The British Punk Rock has in general not been very admired for its musical achievements, but I'm surely impressed by 

The Pistols album.

What's your opinion about it?

My favourite tracks are 'No Feelings' and 'Bodies'. 

I think I will give this album a spin now. 

I couldn't agree more. I've always hated Punk Rock and everything it stood for with vile angry youths banging bits of furniture together to make a horrendous racket. After all, it was punk that tried to destroy prog, but Punk Rock ending up in the dustbin of music history after barely three years, whereas Prog Rock is still going strong nearly half a century later. Vive La Prog, as we say in England.

It surely is. 

The British Punk Rock was not specifically anti-Prog but rejected all contemporary mainstream Rock, and especially the well-established part of it.

I don't even think, it was meant just like that by Malcolm McLaren.

I agree mostly with Saperlipopette! here.

I'd also say that the all-round sound on Never Mind... is really great and unique.

I thought so. 

I don't listen primarily to prog, never did, I do listen to prog bands from all decades, but I listen to other genres as well.  

If we're talking about the American Punk, then I find Marquee Moon to have very unique sound too, but still not quite as much 

as Never Mind.

What do you mean?! You quoted me, I thought you were talking to me. 

Now, I listened to it again and in fact, I'm amazed by how much variety they can get in all the songs when using

more or less the same formula.

That last sentence is unfair. Maybe some dislike punk because the music just does not speak to them in any way. 

The only good thing punk did was inspire other musicians to create new music, gave metal a boost, post punk is much more interesting. 

An album (and a genre obviously) that appeared at the right place and the right time, filled a void. Grunge & alternative did the same in the 90s. 

When talking about Ramones, frankly speaking, to me they're like Pop-Rock when comparing to the Punk Rock of Sex Pistols. 

The British Punk Rock was as much a social rebellion as a musical one - just very nihilistic.

I don't know what the expression "stuck in the mud" means. 

There's nothing wrong with escapism and there's nothing wrong with rebellion. 

I can respect, in retrospect, the rebellious nature of punk, but musically doesn't do much for me. I don't cringe if I hear it or am annoyed, but it's no fun for me to put it gently. 

That's good because I certainly won't say that the rebellious nature of Metal as a whole is of a better kind than the one of Punk.

 

This next generation of youth found the same thing in Punk that the audiences in The Cavern and the Star Club found with The Beatles and other early acts that were basically peddling the same brand of rebellion that punk repackaged. Music that was accessible to all who cared to seek it out.

It's all just rock 'n' Roll until it becomes to big for its own good.

 

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LOL(function(){var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'8339c368eea59809',t:'MTcwMjI1NjEzOS43NzEwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">

Depends on the band, on the subgenre. Plenty of metal is rebellious in a good way, many bands have great lyrics, from life's struggle to societal and political issues. So you are generalizing here. 

Also not all punk is great lyrically, so there you go...

If to look at it more exactly, the British Punk was a specific social rebellion as a reaction to specific social conditions in the mid-'70s Britain.

Yes, I was generalizing because so were you.

Can you tell me how was I generalizing? What was it that i said that was a generalization? 

I wouldn't go that far....

In a way, punk made perfect sense around 77/78 with the No Future slogan and my being 15/15 at the time. As most punk purists would tell you, that real punk started in August 76 in Mont De Marsan (French festival) and started dying in fall 77. 

I was in Toronto, living 30 m away from the lake (Ontario), and when The Clash was singing London's Drowning, and I live by the River (society is sinking, and me the first), it resonated heavily with me. 

London Calling, Outlandos d'Amour and a few more Pub/Punk albums (thinking of Stranglers & Dr Feelgood's first few) were all albums I kept for a while, and much later (82/83) The Jam's The Gift (which was more Ska by that time) and Violent Femmes's debut also rang true to me. I was also a bit into Jamaïcan reggae and some UK Ska bands, and there were links (thinking of Steel Pulse) around those years. The Ramones were also quite fun at the time.

Now of course, I disliked The Pistols' raucus. I witnessed a few Toronto local punk bands in the late 70's, and the vscene was vivid, as we even saw some of those black duffelcoat and army boots skinheads that were quite violent. When London sneezed, Toronto caught the flu. 

The Diodes were probably the better one and the worst was The Viletones (their singer Nazi Dog stabbed himself on stage with broken beer bottles). In between those extremes, Teenage Heads was definitely the one that broke big.

Agree 100%.

What(function(){var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'833fa700bd139664',t:'MTcwMjMxNzg5MC44MTMwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">

Thank You.

More correctly, I wasn't really generalizing, just compared the two genres as a whole, and it would be good if you had distinguished between the British and the American Punk, as there was a big difference in their character.

Why bring metal into this conversation? Is it just to pick a fight because you have not found your guy... 

Anyway, when talking about the rebellious nature in Sex Pistols' milestone of a Rock album:

It was very probably Rotten, as he was fond of a self-made T-shirt like that. On the other hand, one of his influences was Peter Hammill.

McLaren, Rhodes and the band began looking locally for a new member to assume the lead vocal duties. As described by Matlock, "Everyone had long hair then, even the milkman, so what we used to do was if someone had short hair we would stop them in the street and ask them if they fancied themselves as a singer. (...)  In August 1975, Rhodes spotted Lydon, then nineteen-year-old, wearing a Pink Floyd T-shirt with the words I Hate handwritten above the band's name and holes scratched through the Floyd members' eyes. Soon after, either Rhodes or McLaren asked Lydon to audition. During the session, Lydon improvised to Alice Cooper's "I'm Eighteen" on the Sex's jukebox. According to Jones, "he came in with green hair. I thought he had a really interesting face. I liked his look. He had the 'I Hate Pink Floyd' T-shirt on...held together with safety pins... he was a real arsehole—but smart."

So the "I hate Pink Floyd" T-shirt was a key qualification.

Being 15 in the summer of 1977 punk should have been "my music" but it didn't speak to me at all really. There was certainly plenty of energy and aggression but I thought it was musically not very interesting, nihilistic and aesthetically ugly. I wanted to be Keith Emerson or Jimmy Page, not the spotty green-haired herbert Johnny Rotten! Most of the prog musicians were pushing or past 30 by 1977 and a new generation had come along so it was time for one of the periodic resets. The punks couldn't say they were better musicians than the old guard so their USP was that they were more relevant and "street".

I always found it ironic that punk came along when there was an old school Labour left-wing government in power in the UK. If they'd left it a few more years they might have struggled to form bands as Maggie Thatcher would have had them on job creation schemes! In some ways I think punk was a precursor of Thatcherism with both attempting to blow away what was perceived as a dusty decaying old Britain, one from a youth/musical standpoint and the other in terms of politics and economics.

Punk died a fairly rapid death and morphed into new wave which was more arty and musically adventurous. I remember seeing Magazine on the Old Grey Whistle Test and thinking they sounded like a prog band under heavy sedation.

Never mind the bullocks, it's anarchy in the dairy farm... Who would've guessed the spotty green-haired herbert would end up selling Country Life butter to spread the cost of living, presumably because he kneaded the bread. It can't be good for his Public Image though. 

I wouldn't necessarily interpret the quoted in that way, but rejection of the well-established Rock bands was definitely one of the main characteristics of the British Punk Rock movement.

there's still a competition?!  I didn't know that (I doubt it though )

Just a new true dinosaur. 

According to RYM statistics, just about 6000 Punk releases in 2023, which is much more than Progressive Rock releases.

I'm afraid, so it is  

Who says it's a competition? 

Who cares about RYM statistics?! How is this relevant, in a positive way? 

^ I misunderstood you.

ok 

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Mass media is guilty to encourage such rivalries, maybe they would sell more magazines (in the past), get more views (remember MTV?), or get clicks these days.

 I remember an interview with Nirvana in which the reviewer was baiting Kurt and the guys to mock glam metal bands, which in the end they did. There was also the Kurt-Axl rivalry which MTV and the musical press encouraged for profit. 

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The original Nirvana...

...and something that Smells Like Nirvana...

You are right. But the mocking of the '80s glam metal was often not deserved. Some bands were dropped by labels, some bands releasing music did not get any help with promotion, add the mockery from the music media, it must have been hard for quite a few musicians. It was not just glam that fell on hard times, but metal in general (and that's just ignorance if you ask me). Many bands did not know what to do next after 1991-92, they either became less heavy (and at times more commercial) or followed the trends of the times, often with not good results. 

I (function(){var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'8347a7aa3824964b',t:'MTcwMjQwMTgwNC4wNjEwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">

I was talking about undeserved backlash and mockery. 

Yes, there were glam bands that were awful (but so were awful alternative bands in the 90s as well), that scene would have imploded sooner or later anyway, big labels milked that scene too death (which they will do the same with grunge and alternative a few years later). 

A lot of bands changed sound in their attempt to stay relevant, attract a new audience, follow trends try to stay "fresh". The results were mixed (to put it gently). 

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If I made such a list, it would look different and someone would say some bands in there are not so bad. 

Twisted Sister would make my list of the five worst Hair Metal bands of all time. They're so bad that they're almost good. 

They didn't attract an audience because they used to play something different and went with the grungy alternative sound, which a lot of people found rather ridiculous. 

Even Kiss did a grunge album, which was initially shelved but in the end released, maybe, maybe it would make some money. 

For example Winger and Cinderella released really good albums in the 90s ('93-'94), both went unnoticed, they are getting some respect these days. And they were not the only ones. 

very interesting  

+/-  my take on things as well. 

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Some very interesting stuff in there and I can relate.

However I never felt the same about the so called 'New Wave' scene. The original punk bands were the best. The Damned, The Stranglers (although barely a punk band) The Clash, Siouxsie and The Banshees, Pistols and maybe The Jam. They had the energy and I liked it. Never loved it though and as you say it had nowhere to go. I didn't listen to much prog other than ELP at the time. Genesis sounded bland while Floyd were boring and Yes were just strange. I didn't find a whole lot to sink my teeth into at the time. I think by the 80's I was independent enough just to listen to whatever I fancied and gravitated to Kate Bush, Mike Oldfield Tangerine Dream, Vangelis, Al Stewart and actually liked a lot of 'New Age'. The rock scene mostly passed me by. I liked Iron Maiden and could see a point to them but not a lot else around tickled my fancy. U2 were just horrid to my ears and I couldn't stand the plastic production of so much music that was being pumped out. Roll on the 90's!

I don't think, it was accidental that the punk rebellion came close after the '60s counterculture, even the early '80s had their squatter movement where, I think, Punk was quite popular too. 

Some more of Never Mind the Bollocks... and the time:

Yeah, it's a pretty creative one, even I might find it more vulgar than funny. 

And definitely not as funny as Glam Metal.