Arena Rock: 4th Album
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: General Music Discussions
Forum Description: Discuss and create polls about all types of music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133400
Printed Date: November 27 2024 at 06:39
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Arena Rock: 4th Album
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Subject: Arena Rock: 4th Album
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 02:51
 1978: AC/DC - Powerage - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l3pAO2qdUMV-QSSmoaf6qAtnHmztLNacg" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l3pAO2qdUMV-QSSmoaf6qAtnHmztLNacg 1976: Aerosmith - Rocks - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mjdNBMhb75_NTAudgzktH2WaMU4JTTIRU" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mjdNBMhb75_NTAudgzktH2WaMU4JTTIRU 1992: Asia - Aqua - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ng5dsGOX4sdicI7uGu--fec7maqtzOtAk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ng5dsGOX4sdicI7uGu--fec7maqtzOtAk  1975: Blue Oyster Cult - On Your Feet or on Your Knees - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ln-ZPea2zFdZ1zM12gRHLExNIo-yl12aQ" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ln-ZPea2zFdZ1zM12gRHLExNIo-yl12aQ 1988: Bon Jovi - New Jersey - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ltQfXDdZCbibEE_oqmLEJ1KaA5WuXxfpI" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ltQfXDdZCbibEE_oqmLEJ1KaA5WuXxfpI 1994: Boston - Walk On - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nohhpJ6CEp7bY6xhIFA3tfNYt7wowt0Ew" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nohhpJ6CEp7bY6xhIFA3tfNYt7wowt0Ew 1987: Def Leppard - Hysteria - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mTLr7-VXRiKoo3TTPbcKPSLQ7WnegbN28" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mTLr7-VXRiKoo3TTPbcKPSLQ7WnegbN28 1988: Europe - Out of This World - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ljzx7JOqKfHS_7nB1Lg8EqXOEuAavMfCs" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ljzx7JOqKfHS_7nB1Lg8EqXOEuAavMfCs 1981: Foreigner - 4 - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_koZi3YohoEIWNVqJwGd2D6c_sSv3SE6oc" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_koZi3YohoEIWNVqJwGd2D6c_sSv3SE6oc 1978: Heart - Dog & Butterfly - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kwEgFCpr5o8MS-ZKaTcm9eBpfDeKm5RDo" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kwEgFCpr5o8MS-ZKaTcm9eBpfDeKm5RDo 1978: Jefferson Starship - Earth - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nn8zOggoVGOFx2mr_NUZhFv8TS8Kp0axg" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nn8zOggoVGOFx2mr_NUZhFv8TS8Kp0axg 1978: Journey - Infinity - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nXaVrTJaduzi9fm7tak1iN_GJ_OmpiZ0I" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nXaVrTJaduzi9fm7tak1iN_GJ_OmpiZ0I 1976: Kansas - Leftoverture - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lAIRwW0WbNbWb_-vNWeUH_D9lKJP1406I" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lAIRwW0WbNbWb_-vNWeUH_D9lKJP1406I 1975: Kiss - Alive! - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_k-6wOcD3tau2Li1MtcuCJO3a_sKvZfHy0" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_k-6wOcD3tau2Li1MtcuCJO3a_sKvZfHy0 1984: Meat Loaf - Bad Attitude - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lcIhmeanPaWeGhpTy5h8kt1zsIbM-AhuA" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lcIhmeanPaWeGhpTy5h8kt1zsIbM-AhuA  1975: Queen - A Night at the Opera - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kTV6O4QNnkTdBPpcOEUcHqNFQ6Y9jrKbA" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kTV6O4QNnkTdBPpcOEUcHqNFQ6Y9jrKbA 1978: Rainbow - Long Live Rock 'n' Roll - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kAA2BxnQ9Vz8g5tLQDENJ0RAfulNz7qCE" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kAA2BxnQ9Vz8g5tLQDENJ0RAfulNz7qCE 1974: REO Speedwagon - Lost in a Dream - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nXKcXrw_--iwIWZ9N8Ej1fn1Nja7D4hHE" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nXKcXrw_--iwIWZ9N8Ej1fn1Nja7D4hHE 1966: The Rolling Stones - Aftermath - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nFET96D08weKHRXPAgTBXl9fmK-3z7UMQ" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nFET96D08weKHRXPAgTBXl9fmK-3z7UMQ 1976: Rush - 2112 - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_miQ0aViBzxOZj7XbA6Q61Mo5FM84xvTdU" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_miQ0aViBzxOZj7XbA6Q61Mo5FM84xvTdU 1974: Styx - Man of Miracles - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL198A40E0588B45B8" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL198A40E0588B45B8 1983: Survivor - Caught in the Game - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mASZpVq6ENh4vn37lixE_E90yczJIK1fA" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mASZpVq6ENh4vn37lixE_E90yczJIK1fA 1982: Toto - Toto IV - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m2QlEWxtNVMr_UTLBZVvlg1JpHue3wyx8" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m2QlEWxtNVMr_UTLBZVvlg1JpHue3wyx8 1981: Van Halen - Fair Warning - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mDWU6EykXw6WXztw6vZMdrwo0ttP8B5Dk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mDWU6EykXw6WXztw6vZMdrwo0ttP8B5Dk 1969: The Who - Tommy - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1PFeUii2egesbBFdLYu9gkWW1XbJLPkH" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1PFeUii2egesbBFdLYu9gkWW1XbJLPkH |
Replies:
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 03:04
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Kansas - Rush - Journey (always thought Infinity was rather swish... last one with Dunbar on Drums, IIRC?) I really think you ought to remove Rush from this poll, to make it more even and interesting, Paul..? ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 03:35
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Rainbow The Rolling Stones Queen Def Leppard The Who -all solid seven or eights out of ten. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 05:16
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Kansas Rush Aerosmith The Who |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 05:53
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Kansas just ahead of Rush. I'm leasing my pants to Upper Deck. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 06:27
I don't see any reason to remove Rush. It's not as if they're running away with this poll.
 |
Jared wrote:Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 07:35
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1. Queen - A Night at the Opera 2. The Who - Tommy 3. Rainbow - Long Live Rock 'n' Roll 4. Blue Oyster Cult - On Your Feet or on Your Knees 5. Toto - Toto IV
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 08:53
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Tommy, surely a friend of mine, while the others.... ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 09:56
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Leftoverture Fair Warning Long Live Rock 'n' Roll Dog & Butterfly 2112 On Your Feet or On Your Knees 4 A Night at the Opera Caught in the Game IV ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Steve Wyzard
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 12:59
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1. Leftoverture 2. Rocks 3. Walk on 4. 2112
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 13:16
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The Who's Tommy over Heart's Dog & Butterfly. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 13:25
Yes, but in your next poll, A Farewell To Kings is going to come up against Freedom At Point Zero, which may cause a melt-down of my remaining brain cells...  ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: mellotronwave
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 14:00
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Kansas Leftoverture by miles Fixed 
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 14:05
I hope Overture wasn't too upset by Kansas due to being left so far behind. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 15:15
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It may be interesting to see this genre description by RYM, as it should be relevant for a large part of the bands included in this series of polls: "AOR, short for Adult Oriented Rock, is a sub-genre of https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/rock/" rel="nofollow - Rock that emerged in the late 1970s and early 1980s as an amalgamation of https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/hard-rock/" rel="nofollow - Hard Rock , https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/pop-rock/" rel="nofollow - Pop Rock and https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/progressive-rock/" rel="nofollow - Progressive Rock . It is characterized by a rich, layered sound, slick production and a heavy reliance on commercial melodic hooks, which led to its huge popularity in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Adult-oriented rock is commonly conflated with but distinguished from the US "album-oriented rock" FM radio format, also called AOR, which played not only adult-oriented rock but also album tracks and "deep cuts" from a variety of other rock genres. AOR songs are almost always electric guitar and synthesizer-driven, occasionally crossing over with other popular synth-driven genres such as https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/synthpop/" rel="nofollow - Synthpop and https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/new-wave/" rel="nofollow - New Wave , very often including harmonized vocals. The catchy, singalong choruses combined with relatively short song lengths and a bombastic, anthemic quality modeled after prog’s theatrical ambitions make AOR a very radio-friendly genre. The songs are typically more melodic than most straightforward hard rock, but harder edged than most pop rock, not unlike https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/power-pop/" rel="nofollow - Power Pop ‘s marriage of sugary harmonies and muscular, driving riffs." ( https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/aor/ ) ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 15:25
Jefferson Starship's Freedom at Point Zero is an easy win for me against ANY Rush album.
 |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 15:29
If anyone's upset about being "Left Over" in this poll it'll be fans of Rush, who are currently seven votes behind Kansas.
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Posted By: mellotronwave
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 16:56
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 26 2024 at 23:07
| Toto IV just for Africa and Rosanna. Great songs for the time and still enjoy them. |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 06:45
Richard H, Swindon's closet 'yacht rock' fan... who knew? ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 07:07
I'm quite suprised too, as 2112 is generally definitely higher rated than Leftoverture. Personally, I surely don't find it as a worse album either, on the contrary, more artistically accomplished, and much more progressive.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 09:31
25 years ago, I would've voted for Rush. But the fact is Kansas was peaking (their first five albums are all standouts), while Rush had just started getting their bearings after a pastiche debut, a solid second album, and a third that finally revealed they were capable of more, though it still hadn't sold well enough to ensure their legacy. 2112 was their make-or-break album. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 09:40
By coincidence, I bought Hemispheres from a charity shop today, although at £2.49, I was in two minds whether to buy it or not.
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 10:29
Better two minds than two cheeks. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 10:31
Was it the remastered or original CD? ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 10:35
Cheeks and Balances. Now there's an idea for an album title, although I dread to think what the album cover would look like.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 10:40
Yes, it says "The Rush Remasters" on the inside label, so I'm assuming that's a good thing. I also saw REO Speedwagon's Greatest Hits on sale for 50p while I was out today, but I passed on that one.
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Posted By: Steve Wyzard
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 10:47
Currently on this site, 2112 is 4.11, while Leftoverture is 4.23. That being said, Leftoverture is a flawless album from beginning to end, while 2112 has a really good "Side 1" and a mostly laughable "Side 2".
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Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 10:52
Yes, the Remasters are far superior... well done! REO S did some good stuff until the mid 70's... ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 11:40
I'm sure Billy Sherwood can find a suitable AI-derived image, as that will be cheaper than paying somebody at Inside Out.  ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 13:55
The rating on PA is done by 2.395 ratings for 2112 and only 1.305 ratings for Leftoverture, and that's a very big difference. On RYM, it says: Leftoverture - 3.67 by 4.318 ratings 2112 - 3.78 by 15.399 ratings So the average, weighed rating on these two sites is significantly higher for 2112; plus it's done by much much higher number of ratings, and the usual is that the average gets lower with higher number of ratings. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 16:19
And the "laughable" part certainly doesn't look to be intersubjective, either; but okay, it's not like, I find 2112 very progressive. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 20:33
I've literally only heard this term in the last few weeks. Steely Dan's Gaucho was described as such by one of the Sea Of Tranquility mob on y/t and that was the first time I heard of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yacht_rock Swindon does have the erm famous Coate Water park where people come from miles around (sometimes as far as Wanborough and Royal Wootton Bassett) to visit.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 27 2024 at 20:41
I think you might have just disappeared up your own argument on that one. Read it a few times and it's still baffling me. Never been a massive fan of Leftoverture and generally prefer live versions of the best tracks. Magnum Opus is just plain nonsense. I thought that the very first time I heard it and still have not budged. 2112 is actually a well put together album. I enjoy Side Two a lot and wouldn't even consider it weaker than side one. I didn't vote for it as simply it doesn't belong on this poll. Kansas does. First 2 Kansas albums plus the last 2 and Somewhere To Elsewhere are the ones I really love by them. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 28 2024 at 07:38
Well, I don't understand that, but I have to tell about the average, weighed rating for both PA and RYM that I just estimated it in my head, and I didn't do it correctly - sorry about that. Now I've calculated it on a calculator, I have to say that the average rating is the same for both albums and being 3.8. Still though, the rating for 2112 is done by much much higher number of ratings, and it's much more difficult to get the same average with a much higher number of ratings; and if I had to rank these two albums on a toplist on basis of these ratings, I would give 2112 a much higher position. About Leftoverture, I can tell that I'm most impressed by the coverart.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 28 2024 at 08:27
| ^ yep great coverart, Kansas always had great covers! |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 28 2024 at 08:29
And Kerry, love this |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 28 2024 at 08:57
Funnily enough, I thought Rush were going to run away with this fourth Arena Rock poll. Wrong again.
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 28 2024 at 09:46
So you don't think, there's been enough discussion about this subject. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Octopus II
Date Posted: August 28 2024 at 09:54
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Rainbow - Long Live Rock 'N' Roll AC/DC - Powerage Rush - 2112 Kansas - Left Overture |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: August 28 2024 at 11:34
I'm with Rich on this... I really don't feel Rush belong with the other bands in this poll and as their albums progress, I'm sure they are going to dominate future polls, which would be a shame, especially considering you're only giving us one choice of band? Just my penneth worth... ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 28 2024 at 11:50
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Stylistically, I don't feel like The Who fit well on the whole despite how influential it was on many such bands of the AOR/pop rock/hard rock Arena Rock variety. Not saying it's wrong to include them and I can see why they would be in Arena Rock (as with bands like Led Zeppelin and The Rolling Stones). Rush in the late 80s would fit well, I think. Anyway, it's not a stylistically cohesive list, but cohesive in the sense that it has bands that have played arenas. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 28 2024 at 12:56
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Rainbow weren't AOR while Ronnie sang for them. Graham and Joe, that's a different tale of olde. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 28 2024 at 13:41
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^ It is often the case that bands present different styles throughout their careers. If doing a specific style, then it commonly makes sense to base it on the album, or track, rather than slotting in the whole discography. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 28 2024 at 14:04
I was happy to drop Loverboy from the poll earlier, but Rush are here to stay, just like Permanent Waves.
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 28 2024 at 15:14
In Blackmore's case, he was definitely following the money trail. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 02:51
I guess that the voting result of this poll reflects what looks to be an extraordinary popularity of Leftoverture on this site. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 03:02
Yes, it certainly looks that way. I'm guessing most of those eight votes would've gone to Rush if Kansas hadn't been in the poll.
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Posted By: Moonshake
Date Posted: August 29 2024 at 13:10
| Rolling Stones : Aftermath |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 30 2024 at 07:15
I like best  ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 31 2024 at 02:36
 |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: August 31 2024 at 03:52
You poll, Paul... your rules...  ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 31 2024 at 07:22
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I guess that the coverart of Song for America fits better the music. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 31 2024 at 13:14
The logo is badass. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 23 2024 at 07:23
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Long Live 2112 ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |