Prog music generally is complex, and often consists of longer compositions that require longer attention spans. The lyrics tend to be sophisticated.

Interviews with my favorites musicians, from Tony Banks to Bill Bruford, from Peter Garbiel to Greg Lake and Chris Squire, reveal them to be bright, eloquent people.

Without being embarrassed by about tooting your own horn, do prog fans generally have above-average intelligence? Is prog perhaps modern music for the intelligentsia?

UPDATE/CLARIFICATION REGARDING THIS THREAD:

1) The question posed by this thread: Do today's prog fans often have above-average intelligence? This thread is not about whether people are 'smart' because they listen to prog.

2) This thread is not elitist. This thread does not say prog is 'smarter' than, for example, rap or nu-metal. And it's ok to say you're bright.

3) It's widely understood that IQ tests have their limitations. However, at present, they remain the most widely accepted tool for the unwieldy task of quantifying intelligence.

^ Good one, Cobb!

But, yes overall, Prog fans do definitely have intelligence, even though we tend not to use it at certain times

stonebeard wrote: anyone have a link where i can find out my IQ????

Why, here's your IQ my good man:

^

Great two posts, Cyggie and Cobb!

Indirectly.  As music goes, prog isn't exactly the elite in terms of complexity or technique. If prog fans are geniuses, what are jazz and classical fans... super geniuses?  I think that people who are genuinely interested in music as music, and who come from backgrounds that aren't prejudiced against rock music, will probably like at least some prog.  People who have genuine interests in music as such tend to be (in my experience) of greater than average intelligence.

But saying that liking prog means you're smart... I've read enough brain-dead gushing on the internet from Rush and Marillion fanboys to disprove that one many times over.   

Yep I would say that prog music is probably more appreciated by those of an above average IQ

Though looking at some of the postings on this forum, one has to wonder....

Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: anyone have a link where i can find out my IQ???? Why, here's your IQ my good man:

You didn't think I expected a neo-prog related post from the likes of you?  Tsk, Tsk...

stonebeard wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: anyone have a link where i can find out my IQ???? Why, here's your IQ my good man: You didn't think I expected a neo-prog related post from the likes of you?  Tsk, Tsk...

Oh I knew that you would know that I would know to put a neo-prog related post in response to your post about you wanting to know what your IQ was.

I don't know about my IQ, but I tend to be more the intellectial type of person. I study linguistics and literature (spanish and latin) right at this moment, I listen to prog and jazz (and i hate punk) and i like to analyse people and circulmtances. I think things through and through, which sometimes gives me a really bad feeling. this feeling is one of the big disadvantages of 'thinking'.

I don't know if my studies have anything in common with listening to progmusic, but where I life, people that completely differ from me (intellectually) listen to teenage punk rock and dance music for the masses, I guess this a sign on the wall! but I can't tell anything definitive about this matter, It's just how I feel about it.

cheers

thefalafelking

yargh wrote: Indirectly.  As music goes, prog isn't exactly the elite in terms of complexity or technique. If prog fans are geniuses, what are jazz and classical fans... super geniuses?  I think that people who are genuinely interested in music as music, and who come from backgrounds that aren't prejudiced against rock music, will probably like at least some prog.  People who have genuine interests in music as such tend to be (in my experience) of greater than average intelligence.

Well, my thread started by specifying modern music, i.e. a recently created art form, as opposed to classical or jazz which are more traditional genres.

Not everyone who is bright and open to rock will like prog. I have plenty of bright friends who don't understand at all why I like it.

And as for Rush, while I'm not a fan, I am thankful that Neil Peart writes lyrics that are much more intelligent than, say, Rush contemporaries like Journey or Loverboy.

yargh wrote: Indirectly.  As music goes, prog isn't exactly the elite in terms of complexity or technique. If prog fans are geniuses, what are jazz and classical fans... super geniuses?  I think that people who are genuinely interested in music as music, and who come from backgrounds that aren't prejudiced against rock music, will probably like at least some prog.  People who have genuine interests in music as such tend to be (in my experience) of greater than average intelligence. But saying that liking prog means you're smart... I've read enough brain-dead gushing on the internet from Rush and Marillion fanboys to disprove that one many times over.

this is absolutely true!!!

Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: anyone have a link where i can find out my IQ???? Why, here's your IQ my good man:

Cute, but predictable and off-topic.

If the thread said "Where Should I Start With Genesis?" I suppose you'd say the Bible!

Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: anyone have a link where i can find out my IQ???? Why, here's your IQ my good man: You didn't think I expected a neo-prog related post from the likes of you?  Tsk, Tsk... Oh I knew that you would know that I would know to put a neo-prog related post in response to your post about you wanting to know what your IQ was.

Well...I can only answer that with a....

(insert embarassing neil morse "church" phote here)

....erm....I didn't really feel like trudging through 1000 pages of Mariah Carey to find it.

stonebeard wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: anyone have a link where i can find out my IQ???? Why, here's your IQ my good man: You didn't think I expected a neo-prog related post from the likes of you?  Tsk, Tsk... Oh I knew that you would know that I would know to put a neo-prog related post in response to your post about you wanting to know what your IQ was. Well...I can only answer that with a.... (insert embarassing neil morse "church" phote here) ....erm....I didn't really feel like trudging through 1000 pages of Mariah Carey to find it.

I hope you don't mean

P.S. Sorry to those who are confused, but this is a common occurence among us.

That's the one, Cyggie!

And don't worry. This time, I saved it into a word document so I can bring it up whenever I like!

thefalafelking wrote: I don't know about my IQ, but I tend to be more the intellectial type of person. I study linguistics and literature (spanish and latin) right at this moment, I listen to prog and jazz (and i hate punk) and i like to analyse people and circulmtances. I think things through and through, which sometimes gives me a really bad feeling. this feeling is one of the big disadvantages of 'thinking'. I don't know if my studies have anything in common with listening to progmusic, but where I life, people that completely differ from me (intellectually) listen to teenage punk rock and dance music for the masses, I guess this a sign on the wall! but I can't tell anything definitive about this matter, It's just how I feel about it.

Are you really in Belgium? Besides being bright, you must also drink a TON of coffee because I think it's 3:45 a.m. there.

Well, I'm with you. I like complex music (prog, classical, etc.), I'm a cross-cultural filmmaker by profession and an ex-journalist, my favorite author is Jack Vance in part because of his intense vocabularly. New York City is the place where I've felt most at home, in terms of being around intellectual peers. Most if not all of my suburban neighbors drive me nuts. I was always classified gifted and excelled in school, and now my kids do too. 

My wife thinks this is the reason I like prog instead of Bruce Springsteen or Hootie and the Blowfish or Sting or whatever.

Well, I have a cousin who has borderline IQ, not so low to be considered special, but you can't keep a 2 minutes conversation with him (of course he isn't able to write on a forum), but the kid without my advice (because being honest I never paid too much attention to him in a conversation) showed me his DVD and Cd coollection last month.

He hasn't a defined taste but he has all Yes, Rush, Kansas, Rick Wakeman collection, among his favorites. He asked me for advice, because his brother is a metalhead that likes Prog' and told him I knew about Yes, and I burned a CD with songs by Genesis, Marillion, Magenta, etc.

The next day his mother asked me how to pay by internet with her credit card for Revolutions, so I took him to my secret music stores, where all the owners knew him already.

He doesn't understand what Progressive Rock is, but he likes it.

So not only people with high IQ like Prog, but I still believe most progheads need a normal - high IQ, because Progressive Rock implies not only taste but also understanding and research, something that people with low IQ aren't normally able to do.

Iván

kirklott wrote: yargh wrote: Indirectly.  As music goes, prog isn't exactly the elite in terms of complexity or technique. If prog fans are geniuses, what are jazz and classical fans... super geniuses?  I think that people who are genuinely interested in music as music, and who come from backgrounds that aren't prejudiced against rock music, will probably like at least some prog.  People who have genuine interests in music as such tend to be (in my experience) of greater than average intelligence. Well, my thread started by specifying modern music, i.e. a recently created art form, as opposed to classical or jazz which are more traditional genres. Not everyone who is bright and open to rock will like prog. I have plenty of bright friends who don't understand at all why I like it. And as for Rush, while I'm not a fan, I am thankful that Neil Peart writes lyrics that are much more intelligent than, say, Rush contemporaries like Journey or Loverboy.

I only know one person who is really smart (well, he has a ridiculously high IQ and we'll proceed on the assumption that having a high IQ means you're smart), and who is *really* into music, but who doesn't like any prog at all.  He's Julliard-educated, loves avant-garde classical music (Xenakis, Ligeti, Boulez, etc.) likes some jazz... but the only popular music he's into is Motown, soul and '80s synth-style pop.  He finds almost all "rock" music to be "dumb."  He even ripped apart stuff like Henry Cow and Thinking Plague which I gave him to try, saying that everything they were doing was smoke and mirrors and had no compositional integrity.  He's a tough nut to crack, and I doubt I'll ever get him to like any prog.   

As for Neil Peart, I think he's too hit and miss.  Is his stuff better than that of Journey or Loverboy? Well, yes, but what exactly does that mean?  Unlike Journey or Loverboy, Peart writes lyrics that beg to be noticed (one reason why I love Led Zeppelin despite their forgettable lyrics is that the lyrics are wholly unimportant to the Zeppelin experience).  I think Peart's lyrics are often hurt by their obviousness and obnoxiousness, but I can't deny that he also has some really good songs.  Like Ian Anderson, he has ambitions for his lyrics that are beyond his ability to consistently meet, although when it works it works very well. 

yes, Im really from Belgium, but I had a party of which I just returned a few moments ago. Therefore, I didn't drink tons of coffee, but tons of beer and wine. Have to go now, the screen is moving sideways! hhahaha

cheers

thefalafelking

ivan_2068 wrote: Well, I have a cousin who has borderline IQ, not so low to be considered special, but you can't keep a 2 minutes conversation with him (of course he isn't able to write on a forum), but the kid without my advice (because being honest I never paid too much attention to him in a conversation) showed me his DVD and Cd coollection last month. He hasn't a defined taste but he has all Yes, Rush, Kansas, Rick Wakeman collection, among his favorites. He asked me for advice, because his brother is a metalhead that likes Prog' and told him I knew about Yes, and I burned a CD with songs by Genesis, Marillion, Magenta, etc. The next day his mother asked me how to pay by internet with her credit card for Revolutions, so I took him to my secret music stores, where all the owners knew him already. He doesn't understand what Progressive Rock is, but he likes it. So not only people with high IQ like Prog, but I still believe most progheads need a normal - high IQ, because Progressive Rock implies not only taste but also understanding and research, something that people with low IQ aren't normally able to do. Iván

Well said Ivan -  - but it is great that your cousin likes the music - a reaction that is similar to many, for example,  autistic people.  

people who have a high iq:

they listen to iq

Maybe all prog fans have high IQs, but definitely not all people with high IQs like prog.

But I don't think liking prog has anything to do with being smart.  It's all about having an open mind.

about 95% of the internet iq tests out there is totally wrong as proper ones is based on time and have a much bigger array of different assignments than that...i have only taken one proper iq test and got 138 on that one...but i also get the feeling that this forum has members that has an iq which is mostly above the average (100) as i have never been into a internet forum with so many intelligent and orderly discussions

CaptainWafflos wrote: Internet IQ tests are rarely accurate. I've been given anywhere from 120 to 180 depending on the test. I've never taken a certified IQ test. I don't really trust them regardless; I think there are more dimensions to intelligence than an average IQ test could evaluate.

The only thing that IQ tests measure accurately is your ability to take IQ tests.

Syzygy wrote: CaptainWafflos wrote: Internet IQ tests are rarely accurate. I've been given anywhere from 120 to 180 depending on the test. I've never taken a certified IQ test. I don't really trust them regardless; I think there are more dimensions to intelligence than an average IQ test could evaluate. The only thing that IQ tests measure accurately is your ability to take IQ tests.

Hardly...proper iq-tests are much more diverse and complex than those internet tests...you can not "teach" your self to become good in them

Well what is it that an PROPER iq test is meant to analyze?

It is not creative mathers as art or compositional skills, it is basically meant to be an overview of the abilty to solve a great array different of problems whitin a certain time.

And a proper IQ-test does just that and has different assignments whitin the categorys of:

Language

Memory

Logics

Calculation

Technical understanding

Logics

And understanding of figures and room.

All these assignments must be solved under a certain degree of time...say 20 seconds as most people will be able to solve them although perhaps not as quicly as an intelligent person.

CaptainWafflos wrote: maidenrulez wrote: Well if you would define intelligence as being able to solve different problems quicly then a proper iq-test surely gives you a good idea on how intelligent you are. I define intelligence more as "the ability to produce output of variable quality", output left intentionally vague. Output could mean the answer to a simple math problem, a compelling novel, a pop song, or a painting. I have met people who aren't endowed with the logical intelligence required to excel on IQ tests, but instead excel in other areas. For example, I have met people who don't score well on standardized tests but instead produce paintings better than anything I could hope to accomplish. I still consider these people to be highly intelligent.

Well then we can not change the defintion for intelligence as this was original defintion for a reasonably inelligent person is a person with knowledge and understanding for these different subjects:

Language

Memory

Logics

Calculation

Technical understanding

Logics

And understanding of figures and room

And remember that mentally retarded people still can be masters of painting, playing music and even math although they are not really intelligent by the true definiton of the word.

CaptainWafflos wrote: There are many different definitions of intelligence. That is mine. If mentally retarded people are capable of being math geniuses, then how are they mentally retarded given that math requires logical and calculational skills?

Well i dont know exactly how this works...forexample the movie rainman shows one of these special cases where he throws a box of matches on the floor an he counts them all in one second...

Their brains is basically wired different and well very weak at all other things they become geniouses in specific things like that...However given a full IQ-test they still would not receive an high intelligence overall as there is much more to it than just the logical and the mathematical stuff...

But generally these special cases are better in maths than any other human with "normal" brain wiring

I disagree. Perhaps the musicians are intelligent, but claming that Prog Fans are also intelligent, is quite bullsh*t.

I tink I em ferry zmart and have a hai Intell... intallige....kwoti....kwit...IQ.

Suki wrote: I disagree. Perhaps the musicians are intelligent, but claming that Prog Fans are also intelligent, is quite bullsh*t.

Well as i said before this forum seems to be generally having discussions in quite a intelligent manner that i have yet to discover in other music forums or any other forums for that matter.

Although some of the discussions seem to lack some valid arguments (Right suki)  People behave reasonably adult, intelligent and they care to elaborate their meanings instead of fobbing it off with stupid comments...

I belivie prog music requires some certain degree of intelligence above the average to concentrate,understand and appreciate the music...

Marc Baum wrote: One may be sure: The average prog-head is more intelligent than the average hip hopper

Exaclty i think some of the activites we enjoy can be reflected back to our own intelligence. As higly intelligent people enjoy different activites than non-intelligent ones it is reasonable to belivie that this aslo applies for music...(Although im sure you can find a higly intelligent person that listens to Eminem i would say that they are pretty rare...)

chopper wrote: When was the last time you saw a group of kids hanging around a shopping centre with Gentle Giant blasting out of a stereo?

 It has never occured.

A couple people in this thread have criticized the validity of IQ tests. Sure, they're far from perfect, but that's not the point of this thread. However, even the informal online tests can be somewhat accurate - I took one once, at it exactly matched the two formal ones I've taken.

The point is whether prog fans - in general - have higher-than-average intelligence. (And I'm not including fairweather friends who listen only to Fragile and Dark Side of the Moon).

This was intended to be a serious discussion. For me, the answer is clear. Compare, for example, the writing ability (spelling, grammar, vocabulary, sentence structure, wit, etc.) of this newsgroup to, say, alt.music-vanhalen, and I think there's a clear difference. It's well-known, for example, that readers of fantasy books generally are bright. I believe there are similar parallels to prog (and prog lyrics often are fantasy-based)

Finally, a lot of people in this thread underplay or doubt their intelligence. That's not surprising, because it's a well known pyschological principle that people generally think they're "average" in traits, skills, etc. For example, an American male who's 6' tall might think he's average and thus be surprised to learn that the average is 5' 9".

So for the guy who said his IQ is 115 or so, you're well above average and in the top 15% in the nation, and the two who said they're in the low 140s, you're in the top 1/3 of the top 1%.

So give yourself credit prog fans, you're probably bright. Who else can appreciate Soundchaser, or have the attention span for Supper's Ready or Karn Eviil 9?

Suki wrote: I disagree. Perhaps the musicians are intelligent, but claming that Prog Fans are also intelligent, is quite bullsh*t.

How so?

I think it may be true nowadays, and I have a lot of respect for many of the younger members of this forum for routing out prog music today when its much harder to find. I think it draws a certain type of person today and you only have to look at the postings of TP and the like to realise you are dealing with smart cookies.

When I first got into prog in the 70's it had wide appeal and attracted a broad spectrum of people. I was chatting to one of the admin staff in my office the other day, who does not seem to have much intelligence (bless her) but in 70's she was a major ELP fan and went to see them on numerous occasions. One of the most gormless people I have ever met used to like YES and had a large prog record collection.

I guess though a lot of the 'less accademic' people who caught the prog bandwaggon in 70's fell off it when punk/Disco/etc came along.

NutterAlert wrote: I think it may be true nowadays, and I have a lot of respect for many of the younger members of this forum for routing out prog music today when its much harder to find. I think it draws a certain type of person today and you only have to look at the postings of TP and the like to realise you are dealing with smart cookies. When I first got into prog in the 70's it had wide appeal and attracted a broad spectrum of people. I was chatting to one of the admin staff in my office the other day, who does not seem to have much intelligence (bless her) but in 70's she was a major ELP fan and went to see them on numerous occasions. One of the most gormless people I have ever met used to like YES and had a large prog record collection. I guess though a lot of the 'less accademic' people who caught the prog bandwaggon in 70's fell off it when punk/Disco/etc came along.

This is a good point. I'm sure there were plenty of people soaked in Everclear requesting"Stairway to Heaven" during Yes concerts in the 70s.

A lot of people who bought prog in the early 70s did so because it was top of the charts. But for a young person to discover Close to the Edge in 2005, and "get it," I think requires a certain level of intelligence.

Young prog fans are - I imagine - curious, open-minded people looking for kindred spirits. Although it's getting more hip now to be a prog fan, in light of Mars Volta, etc., I think anyone listening to early Crimson or ELP 5 years ago would surely have been quarantined.

Syzygy wrote: There's an excellent book by Stephen J Gould called The Mismeasure of Man which analyses the accuracy, uses and abuses of intelligence testing. There's no doubt that some IQ tests are more searching than others, but the objective validity of the results and the ways in which they can be used remain highly contentious.

If you're reading Gould, in particular if you're reading it for leisure, it only proves the point of this thread. Prog fans are on average bright people.

Which goes against the politically-correct nonsense that it's ok for a person to say they're physically disabled or weight challenged, but it's not ok for someone to say they're mentally gifted.

So the consensus is that prog music lovers are more intelligent than people liking other kind of music.

Strechting this opinion this means that within this group there must be some distinction as well.

Would prog metall heads be less intelligent than neo proggers? Can someone who likes the Tales from the Topographic Oceans be considered more intelligent than some one who prefers Union?

Let us rate some albums: If you find Godbluff is the best from VDGG you get 5 points, but if you like Pawn Hearts more you get 6 points.  Would be a great test. Not sure if I personally woudl like the results.

Under wrote: Can someone who likes the Tales from the Topographic Oceans be considered more intelligent than some one who prefers Union?

Well, I think this is self-evident.

i think i've got the point:

there are among prog fans intelligent fans & stupid fans; those who are intelligent like intelligent prog and never stupid prog; those who are stupid like some stupid prog.

now the question is to give names for stupid prog, and i think i'll keep them inside my thoughts, in order to avoid controversy

greenback wrote: i think i've got the point: there are among prog fans intelligent fans & stupid fans; those who are intelligent like intelligent prog and never stupid prog; those who are stupid like some stupid prog. now the question is to give names for stupid prog, and i think i'll keep them inside my thoughts, in order to avoid controversy

Intelligent prog and stupid prog.

That was a good way to organize the genres. Now it has taken hundreds of posts and did not get any result.
I will not keep these inside my head. We should make a list.

Early Yes must be considered intelligent prog (8 points on a scale to 10).
Early Genesis is quit intelligent as well (7 points)
Dream Theaters SFAM (9 points), but TOT (5 points)
Marillion Marbles (3 points)
Etc.

Now, one would have to add up all points of the albums he/ she likes. Over 1000 points is extremely intelligent, less than 100 points is intelligent for normal people, but just dumb for proggers.

Hmm, I should protect this with a patent .....

cobb wrote: No, haven't you been reading some of the posts on this site....

Good point. Maybe its more pretension than intellect.

I'm not a very intelligent music fan. I know very little abotu the technical side of music. I don't know anything about scales or chords or time signatures, and I have very little exerpience with any instruments.(I took a year of piano lessons and remember almost nothing)

However, that doesn't mean I can't appreciate more complex music. One of my first favorite bands was Phish, so I learned early to appreciate longer compositions, which is why I like prog and post-rock.

Well I think Im one of those characters that is pretty smart but I tend to space out alot and I am lazy when it comes to school so people who dont know me very well think I am a total idiot, who knows maybe I am really stupid

Have not read this eltist thread, but ever since there is a group that usurped this name with derivative music , I always knew that progheads were definitely not more worthy humans just because of their music tastes!

No offence meant , but took a good look at yourselves before having to judge others who are into different music styles. This would mean that the Jazz Purists and Classical nutheads would have even higher IQ than progheads!

i iz stoopid

For one, I don't think anyone has mentioned even once on this thread the issue of social intelligence. You can have logical, linguistic, mathematical, and several other kinds of intelligence in spades and lack everything about social intelligence. Perfect example being the stereotypical science geek or engineer.

My point is there is no point! The only thing this kind of argument seems to do is bring out the elitist in us.

Y'know, there is an incredibly intelligent guy I go to school with who is amazing at Physics. He listens to a blend of classical music and mainstream rap/hip-hop. I'm talking 50 Cent here.
There is another incredibly intelligent guy I go to school with who is amazing at math and programming. He listens to pop. Like Mariah Carey (she of the famous thread), Britney, Celine Dion, Black Eyed Peas, etc.
Then there's me, who can't do physics worth crap (the only reason I'm still in the program is because you get by with a little help from your friends), who has to memorise how to do calculus problems, who dies a little on the inside every time she has a programming assignment, and who listens to classic 70's prog. Go figure.

little_neutrino wrote: For one, I don't think anyone has mentioned even once on this thread the issue of social intelligence. You can have logical, linguistic, mathematical, and several other kinds of intelligence in spades and lack everything about social intelligence. Perfect example being the stereotypical science geek or engineer. My point is there is no point! The only thing this kind of argument seems to do is bring out the elitist in us. Y'know, there is an incredibly intelligent guy I go to school with who is amazing at Physics. He listens to a blend of classical music and mainstream rap/hip-hop. I'm talking 50 Cent here. There is another incredibly intelligent guy I go to school with who is amazing at math and programming. He listens to pop. Like Mariah Carey (she of the famous thread), Britney, Celine Dion, Black Eyed Peas, etc. Then there's me, who can't do physics worth crap (the only reason I'm still in the program is because you get by with a little help from your friends), who has to memorise how to do calculus problems, who dies a little on the inside every time she has a programming assignment, and who listens to classic 70's prog. Go figure.

Social intelligence is for the dweebs that does not got the proper intellligence

BUT! you dont have to be really intelligent to get on with maths and physics really since these subjects is built on a set of rules and as long as you know them it is quite simple.

So you cant really say they are higly intelligent until they have been tested properly. (Remember math is just one of 7 subjects in an intelligent test )

Remember ever Albert Einstein was really crap at school, but the point is...the prog fans have USUALLY an higer average IQ that the rest of the population  

I know this becuase of the many intelligent discussions and the general knowledge in language that random members can show.

CaptainWafflos wrote: kirklott wrote: However, even the informal online tests can be somewhat accurate - I took one once, at it exactly matched the two formal ones I've taken. Out of curiosity, which online test did you take?

I think it's the one below. It took about 30 minutes, and it was fun and the questions actually got pretty challenging toward the end.

http://www.iqtest.com/ - http://www.iqtest.com/

The fact that my results were dead accurate could be coincidence.

little_neutrino wrote: My point is there is no point! The only thing this kind of argument seems to do is bring out the elitist in us.

This is non-sense. You're simply falling prey to the worst kind of politically-correct dogma.

Whereas you would say it's OK for me to say "I'm 20 pounds overweight," you would say it's not OK for me to say "I'm mentally gifted."

Why is it OK for people to classify themselves "mentally disabled," but not "mentally gifted." That's why schools dump $ BILLIONS into helping the disabled, but very littled into challenging the gifted (who, btw, are the future leaders, engineers, etc., whom we will call upon to solve the world's imminent problems. Unfortunately gifted children have a high drop out rate because they aren't challenged.) This is the nightmare scenario that characters always face in Ayn Rand's books.

Slow down for a moment, avoid the PC knee-jerk reaction, and put some thought into what this thread is about. This thread is not about whether you're "smart" because you listen to prog. The thread is about whether the type of people who are drawn to prog music today are often mentally gifted (which, btw, can be up to 25% of a school class). For reasons outlined in this thread, I believe a-higher-than-average number of prog fans are bright. And if you're mentally gifted, you should be proud instead of being embarrassed.

Sean Trane wrote: Have not read this eltist thread,

Just curious, but how can you call this thread elitist is you haven't read it? That's sort of politically-correct, knee-jerk dogma, isn't it?

It's interesting, but I've started some possibly inflamatory off-topic threads in this newsgroup (such as Did Bush dupe Christians?) which have lead to intelligent, respectful, and thoughtful discourse.

On the other hand, this thread is more difficult. We've all been taught since day one it's ok for someone to say he or she is mentally challenged or tall or overweight or have green hair or whatever.

But it's very, very naughty to say you're smart. Which is really quite stupid.

I just took that IQ test, and my score was 92.

I'm barely not retarded, but even I can appreciate progressive music.

I dont think so.

There are alot of stupid people out there, chances are some of them like prog.

Man With Hat wrote: I dont think so. There are alot of stupid people out there, chances are some of them like prog.

I'm one of them! Woohoo!

Harry Hood wrote: I just took that IQ test, and my score was 92. I'm barely not retarded, but even I can appreciate progressive music.

I don't believe you.

And even if you did, you rushed because I only gave you that link a few moments ago.

And even if you did, the online tests are considered by many wildly inaccurate.

And even if you did, IQ tests in general are considered highly flawed.

And even if your IQ is 92, that's nowhere near retarded, and in fact is pretty close to average.

And even if your IQ is 92, IQ tests focus on almost entirely on logic etc., as opposed to other forms of intelligence ranging from social intelligence to the arts.

Damen wrote: I have a 167 IQ and i'm a member of Mensa, so maybe.

If your IQ is 167, you should be in the Prometheus Society instead of Mensa. I wouldn't qualify, but my son would.

Man With Hat wrote: I dont think so. There are alot of stupid people out there, chances are some of them like prog.

Well, more people voted for Bush than listen to prog. I think that says something. I'm not sure what, but I'm pretty sure it says something.

Damen wrote: I have a 167 IQ and i'm a member of Mensa, so maybe.

If your IQ is above 160, I believe you can upgrade to The Prometheus Society. I wouldn't qualify, but my son would.

kirklott wrote: Harry Hood wrote: I just took that IQ test, and my score was 92. I'm barely not retarded, but even I can appreciate progressive music. I don't believe you. And even if you did, you rushed because I only gave you that link a few moments ago. And even if you did, the online tests are considered by many wildly inaccurate. And even if you did, IQ tests in general are considered highly flawed. And even if your IQ is 92, that's nowhere near retarded, and in fact is pretty close to average. And even if your IQ is 92, IQ tests focus on almost entirely on logic etc., as opposed to other forms of intelligence ranging from social intelligence to the arts.

I did rush through it, but only the mental math problems. I knew I wasn't going to get any of them, because I can't do mental math. So, if I actually took my time with it, my score would be a lot lower.

Harry Hood wrote: I did rush through it, but only the mental math problems. I knew I wasn't going to get any of them, because I can't do mental math. So, if I actually took my time with it, my score would be a lot lower.

Well a lot of historical figures, from Edison to Einstein to Lincoln and many others, were considered poor students, and either kicked out school or came close.

So perhaps you're in good company.

Well online IQ tests fail because of that you get an unlimted amount of time to do it...and also they just get into very few of the subjects that should be touched...

UncleMeat wrote: I know a lot of highly intelligent people who do not like prog music at all but are more in to Punk, Jazz, Classical, soul or even R&B. And some of them really hate prog musicians for finding themselves so very interesting. And I also know a lot of intelligent people liking other music, like for example Kaiser Chiefs, Franz Ferdinand or Bloc Party. And are we saying here that women in general have a lower IQ then men? Prog lovers are more often men than women! (The last prog-concert I saw was 80% male, 20% women). So all in all, I think the idea that Prog lovers have a higher IQ than people liking other music is not true.

Im pretty sure we would get a result above the average if we IQ-tested the whole community here...but as i said im sure you can find a guy with 170 in iq and likes abba and so on and im not saying that all intelligent people listen to prog but the average intelligence for proggers is higher than the average population...And you dont really know if your friends is intellligent do you

Aslo i has been proven that men has a higer average IQ than women

UncleMeat wrote: I know a lot of highly intelligent people who do not like prog music at all but are more in to Punk, Jazz, Classical, soul or even R&B. And some of them really hate prog musicians for finding themselves so very interesting. And I also know a lot of intelligent people liking other music, like for example Kaiser Chiefs, Franz Ferdinand or Bloc Party.

No one in this thread has said anything to the contrary.

UncleMeat wrote: And are we saying here that women in general have a lower IQ then men? Prog lovers are more often men than women! (The last prog-concert I saw was 80% male, 20% women).

The sexist angle. How trendy.

Again, no one said this. And to the contrary, my wife is part of a book group, I'm part of a mountain biking group. So does this indicate women are more intelligent than men?

I must admit that I did not read the post from Kirklott and others properly and reacted accordingly  (maybe a personal IQ problem)

Maidenrulez and Kirklott are probably right about saying that the IQ of progrock lovers is above the average IQ. And I expect that the IQ of people liking Classical music, jazz music, world music or the singer-songwriter genre is also above average. But do you think there is a type of music that is loved by people with a less than average IQ?

Why any genuinely intelligent person would

1. Believe that intelligence can be quantified
2. Brag about their score in some arbitrary test and
3. Join one of the amateur eugenics societies masquerading as a high IQ club

is completely beyond my comprehension.

But then, I've always been a bit of a thicko.

i think so, though not all.

i think jazz fans (esp. Jazz fusion) are intellectual people.