prog rap?
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25703
Printed Date: February 23 2025 at 04:39
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Topic: prog rap?
Posted By: wodaemang
Subject: prog rap?
Date Posted: July 04 2006 at 18:38
| i would say there is such a thing seeing as how many of the groups of hte hip hop "counter-culture" such as anticon and anti-pop consortum...i recommend some of you guys checking it out, would any of you agree that there is such a thing as progressive hip hop/rap? |
Replies:
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: July 04 2006 at 19:12
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Again; DJ Shadow's Endtroducing... came out in 1996. Much of what's on
Ninja Tune and Mo' Wax is definitely forward-looking and as far from
the mainstream of Rap as good Prog is from mainstream Rock. -------------  
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 04 2006 at 19:20
Here's a recommendation: (David Holmes Presents The Free Association) Not exactly Rap, but as close as my CD collection gets to Rap.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: Asyte2c00
Date Posted: July 04 2006 at 22:10
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Only Bad can come out of Prog Rap. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 04 2006 at 22:15
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Yikes, seems like a terrible "Deja Vou".
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 00:49
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"Prog Rap." Scary. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 00:58
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The open-mindedness is palpable. :P
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Posted By: wodaemang
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 01:48
| all i have to say is way to be open minded.... some prog fans are incredibly closed minded |
Posted By: Australian
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 02:26
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Tencnically Rap is spoken lyrics so Steve Hackett's Dalktown is a rap. ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 03:02
One simple question:
There's a thread about Prog Metal, and I read many people saying they HATE Prog Metal but nobody has accused them of being close minded.
Why in hell can't we hate RAP???????
Iván -------------
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wodaemang wrote:Posted By: Dalkaen
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 03:15
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I'd be very interesting in checking out some "prog rap." I know there has to be some validity in this genre somewhere.
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 03:23
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Be an open-minded hater all you want to, Ivan, and maybe just stay away
from the thread? It starts with an innocent and valid question. My answer is yes, of course. All genres can be progressive. No intention of trying to get any Hip Hop included in the archives or anything. Again I'd like to reccomend Deep Puddle Dynamics: The Tate of Rain...Why Kneel . Its really the whole Anticon (nine of them) collective on one record. Not the most prog or experimental I've ever heard, just the best. It's intelligent, complex and ends with a multipart (five parts) suite. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 06:24
| Sorry I've been with prog since the very start, when 'progressive' in prog music or rock meant what it said. So in my mind, the hybridisation of rock with any other musical genre has always been valid - although not a fan of 99% of rap, rap is as valid as the next music - if the result sounds good. Therefore I get very pissed at these johnny come lately fans of prog who pontificate on what isn't acceptable, and liberally misuse the word "hate" (call yourselves 'retro prog fans' guys). The discussion has been done here too many times with punk - when there are recordings that show that the likes of Fripp, Hillage, Hammell, Chris Spedding have recorded punk music. Again with rap - as stated several times before in PA, reputable prog artists such as Jon Anderson are into rap (check his collaboration with Bela Fleck) - as has been written about the late Miles Davis. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 07:00
| Listen to Deltron 3030 and then tell me you hate rap. This is some of the most progressive music I've heard in ages. |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 07:03
 Other recommended Prog Hip Hop albums include:
cLOUDDEAD - s/t
Madvillain - Madvillainy
rjd2 - dead ringer
DJ Shadow - Endtroducing...
Dr. Octagon - Dr. Octagonecologyst
Dalek - Absence
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 08:40
Yes indeed!  ------------- http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic ALTAIC "Oceans Down You'll Lie" coming soon |
Posted By: Zadok
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 11:04
| Dalek are brilliant. Patton-heads should also check out his General Patton vs the X-ecutioners project, on Ipecac. Not sure if that's the right spelling... |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 17:21
Why should I stay away? People with all freedom say here they hatr Genesis, Yes,or in even more cases ELP, people say they hate Prog Metal, why should we stay quiet about Rap?
In firdst place this thread should be in non Prog music, because like it or not, Rap is not Prog in this forum and I believe in no Prog Forum.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 18:03
No one wants to start a fight here. As far as I have understood things, no one has told you not to critisize rap, so there's nothing to feel insulted about. You have full freedom to hate rap.  However, you are definitely right about this thread being in the wrong place. Because there isn't any progressive rap (if such a thing exists) in the archives yet. It was good that you pointed this out |
Posted By: pepo
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 18:12
| There's an After Crying Song from De Profundis Called Modern Idok (modern times) that is sung in a vaguely rap style with the orchestra in the background and some reply by the female choir. I don't think it was a bad song but it's not my favourite one. I don't think that rap would meet prog successfully because rap is like vocal improvisation and in prog the vocals must be at the same level as the music. I think it would be a step backwards. |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 18:12
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Now for my personal views on the subject. It has been said already, any kind of music can be progressive, so of course rap can be aswell. However, I think there will be a long while before prog rap artists get included in the archives. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure we'll ever have a prog rap section here. Don't get me wrong though, I have nothing against rap (certainly not if it's progressive!), and I have nothing against a possible inclusion of prog rap artists. Finally, just a quick thought: It's important to let people like any kind of music. If one doesn't like a particular genre, one must still let other people like it. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 18:58
I'm not to impressed by people that says they hate any kind of genre, and I can't see a good reason for you to contribute to this thread by saying: I hate hip-hop. Then you ask us why you can't hate hip-hop, when people that hate prog metal are 'allowed'? Has anyone here in this thread told you they hate Genesis, Yes or ELP? Aren't you a grown man way past your teens? ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 19:03
| Rocktopus is right. You are acting a little immature Ivan. No offense, just saying as it is. |
Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 19:04
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Posted By: wodaemang
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 23:33
deep puddle is amazing, i purchased that album just over a year ago, if u want to check out some other prog rap albums, check out anything by anticon, they are all relatively good, but maybe try el-p's "fantastic damage", or the self titled album by 13&god both take soem getting used to, but when u get used to it, its pretty good....and to the person with the deltron reccomendation, good call
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 00:21
But it's true, I hate it, all of what i heard, I can't stand it, isn't it valid to express your opinion?
I don't believe (For what I heard) that this should be a topic in a Prog Forum, that's my 100% honest opinion and I'm not used to lie.
Lately there's almost always a new thread about Prog Rap and /or Hip Hop, I don't simply agree with that, there was a poll, most people don't believe in it, why must we be forced to have this threads again and again?
If this thread would have started where it belongs I won't probably even cared for it, It has been moved to non Prog and that's ok, that's all.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 01:53
While some Rap might be called "progressive", I agree that it's neither "Prog" nor "Rock", and that's why it doesn't belong here. Metal and Jazz-Fusion are closely related to Rock, but any other sub genre like Country, Pop, Modern Electronic etc.. should be discussed elsewhere ... maybe on my website! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 02:20
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Prog aint' Rock either, no more than it's Country, Jazz or Pop, anyway.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 02:22
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^ Sorry, I didn't know that.
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 03:51
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^Just listen and compare, Mike. It's not rocket science.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 03:58
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The term "Prog Rock" is valid ... just listen to Yes, Genesis or any other classic Prog band. Classic Prog is based on Rock, and Rock in general is indeed the common element of all the bands in the archives (although some from Progressive Electronic and Post-Rock/Avant are stretching it quite a bit). BTW: If you really insist that Classic Prog doesn't have anything to do with Rock, I guess it would be best if you created a separate thread. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 04:35
I guess Its a valid, but also a useless and pointless opinion to state. Threads get started in wrong areas every day here, then they eventually get moved. How can you even care about that? I don't understand everything you write here about some some poll or thread that was almost made(?), but now its all OK? You are very active in many threads that has a even less natural place here. This is about Hip-Hop which is a music genre. And do we believe it can be progressive? The rest of us says yes it can, and reccomend each other titles and artists we think are good examples. You say you hate it. Wodaemang: I will defeantly check out more Anticon related. Already know cLOUDDEAD. I'm curious about most of the stuff mentioned here that I haven't heard yet. I'm not gonna pretend its easy to find lots of great hip-hop. El-p, funny name. I think I'll start with Dalek. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 04:47
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 05:05
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^ I didn't say Rock n Roll, I said "Rock". That's a very broad genre, it surely includes Prog Rock. A song doesn't need to resemble "Rock Around the Clock" in order to be part of the Rock genre. And the songs you mentioned above are progressive ... that means that they expanded the boundaries of the genre, and are artistically advanced in comparison to "Simple Rock" music. But when you're determining the genre of a band you cannot just pick the songs that prove your point and discard those that conflict. Even Yes and Genesis wrote simple songs, and even in their prog epics there are passages which simply "rock". The band configuration and use of instruments also suggests that it's Rock - drums, bass, guitar, keyboards, vocals. I wonder why I even bother to try to explain it ... it is so obvious. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 05:25
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Reggae has drums, bass, guitar, keyboards and vocals, so...what's your point with that? And yes, it fits with Rock in the broad sense, but I now see all these aspects of Rock in the more narrow and directly Blues-based sense being accepted as something neither worth commenting on in a band's sound, nor something that would make the band be considered less of a Prog band, "since after all it's called Prog Rock". You can't have it both ways. Either it's Rock in the broad sense, in which case Rock n Roll and AOR aren't natural matches with Prog, but part of a hybrid. Or it's Rock in the narrwo sense, in which case I have to ask where you hear much if that in the classic bands of Prog during their apex years. The overt aspects of Rock-in-the-narrow-sense (which - please - is not analogous with "simple" - it's a specific melodic/harmonic/structural style) in the bands above is minor, no matter which songs you pick. Even something as rockin' as I've Seen All Good People modulates through several keys in a way most Rock n Roll doesn't, yet it is still an absolute anomaly in the Yes songbook pre-1980. Or a track like Great Deceiver, which builds on a Blues base, still has many aspects to offset that, and again, is a bit of a standout in the KC ouevre. -------------
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Posted By: Rosescar
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 05:39
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Actually, there even is rap with some progressive tendencies in the more or less mainstream - anyone ever heard of Wyclef Jean from the Fugees? He made something of a concept album called Carnival. It uses classical music, he plays his own instruments and there are interludes with sound effects etc. Besides, what is rock's relation to folk? We got prog folk here. I understand the rock-metal relation, but folk? And electronic? ------------- http://www.soundclick.com/rosescar/ - My music! "THE AUDIENCE WERE generally drugged. (In Holland, always)." - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 05:48
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^Except Wyclef makes extremely pandering and chart-oriented music.
Fugees were one of the bands that killed innovation in mainstream
Hip-hop by making it all about crappy covers andusing old hit samples
without adding anything to it but a bad Rap. Plus Wyclef can't Rap for
sh*t - he's got as much flow as my Grandma, dead and buried. That The Fugees (and Lauryn Hill) were briefly the darlings of Rock journalists who'd never heard much actual Rap and could use it as an easy way to seem open-minded doesn't help. -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 06:06
Why "hybrid" ... Prog Rock is not a combination of two genres, as "Prog" isn't a genre. It is a way of thinking/composing, an attitude, a concept. "Prog Rock" is a specialized form of Rock music which takes away much of the mainstream qualities and replaces them by elements of Art Music ... but it never completely loses the Rock heritage (you can argue about Zeuhl, but then again it is related to Krautrock thematically and through the musicians). Some bands are more progressive, others are closer to mainstream, some are both (depending on which song you pick). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 06:14
But you're right, it's not a hybrid. But I have to wonder how far you need to go "not to lose the Rock". Is there anything on seminal Progressive Rock albums like Foxtrot, Tales, Red or H to He that really sounds in any way like Rock music as defined by Rolling Stones? Is there even a three-second snippet that could be mistaken for a band like that? I'd say the answer is no. -------------
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Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 06:17
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Alternativ rap is usually pretty progressive sometimes, at least experimental. ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 06:22
I said: "Prog" isn't a genre. Having trouble reading sentences as simple as that? We're trying to be precise here, so if I write "Prog" in a discussion like this you can be pretty sure that I don't mean "progressive Rock".
"Rock" does not equal "Rolling Stones". Try to think of the various Rock groups as part of a genre tree with "Rock" as the root element. The Rolling Stones are part of a sub genre which is in an entirely different branch than most Prog Rock groups. But they're growing on the same genre tree in the forest which is music. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Rosescar
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 06:33
But he does play his own instrument and uses classical music samples! Those are prog rock tendencies. ------------- http://www.soundclick.com/rosescar/ - My music! "THE AUDIENCE WERE generally drugged. (In Holland, always)." - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 06:44
And as noted; if you're going to maintain that Prog (which is shorthand for "Progressive Rock" and nothing else - I have no idea how you're using it) is still firmly attached to the Rock tree, rather than an acorn that has grown into an entirely new plant, then there should be absolutely no need to separate Prog Metal from Progressive Rock, since Metal is just another branch, just like Rock n Roll or AOR. -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 06:51
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^ Metal is a really thick branch which separated from Rock in a really early phase. And it contains nearly as many sub branches as the "main" branch of Rock. I have no problems with Metal as a sub genre of Rock ... but Prog Metal is not a direct sub genre of Prog Rock. First Metal separated from Rock and continued to grow for nearly a decade, until Prog Metal developed from that branch. So technically it is not a child node, but a remote sibling ... something like a cousin. Yet the influence of Prog Rock is so strong that in a way (and leaving the tree model) Prog Metal can be seen as a sub genre of Prog Rock. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 07:41
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^Right. But regular Rock, Radio Rock and AOR are not separate branches,
and thus should be seen as inherent aspects of Progressive Rock, even
though few of the originators of the genre used such elements?
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 08:00
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^ those are two different questions. 1. Surely these are separate branches - although I'm not sure if I'd call a sub genre of Rock "regular Rock" (it's confusing). 2. A branch can influence another even if they're not part of the same hierarchy ... real life is more complex than a tree model. The point is: If you model non-prog music as a forest of trees ("Rock", "Pop", "Jazz", "Electronic" etc) and then you'd like to add Prog to this model, introducing another tree labeled "Prog" is not the best solution IMO. Wouldn't it be better to model "Prog" as a part of the Rock tree ... or indeed parts on all these trees, if you see "Prog" as "progressive Rock" (which we all do). So it's: "Each tree has a few progressive branches" vs. "There is one completely progressive tree with different branches for the various genres, which all have their own tree for the non-progressive stuff". Phew ... this reminds me of some problems I had to solve for my diploma! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 14:56
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Both of you have valid points, but the discussion is off-topic.
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 16:27
I hate Rap. Although that's better than any other Rap I've heard. ------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine." Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 02:44
Not entirely ... in the forest of genre trees which I described there's also an Electronic tree with a Rap branch, and maybe even a tiny Prog twig. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Australian
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 03:19
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Perhaps in 30 years prog rap will be invented. -------------
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