The 1970s: counterculture, music, peace & struggle
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133810
Printed Date: November 23 2024 at 12:12
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Topic: The 1970s: counterculture, music, peace & struggle
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Subject: The 1970s: counterculture, music, peace & struggle
Date Posted: November 03 2024 at 07:31
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This is my new blog about the Seventies in Italy but, for extension, in Europe and in the West. This is the golden age of prog and, in Italy, it coincided with the years of the student movement and of the armed struggle. The prog bands themselves, for the most part (PFM, Banco, Area and later Stormy Six are only the most famous), belonged to what was called, generically, the ‘Movement’. In Milan one of these bomb made a massacre called "La strage di Piazza Fontana". That massacre prepared gli "Anni di Piombo", the Years of Lead (or the years of the armed struggle). But before Piazza Fontana there was the student movement in 1967-68 in all of Europe. Which songs dominated the Italian charts in 1968? One was this one: ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Replies:
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 03 2024 at 08:51
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This blog looks very interesting to me  , and if extension to other European countries, Germany would be very obvious, even not Progressive Rock as I see it but Krautrock.------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: November 03 2024 at 13:19
Yes, every corrispondence with what happened in Germany or Denmark or the rest of Europe is welcome. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
David_D wrote:Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: November 03 2024 at 17:42
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Why was it in Italy, unlike in home country England, that Pawn Hearts was so successful? ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 03 2024 at 18:03
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I think PFM recorded an Italian cover of Rain and Tears called Lacrime e pioggia. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 04 2024 at 08:19
When talking about Denmark in the '70s, I think that the most countercultural/leftist band with at least some progressive leanings was Savage Rose. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: November 04 2024 at 08:47
Italians are more emotional.
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Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: November 04 2024 at 09:55
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I wonder if Italians "claim" Nino Ferrer. He has great some great prog-like songs from the 70s ------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: November 04 2024 at 11:40
Well, there are many reasons. But, remember: not only VdGG but even Gentle Giant and Genesis were very successful in Italy - and quite ignored in England. EL&P and Jethro Tull albums were bestsellers. This excellent article (language: Italian) http://https://www.ondarock.it/speciali/progitalia.htm" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.ondarock.it/speciali/progitalia.htm explains the characteristics of prog in Italy and why it was so successful, i.e. why Italy produced more prog bands than any other continental European country and why it decreed the success of many English prog bands in advance. The reasons are not so much emotional as intellectual and political: "Progressive rock in the English-speaking world had no political orientation: it could have functions of social commentary (Jethro Tull and King Crimson) or philosophical (Moody Blues) or existential (VdGG) or spiritual (Yes), or even more frequently invented fairy-tale scenarios of complete escapism from reality (Genesis, Gentle Giant). Rock In Opposition is practically a non-issue: it took shape when prog was in its decline and remained a marginal and completely underground phenomenon. In Italy, the political neutrality of prog was not perceived, probably also due to the very poor knowledge of English that characterised our nation at the time. Instead, its ability to deconstruct the prevailing song form was perceived. Songs were shattered and lengthened, deprived of their typical structural barycentre composed of the precise alternation of verse and refrain, following unusual tempos and instrumental digressions hitherto unheard of. If one analyses the musical structure of prog records, its anarchic power - insofar as formally contrary to a recipe hitherto dominant in its own market - is evident, and to be perceived does not require an understanding of the lyrics. It is not difficult to guess the conclusion: if the music rails against the established order, it is obvious that it is the work as a whole that does so. Ours was the democratic country with the largest communist party in Europe, not to mention certain clamorous actions of the extra-parliamentary left, and the ideologisation of music marked the intelligentsia and the student movements of the 1970s: the episodes and anecdotes that can be recounted in this regard are innumerable, from the boycott against Lou Reed to De Gregori's protest, from the accusations of fascism levelled at Lucio Battisti (and Museo Rosenbach) to the spread of festivals and independent radio stations. In such a context, prog had fertile ground to flourish, and it flourished in its most truthful and committed dimension." I can add that in Italy, where rock tradition was weak, there was, instead a rich tradition of classic music and prog rock was associated to the cultured musician of classic music. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: November 04 2024 at 12:57
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 04 2024 at 13:47
Sure, and for instance, Oktober which made Die Pariser Commune (1977), an ambitious concept double album about The Paris Commune of 1871 seen from left-wing perspective. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: November 04 2024 at 14:53
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Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: November 04 2024 at 15:27
Franco Battiato ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 04 2024 at 15:31
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Sorry, I meant Quelli. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: November 04 2024 at 16:33
Oh yeah, I Quelli ---> Pfm - Lacrime e pioggia But even I Trolls ----> New Trolls - Lacrime e pioggia ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: November 04 2024 at 16:43
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In 1968 the success of RAIN AND TEARS was so great that many Italian artists make a cover: Prog artists: - I QUELLI (then Pfm) - I Trolls (then New Trolls) - Franco Battiato plus melodic singers: - Armando Savini, Barbarella, Dalida, Robot (Bobby Solo, Little Tont, Rosanna Fratello) and recently Ivana Spagna) From this emblematic example, we can conclude that much Italian prog music descends directly from beat groups (Pfm, New Trolls, Area, Le Orme), and that beat groups and melodic singers in the late 1960s followed English fashions, reinterpreting some English hits in Italian. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 04 2024 at 16:56
Okay, I think that https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133212" rel="nofollow - Political Prog and other socially-concerned threads/polls, I've started, have clearly documented that it was not quite so. Even it's of course also a question of the definition of "political", and the English-speaking Prog was definitely not so political as the Italian.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 04 2024 at 17:09
------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: November 04 2024 at 17:44
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@David @Hyrchu Let me try to make the concept clearer. English prog was born as a neutral movement in relation to politics, it was not born out of youth protests, out of the hangouts of political militants. This means that English prog is not politically oriented. (But there may be some political prog songs). In Italy, on the other hand, the situation is different. In Italy, in the 1970s, either you're right-wing or you're left-wing, either you're a fascist or you're a communist, there's little middle ground, and everything is pigeonholed into ‘either you're with me or you're against me’. So music, song lyrics, clothes, everything has political connotations. Roxy Music are inevitably right-wing and loved by fascists just because of the way they dress and the cover art of their albums - their music or lyrics dont matter. So, in Italy, prog is ‘adopted’ by the left wing extra-parliamentary movement as anti-system music. But this does not mean that Italian prog songs are all political songs, or protest songs: only a few songs are explicitly political, and they are less so than the protest songs of folk songwriters. Furthermore, there are also Catholic ‘movementist’ groups in the seventies, which have their own following, for example the group Le Orme is loved by Catholics, it goes against the trend - I still have to talk about this: in the 1970s in Italy there were two epochal referendums, the one on divorce and the one on abortion, where Catholic and left-wing groups clashed, and prog music also made its contribution to the clash. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 05 2024 at 00:30
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So basically prog rock functioned as the proto-Twitter of 70's Italy. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 05 2024 at 04:25
Again, it's a question of the used definition of "the political", but anyway, in my opinion and as for instance Edward Macan more or less documents it in his Rocking the Classics, English Prog was born very much out of the '60s counterculture movement and was in many ways in opposition to the mainstream culture and the social order.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 05 2024 at 05:31
------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: November 05 2024 at 06:30
I havent read Rocking The Classics. But we must distinguish politics from custom: even rock and roll (Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry and JerrY Lee Lewis) was in opposition to the mainstream culture, but it was essentially a phenomenon of custom, without political connotations. In Italy music had political connotations, for example many artists and groups were contested from the public for political reasons. This phenomenon was not at all happened in the UK. In Italy, Le Orme were contested for the song "Gioco di bimba" (and for other songs) and Area contested Pfm for "Dolcissima Maria": they were too sentimental, sappy songs - not fit as leftish song. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: November 05 2024 at 07:15
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 05 2024 at 09:28
I'd say that it's the rather strong ideological (broadly defined) engagement of the English Prog that made it such creative, great and "timeless" - and quite the same with the German Krautrock, Italian Prog and a lot of other Prog.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: November 05 2024 at 12:13
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In 1967 a university student of literature who was reduced from a trip to the US in search of the places Bob Dylan talked about made his first appearance on Italian public TV. His name was Francesco Guccini and he was already 27 years old. In those years, public TV only broadcast entertainment programs, with melodic songs in the Sanremo Festival's style, that is, love songs with banal lyrics. Guccini brought a song called "Auschwitz - Song of the child in the wind", with lyrics that no one would have ever imagined at the time. It was a great event. I died with a hundred others, I died as a child, passed through the chimney and now I'm in the wind.... In Auschwitz there was snow, the smoke rose slowly In the cold winter day and now I am in the wind, now I am in the wind... I ask when will man be able to learn To live without killing and the wind will settle and the wind will settle... ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 05 2024 at 14:09
------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: November 06 2024 at 12:31
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One year after "Auschwitz", included in the first album by Guccini (1967), Folk Beat N. 1, Another 27-year-old university student, Fabrizio De André, appears on the Italian music scene with his debut album that has Gian Piero Reverberi (a cultured musician later with Le Orme) as arranger and producer, and indeed the arrangements are sometimes baroque as in this song, written in an archaic, almost Renaissance Italian. Both Guccini and De André surrounded themselves with musicians from the prog scene, while remaining singer-songwriters. De André, however, would often leave the writing of the music and the arrangements to very refined musicians, thus creating a very musically sophisticated form of song, at times baroque, at times neoclassical, at times ethnic in a world music style, and it is for this reason that only he appears here on Progarchives in the prog-related section. At the end of the 1970s, he made a famous tour with Pfm, who made new arrangements to his songs. De Andrč and Guccini, born in 1940, are today considered the fathers of Italian songwriting, both educated men of letters, poets of civil and political inspiration - they were both anarchists. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 07 2024 at 01:37
In 1972, Savage Rose made the album Dřdens Triumf (The Triumph of Death). It's some music written for a ballet by one of the most appreciated choreographers in the '70s Denmark, Flemming Flindt. It may not sound that counterculturally, but it was a ballet based on Jeu de Massacre, a play by Eugené Ionescu, and on the back cover of this album was a quote from the book The Wretched of the Earth (1961) by Frantz Fanon, a French Afro-Caribbean psychiatrist, political philosopher, and Marxist from the French colony of Martinique (today a French department).* The quote says: "Leave this Europe where they are never done talking of Man, yet murder men everywhere they find them, at the corner of every one of their own streets, in all the corners of the globe. For centuries they have stifled almost the whole of humanity in the name of a so-called spiritual experience. Look at them today swaying between atomic and spiritual disintegration." (The quote on the back cover is translated to Danish, while I quote it here in an English version as it's transcribed and printed by https://www.marxists.org/subject/africa/fanon/conclusion.htm * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frantz_Fanon )
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 07 2024 at 03:01
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^ Dřdens Triumf is all-instrumental except from the last track, "Dear little Mother", and here it is with Annisette's very special vocals: Dear little Mother Dear little Mother What's in your bag? Chocolate and sweets Dear Mr. Postman What's in your bag? A note from your beloved Dear Mr. Tailor What's in your bag? The finest wedding dress Dear Mr. Harvester What's in your bag? Solitude and death ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: November 08 2024 at 16:07
I know Fanon and Ionesco. Very interesting. I am totally ignorant of Danish music, I will ask you for a nice list of prog and folk albums, and songwriters albums, to listen to. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 08 2024 at 17:19
Actually, my own opinion about Danish music isn't very high, and my collection of it is very small. But here're some albums of the kind you ask for that I'm fond of and can recommend: Progressive music
Ache (DK) - De Homine Urbano (1970, quite interesting Prog-historically and an example of rare Danish Symphonic) Bazaar (DK) - Bazaar Live (1978, Prog Folk / World Fusion with East European, Turkish and Middle East influences) Burnin’ Red Ivanhoe (DK) - W.W.W. (1971, one of the most internationally appreciated Danish Prog bands) Secret Oyster (DK) - Sea Sun (1974, my absolutely fave Danish band since high school) Sievert & Tolonen (DK) - After Three Days (1978, Jazz Fusion with Latin and other influences) Non-progressive or not quite Bifrost (DK) - Bifrost (1976, very melodic/mainstream Folk-Rock, Danish vocals) Krćn Bysted (DK) - Stavnsbundet (1980, very political Folk-Rock, Danish vocals) Savage Rose (DK) - Dřdens Triumf (1972, ballet soundtrack, very special female vocalist) Sh*t & Chanel (DK) - Shit & Chanel (1975, all-female, very nice, soft, non-complex Jazz-Rock , Danish vocals) ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 08 2024 at 23:15
Hi, If you see the extended krautrock special, (the one with 6 parts -- the 6th is busted up because of the mention of David Bowie) ... Edgar Froese has some choice words on this ... it was intentional and a way to define something new for themselves and each other ... and only Holger and the Can website ever really mentioned the "anti-western" culture ideas .... something new and exciting ... which for the new generation was much more important than the old line of the arts ... I don't think that they were exactly thought of as bad, but the time had come for something else ... and sometimes, you have to let mom and dad go so you can grow up and be yourself ... it's rather simple, and I think that Edgar was right about this ... big time! I don't think that the Germans disguised themselves as anything but themselves (krautrock would not have developed without it !!!!), however, we all know and there is a massive history of it, that the media and the record companies INTENTIONALLY ignored the majority of the new music, until ... you got it ... all of a sudden it is selling big time in France, England and many other countries, and at that point the German companies watch their eyes light up ... money going away ... can't have that! In my book the only struggle to it all, was the media associating everything with VietNam and other political issues, and in the case of American media making sure that they made all the Western Culture scenes, dirty and ugly and smelly ... even though some bands are appreciated these days, about the only ones that survived it, were the original Beat Poets ... but, for them, it appeared to not have quite a political point, as much as an individual and fun/party thing, complete with a colorful bus ... without which we probably would have ignored the whole thing ... how bizarre that notion seems to us all that it might not have gone any further?
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 09 2024 at 02:20
Read my posts carefully, mosh. I specifically stated that I'm not counting the so called "krautrock" bands. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 09 2024 at 04:35
None of my favourites but two more of, what I think as, the most appreciated Danish Singer-Songwriters in the '70s Denmark: Sebastian (DK) - Den Store Flugt (1972) Kim Larsen (DK) - Vćrsgo (1973)
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: November 09 2024 at 06:15
Also, unlike British radio, which
primarily focused on commercial hit singles, Italian radio frequently
featured full albums or longer tracks. This approach enabled progressive
bands like Van der Graaf Generator to reach wider audiences by
highlighting their artistic qualities rather than solely their
commercial appeal. Rock concerts in Italy, especially those
highlighting experimentalism, would become shared experiences where
bonds between fans and bands alike were forged through their mutual
appreciation of complex musical stories. The live performances of Van
der Graaf Generator utterly fascinated such an Italian audience back
then. VdGG toured Italy when most British bands were either absent
from Italy or orientated towards other markets like the U.S. It thus
allowed them to secure a more dedicated audience there than they managed
to achieve in England, where their concerts were emotionally
not so participatory. In Italy, the concerts of the bands like VdGG evolved into collective
events that strengthened the bond between fans and artists and among fans themselves. Last
but not least, Italy had its underground music scene back in the late
sixties, which prepared both the audience and critics for the arrival of
things like progressive rock and bands like Van der Graaf Generator.
One just has to listen to this 18-minute avant-rock song by the band Le
Stelle di Mario Schifano, actually the entire A-side of their originally
red-coloured vinyl LP, released in 1967. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 09 2024 at 09:09
Hi, I'm not going to disagree on this at all ... however, I think that when the market started appearing in Germany (opening up to locals) things changed ... when Harvest came along and offered to release an album or two, Triumvirate would likely not have a choice to do these in English or not ... so it could sell in other places as well ... I would not consider that "masking" much, but a factor of the time and place. There are a couple of other releases by Harvest that also sang in English ... but then, you can look at Scorpions first album and they were singing in English, which means they knew where they could sell their stuff and singing in German was limiting their audience. IN this specific situation, I do not look at things as krautrock or not, since they are all pretty much in the same situation ... simply trying to sell some things and make a go of it. AD2 sang a lot in English, but did not shy away from using German when it seemed to make sense and it could be consider a satire, if not something else. BTW, the Germans could not exactly discuss history, politics and nationality at the time ... it was a part of their "restoration" and one of the conditions for many previous teachers in the old regime to be able to be employed and do some good ... they had to remain neutral, and this was rather clear in most "krautrock" areas, which at least one book defines 5 or 6 separate areas, all with very different agendas and ideas, that helped create a lot of music, very different ... and in some ways a bit of politics did make it through even if disguised a bit ... again, in my book, and the other huge one, to consider one band this and the other band from Munich something else, is a bit weird ... still the same country, but their work is vastly different, even more so on folks from Berlin. The very early issues of EUROCK shows the beginnings, of this era faithfully and with a lot of things that did not come to be known ... there was a lot of experimentation and things done, and I don't know if it fits properly, the discussion it is this or not ... and take away the freedom that a lot of that music showed us could take place ... even in PAm we do not believe that this can happen, EVER, again. We dismiss art left and right, and we all know that these things rarely happen on their own by accident.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 10 2024 at 05:47
I can very much recommend this book as still the main study of the English Progressive Rock in the 1970s. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: November 10 2024 at 07:38
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 10 2024 at 08:08
Hi, Guy Guden, of Space Pirate Radio, likely is the one that deserves the most praise for all this ... I had been, for several years (we were roommates then), a collector of all things HARVEST, and already had almost all of the folks listed in the Hipgnosis Cereal Box inner sleeve, with the bands listed as "ingredients". And just right after SPR got on the air full time (Jan 27th 1974), a lot of Harvest stuff showed up ... Triumvirat and Kayak and Eloy ... and I went on the lam looking for more and found other things ... Cherubin, Tanned Leather and Uno, for example, and I'm not sure I found any more after that. All of these got airplay on Guy's show, be it the special Sunday Night SPR (all imports then, no American stuff), or any other night time that he was on the air, which was still very heavy on the Europeans, unlike the rest of the station. BTW, it was the Album Cover Book, and the Hipgnosis Book that helped chase down a lot of these things, and there were STILL a lot of things I never really listened to or got a good feel on. But I think we nailed down the best and most important work around ... and I have examples that it was played! Something, that sadly, someone specified that I was just inventing crap for the sake of a post. I can't even reply to that ... and that poster will need to live with his ideas of "fake" out there ... can't even tell the truth from a lie, kind of thing! In general, I chased down anything Roger Dean or Harvest. I did drop off Roger Dean quickly even though the art work was so pretty ... but it had to substance to the music itself. Hipgnosis, kinda came off as an EDITORIAL for the whole thing, which made easier to understand and get ... you kinda knew that you were on the same wavelength as the band and the art around it ... and this became even better and more visible with 10CC later. ... but Mandy was dead!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 10 2024 at 09:08
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But honestly, I would've actually much prefered Triumvirat's vocal department had it been sung in native German. At least during the Helmut Köllen era. Same for Eloy. :v I have no idea why it was so embarrassing for German vocalists to sing in their mother tongue. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: November 10 2024 at 09:41
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Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 10 2024 at 11:26
------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 10 2024 at 14:57
Hi, I think this is a factor of the biggest place where things can sell, and that would be the United States, and then Great Britain, and both countries catered big time to the economic side of the music, something that many other countries did not do well. I suppose Italy and France are ... a bit weird in this department ... and their own languages seemed to be way more important than the English versions ... Ange never did anything in English that I can recall. I think that PFM hurt itself when it felt is had to do English so it could sell in America ... and surprise ... the imports did better when one considers all the years in between. Italy, however, had a massive history of music via opera like no one else ... so hearing things in Italian was never a surprise, but hearing them done in English was!!! The USA, has an issue with foreign languages, and it took several artists in the 70's take that one ... remember Linda Ronstadt that went full Spanish ... and it not only sold but became well known ... she went after the Hispanic folks in the South and Southwest ... the record company was not happy, but they lost that battle when things sold ... and since then, the majority of the Latino/Hispanic folks have enjoyed a fairly good amount of sales. And, at the time, you did not hear any of them on the FM Radio, or on regular AM radio ... The bad attitude was visible during the Space Pirate Radio days ... but Guy had a funny way of getting people to not worry about the language issues ... it's like watching a Fellini movie without the subtitles ... and a lot of fans enjoyed that kind of humor and then the bands being played. I don't think there was a single album, by PFM, Banco, Le Orme, Ange, AD2 (and just about all Krock folks), Granada, Mona Lisa, Sadistic Mika Band, and so many others that it would be nearly impossible for me to list ... that did a lot of their work in their own language ... and the kicker of it all was when the English version of Felona and Serona did not sell as much as the original ... which was an "import" that was really big and is still a favored album. I think the German thing, could have roots to WW2 ... and it might have been better to leave it behind ... and of course, most of the schlagger was in German, and we know via Guru Guru ... that the new God of music was rock music, not the stuff without the feedback! That song, in TANGO FANGO is really important in its incredible levels of satire ... but it would be good for us to remember that in those days, the Short Wave Radio was massive all over Europe blasting the other side with Beatles and a lot of rock music which might have been the greatest inspiration for the younger generation being forced to eat schlagger. At that point, I imagine that German is not at all favored ... but that's just a thought.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: November 10 2024 at 15:51
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‘Bombs go off in the squares and these people go around singing Sweetest Mary [Dolcissima Maria]? Are you kidding me?’ With these laconic words, Area's Patrizio Fariselli not only hinted at what he thought of Pfm's new album [Isola di Niente], but also highlighted between the lines the musical divide that had been increasingly emerging since 1974: politicised experimental avant-garde on the one hand and a progressive stylistic softening on the other. (Taken from this wonderful blog about Prog and counterculture: https://classikrock.blogspot.com/2009/09/pfm-lisola-di-niente-1974.htm" rel="nofollow - https://classikrock.blogspot.com/2009/09/pfm-lisola-di-niente-1974.htm l) In 1974 in Italy there was a referendum in which Catholics (Christian Democrats) and neo-fascists (Social Movement) wanted to abolish the divorce law. The referendum saw the left win: divorce remained the law. In reaction to this (but not only to this, to a lot of things), a civil war climate broke out in Italy. Deviated sectors of the secret services with black terrorism attempted to organise a coup d'état, which failed. They set off two bombs, one in the central square of Brescia (8 dead and a hundred injured), a town near Milan, the other on a train (12 dead and fifty injured). For left-wing armed struggle groups, these bombs, reminiscent of those of 1969, are a sign that the fascists are trying to seize power. We are in civil war, according to many. From 1974 onwards, the left-wing armed struggle will move from demonstration operations with limited vioence to kidnappings and voluntary killings, i.e. political assassinations. This is the sense of the phrase of Fariselli, the main composer of Area's music. (In my opinion, ‘Dolcissima Maria’ is really one of the songs with lyrics and music that in Italy were only sung by the corny, cloying, hyperglycemic Sanremo festival singers such as I Ricchi e i Poveri: a real insult to left-wing prog- but Pfm was now aiming at the American market, they had betrayed Italian movementist prog) ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 17:23
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FABRIZIO DE ANDRE' - STORIA DI UN IMPIEGATO this album, published in 1973, explains what the atmosphere was like in Italy at that time Read the wonderful review by Octopus-4 This is the story. Fabrizio De Andre' writes a concept album about the 1968 French movement and how the middle class (the "Impiegato") reacted to it. Of course lyrics are often more important than music, even if Fabrizio was a classical trained guitarist. "Introduzione"(Intro) takes less than two minutes. After a quite proggy instrumental part, Voice and classical guitar with just few synth behind says clearly what the album is about. "They had enough time, also for jail. Outside the same rage, the sane Spring were waiting for them". The second track, one of the most known of this album, starts immediately. "Canzone del Maggio"(Song about May) is obviously referred to the rebellion in France on My '68. It's one of the protesters telling to the middle class "Even though you actually thought to be absolved, You were completely involved". It means that in front of a rebellion you are part of what happens regardless the side you decide to be on. The message is quite similar to the trade unions anthem written by Woody Guthrie: "Which Side Are You On". It also mentions things like the biased media coverage, something that doesn't seem to be different today, if not worsened. Musically speaking it has a little Country-rock flavor, do to the finger-picking and the harmonica, but the baritonal voice of Fabrizio has a particular tone. "La Bomba In Testa" reprises the melody and the chord progression of the Intro. It tells the story of an anarchist who joines the cause, leaving his job and his good sentiments to become a "warrior". The song speaks of a bomb, but it's probably referring to the clashes at the Sorbona University. The last verse tells about "placing a bomb at a masked dance, and "Al Ballo Mascherato (To TheMask Dance)" is the following song. Totally different from the previous from a musical point of view, has a sort of fun feeling. Even if a bomb is about to explode, the participants are happily dancing. Still flavored by a Country feeling it's driven by the bass with the guitar sounding as much as possible like a fiddle. "Sogno Numero Due(Dream #2)" is a prog song. It's uptime with a blown flute that reminds to "Concerto Grosso" by New Trolls more than to Ian Anderson. It explains what the previous song is really about. It this is the Dream #2, the Mask Dance is the dream #1. The anarchist dreams to put a bomb in a gala full of "celebrities". This second dream is about putting the judge, and the law itself, under trial. Making justice of the corrupt society of that time. If only he could have imagined how we would have ended to nowadays... Anyway, after the jazzy flute section there's a speech part backed by a percussive bass. This is the verse. The chorus is te instrumental part driven by the flute. "La Canzone Del Padre (The Song Of The Father)" is folky and on the chord progressions more familiar to the listeners of De Andre'. It's very similar to the kind of songs of "La Buona Novella". It's not very easy to interpret because it's a true poetry. In the dream, the protagonist takes the place of his father dead in the bombing of the previous dream. "Il Bombarolo(The bomber)" in now awake. After three dreams he decides to place a real bomb. He wants to make it explode in front of the parliament but by mistake it destroys only a newspapers kiosk. He is then arrested and jailed. The act is completely useless. Musically it's a nice folk tune with some unexpected passage. Now what I think is the best song of the whole album: "Verranno a Chiederti del Nostro Amore(They'll come to ask you about our love)". It's a slow waltz. The bomber talks to his wife, who is now the wife of a jailed terrorist and is persecuted by the media. This is one of the best songs by De Andre' in terms of melody and chords progression. One of my favorites at least. Finally, from the prison, the bomber has the time to rethink to his errors: the individual act has no meaning as a revolution must be carried on by the people. "Nella mia ora di liberta'(In my hour of freedom)" he decided to give up to that hour because he doesn't want to share it with the cops. In the end he has done a mistake, but his reasons were right. It's a slow finger-picking, again with a country-rock arrangement but with a interludes with a RPI flavor. Not the best album by De Andre' but still an excellent one. Full of poetry as usual. Somebody once said "Faber is the Italian Bob Dylan". He was replied: "Wrong. Bob Dylan is the American De Andre'". ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 19:14
| ^The English lyrics to that song by PFM are different than the Italian; same music, but the song "Just Look Away" is about a street musician playing his violin and being ignored by all the people hurrying by him..... |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 23:31
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Some of the English lyrics by PFM were written/translated by Peter Sinfield. He was granted some "creative freedom" by the band. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 21 2024 at 06:33
Hi, This is almost always an issue with translations since some of the bits and pieces would be particular to one area and not necessarily translate well to another. This was a HUGE issue in the translation of a lot of my own father's poetry into other languages, specially English ... all of a sudden, all of it became a sort of political activism, and not the real poem at all ... to be honest ... IT WAS DISGUSTING! According to Pasolini, Italy had some serious political/philosophical problems in the country and they (usually) involved the north against the south (so to speak), but in general, anything was an excuse to say something good or bad about the other!
Still, as the example above, his translations were not that good ... and I have to re-read them now to see what other comments I can add/subtract ... but, again, the majority of translations are a serious issue in any language, and in the case of this political/social situation, it will suffer, and outsiders not exactly a part of it all will not interpret things better than otherwise. This was a horrible issue in one story from my dad that was not political at all ... let's say that it fits well in a slightly older child story ... and the character found a piece of material on the road that was red, and put it on his shoulder ... and guess what ... the translation immediately made that a "symbol" against the authorities ... it killed the poem for me ... that had a nice, quiet, pastoral innocence (I really thought that was the idea behind the story, btw!!!), that all of a sudden was distorted viciously in my imagination ... felt like we're draining the children, kind of thing ... a la "City of Lost Children". SIDE NOTE: The harder part, and worst, is that we don't even care to understand or relate to the actual lyrics. If we take a year worth of news from London, 6 months before and 6 months after the release of ITCOTCK ... and then put that against the lyrics, you will find that many of them are very much on topic with some of the issues in that generation, up to and including the political/social situations, that in America were severely thrashed by the media via the White House (gotta make sure they don't know anything about VietNam ... ) ... to the point of thinking that all youngsters, EVEN listening to some of that music, were dirty, ugly and anti-American!!!!! Thus, even English on English can not even get some respect and attention!!! And guess what? ... this is still prevalent in America today! And a huge part why the "news", local or otherwise, are completely ignored because of the Internet. My main concern here, is that because of the words, a lot of the artistic material is ignored ... and not given proper credit and attention ... thus America will only recognize "art" when it sells for $1 million in NY ... and the rest? Toilet Poopoo! SIDE NOTE 2: When the family went to Brazil in 1959, it might be thought of as dad wishing to leave his high level military standard for literature, as he was already fairly well known in the area of film reviews and literary reviews and translations of many books by that time. What we don't know is how much of it was a possible government threat against his family ... and pretty much all of the work after 1959, did not have political/social implications so visible at all ... and both parents NEVER EVER said anything about it ... and 4 years after dad passed away, mom was still being investigated in Santa Barbara!!!!! Probably due to stuff she was publishing, although most of it was literary minded and not political/social topics as far as I know. I have never seen a listing of the stuff she published at all, after dad passed away. But it's really hard to not think there was something to it, specially as the neighbor country had set out many years before to snuff out a lot of artists, writers, painters and others ... for political reasons, and many of them ran off to France, specially, and the rest of Europe to get away from the Generalissimo.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 21 2024 at 07:38
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I guess that the most significant single expression of the Danish counterculture in the 1970s was establishment of Christiania. Here's something about it as it's written by Wikipedia. .................... On 26 September 1971, Christiania was declared open by Jacob Ludvigsen, a well-known https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provo_%28movement%29" rel="nofollow - provo and journalist who published a magazine called Hovedbladet ('The main paper'), which was intended for and successfully distributed to mostly young people. In the paper, Ludvigsen wrote an article in which he and five others explored what he termed 'The Forbidden City of the Military'. The article widely announced the proclamation of the free town, and among other things he wrote the following under the headline "Civilians conquered the 'forbidden city' of the military"." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania# ) ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |