Would Yes be censored if...?
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Category: Topics not related to music
Forum Name: General discussions
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133793
Printed Date: November 27 2024 at 05:08
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Topic: Would Yes be censored if...?
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Subject: Would Yes be censored if...?
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 14:52
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Dear progarchives forumists, it's interesting to see so many threads open on political prog songs and then to see that if I post, a BBOBBYY's song entitled "One Year Of Genocide", here: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133789" rel="nofollow - https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133789 Greg promptly closes my thread. Yet I wrote absolutely nothing political, I merely posted the video of the song. It transpires that Greg closed a topic for the words and video of the song, i.e. for a form of artistic expression pertaining to music. Then this opens up some considerations, these yes political ones, about what happens in countries at war, and in particular in countries that support genocide - which today, 2024, can only require massive media manipulation. We have been used to thinking of dictatorships, of the control of information, of the selective political participation as expressions of Nazism or Stalinism. Maksim Gorky checked under Stalin that Soviet literary works adhered to ‘socialist realism’, and after him in the old USSR, uncomfortable literary works circulated clandestinely as ‘samizdat’. But what is happening in the United States today? That legitimate political considerations, i.e. opinions, lead to resignations from teaching in universities. That Israeli historian Ilan Pappé, author of ‘The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine’ is stopped and interrogated at the airport, i.e. intimidated. Pappé himself struggles to find a publisher in Germany. Literary works are not awarded prizes at the Frankfurt Book Fair if they are written by Palestinians, and in Germany anyone who wears a keffiyeh or proclaims From the River to the Sea Palestine will Be Free (a slogan with a long history, the meaning of which has nothing to do with Hamas) risks being put on trial. Directors of films or documentaries about Palestine are accused of anti-Semitism (even if they are Jewish!) in the US and throughout Europe. There is no need today for a specific liberticidal law to pander to propaganda and restrict not only forms of political expression but also forms of artistic expression: literature, painting, comics, songs. Somebody says: there are other places to talk about politics. But in reality, institutionalised venues are even more influenced by propaganda. For example, in the US the venues to talk about the Gaza genocide and the boycott of Israel do not exist, university students on campuses are arrested. I have been following Jill Stein of the Green Party for the past months: the space given to her by the media is completely punitive compared to that given to Harris or Trump. Is the US a democracy or a duopoly in the hands of two strings of rich families who own the media? And if we look at non-institutionalised venues such as Meta (Facebook) we notice that even more so the censorship of posts is unidirectional (it was only a few days ago that Zuckerberg put a former Netanyahu aide in charge of controlling/censoring posts about Palestine). Should we try to create forms of "samizdat"? But in the case of the song One Year of Genocide, which I posted, we are in the presence of a form of artistic expression posted in a music forum that also has space dedicated to music other than prog. So in what sense should that song be posted elsewhere? Why would that song be out of place? One suspects that one can talk about political songs here on progarchives as long as they are not about the genocide in Gaza or the war in Ukraine. Is this the case? Who is discriminating? Is Greg-Logan (for whom I have great respect: this is not personal) designated to play the arduous role of Gorkij? Gorky chose the political novels to be published and censored, even if they were ironic, even if the message was ambiguous, pluralistic, like any art form. Is Logan trying to make a difficult discernment between political songs that can be published and left for discussion and political songs that should be immediately closed in the thread where they are posted? All this happens, like dominoes, voluntarily, without I repeat specific liberticidal laws, because we live in a West engaged in a now chronic war and in supporting a genocide that happens every day under the sun. In the East they may be worse, but should we move towards authoritarian if not dictatorial states? Where is the boundary of what is publishable and open for discussion each time? In other words, the question is: Would be closed a thread dedicated to the song "One Year Of Genocide", if it was published by Yes (or Dream Theater, or Steve Wilson etc.)? Yes? No? And why? Thanks for the reading.
------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Replies:
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 16:49
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The whole free speech issue certainly seems to be coming to a head, right now in the U.S. with comedian Tony Hinchcliffe being seriously called out for an appearance in NYC at a Trump rally and his "If you criticize my racist, homophobic, anti-society style, you are the one with a problem... you are the one with no sense of humor." But here's the thing-- If one wants to be able to say or post anything regardless of how it lands or who finds it sick, vile, and extremist, then you have to eat that and deal with the consequences. Free speech goes both ways. To quote comedian Jay Black : “If you say something racist or sexist or anti-trans or anti-gay, any of those things, you’re not going to jail for that. But if people don’t like it and don’t laugh and they say that was a bad thing to say, well, that’s their right, too,” said Black, who was among those in the comedy industry who criticized Hinchcliffe’s jokes online. “You made a bad joke and did not get away with it because you didn’t present it in a way that was clever or original or spoke to the zeitgeist in such a way to make them laugh. The answer isn’t that the world is too soft, but rather that previously acceptable forms of racist comedy are now viewed as so stupid that many audiences no longer have an appetite for them." And that's just how it is. Demand open policies & free speech? Then be prepared to pay the price and don't whine about you're poor lost freedoms when people around you, maybe even friends and supporters, are saying, "Okay but you can't want absolute freedom to say or do anything and then complain about it as if you're being unfairly censored." You're not being censored, you're living in the real world, and that world may not tolerate the kind of ignorant, race-baiting, misogynistic idiocy it did when comedy was performed in a private club or on an album you bought and listened to in your car or livingroom. Things change, man, and you ignore those changes and social norms at a price. Again, free speech goes both ways, and that's just tough. And so my personal response is this: Grow up and stop whining when you say something utterly stupid or contemptible and you get pushback. It's called Free Speech and we all have it, not just the Far-Right toddlers who hide behind constitutional protections in order to have a career and attract semi-Fascist wanderers who are so disturbed and bitter about their mean fathers or lack of friends & love-relationships that they take it out on humanity as a whole. Deal with it. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 17:12
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It was quite obvious that you posted it for the message and you have had other topics closed you have been involved in. Why did you post it? As a Prog Reviewer, do you have access to the collab zone? If you do, see this: https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55750" rel="nofollow - https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55750 We had very recently had another thread closed due to having a political message. This was my response to a mention of an album in PA by pone of my favourite bands, Godspeed You! Black Emperor, which makes clear its message in the title.
I also wrote this earlier today when David D asked a question: See https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133594" rel="nofollow - https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133594 Regarding David D thread that was locked earlier than yours.
And as I wrote in your topic when closing it after actually fixing the embed so people could see it and explaining how it's done:
You have made your agenda and views abundantly clear and I am sympathetic to the atrocities that have been committed and plight of many poor innocent people. I wish we could discuss this, but tempers flare which is why we decided to stop certain topics. As for if it were yes, it depends on how the topic was handled. I think it was very clear in your important comment and sharing it that it was not the music but the message, and because you have done topics on this before it was clear. Let's be honest and transparent. By the way, I hate having to clean up this stuff and deal with it, but it is my responsibility to deal with complaints and I was part of that decision making process with other collabs and admin to disallow political threads (but with some latitude). I think I've put plenty of effort into trying to explain. And it clear that you wish to push certain message. Avoid pushing your political perspectives here. There are better sites for it. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Logan wrote:Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 17:40
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Proselytizing and discussion are two very different things. When the religious kooks knock on your door, they are not looking for a discussion, they are there because they think you are ignorant and lost and your opinion means nothing to them. We do have a couple people on this site who feel the urge to proselytize, and it is just as annoying as the religious kooks knocking on your door. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 17:42
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We need to Progelytize the masses, not proselytize them. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 18:10
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Solution: create a new subforum for political discussion only separate from "General Discussion" and "General Polls". And only grant access to that forum to those who are serious about it and those who are gonna keep the discussions civil. No bigots, trolls, ideological kooks, proselytizers etc. allowed. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 18:24
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^ HA-- good luck with that. It's a pipedream. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 18:26
If we didn't allow those people in there, all you'd hear are crickets chirping.  While a subforum could be set up like that, it is the most passionate of people who tend to be the least civil, and likely would most like having it. It could have its own moderator. Otherwise, and I once suggested this, it could be a no holds barred political arena (with some rules that people abide by certain laws). To use a pejorative term, snowflakes need not apply. It would become like a war-room, battle royale, but I see problems with doing that and I could see issues spilling over into other parts of the forum. One thing that has been said is that this is a music site first, and the emphasis even in the forum should be about the music. Another idea would be for someone to set up a forum at another site to discuss politics to one's heart's content or get together for an existing one elsewhere. I encourage people to use other sites fro such things. I used to belong to a Project Reason forum which could discuss religion and politics very freely, but it's not going any longer. It really did help to hone one's logic and arguments. I wish I had challenged myself to post there more. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 18:59
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Such forums already exist, check the comment section at the end of any news story on Yahoo, they have rules that are monitored by auto censor, but creative spelling easily gets around any of that. Then of course there is Facebook and X (formerly known as a social media site that actually made money, instead of losing it, called Twitter) and many many more |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:06
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Logan, when you write: By the, we have disallowed political discussions at PA due to the reactions it has brought about and, as I expected, this video has very political dimension. Of course politics/message is often an important part of a song and it would be problematic to not allow mentioning songs that have a political component, but since this topic is about the message on a topic that is politically charged, I will lock this. The title itself for the video, The Song Israel Doesn't Want You To Hear, makes its biases clear as do the lyrics I totally disagree. I posted a song, being careful not to connote it a in a political way. That you see a political intent in what I do is your own projection. The facts say that I merely posted a song, I would say of the protest song strand - a strand that I love. In my opinion, in its genre, it is a very good song, done well. The video found online had that title, but the song I believe is called One Year of Genocide. Now, the point is: who's playing politics here, me or you editors of the forum? I just post songs I like, of whatever kind, regardless of the message they have - but does a form of artistic expression have a clear message for everyone? Or can what it elicits in the user be very different? The one who censors a song that deals with a political issue, in my opinion, is the only one who really does politics, because he claims to impose on everyone what the song said to him and, based on that, decide to accept or censor that song. This is a political way of acting that I would call reactionary/authoritarian attitude that even goes so far as to violate the artistic merits of works of art and this attitude has historically prevented many valuable works of art from coming to public knowledge. But it is a political attitude that you forum editors have adopted, if you have gone so far as to ban even songs with a political theme - or certain songs with a political theme. This is no longer a music forum, but a politically oriented music forum in the sense of censoring songs with politically sensitive themes - if this had been done in the 1970s, Stormy Six and Area would have been banned in this forum. And in fact I asked: What would happen if Yes wrote a political song or a political album about war in Ukraine or Middle East in this forum? To be honest, I still dont know the answer. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:12
I think your question was a bit manipulative. It's like you assumed the band Yes to be more of an authority to the prog rock forum crowd and those "dumb prog rockers" would be more likely to "buy" a moralizing message in a song from Yes rather than an underground hip hop band. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:22
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^^ Lorenzo. Sharing the music would be fine, especially if not exposing one's own biases or seeming to have an agenda other than sharing the music that you think others might be interested in or enjoy. I have inferred because you have made topics before on the subject of the song and not just from a music perspective. It's an agenda that you have demonstrated time and time again. Moderators look for patterns of behaviour, and it is obvious with you. We have a topic for mentioning videos in General Music Discussions. Had you not made a topic there then I would not have interfered. I also have changed my mind on locked topics, or an avatar recently which i had removed, when people have PMed me explaining their intentions. I did not censor the music, I even properly embedded it and said how to do it. What I did do was censor any future discussion on it in the thread by locking the thread. The topic is visible. We made decisions as collaborators. If you have access to the collab zone, other Prog Reviewers do, then I suggest you present your case for changes there. I'd sit out of it until it develops, but of course if called on that it got to heated, I would have to deal with it. This stuff is time-consuming and believe me, I don't enjoy it one bit. I suggest that we avoid politically charged and controversial topics here. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:26
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Anyway, I think in that case the discussion would be way more interesting. And that has nothing to do with this forum's moderation. The band Yes is a strongly established brand amongst the members of this Progarchives community. Users here know the Yes catalogue in much greater detail than some random noname rapper BBOBBYY whose only notable song is a political protest song. So naturally, if a group of Yes fans on a prog rock forum see someone post a random out of place rap song, some might see that as something a bit suspicious. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:29
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And the fact James Balwin's forum thread in which that BBOBBYY song was posted was clearly made with the intention to spark political talk and not a musical one doesn't help. The common grounds between the users of this forum are clearly based on the musical taste and not the political polarity. Almost as if James tried to deliberately make the users here start a flamewar. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:34
As I tried to write some time ago in a thread, one of the greatest masterpieces of Italian prog, Zarathustra by Museo Rosenbach was actually censored in Italy by the music media because the group was considered fascist, which led to the band's disbandment and to a very slow reception of the album, only to be appreciated over the years. Who was politicised, those who stigmatised it, or the musicians of the group, who moreover were not fascists at all and did not want to send political but existential messages? So what would happen on this forum today if a big name in prog were to release a masterpiece, controversial album with political lyrics? If we had trouble talking about that album, we would risk misunderstanding a masterpiece. Here, I pose questions that have to do with how to understand art, whatever its content, not with politics. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:36
Logan locking another thread be like: ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:44
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^ Haha, love that cat and mouse Runner meets Sandmen scene. If such topics keep "running", expect termination. ^^ The big issue has been pushing a political agenda. It's one thing to posit on the themes of prog music at a prog forum, it's another to push a message. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:53
Hyrchu writes: "And the fact James Balwin's forum thread in which that BBOBBYY song was posted was clearly made with the intention to spark political talk and not a musical one doesn't help. The common grounds between the users of this forum are clearly based on the musical taste and not the political polarity. Almost as if James tried to deliberately make the users here start a flamewar." You have no elements to say this about me. This is a trial of intentions, and in the trial of intentions anyone can attribute any intention to a person they want to attack in order to justify their attack. It is a dishonest method, whereas an honest method is to stick to what one does and says. But I see what you're getting at, the technique is always the same: attacking a person who hasn't attacked anyone personally and raising the tone of the discussion (even attributing to me the intention of stirring up a war between forumists) in such a way as to shut down the thread by then blaming me. Now, I have known these methods for months now. It makes no difference to me, I take it for granted that this thread will be closed, but I point out that it's dishonest to attribute things to me that I dont say and that I dont do. I have given up talking about politics here months ago. Yesterday I only posted a song I like, without making any speeches. To attribute intentions of any other kind to me is the abc of impropriety. I would have no problem posting a song of the opposite orientation, lyrically, to the one posted, if I liked it. I repeat, I am for the free expression of all forms of art, in this site art is music, I consider political to claim to dictate what a certain form of art means and to select only some. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 21:32
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^ The level of disingenuousness you display regarding your intent reaches near farcical levels. I call bullsh*t here and now. "This is an important song." ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 30 2024 at 22:13
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Carousel is a lie. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 31 2024 at 07:13
| The couple of people on this site who feel a burning need to push political propaganda don't seem to be interested in the site for anything other than that. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2024 at 07:48
Do you really think so?  ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 31 2024 at 08:24
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^ It is stirring the pot. ^^^ And there is no sanctuary. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 31 2024 at 09:48
 Politics? Hmm...that was banned ages ago..
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2024 at 11:18
I'd say, it's the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that does it. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: October 31 2024 at 11:20
------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 31 2024 at 11:24
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Just stop it. Or I'll happily suspend both of you. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2024 at 12:34
That would be a pitty, and it was not my intention to start a discussion about the conflict.  ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: October 31 2024 at 12:34
Dear Greg, dear administrators, dear forum members only authoritarian regimes, dictatorships, go to investigate ‘intentions’. In fact, Gorky went so far as to ban the novels of two of the greatest Russian writers of the 20th century: Bulgakov and Platonov (I highly recommend the latter, who is less well known than Bulgakov) because they were ironic about certain dynamics of Soviet Russia, so he suspected their intentions, but they were not actually anti-communist. Even the East German Stasi interrogated suspects to find out their intentions. Civilised and democratic countries stick to their words and facts. Laws sanction certain words and certain facts regardless of intentions. Precisely because with the ‘trial of intentions’, one can attribute any intention that suits us to the one we want to punish. But isn't this the logic of war? I bomb you, I destroy you because you have the intention of destroying me (I decide what your intentions of my supposed enemy are, so I am free to do what I want). So, what my intention opening the thread BBOBBYY was is completely irrelevant. I posted a song that I think is important in today's landscape. I obviously wanted many to listen to it, and to see the video, that goes without saying. I made no political comment. These are the facts. Those who attribute to me intentions of wanting to make a political speech are committing an impropriety worthy of repressive authoritarian regimes (and this should give the forum administrators pause for thought). I alone am authorised to explain my intentions. And I know that I had set out not to make any political comments on the song lyrics, because I gave up trying to discuss politics in this forum months ago. And that is also why I frequent the forum less and less. If I wanted to use this song to make political speeches, I would have done so straight away, that has always been my style when I open a thread (if you don't believe it, go and check the old threads I opened). I predicted that the thread would have been closed because I imagined that some forumist would start talking about the lyrics of the song to polemicise and ask for the thread to be closed. What I did not imagine was that the thread would be closed without any comment, attributing it to me or the song to be political. From here my question: if Yes have written this song what would have been happened? (a question that was not answered by anyone). That is why I opened this thread. And this thread was instead opened by me with the intention of discussing how political censorship inevitably also leads to censorship of art. And I repeat: I would interest to listen to (and to analyze) any songs about Gaza and Israel, no matter the contents of the lyrics). But here this is not possible. Now I'm going back to my hobby as a human rights activist. Because in reality, talking about international law, what the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court say about what is happening in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and what the duties of Israel and its allies (USA and EU) are, is not politics, but civic education on international legality. In this forum, this discussion is not allowed. As much as we can, I and other teachers do it at school with our students. And it was one of our students who pointed out the song by BBoBBYY to us. We saw it in class, we read the lyrics carefully because there are many quotes that need to be contextualized, we watched it again at half speed, because the editing is very fast and you can't see all the images well. And I think it's very well done. A song that in 4 minutes manages to condense a remarkable series of images and quotes with a good rhythm. That's why I think it's important. Are these last sentences of mine political or are they critical analyses of an artistic musical product? So, I'm fine with this thread closing too. I've said what I had to say. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |