the shooting of an Austrian Archduke in Sarajevo wouldn't normally start a war, so obviously there was more to it than that.  The Great War is one of those odd wars, whereby it was started over something that seemed to be isolated from most of the world, yet escalated into something much bigger.  There are still debates now as to what exactly the causes were, as the assassination was just the final catalyst.


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Posted By: darksinger
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 13:05
What bothered me later was alot of cool stuff was skimmed over horribly...
 
for example-ancient civilizations were confined primarily to Egypt, Greece and Rome, with only a skimming on the Near Eastern civilizations of Assyria, Babylon and Sumeria, which I later became more interested in the art of that region. We did even touch Celts, the African civilaztions such as Ethiopia, the far eastern civilizations or the american civilizations. This was before the Core Curriculum Content standards, which dictate what kids learn when. we knew about the germanic invasions and migrations, but we did not know about the Vikings, except Leif Ericksson discovered America. we knew Charlemange existed and was influential, but not that there was a Carolingian (sp?) Renaissance before the more noted Renassiance (first person with an Annie Haslam joke will be going down!).
 
I learned more about ancient and medieval history from Art History survey one, which was dedicated solely to art and its role prior to the Renaissance.


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Posted By: darksinger
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 13:10
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Actually, that Prince was Archduke Franz Ferdinand and he was shot by a Serbian man, Gavrilo Princip, in the city of Sarajevo (then in Bosnia).  Princip was a member of Young Bosnia.

Now, the shooting of an Austrian Archduke in Sarajevo wouldn't normally start a war, so obviously there was more to it than that.  The Great War is one of those odd wars, whereby it was started over something that seemed to be isolated from most of the world, yet escalated into something much bigger.  There are still debates now as to what exactly the causes were, as the assassination was just the final catalyst.
 
One of the big problems with WW1 was that the concepts were still rooted in medieval and neo-classical thought-a war would not start over an assassination now. The big tragedy of it was these thoughts did not catch up to the modern weaponry used. Trench warfare is good in the wars of the 1700's and 1800's, but artillery and aeroplanes made it obsolete, for example.
 
I think involvement on the level it was on was because of the treaties involved-the same reason WW2 escalated as fast as it did.


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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 13:14
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Actually, that Prince was Archduke Franz Ferdinand and he was shot by a Serbian man, Gavrilo Princip, in the city of Sarajevo (then in Bosnia).  Princip was a member of Young Bosnia.

Now, the shooting of an Austrian Archduke in Sarajevo wouldn't normally start a war, so obviously there was more to it than that.  The Great War is one of those odd wars, whereby it was started over something that seemed to be isolated from most of the world, yet escalated into something much bigger.  There are still debates now as to what exactly the causes were, as the assassination was just the final catalyst.
 
That definatley was the final straw, but as he said  there was ALOT more to it.
Basically, since the 1870s (i believe) Germany was growing, in all ways. WHich was  a threat to the current world leaders (Britian, France). So Allinaces, on both sides were formed. Both sides built up their militaries just incase.
The Balkans was a land of strife   as many people were fighting over control of it.
The assassination was indeed the final straw, tensions broke. I believe it was Britian hat declared war on Germany...thus France and Russia (obliged due to their alliance) got dragged in. The ottoman empire and austria-hungary went with Germany (although Germany basically fought it all)
Causes of WWI:
Economic Competition
Militarism
Nationalism
Entangling Alliances


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 13:15
For those going to college now, try to fill in all the gaps that were left by your high school education, particularly in history as shown by the posts above.  My university in particular has one of the finest history departments in the country, and I took classes like History of the Third Reich and History of the French Revolution from world renowned experts in those topics.  Indeed, I even took a class called the History of the 1960s because that time period was never covered in any high school class.


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 13:26
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

For those going to college now, try to fill in all the gaps that were left by your high school education, particularly in history as shown by the posts above.  My university in particular has one of the finest history departments in the country, and I took classes like History of the Third Reich and History of the French Revolution from world renowned experts in those topics.  Indeed, I even took a class called the History of the 1960s because that time period was never covered in any high school class.
 
Good point, I really wish there was a class on just the 1960's....so much happened. I know my school has a course on Nazi Germany though.


Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 15:02
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Actually, that Prince was Archduke Franz Ferdinand and he was shot by a Serbian man, Gavrilo Princip, in the city of Sarajevo (then in Bosnia).  Princip was a member of Young Bosnia.

Now, the shooting of an Austrian Archduke in Sarajevo wouldn't normally start a war, so obviously there was more to it than that.  The Great War is one of those odd wars, whereby it was started over something that seemed to be isolated from most of the world, yet escalated into something much bigger.  There are still debates now as to what exactly the causes were, as the assassination was just the final catalyst.
 
That definatley was the final straw, but as he said  there was ALOT more to it.
Basically, since the 1870s (i believe) Germany was growing, in all ways. WHich was  a threat to the current world leaders (Britian, France). So Allinaces, on both sides were formed. Both sides built up their militaries just incase.
The Balkans was a land of strife   as many people were fighting over control of it.
The assassination was indeed the final straw, tensions broke. I believe it was Britian hat declared war on Germany...thus France and Russia (obliged due to their alliance) got dragged in. The ottoman empire and austria-hungary went with Germany (although Germany basically fought it all)
Causes of WWI:
Economic Competition
Militarism
Nationalism
Entangling Alliances


There were treaties as you said, Russia, France and Britain had a mutual protection allance as did Germany, Austro-Hungarian and The Ottoman Empire's. Some "brilliant" German general had this plan that Germany would attack France and then, since it would take so long for the massive Russian army to deploy they (the Germans) would be able to prepare themselfes to counter this attack after finishing off the French. ( I would like to point out that I learnt all this in History 6 years ago, so I may be a little out on some things). I never did learn why the Germans didnt take into account the British, I suspect that they relied on the old animocity between us and the French to prevent us from taking part, which it didnt.

@Darksinger, WWII would have escalated just as fast regadless of certain treaties. The British may have got involved because of Germany's invasion of Poland but by the time the British launched its forces into Europe, they had already attacked France and that would have drawn us into the conflict anyway.


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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005



Posted By: darksinger
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 15:14
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Actually, that Prince was Archduke Franz Ferdinand and he was shot by a Serbian man, Gavrilo Princip, in the city of Sarajevo (then in Bosnia).  Princip was a member of Young Bosnia.

Now, the shooting of an Austrian Archduke in Sarajevo wouldn't normally start a war, so obviously there was more to it than that.  The Great War is one of those odd wars, whereby it was started over something that seemed to be isolated from most of the world, yet escalated into something much bigger.  There are still debates now as to what exactly the causes were, as the assassination was just the final catalyst.
 
thanks on the corrections, btw


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Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:41
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Actually, that Prince was Archduke Franz Ferdinand and he was shot by a Serbian man, Gavrilo Princip, in the city of Sarajevo (then in Bosnia).  Princip was a member of Young Bosnia.

Now, the shooting of an Austrian Archduke in Sarajevo wouldn't normally start a war, so obviously there was more to it than that.  The Great War is one of those odd wars, whereby it was started over something that seemed to be isolated from most of the world, yet escalated into something much bigger.  There are still debates now as to what exactly the causes were, as the assassination was just the final catalyst.
 
That definatley was the final straw, but as he said  there was ALOT more to it.
Basically, since the 1870s (i believe) Germany was growing, in all ways. WHich was  a threat to the current world leaders (Britian, France). So Allinaces, on both sides were formed. Both sides built up their militaries just incase.
The Balkans was a land of strife   as many people were fighting over control of it.
The assassination was indeed the final straw, tensions broke. I believe it was Britian hat declared war on Germany...thus France and Russia (obliged due to their alliance) got dragged in. The ottoman empire and austria-hungary went with Germany (although Germany basically fought it all)


I thought it went like this (you're right up until the order of decalarations of war):

There were two alliances, on one side (The Triple Entente which was formed from the Anglo-Russian Entente and the Entente Cordiale) and on the other (Dual Alliance) were Germany and Austria-Hungary.
After the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia. Because of a previous arrangement Russia had to intervene to defend Serbia, leading to Germany declaring war on Russia. Germany expects (rightly) that France will mobilize against them so the Sclieffen plan is put into action France then mobilizes against Germany. As part of the Schlieffen plan, Germany invades Belgium, bringing Britain (and her colonies) into the war.

The reason why Germany overlooked Britain was because her army was so small, Germany expected Britain to stay out of the war, or at the least wait a while so that she could gather strength.


Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 13:44
Originally posted by Forgotten Son Forgotten Son wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Actually, that Prince was Archduke Franz Ferdinand and he was shot by a Serbian man, Gavrilo Princip, in the city of Sarajevo (then in Bosnia).  Princip was a member of Young Bosnia.

Now, the shooting of an Austrian Archduke in Sarajevo wouldn't normally start a war, so obviously there was more to it than that.  The Great War is one of those odd wars, whereby it was started over something that seemed to be isolated from most of the world, yet escalated into something much bigger.  There are still debates now as to what exactly the causes were, as the assassination was just the final catalyst.
 
That definatley was the final straw, but as he said  there was ALOT more to it.
Basically, since the 1870s (i believe) Germany was growing, in all ways. WHich was  a threat to the current world leaders (Britian, France). So Allinaces, on both sides were formed. Both sides built up their militaries just incase.
The Balkans was a land of strife   as many people were fighting over control of it.
The assassination was indeed the final straw, tensions broke. I believe it was Britian hat declared war on Germany...thus France and Russia (obliged due to their alliance) got dragged in. The ottoman empire and austria-hungary went with Germany (although Germany basically fought it all)


I thought it went like this (you're right up until the order of decalarations of war):

There were two alliances, on one side (The Triple Entente which was formed from the Anglo-Russian Entente and the Entente Cordiale) and on the other (Dual Alliance) were Germany and Austria-Hungary.
After the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia. Because of a previous arrangement Russia had to intervene to defend Serbia, leading to Germany declaring war on Russia. Germany expects (rightly) that France will mobilize against them so the Sclieffen plan is put into action France then mobilizes against Germany. As part of the Schlieffen plan, Germany invades Belgium, bringing Britain (and her colonies) into the war.

The reason why Germany overlooked Britain was because her army was so small, Germany expected Britain to stay out of the war, or at the least wait a while so that she could gather strength.


My thanks Forgottan Son, I knew I had forgotten some things.


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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005



Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 14:30
Originally posted by Forgotten Son Forgotten Son wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Actually, that Prince was Archduke Franz Ferdinand and he was shot by a Serbian man, Gavrilo Princip, in the city of Sarajevo (then in Bosnia).  Princip was a member of Young Bosnia.

Now, the shooting of an Austrian Archduke in Sarajevo wouldn't normally start a war, so obviously there was more to it than that.  The Great War is one of those odd wars, whereby it was started over something that seemed to be isolated from most of the world, yet escalated into something much bigger.  There are still debates now as to what exactly the causes were, as the assassination was just the final catalyst.
 
That definatley was the final straw, but as he said  there was ALOT more to it.
Basically, since the 1870s (i believe) Germany was growing, in all ways. WHich was  a threat to the current world leaders (Britian, France). So Allinaces, on both sides were formed. Both sides built up their militaries just incase.
The Balkans was a land of strife   as many people were fighting over control of it.
The assassination was indeed the final straw, tensions broke. I believe it was Britian hat declared war on Germany...thus France and Russia (obliged due to their alliance) got dragged in. The ottoman empire and austria-hungary went with Germany (although Germany basically fought it all)


I thought it went like this (you're right up until the order of decalarations of war):

There were two alliances, on one side (The Triple Entente which was formed from the Anglo-Russian Entente and the Entente Cordiale) and on the other (Dual Alliance) were Germany and Austria-Hungary.
After the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia. Because of a previous arrangement Russia had to intervene to defend Serbia, leading to Germany declaring war on Russia. Germany expects (rightly) that France will mobilize against them so the Sclieffen plan is put into action France then mobilizes against Germany. As part of the Schlieffen plan, Germany invades Belgium, bringing Britain (and her colonies) into the war.

The reason why Germany overlooked Britain was because her army was so small, Germany expected Britain to stay out of the war, or at the least wait a while so that she could gather strength.
 
yea....I believe your right. Have to admit...I did pretty good considering I learned that over 2 years ago


Posted By: Bryan
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 16:45
I find reading this extremely interesting, since I took a history 12 course last year and learned quite a bit about Communist Russia, China, WWII, The Cold War, the collapse of the Berlin Wall, and quite a few of these other things everyone else is saying they missed out on (having an abysmal teacher made it a bit difficult to learn it mind you, but it was certainly all there).



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