Making a statement...
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Report abuse here
Forum Description: Let us know about inappropriate reviews, posts, PMs, etc.
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24191
Printed Date: December 04 2024 at 11:37
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Making a statement...
Posted By: Thyme Traveler
Subject: Making a statement...
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 17:21
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Just a few comments about ratings by users and the way some use it to "make a statement"... (1) We've all seen how SEBTP, CTTE, and now WYWH have a dispprortionate amount of "1" ratings (at least considering the fact that the vast majority of people acknowledge these albums as some of the most important prog albums ever). I myself haven't got around to rating albums and while I consider SEBTP my favorite prog album and the temptation is there to abuse the system by giving those other albums a "1", I think when I get around to it I will also give those other ones "5's" as well(because they are worthy of the highest mark). Just wondering how many who think Selling is the best don't take the high road and instead give CTTE and WYWH "1's" in order to nudge the ratings in the direction it should go. Or Yes fans who think "Close to the Edge" should remain on top and do the same. Or Pink Floyd fans who are now in striking range.
(2) We've all disagreed with one band or another being in the archive. For many, it's Styx or Triumph or the Beatles. Take a look at http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=6921 - this reviewer who rated every Beatles album a "1" and only bothered to put a review(a half-arse one at that) for one of them. ------------- Fire up the flux capacitor ! We're taking this Delorean through all four dimensions. What is the future of prog ? Genesis reunion ? I'm not telling!That could upset the thyme/space continuum. |
Replies:
Posted By: Psychedelia
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 18:53
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I agree this is stupid and ruins the system for everyone, i gave Selling England... a two but that is because i think thats what it deserves. People should rate albums objectively on their own merit
------------- Another emotional suicide, overdosed on sentiment and pride |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 19:00
^Two!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 05:07
| There are enough ratings of the top albums now to render the odd manipulative one meaningless. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 05:17
| Going through the entire Beatles catalogue and giving them all 1 star without comment is a major abuse of the system and those reviews should be removed. |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 06:46
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If people can explain their rating,whatever it may be,no problem by me.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 06:54
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I think that the 1 star Beatles ratings of that user are abuse and should be deleted from the database.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: crimson thing
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 09:30
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I've never actually had the courage to review any album, but not being a great fan of the Beatles, I'd be sorely tempted to give most of their stuff one star only - so does that mean my (hypothetical) reviews would be/should be removed?
Another point - obvious, I'm sure to many of you. Unless every reviewer reviews every album, there will be a bias of some sort to the system, simply by virtue of what is not reviewed. Most people (I imagine) are driven to review that which they find amazingly good or staggeringly awful, so 5* & 1* reviews will occur disproportionately (disp. from the total population of potential ratings, that is, not necessarily that there are more eg 5* than 3* in the actual ratings).
None of which really matters a hoot, unless you are the kind of person who lies awake at night grinding their teeth at the iniquity (and the inequity) of Fiddler's Todger's fine album "Speak to the Crack" lying 16 places (sixteen places !!!!!) behind The Trolls of Downing Street's ridiculous double concept album "Bush has a brain - honest".
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Posted By: Joolz
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 09:31
Yep  . Getting rid, simply because we disagree with the rating, is censorship, a dirty word in my book and I wouldn't like to see it happen. But, it seems this person needs to justify his/her position in this case.The problem, IMO, is allowing ratings without some form of backup. It is my belief that ALL ratings should have written backup, either in the form of a proper review, or as a shorter comment. At the moment, PA has this thing called 'Review' which can be any length. But, if it is shorter than 200 characters it is not displayed, and if it exceeds 200 chars but is still otherwise on the short side it nearly always gets pulled because someone thinks it doesn't say enough for a review [even though we allow ratings without reviews]. Well, I agree - a few words usually don't make a good review (not always), but it is better to say something. So, why not make a clear distinction between shorter COMMENTS and full REVIEWS. This way people can simply explain their rating in a couple of sentences while others can contribute to the review system. |
Ricochet wrote:Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 11:08
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I've noticed it with lesser known bands also. Gnidrolog for example. Last time I looked a few weeks a go, "In Spite of Harry's Toe-nail" had one 1 star rating, whilst the rest were 5 star ratings and 3 reviews, two of which were by well respected reviewers. Maybe that 1 star was justified, but there was no review... maybe it was under 200 words and so therefore doesn't show, or maybe it was just given a 1, to stop it being a 5 star rated album, which seems more likely to me. I cannot see how anyone can even being to give that album 1 star. Yes, they may not enjoy it, but the musicianship is great and is worth a 2 alone in my opinion. I love the album, so I'd personally rate it 5 too. It is indeed a problem, but I cannot see any simple way of alleviating it, unfortunately. They're here to stay. -------------   
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Posted By: crimson thing
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 13:38
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Hmmm....I wrote something about GnarledOldLog's ...toenail... album elsewhere..........I bought it (as a double with LadyLake) a few days ago.....and all those who gave it 5* had better avoid my part of the world for a while.......underwhelmed would be a polite way of putting it........ Of course these ratings are subjective, but I can't allow unopposed praise of what I thought was a very poor album. If you want to talk musicianship, I would argue that they had no idea how to integrate the flute, oboe & cello with the standard rock band instruments. It was extremely amateurish. Jim Royle would have an apposite comment for them........(And I've also just heard VdGG "Present" & Riverside's second - for the first time, never having heard either band before (cue gasps of shock from the PA elite!), and was pleasantly surprised by both - so it's not just the shock of the new.) I think if I could be at all bothered to rate the ...toenail... album, I doubt I could raise the enthusiasm to write 200 charactersworth of review.....but that wouldn't mean I hadn't thought about it, or that my opinion was worthless....... |
Posted By: Tristan Mulders
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 18:21
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I for one only vote when I can upload a review with the vote...
------------- Interested in my reviews? You can find them http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=784 - HERE "...He will search until He's found a Way to take the Days..." |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 18:36
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It's a good system we have here, but there is abuse of the system from time to time.
Whilst i agree that with some of the main albums a few manipulative 1* ratings really make no odds, they really do make a difference with releases that have few reviews...
I have noticed on a couple of titles whilst the reviews are pretty good the album has a poor rating...........because of the 1*trolls at work.
Giving a rating without a review is great in principle for our many non-english speakers, but it does give the bad guys a back door for havoc.
unfortunately it is a subject that will go around and around, I don't see an easy soloution........
but those 1* idiots really cheese me off!........plain cowardice, hiding behind a rule that was set up in the system for all the good reasons.
P-C
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Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 23:11
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Part of the solution is that ratings are ponderated now... one rating backed by a valid review weighs more than one rating without a review. ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 23:14
I agree witth you, but that's not the point, I would rate Help or Hard Days Night with no more than two stars if I'm in good mood, because IMO is just lollypop music, I'm entitled to my opinion if I support it.
What I hate is that some of us put all our effort in adding a band, making a bio (After searching for data in the most strange places), taking the tedious work of adding the Discography (Some bands have 20 or 30 albums) and just after that we make a careful review of an album we love dearly just to find somebody has rated it with one star while you were adding the other albums without saying a fu**ing word.
Believe me, this is frustrating, I honestly don't know if the guy has even listened the album or just wants to be the first to rate it.
Iván
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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: June 05 2006 at 02:41
as i am a fan of the Beatles, have followed them since 1963, i appreciate their historical importance and would rate most Beatles albums highly, with such knowledge i would feel qualified to give an objective review, this also goes for Art rock/Psyche-Space rock/Metal. i am not a fan of Canterbury prog, never have been and dislike the music so i do not feel qualified to give those albums a fair review - so i won't! -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: crimson thing
Date Posted: June 05 2006 at 02:55
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With great respect, mystic fred, I'm not sure what knowledge is required to be "qualified" to give a review? I know a fair amount (but certainly don't claim to be an expert) about one particular band, and have picked up bits and pieces about others over the years. However, I would not feel "unqualified" to write a review of an album by a band whose history was unlnown to me. If I've listened to the album more than once, that's enough surely? (The only reason I haven't reviewed yet, is that I fear the power would be addictive & I wouldn't know where to stop......... ------------- "Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS 
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)Posted By: Toccata
Date Posted: October 18 2006 at 08:16
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What happens when kids start joining for a vote in PA? We can see it clearly in a recent example which involves Dream Theatre “Scenes…” and Tool “Lateralus”. Just look at numbers: October 01: DT – rank 20, rtg 4,23, votes 432 and Tool – rank 26, rtg 4,36, votes 207. October 18: DT – rank 27, rtg 4,20, votes 444 and Tool – rank 20, rtg 4,37, votes 218. In a meantime: DT had 1 reviewer (with 5 rtg) and 11 “voters”, Tool had 1 special collaborator’s review (with 4 rtg) and 10 “voters”. (10 an 11 votes for these bands in a two and a half weeks period are twice as much as in two whole previous months). To have such a dramatic change there should be a series of extremely negative votes for DT (with average of 2,9) and lots of 5 stars in a row for Tool (with average of 4,6). Which normally is very unlikely to happen. And this is what I would call a really big abuse. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 18 2006 at 15:02
I am deeply indebted to you Toccata!
I don't know how you spotted it, but further investigation revealed a systematic and significant attempt to manipulate the ratings.
I won't say anything about the "evidence" but it revealed a clear and unambiguous action over a period of time.
It has now been dealt with.
mailto:M@x - M@x has promised that mandatory forum log in to rate and review albums is coming soon.
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 18 2006 at 15:23
Wow.
What a bunch of little tools!
 Ratings are a crock, anyway.
 Ignore them -- read a good review, or sample the album.  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: October 18 2006 at 15:33
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I vote Toccata for Reviews Moderator! Actually, I've been wondering how it is possible that TAAB has dropped 5 places in about a month's time.....  ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 18 2006 at 16:01
You mean Atkingani and I are sacked?! 
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: October 18 2006 at 16:05
yes!  -------------
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 18 2006 at 16:08
I panicked there Rico, I thought you were responding to my post above!
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: October 18 2006 at 16:10
I considered that one rhetorical.   -------------
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: October 18 2006 at 17:51
Not sure, given your last message to Rico - but if this question was directed at me: no way, just add Toccata to the team! ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 18 2006 at 22:41
Yep -- ratings without reviews should have been scrapped two years ago.------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 04:16
This has also been done for the discography of LANDBERK.
YES! They are not a content which would benefit the site!
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Posted By: Toccata
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 06:16
Good to hear
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 09:35
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I have checked out the Beatles and Landberk.
There is no evidence of manipulation for either, the ratings appear to be genuine. They are not necessarily by the same person in each case. I won't take action simply because someone disagrees with someone else's opinion.
The case highlighted previously, which extended well beyond just the two bands mentioned, was a clear case of systematic abuse.
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Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 12:35
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That is more and more why I have shifted myself from writing more polished reviews and worrying less about what I rate it. Albeit I am not on the level of some people. But the real works of art we have here will never do well as the fanboys will overwhelm the rating system. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 23:37
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I do believe that you shouldn't be able to rate without a review. This is mainly because, if you are able to rate it, you should be able to review it. The reviews are what are supposed to be used to get an idea about an album. Without that, it's really of no use.
I was objective when I reviewed the Beatles catalogue. I didn't rate any of the early ones over three stars (and it almost killed me ). I took it from a prog collection viewpoint. If it was just straight reviewing, nothing would get under four stars from me (excluding compilations, and live releases).
I don't like Dream Theater, but I doubt I would give anything I have heard less than two ( and I would have to think it was really bad to rate it that low). Just the same, I would be writing a review to tell the reader what I thought about it. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 21 2006 at 00:39
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Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: October 21 2006 at 02:08
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All of my ratings have reviews, and albeit some of the reviews arent good in my opinion, but they are there nonetheless. I plan to continue it that way, as I somewhat enjoy writing reviews(otherwise I wouldn't do it) and hope that I can somehow help someone out. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: Joolz
Date Posted: October 21 2006 at 07:09
This is the crux of the problem with ratings. The PA rating is only a very rough guide, yet it is wrongly turned into something completely different when applied to the Charts. IMO ratings for charts need to be much more detailed, eg 1-100 comprised of 5 blocks of 20 points for facets of the album like complexity, musicianship, Prog-ness, recording quality, enjoyment factor - I've just made these up on the spur of the moment but using them as an example: BJH - Welcome To The Show complexity - 3/20 musicianship - 15/20 Prog-ness - 6/20 recording quality - 19/20 enjoyment factor - 16/20 Total rating - 59 Just a thought |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 21 2006 at 07:12
Remember I expressed apprehension about Death reviews? Did that get anywhere? Each of their releases, even the obscure ones you can't even find for download anymore, has at least 2 1-star ratings. Looks like some potentional manipulation here. ------------- sig |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 21 2006 at 11:03
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I had a look Ivan, there's nothing to indicate something suspicious going on. Each of the people (and there were a number of them) who gave 1 star has a decent spread of ratings for different albums. There is nothing to indicate any link between the people.
I should say that I simply don't have time to investigate every instance where someone thinks a band or album has been unfairly treated. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 21 2006 at 12:31
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Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: October 21 2006 at 12:51
You're right, Iván... 
Due to the amount of reviews and lack of time, Bob and I go generally to the top of the Chart where the attempts of manipulation occur all the time. I can assure you (and others that come here) that the manipulation trend at the the top of the Chart (involving those acronyms you mentioned  ) is an everyday issue. I really wonder if the quantity of energy those manipulators waste should be better used!------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 21 2006 at 13:11
Amazing to know it's an everyday issue, don't this people have something better to do???? How many ratings they need to alter one place being that ratings alone have a smaller weight among 400 or 500 reviews?
I'm a Genesis fan over Yes by large but honestly feel more comfortable with CTTE or DSOTM than with SEBTP as a top album, but at the end who cares, I will love Foxtrot, Nursery Cryme, Hybris or Gothic Impressions over most of the usual suspects just the same.
Hybris for example could be a top 5 easily, my opinion about it and even less the real quality won't change if ANGLAGARD are not in the top ten.
I'm used to read charts since the 70's and rarely have seen a Prog album mentioned (Most of the times found Bee Gees, Michael Jackson, Madonna, etc) so why should it be different now if one masterpiece and not another is in the top?
Some people need to grow.
Iván
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Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: October 21 2006 at 13:22
The algorhythm difference among the Top 10 is very close and a half dozen of wannabe manipulators may do the damage, unless we notice it.
I believe that these "attacks" come from website fanboyish clubs, be them from Genesis, Yes, Floyd, Tull, etc. They (the attackers) may simply combine and do their raids in a certain day or a couple of days. Some of them, knowing PA rules, write some lines hoping their reviews may count as "valids" and have a greater weight. Sad enough!  ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 21 2006 at 13:33
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 09:40
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Ratings without reviews are a perennial issue. However, mailto:M@x - M@x is adamant that they must continue to be allowed, so that the site is accessible to all. He did however agree to the compromise arrangement where the value of such ratings is less than those of ratings with reviews. This lead to a slight increase in reviews which said nothing ("this albums brilliant, is that 50 words yet?"), but Guigo and I are watching for those too.
Perhaps we be able to get mailto:M@x - M@x to devalue further the influence of ratings without reviews in the future.
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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 10:10
You do know how I feel about that don't you ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Toccata
Date Posted: December 06 2006 at 03:46
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How come?! PoS Perfect Element managed to jump from 44 to 28 in one month period: 05.10.2006 it has 120 votes with 4,43 rtg and now there's 124 with 4,50.
If it'a a simple calculation, those four voters had to vote giving 6,6 average rtg
 Is it OK?
The same for BMS Darwin!: 05.10.2006 it has 81 votes with 4,35 rtg and now there's 82 with 4,42. One voter had to give 10,1 rtg
 . And jumped 17 places up.Also strange things with PoS Remedy Lane, Deep Purple Made in Japan. And especially with DT Live at Budokan: the same number of voters (76), but rating has changed from 4,39 to 4,35 which eventually thrown them down by 17 places.
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Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: December 06 2006 at 04:09
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So you're saying that I could review EVERYTHING ELSE with one star in an attempt to get Under Wraps to the number one slot, eh? Hmm... ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: December 06 2006 at 06:03
There are different weights for "ratings with reviews" and "ratings without reviews". Also, PA Collabs reviews have a greater weight. The issue cannot be solved by simple arythmetics!
Anyway, the algorythm used may have a flaw or a bug. ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: zaxx
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 10:54
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Ok here it goes (correct me if I'm wrong concerning the weights)...
AGALLOCH "Pale Folklore" reviews (I took a simple example) Collaborators Reviews (weight = 3) 5* (1) 3* (1) Guests Reviews (weight = 2) 5* (1) Ratings Without Reviews (weight = 1) 5* (3) 4* (1) 2* (1) Total = (5+3)*3 + 5*2 + (3*5+4+2)*1 = 55 Weighted votes = 2*3 + 1*2 + 5*1 = 13 Average rating = 55/13 = 4.23 Rating from PA = 4.33 Note that I calculated the same way the average for "The Mantle" and in that case it's the same as the one given by PA (4.39)... so where's the flaw? ------------- Destiny... Infinity... Eternity... |
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 13:09
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Noted, zaxx... anyway, all this stuff will be checked/revised in early 2007. ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: January 16 2007 at 17:21
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Perhaps we should give ratings with more words more credit...
So that my Tago Mago review (11 pages, double spaced) will push it back up to first place in Krautrock, where it belongs...
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Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: January 16 2007 at 18:15
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^^ so now quantity comes before quality  j/k mate, it's an excellent analysis ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |